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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > There's no such thing as an "atheist."      Home login  
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 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 201
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History
There's no such thing as an atheist.Page 9 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
To restate what I said in another way:

Actually, based on his actions and (later) views on christianity & religion as a whole, there is more evidence that supports that he BECAME (or evolved) into an Atheist.

Hitler was the god at the center of a religion. The religion which took the name Nazism. So to say that he was theistic or atheistic either doesn't even apply or applies in a funny way.

It'd be kinda dumb to look at the Christian god and say that he is atheistic because he is against, or doesn't subscribe to, any (other) religion other than that which stems from himself.

You have to know what really makes a religion a religion.

The erroneous practice is to look for the presence or absence of things like Christianity, Islam, Scientology, or whatever. But that just leads to a big fail. Using the proper framework, it is revealed that to say Nazism opposes Christianity, for example, is the same as saying that Islam opposes Christianity. Or any two religions you'd care to name. So again, Hitler and Nazism wasn't religious or not religious based on the presence or absence of anything like Christianity...it was a religion itself.

You don't look as a Christian at Islam and say that Islam is atheistic because it isn't Christianity. Likewise, you cannot look at Nazism, which was just another religion, and call it atheistic because it isn't Christianity. A Christian may disagree with that different religion, but it's still a matter of the two both being religions. And for that matter, you cannot determine the legitimacy of one religion over another from within religion, but only from without...from a non-religious standpoint.
 wolfman4142
Joined: 12/20/2016
Msg: 202
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/7/2017 2:40:01 AM

What I stated adds up to how he expressed his hate and disdain for anything christian; the fact that he was endowed (as a child) to Catholicism had nothing to do with his hateful evolution, as it obviously is not part of the religious (written doctrine). To say otherwise would as absurdly stupid as saying that Ted Bundy (serial killer) was in someway influenced by his early methodist upbringing, and also for Jeffrey Dahmer, who was brought up in a fundamentalist CHristain household as a youngster.


First of all we can't read minds and have no choice but to take a person's belief at their word. Even you admitted that you agreed that all faith and non faith is capable of heinous acts. Didn't the pope hide the child molesters after the fact? So there was evidence that the cover up went all the way to the top. That being the case how is it that you'd deny any responsibility to the sect itself?


Actually, based on his actions and (later) views on christianity & religion as a whole, there is more evidence that supports that he BECAME (or evolved) into an Atheist.


Not being christian doesn't make an atheist. Bad actions and behavior doesn't make a non-christian. That's what is just flying over your head.


Exactly, he was atheistic (in actual existence and personification); it is not something he proclaimed because he realized that it WOULD NOT GO OVER very well with a German public that was either Catholic or Protestant.


Again and again he never made any statement private or otherwise that he was an atheist. One could make a decent argument that Abraham Lincoln who was in a similar position was in fact an atheist as in private letters to friends and family he stated as much. However there is no such evidence Hitler ever did this. There is evidence that he tried to remove judea from christianity and put himself as lord and savior. Again this does not make him an atheist. An atheist doesn't state he is god he states there are no gods and I'm not a god either.


IF you bothered doing some reasearch, you'd know that he did. The German public didn't react very positively to Hitler's oppressive measures from at the outset of his reign. Hitler took power in Jan of 1933, but couldn't put in effect any oppressive laws until he passed the Enabling act of march 1933; which enabled him to make laws without parlementary approvals. One of the 1st laws he enacted was a general boycott of Jewish business (enforced by the SS, Brown shirts, etc); however, this did not fare too well among Germans, especially the clergy. Hitler was advised by his staff (J Goebels) to rescind the order, lest he create a wave of unpopularity that could doom his reign. So Hitler learned how to gauge the German sentiment, and learned early on that being coy about himself (and his intentions) was the best way to procede forward.


If you bothered to do some research you'd find out that those closest to hitler stated over and over that he was a religious man.



I guess you are looking to find an official "Atheist registration card" with Hitler's name on it.
I just explained above why it made more sense to cover up his true belief & intentions; but I guess that is hard to accept when your head is buried in 10Ft of sandy denial.


No I'm looking for evidence and you have none.


What I'm asking you is to PRODUCE written Catholic documentation (policy, liturgy, doctrines) that mandated anti-semitism. Unofficially, anti-semitic sentiments existed ALL OVER europe, in both Protestant & Catholic groupings, as well as SECULAR ones; but not by official decree. There was antisemitic policy (unwritten ) in the USA. PPle openly advertised that "no Jews/blacks need apply" for many jobs. There were quotas in schools, and gov't jobs of how many Jews could be hired; so YES, there was anti-semitic policy ALL over the west; equally from religious and secular circles; coming from atheists and non atheists.


Why would I have to when this was widely known and you already admitted as much?


In addition to you not doing any kinda research, you don't know how to Fkn read well. Hitler paraded Norse Gods to whip up public spirit for war...not because he had religious inclinations for any Norse Gods. It was a propaganda tactic.


Again I have no choice but to take a man's beliefs by his word. Maybe your proclaiming christianity as a propaganda technique to whip up public spirit for war against atheist. Maybe in fact your an atheist yourself. I don't read minds and have no evidence to that so I guess like hitler I will have to take ya'lls word for it. Remember the mein kampf quotes I provided where he made it very clear he believed in god.


The basis for him being a bad guy, was that he was a hateful human being to start with; who had no regard for any credos or morals; and who had disdain for anyone who dare oppose his views.


Many christians in history were the same way. Christians use to convert via the end of a sword. As in convert or I'll run you through.



I dunno WTF you are talking ^ about here (and neither do you); Hitler wanted the Jews dead because he viewed them as Parasitic; sucking the vitality of Germany, and having sold out at the end of WW1; he could otherwise care less about what they allegedly did to JC. His attack on Jews was not retribution that was religiously orchestrated, it was based more on secular/political/social reasons.


I understand that according to multiple studies done by numerous organizations it's a well known fact that atheist know the bible much better than christians. If you actually read the bible you'd know what I was talking about. See your jesus character for whom we have no real historical evidence for existing was brought to pontius pilate by jewish rabbis. They demanded he execute him for blasphemy according to the bible. Pontius pilate who was a real person that we have tons of evidence for and can even date the time period he managed jerusalem for rome. The time period for pontius pilate creates some issues for almost all the books of the new testament. Anyhoo despite him being well documented to kill thousands of jews all the time without even batting a eye. The bible claims he talked to jesus a jewish blasphemy carpenter real special like and found no fault in this man. See the writers the new testament had an agenda to place the blame on the jews and not rome. Hence the washing of the hands and such. So for all of christian history there has always been serious disdain and hatred for jews for killing their imaginary lord and savior jesus christ.



as I said, you don't know WTF you are talking about. In saying that his "most despised act" was to pander to Catholic Germans (as though they held all the political power) shows it! He pandered to nobody, he was shrewd and deceptive and manged to hoodwink the whole German public (catholic and protestant).


If all christians have a hatred for the jews it's easy for hitler to get them to go along with eradicating them. So therefore his most despised acts were at the very least to pander to christians. Try to keep up buddy.


Umm, Yah....in your twisted religion-hating mind; its the christians & Catholics who were responsible for Hitler's ravages. Maybe in your spare time, you can fabricate how orthodox Christianity was responsible for Stalin's actions; and maybe you can then forge ahead and blame Buddhism for the atrocities committed by Mao.


Well at the very least they did participate. I'm guessing to you hitler was possessed by your imaginary enemy the devil and led all the christian germans astray. Do I need to live in your imaginary world to state history and fact?



This ^ statement here is the crown that glorifies your inane stupidity. You quote Goebbels in (correctly) saying that Hitler hates christianity, yet you go on to say that he is a "product of (catholic) christianity". He may have been exposed to catholic christianity as a youth, but he certainly not a product of it!

There is very little else that can be said to further this discussion in any meaningful way!


Well if as a christian you blame the jews for the death of jesus and hate them for it. At a certain point when you've decided to wipe them from the face of the earth and hate them so much you can't face the fact that jesus was in fact a jew. It is where the natural full circle of that train of thought leads isn't it? Many racist christian organizations such as the kkk and modern nazis do this to this very day. Hitler attempted to become the god of his own church to remove that dirty jew from that cross right?

Also I agree with all of drinkthesunwithmyface last post for the record.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 203
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/7/2017 10:13:52 AM
THE STAR TREK CHALLENGE
the challenge is to tell of an original "rational" scientific concept that wasn't "plagiarized" off an episode of Star Trek ..


Posted By: yule_liquor
Living as a 3-D hologram in a 3-d universe does not preclude us from having physical interactions,

unfortunately you got this concept from "Star Trek Voyager" in which the Doctor on the ship although a 3D hologram can interact physically with the crew members and even perform medical procedures on them .. ...so sorry yule liquor but you failed the challenge


Posted By: yule_liquor
and stop watching Star-trek reruns, you might 1 day undertand what I'm talking about.

it appears that your religious belief of existing as a 3D hologram is due to you watching reruns of Star Trek ...can we say hypocrite?


Posted By: yule_liquor
When you put away the reefer

reefer is a term from the 20th century....perhaps Mr. Spock can update your hologram language program to the 21st century

so would you like another chance to carry out "The Temptress" orders and put me in my place by explaining "rationally" why you exist as a 3D holographic figment of some unprovable entity's imagination?

and can you do it without sounding like a 'Trekkie"?

if not ...then move on ..... and boldly go where no other Scientologist has ever gone before
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 204
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/7/2017 11:25:57 PM
@ Drink


Hitler was the god at the center of a religion. The religion which took the name Nazism.


You are conjuring up your own definition here, and if it is your OPINION that Nazism was a religion then you are entitled to see it that way, but it is not the reality!

In fairness to you, I could understand why you (as an atheist observer) would view it as a religion, because the level of organization (from top down) bears some similarities to many of the traditional religious oligarchies; but there is far more to see

First off, the Nazi's never promoted their ideology in the form of a Religion; but Christian religious preceps were co-opted (starting from the Thule society) in order to bolster their position of being traditionalists, but that was just rhetoric & propaganda in order to simulate themselves as being "just good ol'ordinary down to earth folks" within their society.

The Nazi ideology was morphed into a "movement" of which Hitler became the head. The movement emboddied its own philosophy of German superiority (and everything that must be overcome in order to achieve superiority); thus in essence it was a philosophy that was put in action and given momentum. Hitler never sought to actively supplant Nazism over Christianity, but merely sought ways to co-exist with it so as not to create friction that undermine his neferious goals. Hitler was a "user"; he would use any kind of rhetoric to appeal to whatever group he needed to appeal to get what he wanted to get. In other words, if he needed to "thank God" in order to be in good standing with German clergy, he would come up with rhetoric that sounded as though he was a 'servant of God'. And this is what many atheists get duped by and come out thinking that Hiter was a "religious man".

In short, most Religions (Xtianity, Islam, Hindu) are not philosophies; but certain philosophies can emanate from Religion. The Nazis already had their philosophy of supremacy which was not of Christian derivation, all they had to do was to cloak it and sell it to a disenfranchised public. In order to forge forward, the Nazi's used all kinds of rhetoric, symbolisms, analogies to appeal to German nationalism as long as the populace was made to believe that it wasn't something that "god" wouldn't want for Germany .

Hitler himself (as it was gradulally revealed by some of his closest members...one of which was Dr Theo Morell, his private doctor), was devoid of any spiritualistic beliefs or aspirations towards any Diety. Thus, he himself was a 'defacto atheist' which I'm sure is something that Hitler himself never contemplated (which is why it was defacto). His only impetus was to re-configure Germany into what he envisioned it to be based on Nazi ideology. That was his "raison d'etre", and when he could no longer achieve that, he killed himself!

=================================

@wolf


Not being christian doesn't make an atheist. Bad actions and behavior doesn't make a non-christian. That's what is just flying over your head.


Not believing an any diety makes one an atheist, and this is more what the catagory that Hitler fit into regardless of what he said or didn't say. Actions and sentiment speak louder than words.


Again and again he never made any statement private or otherwise that he was an atheist.


Talk about being dense!


There is evidence that he tried to remove judea from christianity and put himself as lord and savior.


I didn't see this, so maybe you could post a website or link; however, if he did say then it was clearly just rhetoric and little else, said for the purpose of fluffing up his image. If this were true, then he would have acted Christ like, in his demeanor reather than war-like. The question is how many lies do you wanna believe in to make yourself feel good.


If you bothered to do some research you'd find out that those closest to hitler stated over and over that he was a religious man.


You mean like Goebels, Boreman, Goring, and Himmler...well if they said its gotta be true...now let me sell you the Brooklyn bridge real cheap


Why would I have to when this was widely known and you already admitted as much?


I'll ask again.
Put up Catholic or any kind of christian literature which commands or obliges their followers to commit mass murder, as you insinuated that they were behind in doing!


Many christians in history were the same way. Christians use to convert via the end of a sword.


Then (if true) they were not christians, but only imposters...unless you can quote a passage from the New testament where Jesus cammanded his apostles to get new converts by the sword!


If you actually read the bible you'd know what I was talking about.


yeah,..... I could see by your above statements as to how well you know it!!!!


See the writers the new testament had an agenda to place the blame on the jews and not rome. Hence the washing of the hands and such. So for all of christian history there has always been serious disdain and hatred for jews


First, it was the policy of the Romans to give all "citizens" a hearing' especially somebody who was accused of being an insurgent (simply because that was a common way to remove somebody you didn't like...just accuse him of being an insurgent).....That Jesus got a hearing (from either Pilate or his underlings) is completely believable...because that was 1 of their main jobs, to maintain law and order. All Pilate wanted to do is make sure JC was not a threat to the state. When he heard Jesus talk of kingdom of another world, he pegged him for a nut, and let him go, but the ruling class Jews raised a ruckus and to appease them he let them decide Jesus' fate. This is completely plausible and commonly done to pacify the public, as Pilate didn't care either way. The notion that somebody like Pilate would sentence to death every jew that came before him is absurd; he'd killed every Jew in Judea inside 1-2 years if that was the case. You are now talking outta your ass at full throttle!


If all christians have a hatred for the jews it's easy for hitler to get them to go along with eradicating them.


If all christains had a hate for Jews as you insinuate, there wouldn't be any Jews in existence by the begining of the 20th century.

Man, your argument is hollow as a dead tree trunk, as you erected a "strawman" (the christian/catholic construct) to be the "whipping boy" for all Nazism stood for, while your try to polish up the atheistic image so you could bring out some warm & fuzzy feelings for yourself. You might now wanna step up to a higher challenge and see if you can absolve Stalin & Mao.


I'm guessing to you hitler was possessed by your imaginary enemy the devil


No he was possessed by his Megalomania, which is something that tends to possesses those who believe in nothing besides themselves.

====================================

@ Funch


unfortunately you got this concept from "Star Trek Voyager"


First of all, I never saw the episode you are talking about, but if so then where the Fk do you think they got it from?
Or do your think that they invented it orginally...can you really be that stupid?

see:
crystalinks.com/holographic.htlm.


it appears that your religious belief of existing as a 3D hologram is due to you watching reruns of Star Trek


The day you come to realize that the movie writers get their ideas from real life science, is the day you will have put down the reefer, and gotten your Fkn sanity back!


so would you like another chance to carry out "The Temptress" orders


Jealousy is a heavy load for you to be carrying around; she could not back you to the extent that you wanted because your high demand for attention exceeds what most pple can provide. There is no point in calling her a Temptress when every thing she did for you fell below your expectations, so she had to put her foot down and try bring you to your senses...but she didn't know was that this could not be possible in the altered state you are usually in!
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 205
view profile
History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 12:50:15 AM
What is up with this star trek challenge crap already? What bearing would it have that something can be found somewhere in star trek? It would really suck if a t.v. show just happened to have included every topic or idea that we could ever possibly conceive of...because then funches would say that we're not allowed to talk about it. Therefore, we couldn't have any conversations anymore because they're all off limits just because somebody on the t.v. show said something about it.


Go Lick Her:

Ok so, you strung together a lot of sentences, but with all of them you didn't really say anything helpful. Allow me to explain -

You are conjuring up your own definition here, and if it is your OPINION that Nazism was a religion then you are entitled to see it that way, but it is not the reality!

How do you know? What definition is that? How do you know that I'm just conjuring up my own definition? Do you know yet exactly what my definition is? How can you say this?

In fairness to you, I could understand why you (as an atheist observer) would view it as a religion, because the level of organization (from top down) bears some similarities to many of the traditional religious oligarchies; but there is far more to see

No you're not...you're not understanding. A level of organization almost isn't a part of it at all.

First off, the Nazi's never promoted their ideology in the form of a Religion; but Christian religious preceps were co-opted (starting from the Thule society) in order to bolster their position of being traditionalists, but that was just rhetoric & propaganda in order to simulate themselves as being "just good ol'ordinary down to earth folks" within their society.

They never promoted their ideology in the form of a religion...so what? Who cares? I don't look at the name or face of something. I don't just look at something's label or how it's presented. If a pile of poop has a sign on it that reads "vanilla pudding", it's still a pile of poop and it's up to me to look beyond the sign. If a product on the shopping channel is presented as being a steak knife but I see that it's a coffee cup, I'm going with the coffee cup. If a label on a bottle of juice reads "grapefruit juice", I'm still going to read the list of ingredients to see if it's really a blend of apple and cranberry and whatever juices.

And all of your other stuff here about them co-opting things and weaving propaganda and an appearance...is likewise of quite little relevance. Though, if anything, it indicates quite a similarity to almost any other religion.

The Nazi ideology was morphed into a "movement" of which Hitler became the head. The movement emboddied its own philosophy of German superiority (and everything that must be overcome in order to achieve superiority); thus in essence it was a philosophy that was put in action and given momentum. Hitler never sought to actively supplant Nazism over Christianity, but merely sought ways to co-exist with it so as not to create friction that undermine his neferious goals. Hitler was a "user"; he would use any kind of rhetoric to appeal to whatever group he needed to appeal to get what he wanted to get. In other words, if he needed to "thank God" in order to be in good standing with German clergy, he would come up with rhetoric that sounded as though he was a 'servant of God'. And this is what many atheists get duped by and come out thinking that Hiter was a "religious man".

And? What's your point here? How does this oppose my idea that Nazism was a religion? Please re-read above comments.

In short, most Religions (Xtianity, Islam, Hindu) are not philosophies; but certain philosophies can emanate from Religion.

Um, what? This is just ambiguous jibber jabber. Philosophy...religion...blah blah blah. Just some word-bullshit, and doesn't really have any meaning which takes away from the idea that Nazism was a religion. Do you know what you yourself mean by "philosophy"?

The Nazis already had their philosophy of supremacy which was not of Christian derivation

Who cares if it's of Christian derivation or not? What bearing does this have?

...all they had to do was to cloak it and sell it to a disenfranchised public. In order to forge forward, the Nazi's used all kinds of rhetoric, symbolisms, analogies...

Sounding more and more like how a religion operates. Are you sure that you're arguing against me, or for me?

Hitler himself...was devoid of any spiritualistic beliefs or aspirations towards any Diety.

I don't really care. This doesn't mean anything. A mistake that people often make is to think that a god or supernatural element has to be present to indicate that something is a religion. The god-concept, or anything supernatural, is just one form that religion takes...the most commonly recognized and immediately obvious form. But most definitely not the only form a religion can take. Not by a long shot.

Thus, he himself was a 'defacto atheist'

Again, I don't care whether or not Hitler was spiritual in any sense. Again, just as you wouldn't call god an atheist because he himself doesn't embrace any religion except maybe the one which he is at the center of...so the whole question of whether or not Hitler was theistic or atheistic just doesn't even apply anyway. It's not really a part of it either way. Thus, it's stupid to call him a defacto atheist or theist. Makes no sense. It doesn't make any sense to say that the number 5 is not a 5 or even a number because it is not a 4 or 6, or doesn't believe in 4's or 6's. Makes no sense to say that an orange is not a fruit because it isn't an apple or doesn't eat apples.

His only impetus was to re-configure Germany into what he envisioned it to be based on Nazi ideology

This does not say whether or not Nazism was or was not a religion. How does this have any bearing?

Not believing an any diety makes one an atheist, and this is more what the catagory that Hitler fit into regardless of what he said or didn't say

But this wouldn't mean that Nazism wasn't a religion.

I'll ask again.
Put up Catholic or any kind of christian literature which commands or obliges their followers to commit mass murder, as you insinuated that they were behind in doing!

And by the way...are you really challenging someone to find an instance in Christianity wherein god commanded any mass murder? How can anyone take you seriously?

Then (if true) they were not christians, but only imposters

The problem here is that it's very hard for anyone to say who are the real Christians and who are the imposters. How do you discern such a thing?
 wolfman4142
Joined: 12/20/2016
Msg: 206
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 1:02:17 AM

You are conjuring up your own definition here, and if it is your OPINION that Nazism was a religion then you are entitled to see it that way, but it is not the reality!


You stupid stupid man. He didn't conjure it up at all. "Historians, political scientists and philosophers have studied Nazism with a specific focus on its religious and pseudo-religious aspects.[1] It has been debated whether Nazism would constitute a political religion, and there has also been research on the millenarian, messianic, and occult or esoteric aspects of Nazism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism

Try using wikipedia you hardheaded dummy.


Not believing an any diety makes one an atheist, and this is more what the catagory that Hitler fit into regardless of what he said or didn't say.


Why are we continuing this conversation if no matter what evidence is presented you are gonna put him in that category regardless? We already heard you and the general consensus of professionals disagree with you so move on. You can restate your rhetoric over and over all you want but it still won't make it true because it just isn't.



Actions and sentiment speak louder than words.


Name an action or sentiment that a christian could or could not do that would prove that someone is or is not a christian. Far as I've ever read in the bible there is but one requirement to being a christian. That you be gullible enough to believe it. Apparently you've rewritten your bible and are now trying to rewrite history on these forums as if your judgement on anything means dog sh!t to anyone.


I didn't see this, so maybe you could post a website or link; however, if he did say then it was clearly just rhetoric and little else, said for the purpose of fluffing up his image. If this were true, then he would have acted Christ like, in his demeanor reather than war-like. The question is how many lies do you wanna believe in to make yourself feel good.


You don't see a lot of things you just see what you want.



You mean like Goebels, Boreman, Goring, and Himmler...well if they said its gotta be true...now let me sell you the Brooklyn bridge real cheap


Yeah yule everyone is going to dismiss the people who knew the man and actually had a relationship with the man and instead listen to your opinions based I guess on your gut feelings. You figured it all out buddy.


I'll ask again.
Put up Catholic or any kind of christian literature which commands or obliges their followers to commit mass murder, as you insinuated that they were behind in doing!


Why would followers have to be commanded to commit mass murder by catholic or christian literature in order to commit the act of mass murder?



Then (if true) they were not christians, but only imposters...unless you can quote a passage from the New testament where Jesus cammanded his apostles to get new converts by the sword!


Again why would a barbaric christian follower gullible enough to believe need to be commanded to do something in order to do it?


First, it was the policy of the Romans to give all "citizens" a hearing' especially somebody who was accused of being an insurgent (simply because that was a common way to remove somebody you didn't like...just accuse him of being an insurgent).....That Jesus got a hearing (from either Pilate or his underlings) is completely believable...because that was 1 of their main jobs, to maintain law and order.



Wrong again yule Roman citizen status was rather exclusive amongst non-Italians. It was accorded usually for some significant reason (long military service and such). Also, Jesus's manner of death would indicate that he wasn't. A Roman citizen was entitled to trial by Roman authorities (ie the provincial governor) and a "clean" death by decapitation.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/history/1436972-jesus-roman-citizen-empire-military-united.html#ixzz4V9rDJB9k


If all christains had a hate for Jews as you insinuate, there wouldn't be any Jews in existence by the begining of the 20th century.


Wrong again and again you just can't help being wrong can you? Let me ask you a serious question. The germans killed countless amounts of jews right? Like 5-6 million. Hitler couldn't of killed that many by himself right? As a matter of fact he probably didn't kill any. If the population of Germany was approximately 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic; Jews made up less than 1% of the population. Who do you think did all that jew killing yule?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 207
view profile
History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 6:51:56 AM
This is like Ground Hog Day hey Drink?

mmm... Was Hitler a fantasist with supernatural leanings? Or was he a critical thinker who tended through rational analysis toward atheism? Well, we know he had 'skills' in certain areas, but we also know he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. So take a guess...

From Mein Kampf, the manifesto/book he himself wrote - http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/meinkampf/toc.htm


The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following:
(a) Lowering of the level of the higher race;
(b) Physical and intellectual regression and hence the ......beginning of a slowly but surely progressing sickness.

To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin against the will of the eternal creator.

[snip]

Concerning the moral value of Jewish religious instruction, there are today... exhaustive studies which make this kind of religion (Judaism) seem positively monstrous according to Aryan conceptions.
His life (the Jew) is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine.
Of course, the latter (Christ) made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took to the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity...
In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties.
http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/meinkampf/v1c11.htm


The usual response to this ^^^ type of reference tends to be an attempt to insert the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy into the discussion, while ignoring the fact that Hitler explicitly links atheism, Jewish political parties, and social corruption.

Elsewhere in Mein Kampf Hitler says -


Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/meinkampf/v1c2.htm

What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.
http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/meinkampf/v1c8.htm


I dunno about you all, but this ^^^ doesn't sound to me like the kind of thing an atheist would say? It sounds more like the kind of thing someone might say if they thought they were on a mission from god.

But the fact is, Adolf wasn't exactly a good Catholic, but he knew his goals and the goals of the established (Catholic) church were not entirely incompatible. Established Catholicism agreed, hence the early non-interference treaties - with both local Catholic authorities and the Vatican.
Symbols are important, and it's a fact Hitler used religious mottos - the belt buckles used by all Wehrmacht soldiers (God With Us) are a well known example.

I find discussions of Hitler's religious views tedious partly because, on the one hand, it's obvious he was an ideologue in competition with the church, and on the other hand because he, as Mr. Fascism, distrusted all intellectuals and critical thinkers - including atheists.

The only worthwhile point about Hitlers relationship to the church is the fact that the Catholic church (apart from a few individuals - who got silenced) did not condemn Hitler, or his activities. Actually he got a lot of support from the pulpit, not just local priests but from the Bishops as well - I can, of course, produce citations to demonstrate that if needed. The Vatican was also active in the 'underground railway' that smuggled so many ex-Nazi's to South America after the war. It's not a coincidence that South America was the preferred destination, it is a Catholic stronghold. I can produce citations to demonstrate that too if needed, but anyone can easily find these things out for themselves and I'm trying to limit the length of the post.

This fact pretty comprehensively demolishes the often heard claim that only god-given holy sacred religion is a reliable source of morality, or even the idea that the church/religion is a worthwhile source of knowledge as to what is good, and what is evil.

Of course the Catholic church does communicate very clearly its position on good and evil, and it did with Hitler. It's pretty simple - anything that supports the church is good, anything that threatens the church is evil.
Hitler initially did not threaten the church - therefore they had no issue with him.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 208
view profile
History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 6:56:16 AM
Now... on to the request for references to Catholic anti-semitism?


...PRODUCE written Catholic documentation (policy, liturgy, doctrines) that mandated anti-semitism.

OK


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide
Justification of prejudice against Jews for the death of Jesus has been attributed to Matthew 27:24-25, "When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. 'I am innocent of this man’s blood,' he said. 'It is your responsibility!' All the people answered, 'His blood is on us and on our children!' "

In Liturgy
The Holy Friday liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church and Byzantine Catholics uses the expression "impious and transgressing people", but the strongest expressions are in the Holy Thursday liturgy, which includes the same chant, after the eleventh Gospel reading, but also speaks of "the murderers of God, the lawless nation of the Jews", and, referring to "the assembly of the Jews", prays: "But give them, Lord, their reward, because they devised vain things against Thee."

A liturgy with a similar pattern, historically using the term "perfidious Jews," can be found in the Improperia * of the Roman Catholic Church.


As a part of Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI issued the declaration Nostra Aetate ("In Our Time"), which in part repudiated the traditional belief in the collective Jewish guilt for the Crucifixion.
Nostra Aetate stated that, even though some Jewish authorities and those who followed them called for Jesus' death, the blame for this cannot be laid at the door of all those Jews present at that time, nor can the Jews in our time be held as guilty.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improperia
The Improperia are a series of antiphons and responses, expressing the remonstrance of Jesus Christ with His people. They are also known as the "Reproaches". In the Catholic liturgy they are sung as part of the observance of the Passion, usually on the afternoon of Good Friday.

The revisers of the Anglican Prayer Book have sought to downplay the historical anti-Semitism associated with the Reproaches.


Note that it was only in 1962-1965 the Catholic church 'officially' repudiated it's position that all Jews, then and now, are lawless killers. But they couldn't quite let go of it completely, all they did was concede that maybe not all the Jews living then were lawless killers, and maybe not all the Jews living now are as culpable.
To illustrate they hadn't quite let go of that long held belief, it reappeared again in 2007.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_prayer_for_the_Jews
The universal permission given to priests by Pope Benedict XVI in 2007 to celebrate the so-called "Tridentine" liturgy resulted in complaints from Jewish groups and some leaders in the Roman Catholic Church over what they perceived as being a return to a supersessionist theology.

The new prayer reads as follows:

Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

The new formulation continued to be met with reservations by groups such as the Anti-Defamation League. Though they considered the removal of "blindness" and "immersion in darkness" with respect to the Jews an improvement over the original Tridentine language, no reason was offered as to why the Good Friday prayer from the Reformed Rite of Paul VI was not simply used instead.


And to step back in time, uniting this post with my previous one about the things Hitler said about religion, and his attitude toward Jews...
Here's a reference to the actual historically known speech and actions of the wartime Pope (allegedly the infallible earthly representative of God) that show he probably thought at least parts of Mein Kampf made sense.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/timeline.htm

In 1942 Great Britain, the Polish Government-in-exile, Brazil, the United States, and Uruguay press Pope Pius XII to condemn the Nazi treatment of Jews. The Pope responds to this international appeal with his Christmas radio address, but does not specifically mention the Jews

In 1945, addressing the College of Cardinals after the end of the European war, Pope Pius XII speaks of the hundreds of priests and religious who died in Nazi concentration camps, but makes no mention of the Jews


So who was this Pope Pius XII guy? Why wouldn't God's right hand man here on earth, the guardian of morality and all things good lend his support to Britain and the Allies opposing the forces of nastiness and horror?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
Pope Pius XII
Before becoming Pope, Cardinal Pacelli presided as Papal Legate over the International Eucharistic Congress in Budapest on 25–30 May 1938. At this time antisemitic laws were in the process of being formulated in Hungary. Pacelli made reference to the Jews "whose lips curse [Christ] and whose hearts reject him even today".

In the summer of 1942, Pius explained to his college of Cardinals the reasons for the great gulf that existed between Jews and Christians at the theological level:
"Jerusalem has responded to His call and to His grace with the same rigid blindness and stubborn ingratitude that has led it along the path of guilt to the murder of God."


Religion is a pox on civilisation.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 209
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 9:25:46 AM

Posted By: yule_liquor
First of all, I never saw the episode you are talking about, but if so then where the Fk do you think they got it from?

well they clearly didn't get the term "3d hologram" from any religious scripture ...you were supposed to describe your religious beliefs and the only thing you could do is claim that you exist as a 3D hologram ....that makes you a Trekkie

why are you so ashamed to use the word "Ghost"? ....can't you just make up stuff like you normally do and say that Ghost is Hebrew for 3d hologram ?


Posted By: yule_liquor
There is no point in calling her a Temptress when every thing she did for you fell below your expectations

she fell below God's expectations .....a true Believer would wait on God to heal them not run to Doctor Strange to view their nakedness ...that's a Temptress

if you can't find an Atheist in a foxhole then you shouldn't be able to find a True Believer at the hospital


Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
What is up with this star trek challenge crap already? What bearing would it have that something can be found somewhere in star trek?

it's simple ..if you can come up with a rational scientific concept that's not on Star Trek ....it's called having an "Original Thought" ....


Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
because then funches would say that we're not allowed to talk about it.

you guys can discuss what you want to discuss but you were mistaking the discussions as being Original Thought when in fact you guys were just a bunch of Trekkies discussing episodes of Star Trek ...to prove this is why I offered the Star Trek challenge in which none of your guys could come up with a rational scientific concept that couldn't be found on an episode of Star Trek

now we have yule-liquor describing his religious beliefs as existing as a 3d hologram which is clearly off of Star Trek ....but in yule liquor's case perhaps it's from an episode of "The Outer Limits" or "Night Gallery"


Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
It would really suck if a t.v. show just happened to have included every topic or idea that we could ever possibly conceive of.

is that what you said to your school teachers when they asked you to stop plagiarizing your book reports from "Cliff Notes"


Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
Therefore, we couldn't have any conversations anymore because they're all off limits just because somebody on the t.v. show said something about it.

well you did promise the forum that you have some knowledge never heard before in the annals of Mankind ....still waiting on you to deliver it ...that would be a good conversation to have ...sort of running out of popcorn waiting ......so chop chop
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 210
view profile
History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 1:00:15 PM
Ground Hog day. Funny.

Oh, another little tidbit that most people rarely hear about: Hitler waged an ostracization war against atheists in Germany almost as much as he did against jews.

...and I wonder if that was ever in Star Trek.
 wolfman4142
Joined: 12/20/2016
Msg: 211
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 2:08:00 PM

Ground Hog day. Funny.

Oh, another little tidbit that most people rarely hear about: Hitler waged an ostracization war against atheists in Germany almost as much as he did against jews.

...and I wonder if that was ever in Star Trek.


I wouldn't be surprised by that at all. If I had to put a movie on Yule it would be a sh!tty matrix movie. Where they offer a guy the red or blue pill and the guy just keeps arguing and arguing that the matrix doesn't exist. Everyone just keeps waiting for him to choose. Wanting him to either take the red and stfu or the blue and go home already.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 212
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 8:01:53 PM
wow, the atheists out in force on the attack! What a communciation system y'all have; kinda like bees swarming!

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Drinker says:


Do you know yet exactly what my definition is?


Then he says:


Sounding more and more like how a religion operates.


well, tell us your version how religion "operates" then!


Who cares?


apparently you do, because you need to discern whether or not it operates like a religion


How does this oppose my idea that Nazism was a religion?


that hinges upon what you contrived as to what makes up a "religion"


A mistake that people often make is to think that a god or supernatural element has to be present to indicate that something is a religion. The god-concept, or anything supernatural, is just one form that religion takes.


You convenienty use the term Religion as a waste-paper basket term to define whatever movement you wish, but nonetheless I am starting to get an idea of what you would call a religion. Kinda like a group of eager and avid Butterfly collectors could fall into the "religious" basket according to you; moreover, just as well, a bunch of militant atheists committed (with fervor) on assaulting Theism; Not mention persecutionists of yore from ex-communist regimes.....yep, I get it now!


the whole question of whether or not Hitler was theistic or atheistic just doesn't even apply anyway.


Sure, if you are gonna make him head of his "religion"....that officially was never acknowledged by anyone else in the Party.


How does this have any bearing?


It has bearing to show that Hitler's aim was invested in (his vision) of German grandeur...and violence was the means by which he chose to reach for it! Its that simple! You wanna call it a religion?


But this wouldn't mean that Nazism wasn't a religion.


Sure, if we use your open ended definition, as I said, just about anything could be viewed as a religion. The fact that I get up every morning and do my calesthenics regardless of how I feel, I now know is a "religion"!


are you really challenging someone to find an instance in Christianity wherein god commanded any mass murder? How can anyone take you seriously?


You are welcomed to put a verse from the new testament, where it commands all followers to commit mass murder!


The problem here is that it's very hard for anyone to say who are the real Christians and who are the imposters.


well this is one thing ^ that I will be in agreement with!


Hitler waged an ostracization war against atheists in Germany almost as much as he did against jews.


This probably came about when he met with 1 of them, and was told ..."Adolf, you can come outta the closet, you are one of us!"...and Hitler's ego couldn't handle it!


============================================

At wolf


You stupid stupid man. He didn't conjure it up at all.


there is nothing more amusing than an angry militant atheist!


It has been debated


Wow, then that settles it, right!!!
Btw, it is also being debated whether there was any life on Mars, too


Try using wikipedia you hardheaded dummy.


I'm not in grammar school anymore.


Name an action or sentiment that a christian could or could not do that would prove that someone is or is not a christian.


Wow, that is a hard one...Hmmm, lemme think!
Ummm, I guess just accept that JC was the savior, and follow his principles as he taught.
Or, claim (falsely) to being a christian, and at the same time disregarding what he suppsedly stood for and what he taught!


Far as I've ever read in the bible there is but one requirement to being a christian.


Time for you to get a New Bible...make sure you buy one that has more than 1 sentence in it, and not written in crayon!


as if your judgement on anything means dog sh!t to anyone.


well, it means something to you, otherwise why would you be back here barking-mad at me!



you just see what you want.


what i saw was someone whose deeds did not co-incide with his earlier words


everyone is going to dismiss the people who knew the man and actually had a relationship with the man


I'd like to know who it is that had a "relationship" with Hitler other than the ones I mentioned...maybe you could dredge up one of his Golf buddies!


Why would followers have to be commanded to commit mass murder by catholic or christian


Ummmm...because if the order came from a self described Christian head, then you'd wanna know what the basis for that order was!


a barbaric christian follower


Barbaric Christain followers...great name for a Heavy Metal Rock Band!


Wrong again yule Roman citizen status was rather exclusive amongst non-Italians.


Anyone in the empire endowed with Roman citizenship had a right to be heard. How they died is another matter.
I guess (St) Paul was an exclusive non-Italian.


If the population of Germany was approximately 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic; Jews made up less than 1% of the population. Who do you think did all that jew killing yule?


The 76% of Prots and 33% of Caths who took their "supposed" Christian principles (if they ever had any to begin with) as defined by Jesus' teachings...and flushed them down the toilet, in exchange for a madman's dream!

====================================
At Cheater


I dunno about you all, but this ^^^ doesn't sound to me like the kind of thing an atheist would say? It sounds more like the kind of thing someone might say if they thought they were on a mission from god.


well it depends what kinda "god' he was referring to; or but more likely he was just whipping up religious rhetoric to stirr up a "Manifest destiny type of passion" amongst his pple... and at the same time vilify and scapegoat a minority, who in his mind were undermining German Greatness. Only a fool is incapable of seeing through this!

Btw, Donald trump did something similar here in the US which enabled him to get elected, he cozied up to religious pple; he preyed upon pple's fears of outsiders, he professes new "greatness" for America...all too familiar to me!


This fact pretty comprehensively demolishes the often heard claim that only god-given holy sacred religion is a reliable source of morality, or even the idea that the church/religion is a worthwhile source of knowledge as to what is good, and what is evil.


Sure, if you are gonna hand out an indictment on faulty practitioners,..... I'm all for it!
But unless you can post some passages from the NT where Jesus himself justifies that "followers" are to hide and abet malevolent individuals (whether in their own ranks or outside it), then you got nothing to stand on; and apart from that; anyone who sincerely claims to be a Christian...then his only source of Morality is from the New Testament...and nowhere else!


Now... on to the request for references to Catholic anti-semitism?


No, actually the request was for references where Catholicism (or any form of current Christianity) approves of or mandates for acts of Terror/Mass murder....in connection to what was posted (by Wolf), that Christians/Catholics (being that Hitler was "Catholic"), were in some way responsible for the violence and atrocities.

I already acknowledged that there was anti-semitic sentiments among the various dominant European Churches (both Cath & Protestant), as well as in secular Gov't (as expressed by so-called anti-semitic laws); whether Theist or Athiest. Thus, everyone was involved in that sense!


So who was this Pope Pius XII guy? Why wouldn't God's right hand man here on earth, the guardian of morality and all things good lend his support to Britain and the Allies opposing the forces of nastiness and horror?


Good point!...but why didn't the earthly Lords & guardians of morality of that time (France & UK) put a stop to the 3rd reich while still in its infancy...as they KNEW quite well what their philosophy and game plan was.....I'm guessing that "Order of Business" was way more important than Morality...but when their "darling" evolved into a monster they could not control, then they petitioned the Pope in 1942 (which by that time he already had a proverbial gun pointed to his head) to repudiate a man, who the "allies" themselves did not repudiate from the start!


Religion is a pox on civilisation.


wow, whatta proclamation......I'm sure that the great Atheist stand-up guys like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Jong un would no doubt agree with that!

================================

at Funch


well they clearly didn't get the term "3d hologram" from any religious scripture


I didn't say they did...and nor did I


why are you so ashamed to use the word "Ghost"?


Because it isn't applicable to 3-D holography.... if you had read what I put up, you'd have some idea of what I was talking about!


she fell below God's expectations


If that is your conclusion then you should have had enough wisdom to make her understand it!
 wolfman4142
Joined: 12/20/2016
Msg: 213
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/8/2017 9:03:18 PM

there is nothing more amusing than an angry militant atheist!


I am angry and very angry that I got to deal with brainwashed cult members like you. Who don't have or want the critical think skills to think for themselves. They need their cult to do it for them.



It has been debated



Wow, then that settles it, right!!!
Btw, it is also being debated whether there was any life on Mars, too


See you only see what you want to see because I show you where drinkthesunwithmyface got the information that you said he just conjured up and you got dumb sh!t to say like above and below.



Try using wikipedia you hardheaded dummy.



I'm not in grammar school anymore.


You're not even trying to be intellectually honest so what is your purpose in posting? You think someone is going to see your dishonesty and change their minds? Is it safe to assume because you are being dishonest right now that you aren't a real christian and in fact like me an atheist?


You stupid stupid man. He didn't conjure it up at all. "Historians, political scientists and philosophers have studied Nazism with a specific focus on its religious and pseudo-religious aspects.[1] It has been debated whether Nazism would constitute a political religion, and there has also been research on the millenarian, messianic, and occult or esoteric aspects of Nazism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism

Try using wikipedia you hardheaded dummy.


Here is the post in full don't grab a word here or there and then ignore the fact that you are wrong and act as though we all missed that.



Wow, that is a hard one...Hmmm, lemme think!
Ummm, I guess just accept that JC was the savior, and follow his principles as he taught.
Or, claim (falsely) to being a christian, and at the same time disregarding what he suppsedly stood for and what he taught!



Your cult known as christianity has put this nonsense in your head. Anytime someone reads the same bible and gets a different interpretation than you it isn't the bible's fault for being unclear it's the person's fault because they aren't "real christians". Ever notice how all christians read the same bible but hold very different beliefs to the point that there are literally tens of thousands of different denominations? It's almost like what you would expect if god wasn't real or the bible wasn't the word of god at all. Funny how most people's descriptions of god mirrors themselves as if he isn't there or doesn't exist isn't it? You've taken this hard subjective stance and refuse to budge. What is your purpose as the thread is about atheist not existing and here I am and i clearly exist and I don't see you disputing that.



Anyone in the empire endowed with Roman citizenship had a right to be heard. How they died is another matter.
I guess (St) Paul was an exclusive non-Italian.


Huh? Jesus was not a roman citizen and yes paul was. WTF are you talking about dude? Paul wasn't always paul he was saul chasing and killing christians in the roman military. He had long lasting military service so he was granted roman citizenship. Duh Everybody this guy is a total troll who can't be christian because he has never even seen a bible or a church.


The 76% of Prots and 33% of Caths who took their "supposed" Christian principles (if they ever had any to begin with) as defined by Jesus' teachings...and flushed them down the toilet, in exchange for a madman's dream!


Yah know according to Jesus' teaching as you keep referring to all the time is for us not to judge. All you do is judge who is or isn't a real christian isn't up to you. Jesus himself was executed next to a murderer. So you can murder and go to heaven you know that right? If you're catholic you can be christian and murder someone confess to a priest say 10 hail marys and all is forgiven. You can rape and murder a little girl from an atheist family and she will go to hell while you say god please forgive me and go to heaven. You know this right? Like I said the bible has but one commandment and that is you be gullible to believe it.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 214
view profile
History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 1:34:00 AM
If there are no atheists in foxholes, how could the nazis have been atheists?

wow, the atheists out in force on the attack! What a communciation system y'all have; kinda like bees swarming!

Bzzz. I saw this comment as a need for attention and I was feeling generous for a moment. But you do know you can get attention without resorting to games, don't you? You have previously commented on other topics that would have been worth discussing sincerely.

Why are we continuing this conversation

When mutual needs are being met, transactions are stable and can continue indefinitely. I think some Yule and Funchesf discussions might make it into a textbook one day.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 215
view profile
History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 1:57:18 AM
Yule...you're still trying to pretend as if I'm trying to apply the word 'religion' to 'any ole thing I choose', which you could only do by assuming what my definition actually is...and so you're still not explaining how you arrive at this perception. So again, tell me without sidestepping, what is my definition of religion?

Yes, I could explain it here (or discuss what it should be with people who have honest motivations). But I've explained my opinion already in these forums, and you were probably around then (But I'm sure you have no idea what my opinion is and are just being argumentative and making assumptions). And I'm tired of doing it...tired of others not at least trying to reflect on it objectively themselves instead of wanting someone else to explain it so they can just argue against it with nonsense. Moreover, right now, you're arguing against it when it hasn't even been explained or talked about yet in this thread. Which is just stupid.

But in fact, I am doing the opposite of applying the word 'religion' to 'just any ole thing'. Your idea of calling any act or group 'religious' came out of your ass, not mine. At the very core of my attempt to define religion is to identify a quality that isn't held in common with other things...to differentiate it. Key words 'differentiate' and 'definitive'. And this is the very opposite of being loose and open-ended. The opposite of using it for 'just any ole thing'.

Here's an analogy: We are in the grocery store. You are holding a jar of apple sauce. It's label says apple sauce, and it certainly looks like apple sauce inside the jar. I pick up a jar which appears to be containing jalapeno peppers, but the label says apple sauce. I say 'hey, this isn't apple sauce, it's jalapeno peppers'. And you say 'no it isn't, it's apple sauce, you seem to be trying to call anything and everything in this store jalapeno peppers at your whim'.

With your last post, I think that we can tell that you're pretty desperate and shaky now...not to say that any of your other posts are ever very strong, but your last post is pretty damned weak. Just trying to say at least something when nothing can be said. Weak cry baby remarks. Every single time one of you ****ing retards includes in their posts something to the effect of "the atheists are all coming out and attacking", it is confirmed exactly what kind of person that we're dealing with, and we can tell that you have nothing and are trying to retreat without looking like you're retreating...else you don't have the sense to do so but just keep blabbering jibber jabber as if it does any good.

What I'd really like to do, if anything, instead of give my definition of religion...is give you and religion a fair shake - I'd really like to go through the process of figuring it out. Using this thread as a kind of experiment or workshop. Instead of explain my opinion of a definition of what a religion is, we start from scratch and go through it step by step and see what we come up with. That way everything is transparent and given a chance for objectivity and fairness. That'd only work though if we all don't try to sabotage the very process along the way like many seem to be so prone to doing.
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 5:56:02 AM
I see a bunch of off topic debates in this thread; and none of the prove the existence of "atheists."

It doesn't look like anybody's even dealing with the topic.

I consider all the Red Herrings, and Ad Hominem reasoning fallacies as capitulation.

Using the same standard of proof people who claim they're "atheists" require to prove the existence of God, they can't prove "atheists" exist.

It just shows how confused people who claim they proved there is no God are.

That's why I don't believe "atheists" exist.

Aloha
 wolfman4142
Joined: 12/20/2016
Msg: 217
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 6:20:33 AM

I see a bunch of off topic debates in this thread; and none of the prove the existence of "atheists."


Off topic debates. Agreed my bad. Proof of my existence and the fact that I do not believe in a god or gods for which there is no evidence for. I believe you can rest assured that I exist. However if you don't believe I exist really makes no difference to me.


It doesn't look like anybody's even dealing with the topic.


Well yes and no. Hitler being used as evidence of an atheist was being debated so it's kind of on topic.


I consider all the Red Herrings, and Ad Hominem reasoning fallacies as capitulation.


consider them anything you want.


Using the same standard of proof people who claim they're "atheists" require to prove the existence of God, they can't prove "atheists" exist.


That's kind of stupid but ok. Prove to me that you exist and it's not one of these other forum guys just pushing buttons on another account. Does it really matter if I shove my head in the sand and disbelieve in your existence?


It just shows how confused people who claim they proved there is no God are.

Aloha


I never claimed I proved there is no god. I claim there is no evidence for any god presented to me to date. Do you have a god you would like to present proof of? If the evidence is sufficient enough for me I will change my stance.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 218
view profile
History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 6:37:41 AM

It doesn't look like anybody's even dealing with the topic.

Because it's stupid.

Using the same standard of proof people who claim they're "atheists" require to prove the existence of God, they can't prove "atheists" exist.

On the contrary, it's easy.

It just shows how confused people who claim they proved there is no God are.

Who is claiming to have "proved there is no God"? The burden of proof is on the deluded fools who claim there are one or more god things.
Though 'proof' isn't really necessary. Just a shred of unequivocal evidence will do.

That's why I don't believe "atheists" exist.

Unconnected non sequiturs serve as foundations for your beliefs?
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 219
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 8:13:06 AM

Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
Oh, another little tidbit that most people rarely hear about: Hitler waged an ostracization war against atheists in Germany almost as much as he did against jews.

...and I wonder if that was ever in Star Trek.

of course that concept was on Star Trek in the episode (Patterns of Force) ...

one of Captain Kirk's long ago history teachers believed and tried to prove that "Fascism" was the best form of government and decided to test his theory, so he found a lawless planet and violated "The Prime Directive" but turning the entire culture to Nazism and made himself "The Fuehrer" ...of course power corrupts and one of the inhabitants on the planet drugged up the Fuehrer and turned him into his talking dummy to carry out a "Final Solution" ...Kirk and Spock had to come to the planet to get his ex-teacher and set things straight



Posted By: yule liquor
I didn't say they did...and nor did I

you told me to give your God a chance in your attempt to convert me ... I told you to give me your best shot ...and then you described yourself as being a 3d hologram linked to a central consciousness ....Dude..you totally described the holodeck on Star Trek thus making you a "BORG Trekkie" and making your God "Gene Roddenberry"


Posted By: yule liquor
Because it isn't applicable to 3-D holography.... if you had read what I put up, you'd have some idea of what I was talking about!

you said that Holograms interact with the physical world ...isn't that what Ghost also do...isn't your God a Ghost and/or a Spirit ... allow me to explain why you can't or won't refer to yourself as a Ghost ....for the simple fact that you will sound kooky which will always happen why you try to explain religious and faith based beliefs "logically" or "scientifically"


Posted By: yule liquor
If that is your conclusion then you should have had enough wisdom to make her understand it!

bottom line is that a female true believer would not be in the forum discussing religion ...they are suppose to remain silent ...haven't you notice that she never really discussed religion ....this is why The Temptress was using you as her attack dog ..I kept trying to tell you that she was playing you for a Chump ....

I guess I'm going to have to teach you about women .... let's start with the birds and the bees .....first you have Mr. Bird and Mrs. Bird and then...er....well you know


Posted By: ihopethisforkingnameworks
That's why I don't believe "atheists" exist.

just like yule liquor you also think you are a 3D hologram which means you don't even believe that you yourself exist ..so why would you believe that atheists exist, you are of the notion that existence is a figment of some omnipotent entity's imagination .... but actually I think you're still mad at your Father for lying to you for 34 years about being an Atheist


Posted By: gingerosity
I think some Yule and Funchesf discussions might make it into a textbook one day.

that's why I place "funches 3:16" so that my text will be easy to find.....yule liquor's text is already in the Devil's Bible ...oops...er..I meant "The Codex Gigas" and"The Book of Scientology" also "The Book of hologram Trekkies:
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 9:59:49 AM
Science denier.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 221
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History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 10:43:52 AM

I see a bunch of off topic debates in this thread; and none of the prove the existence of "atheists."

It doesn't look like anybody's even dealing with the topic.

It's been dealt with already. And it has been concluded that you're full of shit and not at all interested in it yourself.


Oh, another little tidbit that most people rarely hear about: Hitler waged an ostracization war against atheists in Germany almost as much as he did against jews.

...and I wonder if that was ever in Star Trek.
of course that concept was on Star Trek in the episode (Patterns of Force) ...

one of Captain Kirk's long ago history teachers believed and tried to prove that "Fascism" was the best form of government and decided to test his theory, so he found a lawless planet and violated "The Prime Directive" but turning the entire culture to Nazism and made himself "The Fuehrer" ...of course power corrupts and one of the inhabitants on the planet drugged up the Fuehrer and turned him into his talking dummy to carry out a "Final Solution" ...Kirk and Spock had to come to the planet to get his ex-teacher and set things straight

I guess I missed the part about Hitler trying to get rid of atheists. I'll read it again...

...ok, I read it again. Still don't see it.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 222
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 1:14:24 PM

Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
I guess I missed the part about Hitler trying to get rid of atheists. I'll read it again...

...ok, I read it again. Still don't see it.

I guess you would have trouble finding Waldo ...

but anyway the war against atheists was right in front of your face ...what do you think the term "Lawless Planet' mean ...would it mean that the planet were comprise of God fearing people or anarchists and atheists?

once Captain Kirk's ex-history teacher place Nazism as the system to govern the planet those that embraced Nazism became God fearing Christians due to the symbol of The Iron Cross which is also a Christian symbol

this would mean that all those that were not Nazi Christians were therefore Atheists and the potential victims for "The Final Solution"

WAS HILTER'S GERMANY CHRISTIAN?
anyone trying to claim that the Nazis were not Christians ..would first have to prove that The Iron Cross a symbol of Nazi Germany was also not a symbol of Christianity ..which would be somewhat of a chore especially since the Pope can be seen wearing or displaying The Iron Cross
 congupnaroad
Joined: 7/22/2015
Msg: 223
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History
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 3:29:01 PM

That's why I don't believe "atheists" exist


Got any proof that atheists don't exist?
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 224
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 5:45:28 PM
@ wolf

I'l try not to waste much of my time with you (if I can) because I can see how hate fueled your stance is, but I'll address some points outta sympathy.
----------------------------------------------------


I am angry and very angry that I got to deal with brainwashed cult members like you.


You don't know me from a hole in the wall; so try to chill out man...life is short!
I mean, go pet a bunny, or take up finger painting...I'm told that coloring books also help!
Hopefully you can work your way up to doing Tai-Chi.


I show you where drinkthesunwithmyface got the information that you said he just conjured up


He didn't get jack-sh.it!
He just put up something that resonated with your atheistic lore...and thats all!


You're not even trying to be intellectually honest so what is your purpose in posting?


You blame (directly or indirectly) Christianity for atrocities even though I've showed you that there nothing in Catholic doctrine that mandates murder; much less in the New Testament....and yet you call me intellectually dishonest? Man, you are Fkn JOKE!


in fact like me an atheist?


If i was, I'd be wholeheartedly embarassed to have you in my company. The few atheists I know are largely decent pple, who are not grounded in debasing and misconstruing religion to justify their position.


Jesus was not a roman citizen


In truth it doesn't matter if he wasn't..he still got what seems like a fair hearing from Pilate, just like any Roman would have...thus, to uphold my original point...and if Jesus had defended himself (asuming he actually wanted to), he probably would have walked away.


Ever notice how all christians read the same bible but hold very different beliefs to the point that there are literally tens of thousands of different denominations?


what is up for question are the particulars
That the New testament does not mandate murder/hostility...is not even up for debate!


Yah know according to Jesus' teaching as you keep referring to all the time is for us not to judge.


where do you see me judging?...you are the one who insinuated that Christianity was behind the atrocities, and I simply asked you show me where in the Christain Bible does it uphold this...and you can't provide an answer; and yet continue to disparage the religion itself...so who is really judging here!


Jesus himself was executed next to a murderer. So you can murder and go to heaven you know that right?


wrong, he was executed along with 2 other criminals, yet only one was presumably "saved"...have you ever asked why?


If you're catholic you can be christian and murder someone confess to a priest say 10 hail marys and all is forgiven.


years ago, I was told by a Catholic, that a friend of his went to confession and felt so guilty that he confessed to armed robbery. The priest asked him to wait a few minutes in order to find out what penance would be needed as it was a strange confession...a few minutes later the cops showed up while he was sitting in the pew, and tok him away!


You can rape and murder a little girl from an atheist family and she will go to hell while you say god please forgive me and go to heaven. You know this right?


wrong, death-bed or last minute conversions or fake repentences (done for ulterior motives) will NOT get you into "heaven",...it will actually get you into hell even faster. That is the reason only 1 crimnial got saved and not the other!

In conclusion, I would just like to ask you if writing stvpid-fukery (as you have) is a talent or a learned skill?
Feel free not to respond!

=================================

Ginger


Bzzz. I saw this comment as a need for attention and I was feeling generous for a moment.


Ahhh..because no attack would be the same without you!

=====================================

@ drinker


So again, tell me without sidestepping, what is my definition of religion?


But then you say


But I've explained my opinion already in these forums, and you were probably around then (But I'm sure you have no idea what my opinion is and are just being argumentative and making assumptions). And I'm tired of doing it


Wow, I guess it must really be heavily taxing on your brain matter. Maybe some other time when you are feeling perky!

Oh and, the notion that I'm around to "read all your posts" is likley a delusion of grandeur!


Here's an analogy: We are in the grocery store. You are holding a jar of apple sauce. It's label says apple sauce, and it certainly looks like apple sauce inside the jar. I pick up a jar which appears to be containing jalapeno peppers, but the label says apple sauce. I say 'hey, this isn't apple sauce, it's jalapeno peppers'. And you say 'no it isn't, it's applesauce, you seem to be trying to call anything and everything in this store jalapeno peppers at your whim'.


So lemme take a stab at it; if I understand your blather ^ correctly.
You are saying that those who make themselves believe that the jar contains apple sauce (instead of the actual contents), are the ones who partain to a religion; and lemme again guess, they do this because they are "delusional", because if they weren't they'd know the proper contents and thus NOT be delusional, and therefore not be a part of a religion. The the pivot point is that an state of delusion is a pre-requisite for entering into a Religion (which I guess is why you are calling Nasizm a religion... because Hitler was delusional???)

Taking it a step further, I would ask why is it a delusion, and I'm sure you (and your ilk) would answer by saying...."Well, its because you can't prove anything supernatural empirically (which most of us already know cannot be done)....But the way; in the case of the apple sauce not being apple sauce can easily be done empirically...which to me your example is kinda comparing apples to peppers.

So here we are again, we are left to prove anything supernatural by empriric means; thus to tiresomely (yawn) re-iterate, ...That you could have a tea-pot up your ass, but unless you shit it out and see it, its just not there...and those who are fixated in the (irrational belief) of their being a tea-pot up one's ass.....are plain delusional, and are thus in the realm of the religious.

Correct me if I'm wrong....but don't knock yourself out as I may not even bother reading it!


With your last post, I think that we can tell that you're pretty desperate and shaky now...not to say that any of your other posts are ever very strong, but your last post is pretty damned weak.


If that is what your vanity wants you to believe...sure run with it!


Weak cry baby remarks. Every single time one of you ****ing retards includes in their posts something to the effect of "the atheists are all coming out and attacking", it is confirmed exactly what kind of person that we're dealing with, and we can tell that you have nothing and are trying to retreat without looking like you're retreating...else you don't have the sense to do so but just keep blabbering jibber jabber as if it does any good.


If you truly believe what you wrote ^; then WTF are you doing applying all this time in making lenghty responses to my posts to someone who is "re.tarded"...when a few short sentences would have sufficed!


What I'd really like to do, if anything, instead of give my definition of religion...is give you and religion a fair shake


Don't bother man, the last thing you wanna do is risk sounding "re.tarded" in your own right!

=======================================

@ Fork


That's why I don't believe "atheists" exist.


I'm starting to see your point, but to actually affirm this, would make me part of a delusionally based "religion".

=============================

@ Funch


you told me to give your God a chance in your attempt to convert me


No, what I believe I asked you to do, was to actually read scripture and put it in context, so you wouldn't be sounding so stupid!


you described yourself as being a 3d hologram linked to a central consciousness


If it were to be discovered (and research is in progress) that matter as we know it is just Holography, then this would open up way more questions than we have answers. If we are SIMULANTS; in some kinda realm or machine, then who or what is behind this!


Dude..you totally described the holodeck on Star Trek thus making you a "BORG Trekkie" and making your God "Gene Roddenberry"


ask Gene where he got the inspiration from


you said that Holograms interact with the physical world


No, I said everything that what see as physical, is Holography.
When a hologram hits another Hologram, it doesn't pass through it.
You just need to put away the reefer and quit watching SCi-Fi.


bottom line is that a female true believer would not be in the forum discussing religion


Ahhh, those "true" Believers....they are as rare as Sasquatch


I guess I'm going to have to teach you about women


Is that why you are on POF? To teach others about women!
You'd be better off writing a book and selling your discs...as you have on late nite infomercials.
But first you gotta get straight minded!


like yule liquor you also think you are a 3D hologram which means you don't even believe that you yourself exist


What would constitute a miracle is if you actually did some reading on the topic, apart from Sci-Fi sh.it you relate this to!


yule liquor's text is already in the Devil's Bible ...oops...er..I meant "The Codex Gigas" and"The Book of Scientology" also "The Book of hologram Trekkies:


Yah, Ummm...don't forget the Necronomicon... in the chapter following yours!
 wolfman4142
Joined: 12/20/2016
Msg: 225
There's no such thing as an atheist.
Posted: 1/9/2017 6:14:41 PM
Anything but admit your wrong. Anything but be intellectually honest about anything. No point in conversing with someone who refuses to address any evidence that refutes his opinion. The real reason for this yule is you can't address it because if you did you'd have to admit your cult is bullsh!t. Jesus a non roman citizen jew is going to get a fair trial by pilate where every single other jew that was crucified didn't receive the same courtesy. You didn't even realize that paul was a roman citizen. you don't even know your bible or history enough to know if it's true or not. You just sit back and let your cult tell you what to think and what to do and how to judge people by if they are "real christians" or not. You're a mindless fool following so you don't have to think for yourself because it hurts your brain too much.
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