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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution      Home login  
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 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 51
A fatal flaw in the Theory of EvolutionPage 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

Nope, evolution is the process of evolving not the beginning.


Bingo....
The process of evolving...you have to have something to actually evolve. For examples... I don't think Rocks are evolving these days.
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 52
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/12/2017 3:28:12 PM

The process of evolving...you have to have something to actually evolve.


Correct, which is why evolution began when life was sparked, because the conditions where prime for it.





For examples... I don't think Rocks are evolving these days.


Some problems with that statement:

1. You stated examples and one gave one.

2. Are rocks living things and as such subject to the laws of evolution? If the answer is no then why did you use it as an example?


Also should be noted that rocks are just a temporary state of matter, as no rock starts off as a rock and no rock stays a rock forever, so in a way they may not evolve but they all do change.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 53
view profile
History
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/12/2017 6:21:19 PM

The process of evolving...you have to have something to actually evolve. For examples... I don't think Rocks are evolving these days.

Rocks do. It's hella slow, although so is biological evolution for the most part.

And somewhere around ‘there’ we assume a transition from static to life.
The question of division from static to life is --- where, and when ?

That's not The question when it comes to Evolution, although it's a side question that obviously does come up. Evolution is about the Evolution of already-living things. Evolution is different than Initial Creation. Talking about the evolution of one's life and how it unravels -- their crazy stories and such -- isn't about how babies are made. :)

Look -- bottom line why (most) religious people won't accept the basics of biological evolution: It pokes a whole against their Religion. It doesn't defeat the concept of a God even though some would fear that -- but their Religion is their God in a sense. It's what helped shape them growing up or when taking a turn on the right track at some point in life. It has all these strong positive emotions about it -- and it shatters.

Just like when they first discovered Dinosaur bones in the 1800s -- the religious folk thought the devil placed them there to skew us off from the Bible. For those demoninations which biological evolution is accepted just fine -- it has no bearing on it. But people don't like to be wrong. My grandfather can't be wrong... my community can't be wrong, you SOB! It's pride and defense of their "way of life" that is the real motive behind it. Same reason the earth isn't the center of the solar system or universe and people couldn't or wanted to accept it -- biological evolution takes away from the specialness, too.

The bible isn't an astronomy book nor a biological book, nor does it try to be. But people not knowing from Adam (no pun intended) how or in what way things from a human POV was constructed -- go to the Bible in it's basic not-trying-to-give-you-the-low-down opener, and firmly establish a view that it was all one big "bippity-boppidy-boo" thing. But in the end, you're talking about a universal God creator of the universe. As we learn about the universe and how things work in our modern age -- it's not by spirit fingers. Storms don't come by and strike lightning on bad people, droughts don't occur because the people in the area were bad, etc.

From a God-like POV -- you create the universe with humanly uncountable stars & planets etc coming to formation, you set the laws of nature to not only have that happen, but for if/when life creates, in the right environment, to grow and to potentially develop into conscious beings -- some advanced like Us. What God did -- whether it be a 2-second "poof" for all types of life to appear, or set things in motion over the Billions of years to develop as the matter in the universe evolves/changes, etc -- shouldn't/wouldn't have any bearing negative or positive effect to God. In fact, By Default, when we don't know how x/y/z developed or got there -- it probably ISN'T directly from some clap of hands in the sky... but more a production of the way the universe is constructed. So the REAL thing about God is -- if/who/what is behind the curtain of the universe itself to start all this -- even Before life... not "My family's generations and many others, and my community which I take pride in says God Did THIS, therefore you're Wrong!" That's not intellectually honest... and one thing for sure is that if there IS a God, one way or another, he made us into intellectually advanced beings -- and not utilizing in an Honest way would be a slap to him/it. But in the end, people's Religion is their God, which is why people couldn't believe the earth wasn't the center of the universe or even solar system, and why some can't accept biological evolution as our pathway to being.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 54
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/14/2017 11:26:16 AM

Look -- bottom line why (most) religious people won't accept the basics of biological evolution: It pokes a whole against their Religion.


I don't think that is the bottom line. You make the same mistake that Herod has made over and over and over....conflating belief in a greater entity with acceptance of Religious Doctrine. Personally, I think all organized religions are total BS. I don't believe in Jesus of course, nor do I agree with the violent God portrayed in the Old Testament.

But I can believe, without attributing any particular characteristics to God, that there is a superior entity out there responsible for the Universe, maybe responsible for the design of mankind....

I will not claim to know anything about this entity of course.... I just believe there is far more here than meets the eye. I do not believe the Universe exploded in to being out of some sort of collision of other Universes or Membranes, and if it did.. where did those Universes Come from. I of course cannot answer where God would have come from (God being a name given to this unknown entity), whether he too was created or just always existed like some suggested the Universe has existed. These are just issues beyond our knowledge and probably beyond our intellect to understand. I simply accept that, just like my Goldfish believes I am its God without knowing anything about me.
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 55
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/14/2017 12:32:01 PM

But I can believe, without attributing any particular characteristics to God, that there is a superior entity out there responsible for the Universe, maybe responsible for the design of mankind....


You can also believe that the moon is made of cheese, but like your statement above, neither is true and all evidence points to the contrary.





I will not claim to know anything about this entity of course.... I just believe there is far more here than meets the eye. I do not believe the Universe exploded in to being out of some sort of collision of other Universes or Membranes, and if it did.. where did those Universes Come from. I of course cannot answer where God would have come from (God being a name given to this unknown entity), whether he too was created or just always existed like some suggested the Universe has existed. These are just issues beyond our knowledge and probably beyond our intellect to understand. I simply accept that, just like my Goldfish believes I am its God without knowing anything about me.


So basically you are saying that you do not understand how planes fly and as such they clearly can not fly and it must be some invisible man making them fly.

FYI: Ignorance is not an answer, so in the future if you do not understand something you should avoiding think that means something else. Otherwise people may assume you are a bit simple.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 56
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/14/2017 1:37:37 PM
^^^ I get you are not the deepest thinker around and my post went right over our head, but really what I said is not complicated. Why not try reading it slowly...several times... and maybe you will get it...or maybe not. Some people just believe they have answers that are completely unknowable... I guess that helps some people sleep better at night.
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 57
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/14/2017 2:47:13 PM

I get you are not the deepest thinker around and my post went right over our head, but really what I said is not complicated.


Look I get that it must hurt when you post something and someone pciks it apart in 10 seconds but that is not need to get all mad and start insulting people.

Just think, what would an invisible man in the sky think of the way you are acting? (when he is not concerned with sports teams playing each other that is)





Why not try reading it slowly...several times... and maybe you will get it...or maybe not. Some people just believe they have answers that are completely unknowable... I guess that helps some people sleep better at night.


When you understand that it is you that is speculating, and that I am just quoting proven science then you will be well on your way to understanding the irony of claiming an invisible man in the sky did it while warning people about believing they have all the answers.

Either way you are always good for a laugh, so please never stop being you.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 58
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/14/2017 3:04:31 PM
Proven science for the creation of the Universe? Really? I must have missed that one. My bad.
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 59
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/14/2017 3:30:47 PM

Proven science for the creation of the Universe? Really? I must have missed that one. My bad.


Clearly you did, as you seem to think some invisible man did it, while I have made no claims as to the creation of the Universe, and have only repeated facts from science with regards to evolution and how life started as a single cell and has evolved into what we see today.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 60
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/15/2017 5:49:05 AM
^^^^^Prove it....science hasn't,
 ItsImpeachmentTime
Joined: 11/17/2017
Msg: 61
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/20/2017 2:38:01 PM

^^^^^Prove it....science hasn't,


If you think that science has not proven evolution then you are right up there with people who think the Earth is flat.
 52VincentBlackLightning
Joined: 10/3/2017
Msg: 62
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/21/2017 3:46:00 AM
The only 'religion' humankind needs is the Ethic of Reciprocity or "Golden Rule".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

Along with an understanding of and adherence to what Emerson said:
"Never let me make the vulgar mistake of believing I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted."

None of us knows whether our beliefs are correct. We may 'believe' we know but truly knowing isn't possible. Therefore, let's just be nice to each other, hmm?
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 63
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/21/2017 9:03:53 AM
No Frank.... evolution is a fact. What is not a proven fact is that man evolved from a one celled animal. Good try though.
 ItsImpeachmentTime
Joined: 11/17/2017
Msg: 64
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/21/2017 9:14:59 AM

No Frank.... evolution is a fact. What is not a proven fact is that man evolved from a one celled animal. Good try though.


Sorry you are wrong once again, but I will give you a chance to save face.

All you have to do it refute anything on this page and then back up your claim as to why you think it is false.

I will wait here while you attempt to deflect from the fact that you clearly have no idea what you are rambling on about.



How and why single cell organisms evolved into multicellular life
The story of the evolution of life
Date: April 25, 2016
Source: University of the Witwatersrand
Summary: The genome sequencing of the algae, Gonium pectorale, provides valuable clues into how and why single cells live together in groups -- one of the earliest steps on the path to a multicellular existence.

Throughout the history of life on Earth, multicellular life evolved from single cells numerous times, but explaining how this happened is one of the major evolutionary puzzles of our time. However, scientists have now completed a study of the complete DNA of one of the most important model organisms, Gonium pectorale, a simple green algae that comprises only 16 cells.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160425112455.htm
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 65
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 8:10:05 AM
^

The reason I'm an atheist is not because I dismiss the existence of God, it's because I see no evidence for the existence of a God


according to the falsification principle, the "theory of existence of God" is not subject to being falsified (by using evidence)...as was the flat-earth theory and newton's theory of gravity (supplanted by Einstein's theory).

evidence (or lack of it) is not something that can be used to prove or disprove the "god question"

https://explorable.com/falsifiability
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 66
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 10:34:16 AM
^^^^^^ what a bunch of malarkey. Until science can explain the existence of the Universe (it can't..it can merely speculate) or the existence of consciousness... it can't,it can only speculate......or the existence of a creature as complicated as man (evolution is of course the fall back theory... but evolution does not answer all of the questions).....then the existence or not of "god", who may well be the creator of the Universe...is as good as any other theory.

The problem with scientists...and i am betting you are one....is that you people have a very myopic view point of the world...you can never see the trees through the forest... you are unable to appreciate the wonders of the Universe and think that there must be a scientific explanation for all of them... demand there must be. That's because of your limited viewpoints of the world. And by the way, that was the genius of Einstein... his ability to think outside the box... too many scientists do not have that ability. They may be good in math.....but they are so blind to things that really count. So sad.

Its also why scientists do not typically make great artists... or husbands or boyfriends for that matter. Sensitivity is simply not one of their traits. Just sayin.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 67
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 11:27:27 AM
I'm not a creationist...I'm just anti BS....Science is simply your religion... you can't prove anything. Evolution is not a theory of creation, it is merely a theory for evolving....I support science... I do not support scientific arrogance though...an insistence that only science has the answers.... because it doesn't and has never been able to demonstrate that it comes close. The scientific method is all good and everything...yet...there are simply things the scientific method is NEVER going to explain.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 68
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 11:52:54 AM
By Amir D. Aczel April 27, 2014
A number of recent books and articles would have you believe that—somehow—science has now disproved the existence of God. We know so much about how the universe works, their authors claim, that God is simply unnecessary: we can explain all the workings of the universe without the need for a Creator.

And indeed, science has brought us an immense amount of understanding. The sum total of human knowledge doubles roughly every couple of years or less. In physics and cosmology, we can now claim to know what happened to our universe as early as a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang, something that may seem astounding. In chemistry, we understand the most complicated reactions among atoms and molecules, and in biology we know how the living cell works and have mapped out our entire genome. But does this vast knowledge base disprove the existence of some kind of pre-existent outside force that may have launched our universe on its way?

Science won major victories against entrenched religious dogma throughout the 19th century. In the 1800s, discoveries of Neanderthal remains in Belgium, Gibraltar and Germany showed that humans were not the only hominids to occupy earth, and fossils and remains of now extinct animals and plants further demonstrated that flora and fauna evolve, live for millennia and then sometimes die off, ceding their place on the planet to better-adapted species. These discoveries lent strong support to the then emerging theory of evolution, published by Charles Darwin in 1859. And in 1851, Leon Foucault, a self-trained French physicist, proved definitively that earth rotates—rather than staying in place as the sun revolved around it—using a special pendulum whose circular motion revealed the planet’s rotation. Geological discoveries made over the same century devastated the “young earth” hypothesis. We now know that earth is billions, not thousands, of years old, as some theologians had calculated based on counting generations back to the biblical Adam. All of these discoveries defeated literal interpretations of Scripture.

But has modern science, from the beginning of the 20th century, proved that there is no God, as some commentators now claim? Science is an amazing, wonderful undertaking: it teaches us about life, the world and the universe. But it has not revealed to us why the universe came into existence nor what preceded its birth in the Big Bang. Biological evolution has not brought us the slightest understanding of how the first living organisms emerged from inanimate matter on this planet and how the advanced eukaryotic cells—the highly structured building blocks of advanced life forms—ever emerged from simpler organisms. Neither does it explain one of the greatest mysteries of science: how did consciousness arise in living things? Where do symbolic thinking and self-awareness come from? What is it that allows humans to understand the mysteries of biology, physics, mathematics, engineering and medicine? And what enables us to create great works of art, music, architecture and literature? Science is nowhere near to explaining these deep mysteries.

But much more important than these conundrums is the persistent question of the fine-tuning of the parameters of the universe: Why is our universe so precisely tailor-made for the emergence of life? This question has never been answered satisfactorily, and I believe that it will never find a scientific solution. For the deeper we delve into the mysteries of physics and cosmology, the more the universe appears to be intricate and incredibly complex. To explain the quantum-mechanical behavior of even one tiny particle requires pages and pages of extremely advanced mathematics. Why are even the tiniest particles of matter so unbelievably complicated? It appears that there is a vast, hidden “wisdom,” or structure, or knotty blueprint for even the most simple-looking element of nature. And the situation becomes much more daunting as we expand our view to the entire cosmos.

We know that 13.7 billion years ago, a gargantuan burst of energy, whose nature and source are completely unknown to us and not in the least understood by science, initiated the creation of our universe. Then suddenly, as if by magic, the “God particle”—the Higgs boson discovered two years ago inside CERN’s powerful particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider—came into being and miraculously gave the universe its mass. Why did this happen? The mass constituted elementary particles—the quarks and the electron—whose weights and electrical charges had to fall within immeasurably tight bounds for what would happen next. For from within the primeval soup of elementary particles that constituted the young universe, again as if by a magic hand, all the quarks suddenly bunched in threes to form protons and neutrons, their electrical charges set precisely to the exact level needed to attract and capture the electrons, which then began to circle nuclei made of the protons and neutrons. All of the masses, charges and forces of interaction in the universe had to be in just the precisely needed amounts so that early light atoms could form. Larger ones would then be cooked in nuclear fires inside stars, giving us carbon, iron, nitrogen, oxygen and all the other elements that are so essential for life to emerge. And eventually, the highly complicated double-helix molecule, the life-propagating DNA, would be formed.

Why did everything we need in order to exist come into being? How was all of this possible without some latent outside power to orchestrate the precise dance of elementary particles required for the creation of all the essentials of life? The great British mathematician Roger Penrose has calculated—based on only one of the hundreds of parameters of the physical universe—that the probability of the emergence of a life-giving cosmos was 1 divided by 10, raised to the power 10, and again raised to the power of 123. This is a number as close to zero as anyone has ever imagined. (The probability is much, much smaller than that of winning the Mega Millions jackpot for more days than the universe has been in existence.)

The scientific atheists have scrambled to explain this troubling mystery by suggesting the existence of a multiverse—an infinite set of universes, each with its own parameters. In some universes, the conditions are wrong for life; however, by the sheer size of this putative multiverse, there must be a universe where everything is right. But if it takes an immense power of nature to create one universe, then how much more powerful would that force have to be in order to create infinitely many universes? So the purely hypothetical multiverse does not solve the problem of God. The incredible fine-tuning of the universe presents the most powerful argument for the existence of an immanent creative entity we may well call God. Lacking convincing scientific evidence to the contrary, such a power may be necessary to force all the parameters we need for our existence—cosmological, physical, chemical, biological and cognitive—to be what they are.

Science and religion are two sides of the same deep human impulse to understand the world, to know our place in it, and to marvel at the wonder of life and the infinite cosmos we are surrounded by. Let’s keep them that way, and not let one attempt to usurp the role of the other.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 69
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 12:02:39 PM

How many times, even in this thread has it been said that science isn't there to prove anything.


Yet you smugly proclaim there is no God


Science just gives reasonable explanation(s) to observable phenomenons


False, it gives reasonable explanation to Some observable phenomenons...not that everything is observable of course.


however, let's not say God did it


Just because you cannot see, hear, explain or define God does not mean he didn't do it...the only other explanation is that it just happened...that's not good enough.


Find something wrong with evolution and great let's go find what's wrong. The trouble is, in all the threads no one has ever pointed out a specific problem, only that they don't like it.


Now that is total BS. The something wrong with evolution is it does not provide all of the answers... it does not answer the question of creation, nor imho, does it account for all of the variability and complexity of life as we know it... and sure does not answer the question of consciousness.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 70
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 12:29:58 PM
I never suggested anything about praying or who the universe was created for or why. I simply suggest the evidence to me indicates a superior hand played a role in the universe's existence. I have no opinion about who, what, why or how many. And certainly have no opinion of where that superior hand came from. In the end, you can tell me light moves at 186000 miles per second through a vacuum, but not why. My point being science is very limited about what it can explain. It can detect gravitational waves but not tell us why there is gravity or why mass distorts time space to create gravity. All an enduring mystery, probably forever.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 71
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 12:42:31 PM
"Just because you cannot see, hear, explain or define pixies does not mean pixies didn't do it...the only other explanation is that it just happened...that's not good enough"

This is the typical sarcastic response when an atheist's back is against the wall...proclaiming why can't God be a pink dragon, a unicorn or a pixie. But all of those characterizations are an attempt to objectify God...He can't be objectified. It's impossible to do so. Even religion gets that point.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 72
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 1:01:53 PM
^^^ the way the Universe ends may be as you describe.... that still does not answer the question as to whether there is a why.... that is simply an unknown, like everything else. Perhaps we indeed are simply part of an infinite Universal scheme. Our Universe having a finite life like all other living organisms...if the Universe is alive, or even if its not. Even if the infinite Universal Multiverse scheme is true.... the why and the how will always be up for debate.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 73
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 1:19:56 PM
^^^ that is a false equivalence, or a non-sequitur. That people ascribed magic to things they did not understand in no way vitiates the existence of God for describing the existence of the Universe. Although I have never personally witnessed God or had an experience where I knew God was with me, there are people who have had that experience. There is a Bible where supposedly thousands witnessed miracles performed by God. I personally don't buy into personal religion, but that does not mean these people did not experience God. Eyewitness testimony is the primary forms of evidence in a Court of Law.

But even if we assume there is no evidence of a God, there is evidence of a Universe... and either you believe it essentially came from nothing, or was created by something. This is a circular argument. One hypothesis is as good as the other. The quaintness of the god of gaps argument may be explaining away why people believe in God, but that people do not have a reason for believing does not in anyway factually establish that God is not the reason we are all here.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 74
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/25/2017 5:55:24 PM
@ andya


things that cannot be falsified are considered pseudo-science and not valid for scientific inquest.


exactly,...... so then why the hell are you stating that you do not believe in God because you do not see "evidence" of his existence...what (physical) evidence would you expect to see...God knocking on your door floating on a cloud?

Lack of belief in God is also a dogma....just as it is to someone who is a believer in God


Russell's tea pot you are not making a valid point.


actually, Russell's pot can in theory be falsified....anything in the physical world is subject to falsification



What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence


and have you heard that "lack of evidence, is not per se...evidence for lacking"



Philosophical theories are not scientific theories.


no sh!t....but this philosophical theory serves as foundation upon which scientific principles stand...maybe you should actually read the article I put up in my previous post
 HippyDippyWeatherman
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 75
view profile
History
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2017 7:19:48 AM
Andyaa
Your posts are very informative and lucid. My pet peeve with theories is that they are perceived as absolute. The current acceptible theory takes facts and describes them in a way that answers more questions than the previuos theory. This leaves the door open for another theory to answer all the previous questions and the ones that were not answered. Creationist and Intelligent Design proponents do not accept that their theory has been replaced by a superior answer of the observable facts.
I found this video which could possibly lead to the discovery of how life could have started in the primordial soup of earth's early history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8VyUsVOic0
This is an idea and not proven conclusively but it does not rely on supernatural influence.
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution