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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?      Home login  
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 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 26
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?Page 2 of 2    (1, 2)
CressB- And yet, you can tell me that "wiki is a magical thing" as if I don't have sense enough to look it up?!
I assure you that I DO.
I've seen the information you provided before.
When I said it was a mystery to me, it's the mind set I don't understand.
If you come across a woman who is disrespectful or insensitive, walk away.
People do that every day.
I STILL don't get why some people think a few bad people of either gender is a reason to think EVERY one of that gender is the same.
That's NOT the case.
Also, people have a tendency to find what they look for, confirmation bias.
But I won't insult you by suggesting that you don't understand confirmation bias, like you did with me concerning the MGTOW movement.
See how that works?
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 27
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 5:33:21 PM

But I won't insult you by suggesting that you don't understand confirmation bias, like you did with me concerning the MGTOW movement.


Yet still nobody's addressed the fact (honestly or sensitively) that I was insulted? This thread's got me in a snarky mood so perhaps you'll forgive me then.


a few bad people


That's the problem, it's not just "a few bad people". I myself was accused of rape and molestation of my daughter by my daughter's mother just for sheer revenge because our relationship didn't go the way she thought that it should (problems with monogamy on her end) and that was shortly after we broke up. She also accused me of punching her in the stomach while she was pregnant and threatening to kill her and myself to with my AK-47. She even got a restraining order under these false pretenses (without a shred of any kind of substantiation) and I actually ended up loosing my .45 smith & Wesson to a pawn shop because they wouldn't let me get it out of pawn because of the restraining order. Not to mention the numerous other problems I've had concerning dishonesty, insensitivity, double standards, and an attitude of entitlement with many other women.

So your idea that this it just a few bad people just falls flat on the floor for me in the face of what I've seen/been through so far.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 28
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 6:02:51 PM
CressB- When you say insulted, I take it you are talking about the Samsonite luggage/baggage comment?
I went back and saw that.
I didn't say anything because I wasn't sure she meant that as an insult, but then re-reading it, yes, she did.
But it's not for me to apologize, I didn't say it.
Your story about your ex is awful.
I don't know her side, but if what you say happened is what she did, then it's women like her that I can't stand and cause the rest of us a lot of grief.
I have my own story about my ex, I just try not to put too much personal stuff on POF because there are people here that if they see it, they will use it against you later. DIRTY, so dirty.
I have talked about my love for my children a little, bragged some (shoot me) and one pof member hit me in THAT spot, about my children. I managed to control myself, but I was VERY upset by that.
If something like that upset me on a forum, I can't imagine what that period of your life must have been like for you.
Hurt, angry, enraged even, sad, mad, a lot of things.
I'm capable of great empathy and this one stuck a nerve.
I would NEVER do such a thing, MANY women would NEVER do it.
You got custody though, so karma and justice won in the end.
Here is a woman telling you that I'm NOT like your ex, I know there are others who aren't either.
I'm not going to go all self help and doctor Phil on you, the work to see that there are good woman in the world is up to you, I'll just leave it at that.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 29
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 6:20:12 PM

Samsonite luggage/baggage comment?


That did not insult me at all. The things that miffed me are the comments I quoted from her in messages 18 and 19. In msg 19 I thought that I broke it down pretty well why I was insulted. In msg 18 I did not brake it down, but it was an attitude that women are the only ones that go through such things and are just helpless victims without any part to play in how things ended up that way. THAT offends me.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 30
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 6:43:39 PM
CressB- There are always two sides to a story and the truth usually falls somewhere in the middle.
(This comment is in regards to your last one, NOT your story about your ex, which is still tempting me to loose my dinner, what a terrible thing for her to do.)
There is plenty of wrong to go around with both genders, so we agree there.
Attitudes are individual.
I can't control women who have bad attitudes any more than you can control men with bad attitudes.
What I am saying, and will KEEP saying, is that I do NOT lump an entire gender into one category because of the actions of a few.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 31
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 6:59:53 PM
^^^ but with the power through legal and social means that women have to just potentially completely and utterly destroy a man's life, its has become a risk that any sane man would be a fool not to be extremely concerned about/weary of and quite frankly afraid of. How can you start in love with the concern about whether or not this relationship will leave you financially destitute or potentially in jail, just on the wims of someone that it may take you years to learn the truth about. The risks are insane!
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 32
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/21/2017 7:11:43 PM
CressB- It's risky no matter what.
Not all stories end so badly, but some do, like yours.
The end of my marriage wasn't exactly a fairy tale either.

Lot's of people get hurt, get damaged, get bitter, if it is the LAST thing I do, I will NOT let that happen to me.
I will NOT let one person hurting me destroy my ability to move on and trust again.
If I did that, I would be giving my ex continued power over me and my life and that I will NOT do.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 33
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/22/2017 5:31:57 AM

You got custody though, so karma and justice won in the end.



...story about your ex, which is still tempting me to loose my dinner, what a terrible thing for her to do.


Oh, that's not the worst of it. Sh!t got so ridiculous that I had to cut ties with her and my daughter for four years, out of fear of potentially ending up in jail (that's the part that feels like somebody reaches into my chest and squeezes my heart until it is nothing but a bloodless prune every time I think about it - I lost four years of my daughter's life! - and that is not the worst part of that either). If I told you some of the stories about what my daughter went through during that time, that sh!t would curl your toes - stuff I didn't even know had the potential to be happening. When I finally found out I rescued my daughter and her mother went to jail. That four years for me was ruff, I have always been a person of meager financial means, and my life was basically completely destroyed by $300 a month child support payments. I lost two other separate relationships during that time largely due to financial problems, and basically was just left with nothing.

So yah, that right thar. *Shakes his head* I'm actually considering taking a nice relaxing vacation in hell coming up latter this year.
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 34
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/22/2017 2:52:22 PM
CressB- You said your daughter is 8 now, right?
If so that means when all this happened when she was a baby/toddler (the ages of 1-4, if I'm doing the math right)?
The good news is, at that age, she won't remember much of it, if anything.
The relationships you "lost" due to financial problems weren't much of a loss.
But that's the opinion of someone who isn't as much into material possessions as other people.
Say for example you have a man who could wine and dine me, spend on me till my eye's cross, but there's no heart in it and I don't see it going anywhere because of that.
Then, say there's a man that has a job, but he can only go to the store with me and we have a slim budget, so we buy a few odds and ends and have a picnic at the park. His heart IS in it and I DO see it going somewhere.
Guess who I will pick, EVERY time?
A vacation in hell would be NO fun at all.
A vacation can be something as simple as a walk on a pretty day.
Heck, I'm good with going to the beach for a day, or just the pool and a good book. :)
Life can suck, people can suck, but it really isn't ALL bad.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 35
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/22/2017 3:33:22 PM
Yah, I got her august of 2014. She was about one and a half last time I had seen her. I love her more than anything in the world, but with all the things she's been through it is rough some times. We're working hard on it though. Thanks for the sympathetic ear, you must be a bartender hunh? ;)
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 36
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/22/2017 5:34:04 PM
CressB- No, I'm a nurse. I've gotten good at listening to my patients over the years. That translates into me being able to listen well, in general.
You're welcome. :)
 JewelsnTools
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 37
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/22/2017 7:30:26 PM
In reading further, F.L., I've found more of what you're saying. I read that in Japan, a woman who marries basically gives up her entire identity, becoming "Mrs. Husband's Name." As if her entire value was derived from her marital status. That clearly explains why some women are choosing to remain unmarried--who wants to go through the hassle of college, only to have it totally devalued and set aside?
One of the reasons that this is so fascinating to me is the idea that there's a 'movement' composed of people who seem to need to 'band together' in order to go their own way. I'm one who just 'goes'-- no need to garner support from others in order to do so, you know? But, as an American, I've been raised to be individualistic, and from what I've read, the 'group' is more important in Japan. That doesn't, of course, explain the dynamic, here in America, of men participating in a 'movement'.
There doesn't seem to even be a 'movement' in Japan, though. The young men are simply "opting out", on their own.
Further research on the Herbivore men led me to the understanding that some of the young women ARE 'rejecting' them, turning to Western men as mates. Global economics and western media exposure were given as two of the main reasons for the increase of this outside-the-group interest. Also, the parental influence lessened (or was, at least, less against it) when the young women were able to 'snag' a wealthy 'gaijin', or foreigner. Maybe the young men ARE responding to the reduced interest shown by their in-group women more than the reports are saying?
I fully agree and understand what you meant about not having a long-term, before-and-after understanding of Japanese culture. There's so many different factors, it seems, influencing this new wave in their culture that I don't really have any right discussing it--because I don't have that understanding, either. It's just that the whole idea of men going their own way brings me a certain sadness, and the young Japanese men's story brought this sadness to my conscious attention.
As one who never developed a hatred toward ALL MEN, I am constantly blown away by the anger, rage, and ugliness I read from men online toward women. NO "frame of reference"! Even when a date/relationship ended up not working out, I could never see any reason to blame/hate ALL men, afterward. Like you, I'm far more successful at dating with in-person, real-life meetings (I'm such a Hot Momma!:) ). But even when things 'go south', I see it as two people not being a match--- not that all men are lousy, rotten, ne'er-do-wells! But that's just me, and I don't expect everyone to think that same way, you know?
There DOES seem to be an undercurrent of hurt and rage in the mgtow movement, but that's just an observation. Like all women are wrong because ONE hurt them, respectively. Um, no. I won't accept being crucified for someone else's sins.. Guess that could be said about how some folks see men, too.
With the world becoming more and more interactive, I'm thinking that perhaps this Herbivore Men thing is just Japan's way of more fully entering today's world. Maybe it's a good thing that they're no longer willing to just 'do their part' in keeping up the status quo. The mgtow movement would be awesome if it weren't based so much on what SOUNDS LIKE blame and hate toward women. Go ahead, go your own way, Bro! I wish you much happiness and fulfillment----just know that you going your own way might leave others to do the same!
Jewels
P.S., And no, the Samsonite joke was just that--a JOKE--but it's hard to tell how a person will take humor online. I won't make the mistake again, I assure you! lol
 forumslady
Joined: 12/7/2016
Msg: 38
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/22/2017 8:41:48 PM
JewelsnTools- CressB already told me it wasn't the Samsonite/baggage comment he was talking about, sorry about that.
We all say things on the forums we wish we could take back, then there are the things we stand by.
PLEASE say what you have to say, at least you are thoughtful and respectful.
CressB's story gave me pause, how can I tell him not to be mad, or hurt?
He could have lost his daughter and wound up in prison.
I see similar story's told by women in regard's to what men do to them during break up's/divorce.
All I can do is speak for me.
It seems we think alike in that we experience hurt and process it as a lesson to learn from, rather than an anchor to hold us down.
Heck, maybe the whole notion of marriage is an outdated concept, at this point.
But that's really a separate thread.
Keep thinking Jewel's, I do too.
There are ways to grow other than hurt and one of those is seeking to learn and grow on our own.
There's nothing wrong with that, as a matter of fact, maybe the world would be different if people learned, in general, to do exactly that.
Cheers. :)
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 39
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/23/2017 3:24:39 PM
https://youtu.be/qkW2GmFOSOE?list=FLOiyzn0Yi1UuMsXELa7tDSg

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/23/2017 4:54:58 PM

There are always two sides to a story and the truth usually falls somewhere in the middle.

That's a bad way of thinking. One of many. Yes it's true that often not enough of the truth can be found on any single side. But this certainly isn't a significant majority of the time. It's also quite frequently the case that one story is quite true, and the other quite full of shit.

There is plenty of wrong to go around with both genders

This begs for a conversation to lead to where it should - being careful when talking about one whole group as a single entity and looking for some useful truth in such a conversational approach.

I still feel that...when wrestling with any and all social dialogues, be it about Black Lives Matter, Feminism and related, Trump and anti Trump, how some men and women treat the opposite gender, child molestation within a religion and that religion, etc etc etc...a very good perspective is provided by a trio of movies -

Dances With Wolves
Avatar
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes

These demonstrate that the moment you tribalistically separate the issue into groups according to an assumption that the sides of the issue at hand can be defined and identified according to some trait which really is quite inapplicable and irrelevant...you shoot yourself in the foot. You play into the hand of the bad guys - whoever and whatever you're trying to fight against or for. You let the true bad elements hide within each group, become unable to understand and identify what you're really fighting against or for, and allow the bad elements within each side to manipulate everyone else and create perpetual and unresolvable conflict. This is when specific social dynamics emerge and begin to take control...specific social dynamics which can define what religion really is, no matter what it's appearance or label. This is also why many of us are very hesitant to formally identify with any movement...despite that movement being generally recognized as allegedly being for certain tenets or causes that we would embrace or fight for.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 41
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/23/2017 6:37:23 PM

You play into the hand of the bad guys - whoever and whatever you're trying to fight against or for. You let the true bad elements hide within each group, become unable to understand and identify what you're really fighting against or for, and allow the bad elements within each side to manipulate everyone else and create perpetual and unresolvable conflict.

And it's not just that some bad elements take over and manipulate to create perpetual conflict... it's that people enjoy being in perpetual conflict and actively seek to bring it about. The conspiracy against their better nature is more internal than external.
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/23/2017 7:03:13 PM
^ Except that I entertain the possibility that we can say that the people of which you speak are of the 'bad' ones of which I speak; That not everyone is like this, and there's a contest between those who are and those who aren't, and that to suggest that the above can describe everyone and be a true and blameable dynamic...may itself be an example of a tactic employed by such people to help achieve this very goal.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 43
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Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/24/2017 5:41:32 AM
^ I think it is a lot more common than you think. People love conflict. Look at the internet. Politics. Soap operas. You can't sell a story without it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_(narrative)

There seems to be an innate need within us for as much drama and adrenaline as we can get. Whoever happens to pop up to take advantage of such needs is not very important compared to the root cause in our primate biology. The ape within is what I would address. Treat the cause and the symptoms will resolve themselves.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 44
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/24/2017 10:21:58 AM
I could observe the people, as I do the environment, such as the leaf falling off the tree, or the cloud manifesting in the sky, as some sort of orchestration of a chemical process, and so on;

people don't interest me as individual objects to be studied, such as psychology. People are too complex to analyze individually, but they can be applied as a substitution to understand a model of nature
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 2/24/2017 3:48:01 PM

I think it is a lot more common than you think. People love conflict. Look at the internet. Politics. Soap operas. You can't sell a story without it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_(narrative)

There seems to be an innate need within us for as much drama and adrenaline as we can get. Whoever happens to pop up to take advantage of such needs is not very important compared to the root cause in our primate biology. The ape within is what I would address. Treat the cause and the symptoms will resolve themselves.

Well ok, sure. You win. I don't feel like arguing 'bout it : )
 Laidbackguy1964
Joined: 4/20/2017
Msg: 46
Herbivore Men...Japanese MGTOW?
Posted: 6/29/2017 5:52:54 AM
MGTOW....Ah yes...Men Who Go Their Own Way...A site dedicated to men...I'm not taking the red pill, but I do enjoy some of the videos...USA and Australia have MGTOW podcasters and they even have a radio station...It's a confidence builder for men, who feel society has let them down and want to feel good about themselves again...If you are a single guy, then it might be worth taking a look....It's your choice? They oppose radical feminist hate of men & boys and fake rape culture...I oppose those evil man hating vipers too

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs-brcHDxKqrOGU9cEWuCMQ/videos
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