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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?      Home login  
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 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 4201
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?Page 169 of 203    (163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203)

And these ?

" (i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons; (ii) chemtrails; (iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems; (iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons; (v) laser weapons systems; (vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and (vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons."


I thought all that ^^^ was just conspiracy theories???


Ummmm... The ones that were called "conspiracy theories" still are...

Crap! I love my conspiracy theories! But dang it! I want them to stay just...theories!

I think you can safely put that "Crap!"... back where it should be... Your still good on that count...

Dang government better not come out and tell me Aliens are real next! Sheesh!

Ummm... They pretty much already have... I really don't see how you could have missed that...

I know... I know... words are just not enough... so maybe this will help you recover from that... "close call"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5-J-C4R6Xw
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 4202
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 5:11:11 AM
To quote chameleonf, b/c she raised an interesting point:

"Given the stats in the following article, it would appear that the U.S. drug epidemic has far more to do with the ambiguous stats provided in Oren Cass' article cited above attempting to relate mortality to the ACA: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/05/upshot/opioid-epidemic-drug-overdose-deaths-are-rising-faster-than-ever.html?mcubz=1 "

Also, from someone less right wing than National Review:

https://media.jamanetwork.com/news-item/contribution-opioid-related-deaths-change-life-expectancy-u-s/

"While Republicans in Congress weren’t able to defund Obamacare, many Republicans at the state level have found a different way to block low-income Americans from receiving cheaper health insurance. An estimated eight million Americans will remain poor and uninsured even after Obamacare is rolled out, due to the decision of many Republican governors and state legislators to reject the Affordable Care Act’s expansion of Medicaid."

"In total, 26 states have rejected the expansion, including the state of Mississippi, which has the highest rate of uninsured poor people in the country. Sixty-eight percent of uninsured single mothers live in the states that rejected the expansion, as do 60 percent of the nation’s uninsured working poor.
In general, states that rejected the expansion also have stricter eligibility requirements for Medicaid. While the 24 states that agreed to expand the program have a median income limit of $12,200 for Medicaid applicants, the limit is $5,600 —less than half the federal poverty level — in the states that rejected it."

https://www.bustle.com/articles/6227-gop-governors-reject-obamacares-medicaid-expansion-millions-to-stay-uninsured-as-result

>>>Seems like there was more to the story than a Republican slant against ACA?

"Dang government better not come out and tell me Aliens are real next!"

>>>I know one political party who believes all of America's problems can be blamed on those darn aliens. Thankfully, Mexico will pay for a wall to keep them out.
 Kj521
Joined: 11/16/2016
Msg: 4203
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 5:37:02 AM
"Ummmm... The ones that were called "conspiracy theories" still are..."

How much time do you think I got, Joe, before they're not? :/



"I think you can safely put that "Crap!"... back where it should be... Your still good on that count..."

Think you and I might define "safely" differently. Besides....words of wisdom from Nana..."There's more room outside than there is inside." And you'd be surprised...that can apply to a lot of things. ;)



"Ummm... They pretty much already have... I really don't see how you could have missed that..."

I did miss this!!! How is that possible? Was the "shapeshifters"? Or..the "reptilian" ones? Oh no! Please don't say it was "shapeshifting reptilians"! I'll never be able to look at my beloved "alligators" the same again! :O



"I know... I know... words are just not enough... so maybe this will help you recover from that... "close call"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5-J-C4R6Xw"


That is a lovely song, Joe. Finally...something we can agree on. The World does need more love! And I think no one more so than you!

Should we start tonight? ;) ;)

https://youtu.be/x1QgwXpJM1A

Or...it could end up being a heartache tonight. One never knows. Gotta take the good with the bad when it comes to...love!

https://youtu.be/_XkU893wCUw
 LLove2LaughToo
Joined: 6/6/2016
Msg: 4204
Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 6:39:27 AM

Msg: 4200
Yikes, I thought John would have rushed in here to have a fit about Trump's son-in-law and private email site usage. Lock him up!! Come on John.


He is probably too busy comforting himself with the Fidget Spinner he received from Steve Bannon from Breitbart, and trying to justify Comrade Trump lies, untruths, exaggerations, flat-out falsehoods and broken promises.

MAGA – Morons Are Governing America.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 4205
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 11:18:29 AM
And now for something completely different...during a historical tour of a cemetary, I was discussing with the lecturer about where Sears and Roebuck would be if it had simply gone on line like Amazon:

"Mail was an internet before the internet. After the Civil War, several new communications and transportations systems—the telegraph, rail, and parcel delivery—made it possible to shop at home and have items delivered to your door. Americans browsed catalogues on their couches for jewelry, food, and books. Merchants sent the parcels by rail.
From its founding in the late 19th century to its world-famous catalog, the history of Sears, Roebuck & Company is well known. Less storied is its magnificently successful transition from a mailing company to a brick-and-mortar giant. Like Amazon among its online-shopping rivals, Sears was not the country’s first mail-order retailer, but it became the largest of its kind. Like Amazon, it started with a single product category—watches, rather than books. But, like Amazon, the company grew to include a range of products, including guns, gramophones, cars, and even groceries.
From the start, Sears’s genius was to market itself to consumers as an everything store, with an unrivaled range of products, often sold for minuscule profits. The company’s feel for consumer demand was so uncanny, and its operations so efficient, that it became, for many of its diehard customers, not just the best retail option, but the only one worth considering."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/history-of-sears-predicts-nearly-everything-amazon-is-doing/ar-AAsqMrz?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Sears went from knocking out local ma and pa's, then pulling a WalMArt on Woolworths and Montgomery Ward and other chains, to anchor stores in malls that took the rest of business out of main street, to getting their clock cleaned by online. I know SS454 doesn't like it when I post, "change is a-comin, chil'uns", but....its an interesting article.
 LLove2LaughToo
Joined: 6/6/2016
Msg: 4206
Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 12:08:21 PM
Republicans are "so concerned" (like sharks smelling blood a mile away) about Sen. McCain's health that they are asking Arizona for a "recall" due to his cancer diagnosis.


GOP rep calls for McCain 'recall' amid cancer diagnosis

GOP Rep. Louie Gohmert on Monday urged Arizona to "recall" Sen. John McCain amid his recent brain cancer diagnosis, while criticizing his Republican colleague for going back on his 2016 campaign vow to repeal ObamaCare.

“[McCain] is one of those that said I will repeal—if he had said last year what he was going to do,” he would have lost, Gohmert, R-Texas, said on “Fox & Friends” early Monday.

“Nothing inhibits recovery from cancer like stress. I think Arizona could help him, and us. Recall him, let him fight successfully this terrible cancer, and let’s get someone in here who will keep the word he gave last year.”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/09/25/gop-rep-calls-for-mccain-recall-amid-cancer-diagnosis-obamacare-repeal-fight.html


MAGA – Morons Are Governing America.
 poppata
Joined: 8/6/2017
Msg: 4207
Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 12:26:00 PM
^^^^ Too late anyway. By the end of this week, if they try to repeal, they will need sixty votes, not only fifty. And by the time they could recall McCain which will never happen, he will already have passed on.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 4208
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 12:40:45 PM

Republicans are "so concerned" (like sharks smelling blood a mile away) about Sen. McCain's health that they are asking Arizona for a "recall" due to his cancer diagnosis.

He's got far more functioning brain cells while battling brain cancer than the majority of the rest of his party (most particularly Trump).
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 4209
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 3:53:29 PM
From BBI's posted piece:




Advocates of the program inside and outside the administration say refugees are a major benefit to the United States, paying more in taxes than they consume in public benefits,
That's interesting, but I really have a hard time believing it. Could be I am not familiar with the educational and skill profile of the average refugee to the U.S. though. If most of them are relatively unskilled, I just can't see how this statement is true. I mean, just healthcare, likely Medicaid, costs taxpayers a bundle.


and filling jobs in service industries that others will not.
In other words, low pay jobs "Americans don't want." Sure, Americans don't want them at the wages offered. So wages are kept low.

All said, I doubt this study takes into account the economic effects and costs to taxpayers of native workers displaced.......those Americans who don't want those jobs "Americans don't want".....and thus don't work and are on the public service dole.

Now, if someone were really honest and just said "Refugees are thankful for being in the free U.S., and eager to take ANY crap job, at ANY wage.....and thus add energy to the economy .... to the detriment of native American workers and the benefit of profit and business interests," ...........then I WOULD agree with that, because it's the truth.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 4210
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 4:03:22 PM
GTO wrote:


Sears went from knocking out local ma and pa's, then pulling a WalMArt on Woolworths and Montgomery Ward and other chains, to anchor stores in malls that took the rest of business out of main street, to getting their clock cleaned by online. I know SS454 doesn't like it when I post, "change is a-comin, chil'uns", but....its an interesting article.
Sure. I generally don't like change that leverages communism/authoritarianism to cut out the free American middle class. Communism and authoritarianism is OK when it provides cheap labor. Why did we fight all these stupid wars against authoritarianism when we partner up with them to gut our own "free" economy?

Authoritarians are fine (China, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, etc.) when they enable Multinationals to make more money, but they're bad boogiemen when they won't kneel and suck our **** i.e., N. Korea, Russia, Cuba etc.

Personally, at this point, I'd rather have Russia hacking our elections because all it does is foil those who are already hacking it, which is financial and big business interests.
 Kj521
Joined: 11/16/2016
Msg: 4211
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 4:24:04 PM
"change is a-comin, chil'uns", but....its an interesting article."

Here's another interesting article for you, Mr. Gto...from a different perspective.



"Why "Populism" Is Here To Stay"

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-24/why-populism-here-stay
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 4212
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 5:48:50 PM

Sure, Americans don't want them at the wages offered. So wages are kept low.


they are kept low for a reason...not too many pple will wanna pay triple or quadruple for supermarket produce picked by union employees....assuming you can find US citizens who aspire to be produce pickers.


All said, I doubt this study takes into account the economic effects and costs to taxpayers of native workers displaced


You'd first have to find and identify "native" workers who were directly displaced as a result of undocumented workers taking their spot...this is something that is hard to do in the landscaping business...or in the restaurant business.

But you know its funny that nobody ever talks about PENALIZING employers who hire these undocumented workers (who are supposedly STEALING valuable jobs from US natives); who without them, we would hardly have a fraction of the undocumented workers we have now.


all it does is foil those who are already hacking it,


no hacking needs to be done by them....they have direct access to our elected leaders
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 4213
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 7:27:08 PM
"""But you know its funny that nobody ever talks about PENALIZING employers who hire these undocumented workers """

a lot of people talk about that.


As I said before,

1st offense, warning

2nd offense, $10,000 fine per illegal

3rd offense, civil forfeiture. The People of the United States own your business.


Also, it is incorrect to assume that jobs and positions will go unfilled if illegals are kept out and to think that that illegals only take fruit picking low wage jobs.
I guess some people like near slave wages for illegals. As long as they are not "us."
But then I heard a liberal say today that it is too bad if a person making $55,000 per year has a $500 per month health insurance premium. even if before the ACA it was $250.
So, maybe it is not surprising.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 4214
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 8:07:46 PM
^


a lot of people talk about that.


They are?.
The GOP controls the house and the WH...and all I've heard was:
-build a wall (that costs billions)
-kick out illegals

I've yet to hear anybody in the GOP talk about fining businesses that hire illegals...but if you have sources, I'd like to see it.


1st offense, warning

2nd offense, $10,000 fine per illegal

3rd offense, civil forfeiture. The People of the United States own your business.


yah....keep pipe dreaming!... If you expect to see this ^ coming from a GOP led house


it is incorrect to assume that jobs and positions will go unfilled if illegals are kept out


I agree, but they'll have to pay them a helluva LOT more...which means the costs are gonna be passed down to you and your loved ones!....see what big businesses feel about doing that?


I guess some people like near slave wages for illegals.


Yep..it must be them same business owners who have companies that hire them...and their paid off politicians who have "looked the other way".
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 4215
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/25/2017 8:22:12 PM
Yule Liquor says:


they are kept low for a reason...not too many pple will wanna pay triple or quadruple for supermarket produce picked by union employees....assuming you can find US citizens who aspire to be produce pickers.
First of all, Yule, I thought Democrats were supposed to be pro-union. Silly me to think that. Or maybe quaint. After all, times are a changin' per GTO....and I need to git withit....and get with the program and understand modern Dems are lockstep with hedge funds.

But I suspect wages are "kept low for a reason" to keep big agribusiness/Wall Street profits growing as opposed to "triple or quadruple" prices for produce. And to keep the power in executive suites instead of sharing with the factory floor or fields. And again.......US citizens would be glad to pick anything that grows on a tree, vine, stalk or whatever if the pay is high enough.

Let the "free market" work. Raise wages to attract American workers, and sure, maybe CEOs would make less money. Oh, the outrage!!! to suggest Execs or shareholders make less!!!! Of course, that idea is untenable, so this same group that generally wants government to "get out of the way" will call on "big government" to relax immigration quotas to keep wages low so said exorbitant CEO salaries/bonuses continue as additional new homes in Aspen and yachts in Newport Beach await


You'd first have to find and identify "native" workers who were directly displaced as a result of undocumented workers taking their spot...this is something that is hard to do in the landscaping business...or in the restaurant business.
I don't think it would be hard to do at all. Just go out to the next landscaping crew you see, or restaurant kitchen, and ask if they're legal or not. Every one that is illegal is taking a job from a legal American. You'd probably find more illegal immigrants on these crews than you realize.


But you know its funny that nobody ever talks about PENALIZING employers who hire these undocumented workers (who are supposedly STEALING valuable jobs from US natives); who without them, we would hardly have a fraction of the undocumented workers we have now.
Actually penalizing employers is one of the solution I support...I don't support mass deportation or a silly wall. And I do support Dem style immigration reform regarding those already here. But I diverge on continuing to allow the amount of unskilled immigrants we do now. I support sending more immigration raids (sounds bad, I know) to businesses and frogmarching executives of those business out in handcuffs if they are found guilty of hiring illegal immigrants.


no hacking needs to be done by them....they have direct access to our elected leaders
Sure. But I guess my point is.....take a look at the Washington our "legal" hackers, big business and finance has brought us. Great job, huh? I don't think the Russians can do much worse, so I don't worry about it, and actually think it's a positive if they can disrupt the corporate stranglehold on Washington. Just another boogieman to distract everyone while Wall Street continues to pick our pockets.
 LLove2LaughToo
Joined: 6/6/2016
Msg: 4216
Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 12:39:22 AM
Lock her up, lock her up, lock her up!!!

MAGA – Morons Are Governing America.


IVANKA TRUMP USED A PERSONAL EMAIL ACCOUNT FOR GOVERNMENT WORK

Ivanka Trump, the first daughter and adviser to the president, used a personal email address to communicate with a government official after her father took office, according to documents that the nonprofit American Oversight obtained through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) and shared exclusively with Newsweek.

The news that Trump used a personal email address for government work follows the disclosure on Sunday that Jared Kushner—Trump’s husband and a senior adviser to President Donald Trump—also used a personal email address for official work. That disclosure was made by Abbe Lowell, a lawyer for Kushner.

“Yet again we see that there’s one rule for the Trump family and another for everyone else,” Austin Evers, the executive director of American Oversight and a former senior counsel at the Department of State, said in a statement to Newsweek.

“It’s simply breathtaking that both Ivanka and Jared Kushner would conduct government [work] on a personal email account after running a campaign centered on that very issue. The fact that they would brazenly ignore rules governing email use raises even more questions about their judgement and fitness to hold positions in the White House.”

http://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-trump-personal-email-account-white-house-670700
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 4217
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 5:51:48 AM
SS454, the proposal is that refugees tend to be working age, decently educated, pay sales tax, gas tax, etc while they are here and may be denied access to some services during their initial stay when they can't find jobs, but then find jobs and may have traveled here with their nuclear family and thus get more support from within. Some may return to their homeland before collecting SS.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4056060/Refugee-Report-Draft.pdf

But logically, I don't blame you for wondering how it works. As for "jobs Americans don't want" (like say owning gas stations or fast food franchise?) , I'll mention some jobs replaced by a cellphone or a credit card. Watch a TV show like Mad Men first season, and notice the telephone operators a big business had, copy boys, typists, filers, mailroom boys, etc. Our cellphones handle that work now. Do you buy gas with a credit card? Use the computerized self serve register at Home Despot? Order by phone thru a menu? Use a kiosk for tickets? ATM? These used to be "outlets" for an unskilled workforce. Now where can they work?

SS454, you're right about buying union pay products. How many of us shop WalMart? Do we do it b/c its cheaper? In the world of cars, people buy replacement parts that are cheaper...and not made here. I'm sure the same is true in other fields.

KJ, that's an interesting article. After WW2, America was in the lead. Why? b/c the competitors had been blown apart by war and their labor force was dead. Europe turned to its colonies to raise money, and the result was a bunch of liberation wars. The Communists saw an opportunity to get in on that. We refused to support when it happened in Suez Canal, but Vietnam? Dictators in Latin America? Africa? We got selective real quick.

What created a middle class? One thing was the unions that Republicans got rid of. Another was inner city government jobs, which have been portrayed as lazy people with too many benefits, and as factories left the cities, there isn't a tax base to afford it. Then recently there were the Bush recessions that attacked home ownership (S&L fail, underwater mortgages, etc), the biggest investment of the middle class. They lose a house, they lose the Cadillac health care plan they used to have at a job now being done by a computer, and now the GOP wants to lower taxes for the rich rather than help out the middle class. So what will happen to the middle class? Well, what happened after 1929? Great Recession and the Dustbowl? what was the solution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 4218
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 6:26:42 AM
@ 4215


First of all, Yule, I thought Democrats were supposed to be pro-union. Silly me to think that.


Its one thing to be pro-union...and its a whole other thing to see unions take an employer/company to the "cleaners".
one quick example was that of GM where they were paying guys on the assembly line doing minor chores (screwing on lug nuts or tightening screws/bolts) at about 30-50$/hr



But I suspect wages are "kept low for a reason" to keep big agribusiness/Wall Street profits growing as opposed to "triple or quadruple" prices for produce.


most agribusinesses are mechanized...that is how they really save money...but some jobs require manual labor.
they would much rather use mechanization if they could, than pay an illegal (as low as) $ 10/hr...because if you have a whole group of pple doing the picking, it adds up to a good deal of money.

So now imagine having to pay a legal citizen $40/hr plus benefits...who is unionized...ya think the company is gonna be the ones taking a loss?


US citizens would be glad to pick anything that grows on a tree, vine, stalk or whatever if the pay is high enough.


sure, I'd take the job if they paid me $50/hr with good benefits and vacation...but with a squad of workers being paid as much....you'd now be paying $10 dollars for a bag of carrots (that now cost you $2.99).

See how that will go over with the public


the outrage!!! to suggest Execs or shareholders make less!!!! Of course, that idea is untenable, so this same group that generally wants government to "get out of the way" will call on "big government" to relax immigration quotas to keep wages low so said exorbitant CEO salaries/bonuses continue as additional new homes in Aspen and yachts in Newport Beach await


so now you see why the system is better of the way it is now...because no matter what you do; these guys will still be raking in big bucks...the only ones to lose out will be the public due to higher prices that are passed on to them


Just go out to the next landscaping crew you see, or restaurant kitchen, and ask if they're legal or not. Every one that is illegal is taking a job from a legal American. You'd probably find more illegal immigrants on these crews than you realize.


sure, you could do that and I'm sure there are many illegals
but then tell the boss to fire them and replace them with legal citizens...and then see what the cost of an appetizer or an entree will now be at this restaurant....then see what the patrons do.....the public will not pay $ 100 dollars for a soda, a salad and an entree.

as customers dwindle...the business will close down....just as GM did in lower NY, when their plant operations cut to deep into their profits, and could not re-negotiate with unions.


Actually penalizing employers is one of the solution I support.


that isn't likely to happen...especially by the GOP


I don't think the Russians can do much worse, so I don't worry about it, and actually think it's a positive if they can disrupt the corporate stranglehold on Washington.


the goal of big business...is to make business more profitable
the goal of Russia is to destabilize every aspect of this society & gov't as much as possible...much as they tried to do during the cold war, but couldn't do it...but now they are winning in the cyber war arena.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 4219
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 9:14:06 AM
GTO:

SS454, the proposal is that refugees tend to be working age, decently educated, pay sales tax, gas tax, etc while they are here and may be denied access to some services during their initial stay when they can't find jobs, but then find jobs and may have traveled here with their nuclear family and thus get more support from within. Some may return to their homeland before collecting SS.
Thanks for that. I have no problem believing that immigrants add to the "dynamism" of our economy. Of course, they add energy, creativity and enthusisasm since many are thankful to be here. My problem is what do we do with those they displace? Those native workers who maybe are not as bright, energetic, young, or yes, spoiled? We need to do something with them. After all, they are battling technology as you point out, as well as immigrants as competitors for jobs.

One needs to look no further than the construction or meat packing industry to see the problem. Sure, immigrants inundating those industries maybe has led to better workers at lower wages and thus lower prices for products for consumers, but where do the displaced workers go? They go nowhere and vote for Trump, that's where they go. And it's not like we were having problems with construction prices or meat prices spiraling when all those native workers, some in unions, were working in those industries. It's like even Dems now share the Milton Friedmanseque belief that every job should go down to the lowest common denominator, instead of being a job that someone can support a family on. Phooey.

WE can go round and round, GTO, but the net net I see with your view (and most other Dem type posters on this board BTW) is........."The world's moving on, the rest of the world is catching up, tough bleep!" Fair enough, but when someone "catches up," others "fall behind." That's the definition of "catching up." Guess who is "falling behind?" And Trump voters, as maligned for their intelligence as they are, can understand that.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 4220
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 9:29:12 AM
I hear you, as far as the problem of the "left behinds" is concerned. Of course, its a historical problem. When we went from horses to cars, blacksmiths et al got left behind. When we left the great wars, those who produced the tools of war had to find something else. These are skilled workers, where do they go? When cellphones replace operators, when the camera in that cellphone runs Eastman Kodak out of business, when a swipe card replaces a gas pump attendant, when farm machinery makes it possible to farm where the soil is thin and a Dust Bowl occurs...these former workers don't just die off or disappear into a closet. There used to be a theory/dark joke about when China reached a maximum population (mostly male due to their policy about daughters), the solution for them was to go to war against someone and kill down the number.

Ironically, if we did find work for all these people? They'd flood every market with their income, and prices would inflate to compensate. Unless government forced down prices and cause shortages as a result. What we get now, however, is people who can't afford the basics b/c they're losing hours at the factory, shopping at WalMart b/c that's what they can afford, to buy products that...well, you can guess where the perpetual cycle leads.

We're in a zero sum game. In the 1950's companies had 50% tax bracket and a high number of employees...but they didn't have other countries competing since we bombed their factories and railroads. Now the corporations have lower tax brackets, fewer employees, more competitors, and the big problem isn't to penalize the companies hiring those illegals, but...how do we cut corporate taxes even lower so they can bring their foreign profits home to America? And what will they do with all that money, will they invest in their factories to get rid of automation and go backwards just for the benefit of the workers...or will they use all those profits to buy other companies and probably slim down the workstaff there, too?
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 4221
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 9:33:14 AM
For those who support legalizing or making a "path" for those illegallyhere:

Won't that, like Reagan's amnesty, just encourage more to come illegally or overstay a Visa?

bring a kid and you really have it made.

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so are you saying, gto, that an american in that job would not also pay taxes, etc?

Talking about jobs that are replaced by technology does support not filling the jobs that remain with countymen.

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many people would pay more for a tomato if it means jobs for americans.
it enhances the way of life all around.

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on the employers, it is interesting under the daca that the employers of these people ate not question. weren't they also given a "hire an illegal" waiver?
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 4222
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 9:40:29 AM
There are/were job openings to the tune of 6.2 million, at least in June 2017: http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/08/news/economy/job-openings-record-high/index.html

It would appear to be a multi-faceted dilemma but one not necessarily to be blamed on immigrants "taking" jobs of natural born citizens as far too many are so quick to blame. As GTO so often says, people need to be prepared to change with the times/job needs. Unfortunately, you have this from the same link:

President Trump hopes to fill some of those open jobs by investing more in apprenticeship programs, which tend to be located at offices or factories. Administration officials announced in June they would put $200 million toward ApprenticeshipUSA, a grant program, using already-allocated Labor Department funds.

However, Trump's proposed budget seeks to significantly cut funding for job training programs that offer more classroom-based learning.

The budget would reduce funding for job training by $1.1 billion, or 40%. U.S. officials say job training programs have had checkered success. Some programs considered to be thriving are asking the administration to reconsider.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 4223
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 9:58:19 AM
not everyone needs to be a pencil pusher.

a country can't survive without repairmen, blue collar workers, etc.


i can see an accountant or lawyer today.

it will take a few days to get plumber or pipefitter for work.


when canada stops policies discouraging immigration or putting people in tents at the border, you may have a point.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 4224
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 10:07:16 AM
Knew I shouldn't have dropped in here. Yule and GTO know they can throw out some catnip for me.....Good discussion though!!

Yule wrote:


Its one thing to be pro-union...and its a whole other thing to see unions take an employer/company to the "cleaners".
one quick example was that of GM where they were paying guys on the assembly line doing minor chores (screwing on lug nuts or tightening screws/bolts) at about 30-50$/hr
And those days were the best overall for our economy. How can that be 'splained? Other than the post WW2 boom.... Of course, I agree that jobs like these couldn't last forever. However, I believe the pendulum must swing back and forth between worker power and corporate power. We're way to far out to the end of the spectrum where corporations have all the power. And instead of advancing policies that try to force that pendulum back to more worker power, bought and paid for lackeys in Washington just want to give even more power to corporations under the scam of "business friendly" or "tax reform." In my view, there is only one way to bring the economy back to balance and that is to give workers more power. And it will need to be forced up the rear end, with no lubricant, of business interests like FDR did. Anything else is a giveaway to profit interests/Wall Street.


most agribusinesses are mechanized...that is how they really save money...but some jobs require manual labor.
they would much rather use mechanization if they could, than pay an illegal (as low as) $ 10/hr...because if you have a whole group of pple doing the picking, it adds up to a good deal of money.

So now imagine having to pay a legal citizen $40/hr plus benefits...who is unionized...ya think the company is gonna be the ones taking a loss?
So are you saying it would take $40 + benefits to get lazy Americans out to the fields? Hmmmm.....may not take that much. Either way, I can't fathom your argument, that it takes someone here, committing a crime, being illegal and all, to make an economy work. I never read that in business school books. Of course I studied that back in the day...sadly, would not surprise me if MBA schools teach upcoming execs how to hire illegals. Or to evade taxes. But I digress.


sure, I'd take the job if they paid me $50/hr with good benefits and vacation...but with a squad of workers being paid as much....you'd now be paying $10 dollars for a bag of carrots (that now cost you $2.99).

See how that will go over with the public
I am not sure if the impact would be that much. THere are plenty of studies that say not, as well as say what you say...depends on who's funding the study I guess. But the net-net is....back in the day when Ag workers made more $$$ relative to average wage, and were unionized, I don't think we were starving due to high food prices, were we? My personal belief (which is admittedly dangerous) is the true cost of employing illegal and other immigrants in Ag is hidden because those costs are offloaded to the taxpayer (social services,healthcare, bilingual education for the kids, etc. etc.) while the execs make off with yachts and jets. And yea, maybe we get a cheaper carrot out of the deal, but pay higher taxes (or tack onto the deficit) to support social services etc. for those immmigrants.


so now you see why the system is better of the way it is now...because no matter what you do; these guys will still be raking in big bucks...the only ones to lose out will be the public due to higher prices that are passed on to them
No I do not understand.
And the corporate elite makes many multiples more now vis a vis workers as they used to. You happy with that? I mean, it's really no secret of what's driving inequality these daze. It really isn't if you take a look and don't believe the propaganda driven mainly by profit interests that both corporate-puppet parties spout.


sure, you could do that and I'm sure there are many illegals
but then tell the boss to fire them and replace them with legal citizens...and then see what the cost of an appetizer or an entree will now be at this restaurant....then see what the patrons do.....the public will not pay $ 100 dollars for a soda, a salad and an entree.
Again, the true cost of hiring illegal workers is at least partially hidden because the gov picks up much of that cost (See above). Again I ask...so don't you think something is wrong with an economy if it depends on illegal immigrant workers? What is the purpose of borders then? May as well have open borders!


as customers dwindle...the business will close down....just as GM did in lower NY, when their plant operations cut to deep into their profits, and could not re-negotiate with unions.
Sure, recalcitrant unions were partially the cause of the downfall of the Big 3. However, so was unfair trade policy that continues to this day. Anyone who thinks Japanese automakers beat the big 3 solely because of their products is just believing anti-union propaganda that it was the unions' fault.



that isn't likely to happen...especially by the GOP
Well, it didn't happen under the Dems, either. They both know where their campaign contributions come from.



the goal of big business...is to make business more profitable
Proof that the ghost of Milton Friedman has stolen the soul of the Dems.


the goal of Russia is to destabilize every aspect of this society & gov't as much as possible...much as they tried to do during the cold war, but couldn't do it...but now they are winning in the cyber war arena.
Sure, just taking tactics from our own book. How many countries have we destabilized in our relatively short history? So it's OK that we destabilize any country of our choosing...mainly weaklings...while it's not OK for Russia to do the same? Gotta give it to Russia, though...cojones for ****ing with the good ol U.S.A........lol...while our tricks are mainly reserved for poor defensless, backward nations.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 4225
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Will President Elect Donald Trump Last The Full 4 Years?
Posted: 9/26/2017 11:00:07 AM

when canada stops policies discouraging immigration or putting people in tents at the border, you may have a point.

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants but unskilled U.S. workers claiming their jobs are being taken by immigrants when such is not necessarily the case, but rather an unwillingness to retrain to seek an alternative job as times change and job openings are created and which don't involve the vegetable/fruit picker rhetoric. I'm a proponent of legal immigration at the same time as being a proponent of highly vetted asylum/refugee management, with your Dreamers being a separate issue. Because I disagree with you on most issues, particularly those which are blatantly bigoted, does not mean I disagree with all, just mostly. With respect to the tent cities at the Quebec/U.S. border, this will provide you with more clarity: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/10/542589246/canadas-army-builds-tent-camp-for-haitian-asylum-seekers-arriving-from-u-s
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