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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles      Home login  
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 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 75
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Tesla releases details of its solar roof tilesPage 4 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
gtomustang:

so, Purplerider and 427Cammer, you've heard Trump say now that the Mexico border wall is in fact going to be made of solar cells...that a solar cell wall will offset the cost of building the wall. Now that you've heard this...what's your opinion of solar cells? Is Trump and the liberals right? Is Trump wrong and you're right? Also, what is all this free power going to do the the coal industry?

Seriously, I want to hear your opinions on this. Is Trump giving the tax payer a boondoggle?

???.... why would you think I should have an opinion on this?... in my very first post in this thread I mentioned that I am in support of finding alternative energies but that I'm also wary about spending large amounts of my money gambling on the current technology.... if I lived along the US - Mexico border solar panels would be less of a gamble than up here in northern Alberta.

What Trump does or doesn't do is of very little concern to me.... we've got our own clown up here that I'm a lot more concerned with.

What are your thoughts? Would you support Trump using solar panels on the wall?

...and also... would you support Trump using protectionist policies favouring solar companies in the US?

...and you never answered when I asked for your thoughts on the oft-told lie about Reagan immediately removing solar panels from the White House roof... or the dishonesty of the article quoted in the opening post of this thread.... care to tell me your thoughts?

...and also, the answer you gave when I asked why YOU don't use an electric car wasn't very satisfactory.... I mean you're 47 yrs old and apparently you're retired?.... you can afford to risk money investing in alternative energy solutions a lot more than I can... plus... you get the added bonus of being able to tell yourself that you're saving the planet... I'm not sure that I'd believe myself if I said those kinds of things.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 76
Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/19/2017 4:35:09 AM
Yes, I too support alternate energy, and if no one gambles on an invention, we don't get things like light bulbs and electricity in houses. Sometimes, its the wealthy, and sometimes, its the government. But since the wall's going nowhere, its now a moot point. Chump has worse problems to focus on now. Do I think America should have protectionist policies to help the solar industry? Around here at least, it doesn't seem necessary, the tax credits probably accomplish a similar thing, and that ends up being more Free Market, which conservatives love.

Interestingly enough, the Reagan solar panels got recycled (I figure Scientific American's not a bad source, and its an amusing story for those who read links):

"By 1986, the Reagan administration had gutted the research and development budgets for renewable energy at the then-fledgling U.S. Department of Energy (DoE) and eliminated tax breaks for the deployment of wind turbines and solar technologies—recommitting the nation to reliance on cheap but polluting fossil fuels, often from foreign suppliers. "The Department of Energy has a multibillion-dollar budget, in excess of $10 billion," Reagan said during an election debate with Carter, justifying his opposition to the latter's energy policies. "It hasn't produced a quart of oil or a lump of coal or anything else in the line of energy."
And in 1986 the Reagan administration quietly dismantled the White House solar panel installation while resurfacing the roof. "Hey! That system is working. Why don't you keep it?" recalls mechanical engineer Fred Morse, now of Abengoa Solar, who helped install the original solar panels as director of the solar energy program during the Carter years and then watched as they were dismantled during his tenure in the same job under Reagan. "Hey! This whole [renewable] R&D program is working, why don't you keep it?"

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carter-white-house-solar-panel-array/

I am 47, and being retired, i'm not driving to work everyday, so my mileage/emissions is less than most people, and I still have two modern vehicles from my parents to recycle, so yeah, a new car and its depreciation isn't the best investment of my money. Here in my corner of home state, electricity still comes from coal and an over-extended nuclear power plant. But in the future as things change....
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 77
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Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/19/2017 10:56:16 PM

Around here at least, it doesn't seem necessary, the tax credits probably accomplish a similar thing, and that ends up being more Free Market, which conservatives love.

....no. Tax credits to select companies or industries (and sometimes raising taxes on competitors) would seem to me to be the very definition of protectionism... and I doubt like hell conservatives are fans at all. Lower taxes to all corporations (at least low enough to be competitive with other nations) is what conservatives would like.

I can understand the appeal of protectionism in theory... it's natural that people would want to try and keep manufacturing jobs at home. If China were able to produce the exact same solar tiles as Tesla... for 1/10th of the price.... and citizens of every other country were buying the Chinese tiles.... how does the US deal with such a situation?

Keeping illegals out, and limiting immigration, seems like a lot better bet at protecting American jobs.

I am 47, and being retired, i'm not driving to work everyday, so my mileage/emissions is less than most people, and I still have two modern vehicles from my parents to recycle, so yeah, a new car and its depreciation isn't the best investment of my money. Here in my corner of home state, electricity still comes from coal and an over-extended nuclear power plant. But in the future as things change....

Okay. Just as long as you're not one of those wealthy hypocrites who support stupid policies such as Cap and Trade which disproportionately targets the working class while doing nothing about providing legitimate, affordable, alternative energies to people..... I hate those type of people.


...and still nothing in regards to my query about the ethics of using dishonesty to push an agenda that you agree with.

...I guess no answer is an answer within itself?
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 78
Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/20/2017 5:07:51 AM
1) the tax credit isn't for the producers of the panels, its for the customers who install them. Of course, doing so has a "trickle down", if you will, for the manufacturers of the products who may get more customers. A lot of Trumpets voted for their president who promised tariffs and other protectionism, thinking that was retribution and not having an idea of the ramifications. True conservatives don't like restrictions to free markets and free trade. They want people to vote with their dollars, and that is how the "best solution" will rise to the surface.

2) Cap and Trade is a Free Market "solution" to pollution, creating a market for pollution credits so that new factories/refiners/etc who pollute less, can sell their credits to older facitilites to get away with polluting more, the theory being there is a net amount of acceptable pollution. Not a fan of that or "cash for clunker" programs the Oil Companies invented either.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cap-and-trade.asp

3) "the ethics of using dishonesty to push an agenda"

>>Which one was this? You asked about the Ronald Reagan story, and I answered with a Reagan quote from a science magazine that tries to be apolitical. Is the dishonesty about the Tesla panels mentioned in the beginning of this post? this whole post has gone back and forth over the predictions, and of course we armchair scientists won't know for sure until the panels have been put into wide use :) I would consider a dishonest agenda, something like WMDs in Iraq, even the politicians pushing that had evidence to the contrary.

I live alone, my energy company sends me a few times a year a summary of my energy usage compared to my neighbors, who are married with children. My use is less than their's. My former boss, with two children, uses solar panels, and the company who installed them said they pay off only for those paying over a certain amount for their electricity (I can't remember the number right now). so, for some people, they won't be financially feasible.

Around here, we have companies with fleet vehicles that use alternate energy. Apparently it makes financial sense to them, some seem to be already on a second generation of the vehicles. Kinda like those old Frantz toilet paper oil filters, remember those? I still bump into fleet service mechanics who tell me toilet paper without color prints did a wonderful job keeping bearings clean. Of course, oil wasn't as refined/processed back then as it is now.

On the flip side, i'm in the snow belt and we get storms (not as many now w/ GW) that ice up the tree branches and knock out power. I'm thinking an individual source of electricity for houses in our "mountain belt" probably comes in handy then, b/c some storms' damage are bad enough we get power line guys from as far away as Canada to come help restore electricity.
 LOLTrump
Joined: 3/7/2017
Msg: 79
Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/20/2017 6:44:37 AM

....no. Tax credits to select companies or industries (and sometimes raising taxes on competitors) would seem to me to be the very definition of protectionism... and I doubt like hell conservatives are fans at all.


Which is exactly what the oil companies currently enjoy.




...Lower taxes to all corporations (at least low enough to be competitive with other nations) is what conservatives would like.


Maybe someone needs to let them know that US companies currently have some of the lowest effective tax rates in the world.

Also for the most part it does not make them more competitive, it just makes them more profitable.





I can understand the appeal of protectionism in theory... it's natural that people would want to try and keep manufacturing jobs at home. If China were able to produce the exact same solar tiles as Tesla... for 1/10th of the price.... and citizens of every other country were buying the Chinese tiles.... how does the US deal with such a situation?


By investing in the technology so the USA can produce the best product for the best price.





Keeping illegals out, and limiting immigration, seems like a lot better bet at protecting American jobs.


Nope, if you want to protect American jobs you need to invest in the education of future generations so you have the skilled workforce, otherwise you have no industry and as such your economy either goes away or you are stuck competing with other countries in the low skilled manufacturing jobs and you watch your GDP go through the toilet.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 80
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Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/21/2017 10:11:12 PM
gtomustang:

1) the tax credit isn't for the producers of the panels, its for the customers who install them. Of course, doing so has a "trickle down", if you will, for the manufacturers of the products who may get more customers.

???... if BigBadNIrish is correct about how the 30% tax credit works, the government will be subsidising Tesla to the tune of 30% of it's total income. If a homeowner buys a $100,000 dollar solar roof the government is paying $30,000 of the roof.... either in reduced taxes or tax refunds to equal 30% of the cost.

The government is playing favourites when they tax one industry at a set rate and another industry at a different rate.... but the 30% tax credit is going far beyond just playing favourites.

2) Cap and Trade is a Free Market "solution" to pollution, creating a market for pollution credits so that new factories/refiners/etc who pollute less, can sell their credits to older facitilites to get away with polluting more, the theory being there is a net amount of acceptable pollution. Not a fan of that or "cash for clunker" programs the Oil Companies invented either.

You know, I'm not a purist about any of this stuff.... if my government were to use protectionist policies that actually helped working people make more money, I'd have no problem.... whether anyone complained that we "weren't following free market practices" would not bother me in the least.

...but I recognise Free Market practises when I see 'em and cap and trade is certainly not one of them (and I misspoke before... I really was griping more about what my government was doing, which I guess could more accurately be called "tax and cap".

Is the dishonesty about the Tesla panels mentioned in the beginning of this post?

...well yeah.... the headline of the article in the OP was "Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles: cheaper than regular roof with ‘infinity warranty’ and 30 yrs of solar power"

First of all, myself, and I think most people, consider shingles to be regular roofing for their homes. At $21.85 per square foot for a finished roof, solar tiles are much more expensive than installed shingles.... maybe by as much as a factor of ten.

I guess some people, who live in fancier neighborhoods than I do, might say that a tile roof is "regular" and also costs less than a solar roof.... but they probably weren't reading the original article which said this:

The $21.85 per square foot price point was calculated for a roof where 35 percent of the tiles are solar (solar tiles cost more per square foot than non-solar tiles).

....so there's at least one lie in the headline.... why would I trust the article even a little bit?


...also I already read that article about Reagan.... it tells me nothing about YOUR thoughts about whether someone who says "You know, Jimmy Carter had solar panels installed at the White House and the first thing Ronald Reagan did after taking office was to remove them" is unfair in their depiction of Reagan.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 81
Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/22/2017 6:02:00 AM
1) The American government often plays favorites with businesses. Corporations donate to "campaign speech" (thanks to the Supreme Court ruling, "Citizens United"), like energy company Enron to George Bush, helping him get elected. Just recently, Chump gave Carrier $7 million dollars. Did the government also give its competitors subsidies? Taxes, subsidies, coupons...it all comes out the same April 15th. I can tell you my feelings on Republicans handing out favors to certain companies and disrupting the "Free Market" they pray too, but you can probably guess, right? :)

2) the problem with protectionist policies is that other countries return the favor, hurting our industry. For example, there are a few businesses on our border with Mexico that benefit from NAFTA, but now Chump wants to either pull it or change it. This is an interesting article from a right wing magazine about America trade, H. Ross Perot being the original populist Chump (Chump ran on his Reform Party during a failed attempt at office):

"For many years, nearly half of our trade deficit came from imports of a single product: oil, not Hondas or cheap flip-flops from China. Oil accounted for 40.5 percent of the trade deficit from 2000 to 2012. Thanks to fracking, the United States is today a very substantial petroleum producer, but federal law prohibits most crude-oil exports."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/422725/what-donald-trump-doesnt-know-about-us-trade-kevin-d-williamson

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/422725/what-donald-trump-doesnt-know-about-us-trade-kevin-d-williamson

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/articles/2016-04-19/trumps-trade-policy-is-a-big-loser-for-the-us-economy

a global economy turns trade into a zero-sum game. One market has to lose for another to win.

3) the original title of the post claimed the cost was cheaper WITH warrantee and 30 yrs of power. It didn't claim the initial install price was cheaper and end the claim there. We're comparing panels that do two jobs (cover roof and make electricity) with shingles that do only one job. That tends to raise an initial price :) And in this thread, the math has been gone back and forth, so I won't rehash it and extend this post, people interested can do the homework themselves. Not everyone stays in a house for that length of time, it may have the same effect on selling the house as a backyard pool, et cetera.

Someone pointed out you work in the oil field and may have a bias as a result. We all "trust a little bit" in this post. If you don't trust the new technology, then that's fine...I didn't feel you were going to invest in it anyway. :)

4) I had to look again for your Reagan quote, b/c all I had seen was mine. Now I see what you mean. Yes, a Canadian made an erroneous claim. It took 6 years, ie, in Reagan's second term. As you can tell from reading my posts, I tend to point out when talking heads get things wrong, and I missed your Canadian friend getting only 2 out of 3 correct (timing wrong, but act and intention correct). But it is nice you are concerned with my thoughts, you Canadians are so polite :)
 teekata
Joined: 7/19/2017
Msg: 82
Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/23/2017 8:38:49 AM
All I can say for sure is this... Tesla is the poster-child of a grossly overvalued, speculative market. Its SP was as high as 385 not long ago. It is losing hundreds of millions per quarter. It just issued a huge number of Junk Bonds. My prediction.... this company will eventually go bankrupt. From the ashes may arise a viable company.... . . although so far this highly shorted company has proven many shorts wrong. . . that's going to change. I am guessing if Trump holds firm on the wall, and the Dems never cave, and government shuts down.... the markets will be taking a huge dive...Tesla among them. I am thinking of taking a huge short position.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 83
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Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles
Posted: 8/26/2017 2:27:05 PM
gtomustang:

2) the problem with protectionist policies is that other countries return the favor, hurting our industry.

For the most part I agree

3) the original title of the post claimed the cost was cheaper WITH warrantee and 30 yrs of power. It didn't claim the initial install price was cheaper and end the claim there.

Did you go back and read the article?

"CEO Elon Musk first hinted that it would be cheaper than a regular roof after accounting for energy savings, and later said that Tesla’s solar roof could cost less than a regular roof – even before energy production.

Tesla pretty much delivered on both depending on how you look at it."


It doesn't depend on how I look at it at all, Tesla's roof is not cheaper than a regular roof before energy production.... so the article is lying.

The article also attributes claims to have been made by Elon Musk that would make him a liar too... but since I know that the article is a lying piece of shit... I can't trust these claims.

Someone pointed out you work in the oil field and may have a bias as a result. We all "trust a little bit" in this post. If you don't trust the new technology, then that's fine...I didn't feel you were going to invest in it anyway. :)

I pointed out that I work in the oilfield.... I've never hid it. While talking with people I work with and work for it is common to encounter people who love the idea of being able to live off the grid. For a lot of people it just amounts to talk (including myself), some people do make investments in wind or solar power. I've always meant to learn more about geothermal.... I've been told that our climate is too cold for it to work up here.

But it is nice you are concerned with my thoughts, you Canadians are so polite :)

I was impressed a couple of years ago when you laid a lot of the blame for GM's failure at the feet of the unions and the overgenerous pension plans of the autoworkers.... you might have been the only lefty here who had the honesty to say that.

...but, you've fallen completely in my estimation. No matter what the conversation is you never miss a chance to slime Trump, or Reagan, or the Bushes or all of the GOP... you've become a partisan hack.

And why would you be spinning like a mad man trying to defend an article which is obviously a lying piece of shit?... what does that make you?

 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 84
oh, golly, i've lost another fair weather friend :)
Posted: 8/27/2017 5:56:44 AM
"Tesla's roof is not cheaper than a regular roof BEFORE ENERGY PRODUCTION"

>>and it shouldn't be--its doing two tasks. If you do two jobs, do you only want to be paid for doing one job? :) Its only fair to be paid for doing more work than the rival. I wouldn't label that a spin. Now if someone wants to quote that the installation cost is the same, then yes, that's incorrect (it contradicts their point), but you asked about the title, and the title says, after energy production is factored in.

"...well yeah.... the headline of the article in the OP was "Tesla releases details of its solar roof tiles: cheaper than regular roof with ‘infinity warranty’ and 30 yrs of solar power"

First of all, myself, and I think most people, consider shingles to be regular roofing for their homes. At $21.85 per square foot for a finished roof, solar tiles are much more expensive than installed shingles.... maybe by as much as a factor of ten."

i'm answering what you just asked. If your region can't use solar cells b/c someone said so, did they mean back before global warming, or now when we have warmer winters? Down here, we've got more solar cells than we did 20 years ago, the winters are dramatically different. I can understand old timers saying the old technology doesn't work, but apparently customers are claiming different results now.

You claim not to care if Hugo Chump puts solar cells on his wall on Mexico (for some reason), but you're worried about what individuals want to put on their houses. Maybe our winters are somehow different than your's, and so what you've been told by someone up there isn't an issue down here. Perhaps its perfectly OK to use them down here and buy less Canadian oil b/c even our winters are no longer the same. I'm sure Asia can pick up the slack for your oil.

As for pointing out when the GOP makes massive mistakes, that's just pointing out there's an 800lb gorilla in the room. To say they didn't screw up is to ignore the obvious. and the Trumpets love to say their "truth", so they must love to hear the real truth. I don't have to worry about an opportunity to "Slime Trump" (I thought you said you didn't care about him?), every day Hugo Chump gives me a new one.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 85
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oh, golly, i've lost another fair weather friend :)
Posted: 8/31/2017 9:06:06 PM
gtomustang:

>>and it shouldn't be--its doing two tasks. If you do two jobs, do you only want to be paid for doing one job? :) Its only fair to be paid for doing more work than the rival. I wouldn't label that a spin. Now if someone wants to quote that the installation cost is the same, then yes, that's incorrect (it contradicts their point), but you asked about the title, and the title says, after energy production is factored in.

I never made the claim that Tesla's roof should be cheaper... I would expect that a solar tile roof should be significantly more expensive than a "regular roof".

^^^^....but you already knew that.

....I do disagree with a "news" organisation that chooses to lie to people because they want to push an agenda.... but that's hardly important either... every "news" organisation (that I know about) has an agenda that they want to push. Some of them (like the one at the top of this thread) blatantly lie in order to further their message.... most others are more insidious... they only ask certain questions... they push one side of a story a lot more than the other... etc.

Of more interest to me than the dishonesty of countless "news" organisations, is someone with whom I am communicating with directly who is too cowardly to label a news article as a lie when it is blatantly obvious that the article is lying.

... I mean, we both know the article is a lying piece of shit. Do you imagine that by doing your little dance of pretending the article is truthful you are going to convince one of the seven (or so) readers of this thread into going and buying a Tesla roof? Do you lose attaboy points with the hardcore leftists if you don't toe the company line?
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 86
oh, golly, i've lost another fair weather friend :)
Posted: 9/1/2017 5:50:43 AM
Gosh, you don't like fake agendas and then you wonder why I question the fake praise of Chump and Bush and Reagan :)

427, if you read the article again, you'll notice the claim is in blue text. That means, its a link to another article going into more detail about his claim that you are questioning. I assumed you looked at it, but in case you did not:

https://electrek.co/2016/11/17/tesla-solar-roof-cost-less-than-regular-roof-even-before-energy-production-elon-musk/

Here's his explanation:

"That’s including the labor costs and without subsidies for solar, Musk added.
The CEO claimed that it is achievable because the current roofing supply chain is “incredibly inefficient” – emphasizing that no one looked at the roofing supply chain for a while. He also echoed some comments made recently by Tesla CTO JB Straubel about the cost of products being linked to their weight when produced in volume.
He said that the glass developed by Tesla for the solar roof tiles weigh “a third, a quarter and sometimes even a fifth” of other current concrete and ceramic roof solutions. Musk calculated that because of the weight and fragility of the current products, logistic costs and breakage are important parts of the total cost.
Musk added that there are “huge gains” to be made by “cleaning up” that supply chain. While it remains to be proven, it has the potential to significantly accelerate the deployment of solar capacity by opening the market to homes that need to have a new roof, which is 5 million homes every year in the US alone.
The end price to the customer will obviously vary depending on the price of the house and the difficulty of the installation."

>>>I'm no expert on the scales of standard roofing supply chains or comparing pricing by weight, so yes, i'm not going to make assumptions based on my politics. Maybe it could, as he claims, maybe it won't, as you claim. We'll all see, inventors have made claims before, like politicians (but who questions who's going to pay for the wall, right?). I say, let's find out. There is a link after the quote above to the different types of tile offered, for those curious or who can identify prices from the materials they see, perhaps there will be a price range of the different tile styles. And as said in the article, the tiles don't need to cover the entire roof, only a percentage, and the rest of the roof I think they said is regular tiles that match the color and style:

https://electrek.co/2016/10/28/tesla-solar-roof-options-gallery/

meanwhile, the application of solar panels is apparently underestimated:

"Costs have dropped and infrastructures expanded much faster than even the most optimistic models had assumed. A new study by the Mercator Research Institute on Global Commons and Climate Change (MCC) shows that in 2050, the percentage of photovoltaics in the global power supply could be three times higher than previously projected. According to the study, published in the journal Nature Energy, the share of solar energy will likely range between 30 and 50 percent, instead of 5 to 17 percent, as suggested before—even if the global demand for electricity continues to rise."

https://www.mcc-berlin.net/en/media/press-information/press-release-detail/article/importance-of-solar-energy-underestimated-by-a-factor-of-three.html

"The IEA, a key reference for all modellers, predicted growth rates of 16-32% per year between 1998 and 2010. In fact, real growth ranged from 20-72%, with the annual average at 38%. This difference caused huge under-predictions of how much solar would be installed.
While an average growth rate of 19% leads to 470% growth over 10 years, a growth rate of 38% can produce a 2,500% increase in capacity in a decade. Even the most optimistic scenarios, published by Greenpeace from 2007–2010, underestimated solar growth. Initially high growth rates were expected to fall to 24-32% per year, a rate that has been surpassed by real-world development."

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-29/why-solar-keeps-being-underestimated/

but hey, we'll see, right? unless we don't try.
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