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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Fake News is the point - its the new truth      Home login  
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 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 26
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History
Fake News is the point - its the new truthPage 2 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)

Someone needs to read a little history and learn who the Palestinians really are.
The left is quick to blame the Jews in Israel but the truth is that the Jews were also a part of the landscape just as were Arabs. Palestine has always been an imaginary country depending upon the conquerer. Never was there a country or a people called Palestine or Palestinians.

They never was a Palestinian people until recent history (after WWI) and they only become a concern after the Jews decided to make a homeland out of the dirt of the former Ottoman territory formally known as Palestine.
And while you spout the virtues of the U.N. don't forget that it was the Arabs that rejected the UN Partition Plan for Palestine which would have granted them a homeland. The Jews accepted it and created Israel on the land they were granted by the U.N. Palestinian nationalism failed because they would not accept Jewish nationalism. The reason the Zionists(Israel) succeeded is because they were tolerant and willing to compromise and accept the two state solution.
For that they were attacked.
So your much vaunted U.N. and the Arabs both failed after WWII while Israel thrives.
Merry Christmas!


This is sort of a classic American Cartoon version of what actually happened. The truth is way more complicated.

You, and everyone else, should go do a lot more research, before making such definite and self-righteous pronouncements about that region.

I'm trying to find a sentence that doesn't contain a falsehood in all that, and it's tough going. The opening sentence is sort of true, it's the same admonition I'm making, save that you follow it with a series of falsehoods. The second sentence refers to an imaginary "left," which as usual isn't defined, save for the implication that they are "people I disagree with." Then two more false statements, directly contradicted by your own next sentence which includes the phrase "territory formally known as Palestine." This is followed by a confusing statement, seemingly attacking the Arabs for "rejecting a homeland." From there, it gets more self-contradictory.

Anyway. I encourage everyone to ACTUALLY learn the ACTUAL history (or more accurately, learn enough of the alternate viewpoint histories, that they can realize that the above is bunk) of the region.

And after that, stop and think through the fact, that no matter what the history of a place or situation is, that wrong is still wrong.
 Doubleknotspy7
Joined: 8/10/2016
Msg: 27
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/24/2016 5:20:56 PM
So complicated that you can't tell us your cartoon version.
It is ignorance like yours that perpetuates the the delusion of the left.
You refute no point that I made.
Please tell us of the country called Palestine?
Please tell us that there were no Jews in the Ottoman territory called Palestine?
You have heard of the Ottoman Empire haven't you?
Please tell us who it was that attacked Arabs?
Please tell us that the Arabs in the region did not reject The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.
How can that be... isn't the U.N. incapable of error?

Please say something other than well crafted and grammatically correct gibberish?
Like my favourite English teacher used to say "without facts it's all just verbal garbage."
So go ahead tell us your version of history.
Tell us how the local Arabs in the region for centuries called themselves Palestinians.... they did not. At least not until the late 1800's and not really until after WWII.
Perhaps you could tell us about the language called Palestinian?
Don't forget to tell us how the Jews in the Ottoman Palestine region were also called Palestinians.
Perhaps you might like to tell us how Jews in Europe were once called Palestinians.
By all means say something...
The facts are until Zionism in the middle 19th century Arab populations in the territory were not united and did not consider themselves Palestinians per say.
Please tell us how what nationality Yasser Arafat was? Here's a hint - he was born in Cairo.
Please tell us your history.
But by all means please stop to consider that history is fact and that "right" or "wrong" are subjective terms.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 28
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/25/2016 6:04:25 AM
^^ Doublechinspiv:
All those questions are addressed and answered, one at a time, here:

http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Or, if you find reading a chore, watch this talk by Miko Peled.
He was born in Israel, the son of an Israeli General.
He knows what he's talking about, which is clearly not the case with you.
He also addresses some of the same commonly held fallacies, which you've repeated in your post.
All of it: "fake news".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ
It's about an hour.
Well worth a watch, for anyone who is interested in this subject.
Learn something, anything.

BTW., I doubt Igor will bother to address your post, a point at a time,
but I think you'll lose, if you want to argue history with him..
Good luck with that.
I'd love to watch though.

Merry mythmas.
Your "god" has his 2016th birthday.
It just seems like pure nepotism to me.
 Tomfiend
Joined: 10/3/2016
Msg: 29
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/25/2016 7:37:23 AM
Igor has zero ability to peruade...he is hit and run....there are many versions of history regarding israel...there is only one truth. You will never hear truth about israel from the leftist, anti-semitic trash on this board. They simply don't care about actual facts. But anybody who actually wants to know the facts can find it. Just don't rely on radical leftists to do so.....it's funny those on the right are so wrong about so much but so right about israel....and yes...Cotter and jovan are lwftist trash. If this gets me terminated, so be it. People have to stand up to scum where ever they find it. Merry Christmas to all except the leftist trash who think they know better.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 30
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/25/2016 9:04:27 AM
Well... I know I am feeling just a tad better... now that the UNSC has finally managed to formalize the long standing ruling (no US veto this time and SC vetoes can't be issued retroactively... sorry Strumpets)... that Israel's "settlement" (read: annexation, ala Sudetenland) policy is in violation of international law...

That was always the biggest and hardest hurdle to overcome... Enforcement comes much more easily after that hurdle gets "jumped"...

And... it looks like "Nuttinbutayahoo" and his Likud are starting to feel a bit panicked... Now they are lashing out at everyone who voted in favour of the law...

Stay tuned for "step 2"...
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 31
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/25/2016 11:43:24 AM
"For some reason you can't stand it that a ragtag band of European Survivors bested the ARAB combined armies...over and over, fighting for that desert land granted to them by the Nations of the World."

>>>Ah, but if Israel had oil under its sands...would we and the Brits have overthrown its democratically elected government like we did to Iran in 1953? Would we have give Saddam what he needed to send mustard gas missiles into its cities in order to keep a deadlocked war going on for 7 years? Would we have supported whatever family decided to be the defenders of the Holy City? Do dictators tend to distrust strong army leaders and well trained soldiers? What would those Arab nations who once had an empire that kicked Crusaders out in 1577 have become again if only they hadn't outside influence on their governments, in order to get their oil? Who did the British take the land away from, in order to be able to hand it to someone else? How many angels dance on a pinhead?

Funny how the Trumpets fear Mexicans coming in and building settlements and Sanctuary Cities, but don't see how Palestinians can have the same feeling about what the world (ie, the UN) even agrees is illegal. but then you have to be biased to understand their "thinking". They didn't think South Africa's Apartheid was anything to get up in arms about, just an advanced nation of "right" people surrounded by Neanderthals, doing what they considered necessary to survive while doing things their way.

https://www.thenation.com/article/meet-conservatives-who-campaigned-apartheid-south-africa/

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-19-00-margaret-thatchers-shameful-support-for-apartheid

 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 32
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History
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/25/2016 12:05:33 PM
'anti-Semitic and radical leftest'....surely you jest, who on here belongs in that type of grouping? When you insist on spouting pseudo info and claiming it to be true to fit your agenda, you cannot expect it to be believed by anyone who can look it up. You demand that anyone disagreeing is using faulty info, when in fact you surely know that you are using faulty info, and think that by raging on about those questioning your sources are some far-left, rabid hate-spewer, to throw off the BS you posting. You cannot fool people with BS, it only works on fools.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 33
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/25/2016 1:57:52 PM
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

This is pretty much a fake news site. Its owner/operator is vile. And a liar of the first water. Better to find some more neutral place to get news of Israel, you won't get it from her.

http://archive.adl.org/israel/anti_israel/alison_weir/anti-semitism.html?m_flipmode=3
 Tomfiend
Joined: 10/3/2016
Msg: 34
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 7:02:36 AM
No Dana...there is no doubt in my mind these people are antisemitic trash. When you pathologically lie about israel, refuse to ackowlesge certain truths....you are what you are. Anybody can criticise israel of course for some of its actions...but the constant lying makes you trash. These people are trash...vile scum. Sorry...but it's the truth about them. A pox on their heads.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 35
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 7:17:00 AM
The settlements should be bulldozed. And you don't accept a land agreement when it requires giving another country land that bisects your country and all control over that bisection border to another country.

I have talked to Israelis who are not of European or American stock. They say it is those 'israelis" who are causing all the problems because of arrogance ( The same stock of people who supported apartheid in South Africa). The people posting here sort of suggest that they a have a point.

People do not dislike all Jews. Like all groups and people, there are some in the group, acting as a group, whose actions you can't support. It's the actions in the name of the people that's the problem.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 36
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History
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 7:40:24 AM
^^^^
Yep ... that's it!

 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 37
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 9:44:43 AM

People do not dislike all Jews.

I know that you (and probably many other people) may think that my views are a little "out there", Dee, but actually I don't regognise the entire "categorisation" of jews", certainly not as any sort of "race", it's just another "belief", to me.

Any more than I recognise "black" as a "race" either. There is more genetic variation in the continent of Africa alone , than there is in the rest of the world, combined.

But then some people also talk about "Hispanics", as though speaking a language "means" something.. , anyone can learn a language.
"Jewish" is a religion.
Anyone can "learn" that too, and many people have joined, and left the religion, throughout history.

There are no genes which are exclusively "jewish", anymore than there are any genes restricted to "Hispanics", or "blacks".

We're one big melting pot. -And that's not just a recent development, it was always thus.
"We've" (earlier humans) shagged both "Denisovans", and Neanderthals. (And I'm speaking from bitter, personal experience, there. )

"Jews" still have the same sort of "rules of entry", regarding ancestry, that Hitler used to determine "purity".
One "jewish" grandparent.

The only difference is; that whereas Hitler thought them to be an "inferior" "race", the "jews" regard themselves as a "superior" one.
It's no wonder Marilyn is such an admirer.
I think that Hitler was a complete tw@t. :laugh@
I don't subscribe to the notion of "race" at all.
I think it's all bollocks.
A mistake.
A remnant of our Victorian obsession with 'classifications', and a seriously unhealthy obsession with filing.

Much less, when that claimed "race" includes not only people with blue eyes, and blond hair, from Norway and the Netherlands, and Northern Europe, but also dark-skinned people from Spain, the Middle East, and even Ethiopia.
And yet they still claim that it's "genetic".

In a way, "judaism", as an alleged "race", demonstrates nicely, the fallacy of the entire paradigm of "race".
Or the ridiculous notion that the physical characteristics which we all inherited from our parents, somehow "defines" us, neatly into such categories.

Throughout human history, humans have moved about, leaving their genetic 'markers'. There never was any such thing as a "pure race", and there never can be.


I'm not "antisemitic". The Arabs are "Semites" too.
It's time we dropped all these old beliefs.
Including the religious myths which first inspired "israel".
They never had a "right" to settlement there, in the first place.

It's interesting that European "jews" still use that "right", despite their alleged ancestors not being there for 3,000 years,
while the actual people, who were driven from their homes, (who are also "semites", if the term really means anything anyway) just a few years before, the Arabs, are denied any sort of "right of return", to a land their ancestors had lived on for thousands of years, without ever having left, before.



Merry mythmas.
3 Hos, etc
"These are my principles, if you don't like them, I have others."
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 38
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History
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 12:59:45 PM
Doubleknotspy7 @ msg 34:

Your post proves that you didn't read what I wrote.


You refute no point that I made.


You didn't make any points. You posted false statements. To "make a point," you must report ACTUAL facts, and show logically how they demonstrate or support a contention.


So complicated that you can't tell us your cartoon version.


This bit of insanity is proof by itself, that you didn't read what I said, or at least that you "adjusted" what I wrote in your mind,until it said something else. Unlike you, I do NOT substitute one cartoon version of history for another, and pretend it's "truth."

Now you've added even more spurious nonsense to your mess, which again does not need "refuting," since all of it is based on your own refusal to read or understand what others have and have not said.

Again, I will point out... that what many of us refer to as The Middle East, has among the most complex histories of the planet; those complications are made up of more than science, more than religious beliefs, and can't be explained comprehensively from any single point of view. What makes the mess even worse, is that the very real and very deep past, that the peoples' there and elsewhere have to deal with, there are a myriad of completely modern issues, that have nothing at all to do with the ancient issues, that make it impossible to use only ONE set of factors in attempting to improve things there. There are localities on this planet where even older traditional animosities exist, but which the world as a whole ignores, because they aren't on a patch of land that the rest of us have a modern concern about.

Various people argue from a relatively few different essential principles. Those include

* the idea of a natural homeland for each language and/or culture group. Sounds good, as long as you ignore practical concerns, culture-linked hostilities, and the mass-movement of peoples over time.

* rule of conquest. Not the most popular these days, especially amongst the conquered peoples.

* rule of assumed or "deduced" cultural superiority. Also not overtly popular these days, but a lot of people support a disguised version of it.

* rule of "need." The idea that each independent state has basic needs (resources, access to markets, etc) that have to be arranged, in order to prevent them being oppressed, or being driven to war to acquire those needs.

* the weirdest, is what might be called a "rule by who had it last." This one is very popular, but most people who adhere to it, don't even realize that that's what they are doing. So they might support Arabic rule of the Middle East, because there are a lot of Arabs there right now. Or they might go the other way, and side with Israel, because they won the Six Day War, over half a century ago. They might support the settlements, because they are angry at all possible Muslims, and assume that anything that annoys Muslims is a good thing. Or they might go the other way, and decide that since Israel gained control over the areas in question by conquest, that the Israelis are inherently in the wrong.

None of those principles leads to an irrefutable result.

So again, I encourage each person to look much more deeply than any short discussion or claimed "true history" from one side can convey.
 Doubleknotspy7
Joined: 8/10/2016
Msg: 39
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 6:48:08 PM
Verbal garbage...
Refute a point.
My points are clearly made yet you sidestep every one all the while showing your ignorance of historical fact.
Why do you attempt to cloud the matter by introducing the "Middle East" into the discussion?
The discussion of the land in dispute was limited to Israel not the entire Middle East.
Israel (Jews) do not challenge the right of Arabs in the greater Middle East. In fact it is many Arabs (not all) who want Israel out of the Middle East entirely. Again the Jews agreed to the original Two State Solution then created Israel while the Arabs went to war over the plan.

You are right it is complicated. But your beloved U.N. settled the conflict in 1948. Too bad the Arab countries in the region rejected that "two state solution" . Do you deny that historical fact?
I am glad you finally read about the Six Days War perhaps you should educate yourself as to the Arab-Israeli War of 1948.
Perhaps it is just your habit writing a whole lot while saying absolutely nothing but please make an attempt to clarify historical facts.
So tell us historically who were the Palestinians?
Tell us who are the Palestinian people today and when did they come to be known as the Palestinians?
Please try to say something.
That is something more relevant than 4 paragraphs of... "it's complicated".
 Tomfiend
Joined: 10/3/2016
Msg: 40
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 7:24:36 PM
How has israel been affected by the vote:

"Trump’s choice for U.S. ambassador to Israel, attorney David Friedman, is a vigorous supporter of Beit El, one of Israel’s largest West Bank settlements and has been skeptical of a two-state solution."

Things are looking up for Israel. It's been years since it had a good friend in the whitehouse. Without US support, the UN is meaningless.

Spy, hard to say igor is intentionally being misleading. The guy is simply anal..and another apparent victim of the anti Israel propaganda machine. These pepole are know nothings. That much is obvious.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 41
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 7:36:11 PM
Doubleknotspy7- He didn't say "it's complicated", you said that, but in actuality, it IS complicated.
You see, things happened before you came into the world, believe it or not.
We are talking about historical events, facts.
HOWEVER, facts can be misconstrued by people with an agenda.
Agenda's such as insisting on placing people, places and things into convenient little boxes.
Boxes that narrow minded people construct because it makes it easier for them to argue their biases while learning nothing.
Perhaps if certain people would stop the practice of confirmation bias and actually open a book and educate themselves, humans might actually manage to carry on in the world, rather than making silly declarations on a public forum that have NO basis in fact.
But, hey, carry on, I wouldn't want to shatter your angry little world of self delusion, you do seem to take such joy in it.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 42
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 7:59:31 PM

Verbal garbage...



After that pile of irrelevant nonsense Double-Zero puts out... he still has the comedic talent to say that after getting "owned" by Igor...

All he can manage is... well... more silliness... I guess that's where the "Double Zero" comes from...

It's amazing, the level of irrational responses... trying to deny the reality... He seems almost panic-stricken...

I guess that's what happens... when you simply can't accept the reality that the SC has finally upheld the illegality of Israel's presence in the West Bank and East Jerusalem... and has demanded, as resolution, an end to, and removal of, the settlements...

The debate on the legality of the settlements is done... Israel has no "claim of right" over those territories... No amount of "distraction"... "deflection"... or other nonsense... will change that...

Refute a point.

Perhaps you should make a relevant point... instead of trying to distract from reality...

I wonder if you will still be spouting the same nonsense... when the sanctions start to be proposed... Especially now that the BDS movement has a clear, formal legal foundation for their advocacy (to be perfectly honest... they always did... the binding ruling of illegality was issued years ago... it just took this long for the SC to legally formalize it)...

The whole of the world will be talking about sanctions, embargoes and boycotts... and Double Zero will still be yelling "Look over there!"...
 Doubleknotspy7
Joined: 8/10/2016
Msg: 43
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 8:51:20 PM
Owned... thats funny.
As for he didn't say "complicated"... yes he did.
But you have to look back in history to see that.
Some in here refuse to acknowledge historical fact.
I agree it is complicated.
No dispute there.
What is reality Jo? Do you even know what the original statement was that I replied to?
The original statement was that Israel "stole the land"?
So from whom did they steal it?

Remember the Arabs of Palestine did not accept the UN Partition Plan and there fore did not form a country.
The truth of the matter is that the Arabs of Palestine now called the Palestinians have been pawns of the surrounding Arab countries since 1948.
They could care less about the Arab Palestinians except to further their agenda.
They simply did not want the Jewish Palestinians to form a Jewish state.
Obviously Israel does have a right and a claim to the land as they are now and have been for years, developing said land. The land which no other country claimed and they gained after being attacked.
Now Israel would revert back to the original Partition plan if only the Arabs would accept their existence.
You see it is all about the negotiation and "Lame Duck Pres. Obama closed any negotiation of a settlement with his abstention from the vote. Land is the leverage by which a "Two State" settlement will be reached.
Israel should not relent on land until the Palestinian people unify and accept Israel's existence.
Hamas certainly does not recognize Israel and Fatah did not in their 1964 Constitution.
The history is very complicated but the path forward is simple. It stars with Arab acceptance of Israel.
Then the world can settle the land disputes.

Try to focus 42 and for once try to add to the discussion?
Your ad hominem attacks are just as childish today as ever.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 44
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/26/2016 9:26:15 PM
Doubleknotspy7- Actually, Igor did as good a job as anyone could do of TRYING to get you to see that this is an issue that goes WAY past what is going on NOW.
He even broke it down into individual points, as much as possible.
Did you read what he wrote?
I doubt it.
He used the words complex and complicated, I did NOT see where he just said "it's complicated." (I actually DID read what he said, that comes in handy during debates)
Historically, this has been going on for a VERY long time.
THIS, sums it up, it's a long read, somehow, I doubt you'll bother.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

"Israel should not relent on land until the Palestinian people unify and accept Israel's existence." ????
"The world can settle the land disputes" ?????

Is that SO?
My goodness, we should just send you over there, since no one else ever tried these things ALREADY??!
 Tomfiend
Joined: 10/3/2016
Msg: 45
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/27/2016 6:06:11 AM
Spy is exactly right. He is simply calling out the revisionists. Not only shouldn't israel relent, it won't relent. Its in perpetual war. It will ignore the UN and nothing the UN or the world can do about it...Not with Trump in the whitehouse. Watch and see.

You people, including the leftist trash, piling up on spy changes nothing. Keep on whining for all the good it does you...but its very telling you allow the vile antisemites to lie without challenge.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 46
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/27/2016 6:15:56 AM
Let's not go to war over Israel, please.

I am sure that Trump is beginning to consider that Bush 1 lost his run for a second term because Israel didn't want him ( he wanted to cut payments and opposed settlements) .

( please don't respond with the two percent lie)

It is not the power. That is admirable and great. It is denying that it exists that is troubling.

Again, why accept a deal where the land that is supposedly mine is divided into two parts, separated by land owned and controlled by people who send rockets to my land? How about a better deal?

(Tomfiend,girl,you sure have creative ways of spelling foul words. LOL. )
 Tomfiend
Joined: 10/3/2016
Msg: 47
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/27/2016 6:31:00 AM
Dee, I have no issue with you. I get you are clueless, always have been, and you are not part of the leftist trash crowd. It is impossible to find apt adjectives to describe the leftist trash here. So I do what I can.
 LLove2LaughToo
Joined: 6/6/2016
Msg: 48
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/27/2016 6:47:00 AM

Msg: 46
Tomfiend,girl,you sure have creative ways of spelling foul words. LOL.


I guess you condone the vile language spouted by some of the frustrated right wing pro Israel crowd of this forum. It is a mystery to me why anyone still believes that legitimate criticism of Israel, and opposition to some of Israel's policies is anti-semitic.
 Tomfiend
Joined: 10/3/2016
Msg: 49
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/27/2016 7:01:03 AM
Bull love. This trash goes far beyond legitimate criticism. Anybody has the right to challenge settlements, occupation, policies. Only the vile antisemitic leftist trash lies nonstop, fabricates, attacks israel's right to exist. These people are as antisemitic as people who think blacks should return to Africa are racist.

Don't obfuscate their lies as nothing but legitimate criticism. That is disingenuous at its core. It would be impossible to be more antisemitic than the leftist trash here.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 50
Fake News is the point - its the new truth
Posted: 12/27/2016 7:18:05 AM

Try to focus 42 and for once try to add to the discussion?



Just as I said... When faced with reality... Double Zero just doubles-down on ridiculous and irrelevant...

Maybe you should write a letter to the Security Council... You seem to "know" something that they don't... Perhaps some "fine point" of international law that they are just too dim to grasp without your help...

Truly pathetic...



"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life."

Frank Zappa
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