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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone befo      Home login  
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 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 26
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?Page 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
1.Using that logic is like saying: When playing poker I will either get dealt pocket A's or I won't, so that means I have a 50% change of getting pocket A's.


2. Still not proof of an invisible man in the sky.


3. Actually there are millions of reason why those same rules applied.


4. This is where you really fail, as it is just the opposite, as the only way things could have ended up this way is if they had developed over time. To prove this, we can simply rewind the clock and you see all the parts fall into place which quickly disproves any creation theories.


Bottom line, just because you do not understand something does not mean some invisible man in the sky did it, it just means you do not understand it.
 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 27
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 9:06:09 AM
^^^^ Lolahole... I do believe that what I posted is far, far over your head... pretty obvious by your response. Sorry you didn't get it.
 Butterchickenchuck
Joined: 9/18/2015
Msg: 28
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 9:43:46 AM
I believe in a past life, LOLTrump and lyinjovan were lovers
 TheRevenant2017
Joined: 5/5/2017
Msg: 29
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 11:29:02 AM



1) Your assertion something is a fact does not make it so.
We agree. That is a fact. That is why I try to point people in the direction of acquiring the necessary knowledge to enable them to reach a conclusion based on a solid foundation.


2) Many scientists are ruled strictly by logic.... they are all wrapped up in the laws of the Universe and thus it is hard for them to contemplate a God like entity....
Being ruled by logic isn't a problem. If there was a god, there would be a logical avenue to either prove it or show a very high likelyhood based on facts/reality.


he doesn't fit within the rules after all.
For something to exist, it has to follow the laws of nature. Nature does not make exceptions until it is _proved_ that it does.


there is plenty of evidence the Universe we are in was in fact 'created" through the big bang,
I'm pleased you placed the word "creation" in quotes because, the big bang was a transformation not a creation. Nothing was created as a result of the big bang, a very large number of "things" resulted from its transformation.


there is no reason to believe any of our Universal Rules or laws were applicable before that creation.
Actually, there is. The big bang is the result of the passage of time. The passage of time is what caused the big bang to happen, and the elasticity of time is what makes the laws of physics remain constant. In addition to that, Einstein's GR predicts the existence of the Big Bang singularity. That's where the Big Bang theory originated (George Lemaitre). Some people like to speculate that the laws of physics may have changed during the Big Bang but, there is no good foundation for that belief other than, it happened a long time ago and we cannot "back" measure exactly what happened then. What is very likely (actually, a certainty) is that there are laws of physics we don't know about that influenced how the Big Bang happened.


We can only speculate about what came before...like "membranes" colliding with each other.
At least at this time, I don't see how science could possibly figure out what was before the singularity. Science doesn't even know what a black hole is made of. Some things may be impossible to determine.


I simply believe the odds of that happening as a Random event as too astronomical to actually have happened.
That reasoning has quite a few flaws. I'll mention a couple of them. The first one using an example, take 8 decks of cards (common number of decks used in Blackjack), shuffle the cards, the number of possible arrangements of those 8 decks is (8 * 52)! (! = factorial) that's an astronomical number. Just for fun, make the problem worse, use 100 decks, now the number of arrangements is (100 * 52)!, the result greatly exceeds the estimated number of atoms in the universe. Using the logic that the universe can only be a result of a god means that after shuffling the 100 decks the resulting arrangement must have been the result of divine intervention since the probability of that particular arrangement is so close to zero, it can reasonably be considered "impossible" and, that is true for any arrangement of that many cards. Yet, everytime the cards are shuffled one of these "impossible" arrangements will result.

Probability cannot be used to support the belief in a god because, just as in the deck of cards, the 10^82 atoms in the universe will forcefully be arranged a unique way in a particular instant of time and, that is true with or without a god. Therefore it cannot be claimed that any particular arrangement is a proof of god's existence. It cannot even be used to suggest the possibility of a god.

Consider this, there are roughly 7 billion people on earth. That means there are, at least, 7 billion ways of making a sentient being. That's without including animals, that while not what we consider sentient, many animals have self-awareness which is a form of sentience. They also have some intelligence, therefore intelligence isn't unique to humans.

Additionally, the reason that life and sentience seem so incredibly rare is because all we know is earth. Life and sentience may be a lot more common than we currently believe.

There really is nothing that leads to a belief in god being justified other than humans wanting to feel special.

The key is knowledge and understanding. With both in sufficient quantity, it is reasonably obvious that there is no god. The problem is knowledge and understanding cannot be given. They have to be acquired by each individual.


We will have to agree to disagree on the benefits vs. the detriments of religion.
That's reasonable. We agree on disagreeing on that one.

 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 30
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 11:41:47 AM

Just for fun, make the problem worse, use 100 decks, now the number of arrangements is (100 * 52)!, the result greatly exceeds the estimated number of atoms in the universe.


Here is a great video that explains 52 factorial.


QI Card Shuffling - 52 Factorial

Published on Nov 5, 2012

The chances that anyone has ever shuffled a pack of cards in the same way twice in the history of the world are infinitesimally small, statistically speaking. The number of possible permutations of 52 cards is '52 factorial' otherwise known as 52! or 52 shriek. This is 52 times 51 times 50 . . . all the way down to one. Here's what that looks like:
80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,
975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLIvwtIuC3Y
 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 31
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 1:08:55 PM
I get the card argument Flman... but you know... I play the lotto with what, about a 1 in `14 000,000 chance I am going to win. And yea... somebody wins.... but you know what else I know to an absolute fact... I am not going to be one of those persons.

So again I reiterate.... no chance in hell our Universe just appeared in the manner that Hawkings speculates in his Grand Design... and here we all are. No way. Either there are an infinite number of universes, which greatly increases the odds of our being here... or there was some sort of superior entitiy responsible. Choose one or the other. If ours is but one of an infinite number of Bubble Universes... so be it. To me that means we will all get the chance to live our lives over again and maybe correct some of the mistakes we made.... given infinite time and space... that is the only reasonable conclusion.
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 32
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 1:40:29 PM

Either there are an infinite number of universes, which greatly increases the odds of our being here... or there was some sort of superior entitiy responsible. Choose one or the other. If ours is but one of an infinite number of Bubble Universes... so be it.



Nope.

black-or-white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 33
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 3:03:44 PM
Well yea there is the... we are here by chance despite one in an astronomical odds argument. . . and if you want to believe that, no skin off my nose.

What other alternatives are you suggesting.... lets see if you can come up with anything that appears to be at all reasonable. I'll wait. LOL
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 34
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 3:20:01 PM

What other alternatives are you suggesting.... lets see if you can come up with anything that appears to be at all reasonable. I'll wait. LOL



tu quoque
You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.

Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 35
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 3:54:09 PM
^^^^diversion.... why am I not surprised.
 TheRevenant2017
Joined: 5/5/2017
Msg: 36
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 4:57:31 PM

but you know what else I know to an absolute fact... I am not going to be one of those persons.
The only people who can state with absolute certainty that they won't win are those who do not hold a ticket. If they hold a ticket, the most likely outcome is that they won't win, yet in spite of that, it is very likely that someone will win.

The problem is that you are still convinced that the universe was created. The universe wasn't created. Even nothingness is something. Creation is unnecessary, making god an explanation for something that didn't happen.


we are here by chance despite one in an astronomical odds argument
The fallacy in that statement is "one" in astronomical odds. Not only the odds aren't one in any number, it's much more likely that the odds are 1:1, in other words, inevitable. For instance, pour water in the emptiness of space and it will evaporate almost instantly, that's inevitable. Then the vapor will freeze almost instantly, that's inevitable too.

As I said previously, no one can convince anyone else that there is no god. It is an inevitable logical conclusion derived from a sufficient amount of knowledge and understanding.

At this point, the logical conclusion seems to be that, we'll have to agree on disagreeing.
 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 37
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 5:05:09 PM
I am hung up on creation because the "big bang" or the singularity created the universe. Until then there were particles flitting into and out of existence. I agree that it is hard to imagine "nothing"..but that does not mean non existence has no choice to result in existence. The universe was not inevitable, certainly not in its current form.

.
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 38
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/10/2017 5:49:46 PM

^^^^diversion.... why am I not surprised.


You claiming me pointing out your argument was logical fallacies is not a diversion, it is a fact.
 RenissanceMan68
Joined: 12/3/2016
Msg: 39
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 4:55:55 AM
Hey frank?
Oh, here you are! Silly,thing. You wanna chase me around the forums?
No sweat buddy boy.

What 'scam' was I pulling?
Why didnt Columbus discover America?
Whats my sister do for a living?

You have some unanswered questions that originate from your trolling.
By all means, finish what you started
 TheRevenant2017
Joined: 5/5/2017
Msg: 40
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 6:14:28 AM



I am hung up on creation because the "big bang" or the singularity created the universe.
The problem in that statement is the meaning assigned to the word "created".

The critical step in understanding what existence is, is understanding that "nothing" does not have a single representation. This can be made more evident using basic algebra. Consider the following...

X = 0

In above case, X can only equal 0. There is no other possibility. Now let's consider ...

X + Y = 0

Now there are an infinite number of values X and Y that make the equation true. The important thing to note is that the result is still "nothing". That hasn't changed. For every value of X there is a value Y that makes the result equal "nothing".

Extend that to account for what we see out there and you get...

X + Y + Z +..... + K = 0

where the number of terms X, Y, Z, K is extremely large (possibly infinite... finite or otherwise doesn't make any difference) and you get a reasonable idea of what existence is.

No need for god and nothing really unusual in what is going on.

A simpler visualization would be an alphabet soup... no matter what its configuration is at any point in time... it is still an alphabet soup ("nothing" in the case of existence)... one that is continuously being stirred... as a result just about any sequence of letters is not only possible but, it is very likely to happen since the thing is constantly changing. That will inevitably result in letters forming the word "life", "intelligence", "sentience" or any other word/state for a short time (one that we as humans perceive as a "long time" when in reality, it is an infinitessimally small amount of time.) Additionally, those words may appear more than once in that soup, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes not.

The transformations in that "soup" always take place according to the laws of thermodynamics. Existence (or what is the same, non-existence) is like an infinitely dimensional mesh where changes in the energy contents of one point result in changes in the energy contents of another point and those changes ripple (chaotically) in the entire mesh (kind of like playing with Jello.)


but that does not mean non existence has no choice to result in existence.
There is no choice because they are the same thing. What we perceive as existence is just one of the infinite possible representations of non-existence. It still all adds up to "nothing".


The universe was not inevitable, certainly not in its current form.
The universe/existence is inevitable. At first one would think that a particular state of existence may or may not occur but, given an infinite amount of time stirring it, eventually every single possible configuration of it will take place, therefore that is inevitable too.

That's how you get a universe/existence from "nothing" and it is pretty much what the article I mentioned in an earlier post says. Logic and the laws of thermodynamics make it reasonably clear and even intuitive. Understanding all the details of how energy clusters and dissipates, that is thing that requires beating the heck out of every neuron in the brain. What's a black hole made of.... we probably need a six pack of Leonhard Eulers to figure that one out.


 RenissanceMan68
Joined: 12/3/2016
Msg: 41
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 7:42:34 AM
Soinds like 'science' has become a religion of its own. Except this religion keeps contradicting itself as it grows.

At any rate...
“God never wrought miracle to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it. It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.”

“I may say that the impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God; but whether this is an argument of real value, I have never been able to decide. I am aware that if we admit a first cause, the mind still craves to know whence it came and how it arose. Nor can I overlook the difficulty from the immense amount of suffering through the world. I am, also, induced to defer to a certain extent to the judgment of the many able men who have fully believed in God; but here again I see how poor an argument this is. The safest conclusion seems to be that the whole subject is beyond the scope of man’s intellect; but man can do his duty.”

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the Mysterious — the knowledge of the existence of something unfathomable to us, the manifestation of the most profound reason coupled with the most brilliant beauty. I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, or who has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves. I am satisfied with the mystery of life’s eternity and with the awareness of — and glimpse into — the marvelous construction of the existing world together with the steadfast determination to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature. This is the basics of cosmic religiosity, and it appears to me that the most important function of art and science"

"“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.”
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 42
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 7:49:15 AM
I think maybe "big bangs" are cyclical.
Black holes are made of.....everything near them.

If you think of the amount of "space" in an atom, I think that black holes smoosh them down, [/Science Term] until there's no space left.
The "singularity" could have just been the ultimate black hole, which reached some sort of 'critical mass'.
Then all it needed was "one tanny wafffer",
And boom.
Mr Creosote.

Statistically, the notion of "reincarnation" makes no sense.
Originally, there were no "souls" here, at all, because there was no life.
Is it only human "souls" which endure in this alleged way?
What about the other apes?
At what point in history/evolution did this alleged phenomena begin?
Where were the "souls which can't be destroyed" "living", before there was life on this planet?

People should really just accept that their brains, and the senses which feed them with information, are fallible.
Actually, they're pretty shit, and can't be relied upon to deliver reliable information.
Hallucinations, or "waking dreams", or just confirmation bias, can all corrupt data.

When someone tells you that they "saw it with their own eyes", they probably believe that they did,
But this known weakness in human perception has been exploited forever, by people called "magicians"
Like "jesus", the "Zeigfreid and Roy" of the noughty-noughties, but without the Roy.......or the tigers.
"Ta Da! And now it's wine!"
*crowd gasps, and applause*

That's why science likes to measure things, and to cross-check.
"Did you see that?"
"See what?"
"Oh....erm... nothing...."

We can persuade our brains to accept or "believe" in almost anything.
Depression and "love" both share that same sort of "self-hypnosis",
and CBT techniques can "cure" you of both.

As for "god" creating anything, and the chances of that happening,
What are the chances of "god" just happening, and who "created" him?

It's just argument from ignorance; the "god" of the gaps.
Which is partly why belief in "gods" first happened.
But there was no internet back then, so....

Now, we know lots of stuff.
Not all of it, but lots more than people did, when they invented "gods"
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 43
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 7:55:04 AM

At any rate...


Copying and pasting other peoples words without attribution is plagiarism.


Either way, you left out this part:



Not every branch of science can foretell the future — paleontology can’t — but many can and with stunning accuracy. If you want to know when the next eclipse of the Sun will be, you might try magicians or mystics, but you’ll do much better with scientists. They will tell you where on Earth to stand, when you have to be there, and whether it will be a partial eclipse, a total eclipse, or an annular eclipse. They can routinely predict a solar eclipse, to the minute, a millennium in advance. You can go to the witch doctor to lift the spell that causes your pernicious anaemia, or you can take vitamin Bl2. If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate. If you’re interested in the sex of your unborn child, you can consult plumb-bob danglers all you want (left-right, a boy; forward-back, a girl – or maybe it’s the other way around), but they’ll be right, on average, only one time in two. If you want real accuracy (here, 99 per cent accuracy), try amniocentesis and sonograms. Try science.

Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science? There isn’t a religion on the planet that doesn’t long for a comparable ability — precise, and repeatedly demonstrated before committed skeptics — to foretell future events. No other human institution comes close.


Carl Sagan
 TheRevenant2017
Joined: 5/5/2017
Msg: 44
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 9:08:35 AM


@
Soinds like 'science' has become a religion of its own.
^^^ mediocre mind... mediocre statements. Won't even correct its typos. Attempts to pass science as religion in an effort to convince himself other people are as mediocre as he is.


@
If you think of the amount of "space" in an atom, I think that black holes smoosh them down, [/Science Term] until there's no space left.
That part is reasonable but, there's more to it than that. A black hole isn't made of any of the known natural elements nor any of the man-made elements. One reasonable speculation is that the subatomic particles arrange themselves in a crystalline structure (this has been "observed" in close to absolute zero experiments on matter), that would lead to the conclusion that a black hole is simply a gigantic atom made of all identical "unit particles" (reasonable speculation but there are problems with it) a "primordial atom" (and that speculation has problems too.)

A black hole is a trophy gravity gets for winning over all other physical forces. If it were known what those things are made of, it would cause a quantum leap in physics and human knowledge in general. It would be a "big bang" of knowledge and understanding.


The "singularity" could have just been the ultimate black hole, which reached some sort of 'critical mass'.
That sounds reasonable and it exposes one of the problems in the "a black hole is a big atom" speculation since the singularity was smaller than any black hole, there must be an even "tighter" arrangement than "regular" black holes. IOW, not all black holes are equal.


It's just argument from ignorance; the "god" of the gaps.
That's what caused the "consolidation" of gods. At one time, every natural thing that was not understood, which was pretty much everything, was a god of some kind. The Sun was a god, there was a god of the wind, a god of the rain, a god of the earth... etc, etc. gods galore. Simple solution: don't understand it, make a god out of it.

@
Copying and pasting other peoples words without attribution is plagiarism.
He deserves some credit for figuring out that it is better for him to copy genius than it is to create more mediocrity. His initial choices of what to copy reveal that, even in the application of that method, he still has a long way to go.

 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 45
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 11:13:04 AM
Sorry flman, if the math was that clear, then science would be able to prove the non-existence of god...and yet the majority of scientists still believe, more or less in God, or at least accept his possibility. Only mediocre thinkers, like lying jovan, so easily waive off the possibility of God. Yes hawkings is an atheist...he is but one scientist. We can all agree though there is likely no personal god.

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56afa292e4b057d7d7c7a1e5/amp?espv=1

As for reincarnation. ..who knows if the energy of the soul can go on. That too is speculation. None of us definitively have the answers. The mystery is in not knowing.
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 46
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 11:46:32 AM

Sorry flman, if the math was that clear, then science would be able to prove the non-existence of god...


That has already been done.

As all proof of a god has been refuted.

If you have any new proof, please feel free to submit it.





...and yet the majority of scientists still believe, more or less in God, or at least accept his possibility.


Nope, this is a lie.



https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56afa292e4b057d7d7c7a1e5/amp?espv=1


Ah yes a bunch of 1/2 quotes and people speculating on the views of 12 people.

Not sure why you bother to post it, but it shows you really are getting desperate.





Only mediocre thinkers, like lying jovan, so easily waive off the possibility of God.


Well lyinjovan looks like you just called yourself out.
 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 47
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 11:53:04 AM
Lolahole.... let me know when you can prove to us you are smarter than the 51% of scientists who believe in god or those scientists identified in the Huffington Post article who recognize his possible existence.. And if you have mathematical proof in the non-existence of God, I suggest you let the rest of the world in on it. You name will go down in History as the greatest mathematician of all time. I'll be waiting lolololAHOLE.
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 48
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 12:41:03 PM

let me know when you can prove to us you are smarter than the 51% of scientists who believe in god or those scientists identified in the Huffington Post article who recognize his possible existence..


The fact that I need to point out to you that many of those people do not beleive in god, and also that many of them lived during a time that if you came out agianst god they killed you, highlights the fact that you do not seem to understand.

This is proves you are a troll, an applogist or just very simple minded.




And if you have mathematical proof in the non-existence of God, I suggest you let the rest of the world in on it.


0=0

There I just proved that god does not exist.

Please feel free to refute that.




You name will go down in History as the greatest mathematician of all time.


Then let it be so.
 lyinjovan
Joined: 4/3/2017
Msg: 49
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 12:50:24 PM
You poor delusional sap. So sad. :-)
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 50
Reincarnation - Have you ever felt like you've known/met someone before?
Posted: 5/11/2017 1:04:51 PM
Ah yes, the old stand by.

When you get your azz handed to you, do not try and refute those facts, just go straight to the ad hominem.
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