Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 76
A fatal flaw in the Theory of EvolutionPage 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Burdens of proof are not possible in areas where evidence is questionable. You opine the universe exploded into existence with no proof of how that happened. None of us can meet a burden of proof. You assume there was no intent behind creation. Others assume there was. Either side may be correct.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 77
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2017 9:05:21 AM
#81 andy


a lack of belief clearly isn't.


what makes it a dogma is that you are using the same methodology (to expect evidence) for a different standard.
Simply put....Its like using a Philips head screw driver to remove a flat head screw...it can't be done, and then you go on to say something like "there is no evidence that this screw can be removed in this fashion".


If I believed God didn't exist regardless of evidence, then this would be dogma.


well, its like a flat-earthist...who doesn't believe the earth is round regardless of evidence, but that is not his dogma, it is just his stupidity....dogma can have a more amorphous definition given the context you put it in


If God really existed as he does in the old testament where he interacts with people and is the creator of everything as we see it, there should be evidence.


if it happened literally i guess there could be evidence...but I think your flaw is that you can't discern allegory from fables. I don't feel that the creatorship has any direct agency in this universe, eswpecially if there are parallell worlds where anything that is possible happens in some alternate world...in this case, there would be nothing for God to do.


Yes, it's called the argument from ignorance.


where is the evidence that indicates the transition point from lifelessness to life?....yet we are here!
where is the evidence that precipitated the so-called big bang.........yet we are here!

so (according to you), it is ignorant to say because we have no evidence of the above....it didn't occur, or it just doesn't factor in!

a while back you were expounding on the existence of parallell worlds (which I later looked into), and although an interesting hypothesis, none of the researchers claim that any of it can be proven (via evidence)...because these alternate worlds are not places that we can probe or travel to (nor can they come to our world)...so then according to you, theirs would be an argument from ignorance!!!!


yet you conflate the two.


nothing here is being conflated...the principle of falsification must be satisfied in any physical trial in order for a null hypothesis to be dispelled
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 78
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2017 11:22:49 AM
^^^^ I believe in evolution.... I do not accept unequivocally however that all of the variations of life on earth were simply evolution doing its thing on a primordial amoeba. I'm not sure that it was necessary for evolutionary purposes, to create a blonde eyed beauty to match perfectly with a brown eyed guy to go along with a sunlit rainbow or a beautiful moon filled or moonless night. And repetitively I state..why consciousness.... and what is the purpose of an einsteinian level of intelligence. Did the dinosaurs need that level to survive? They managed to live hundreds of millions of years without an Einstein among them. Just random evolvement of the human mind? I have questions about all that.

But when it comes to the creation of the singularity.... all of everything we are and see and know about and don't know about...packed into an infinitely dense material that exploded instantaneously into the Universe.... that I especially have problems with.

I did read Hawkings book the Grand Design by the way.... but there is an awful lot of assumptions and speculations in that book..... particles flitting into and out of existence...blah blah blah. Nice theory. Just intuitively makes no sense to me. We can all believe what we want however.
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 79
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2017 5:03:39 PM
"God does not exist"-an opinion...

Most philosophical ideas have added great value to human civilization-including religion-or spiritual philosophy-why do we need to argue this topic-ad-infinitum?-belief/faith is not provable-love is not provable- they are intangible. Nothing wrong with faith- nothing wrong with love--ca sera, sera...Yet that being said-as it is not provable-no need to try to convince others to believe your faith-hardened hearts are hardened for a reason. conviction comes not from man. Enlightenment cannot be taught.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 80
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2017 7:28:30 PM
andy


The trouble here is, you haven't understood what an argument from ignorance is. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false. At no stage did any of the commentators claim that the other world's or multiverse theories are true.


I'll start from the end because this ^ seems to be the linch-pin for your entire response here

First...where have I said that "a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false"? If you are just putting words in my mouth, then who is it that is being dishonest here?

Lack of evidence means just that...its lacking evidence....which means that you cannot rule anything in or out...thus, stating that a proposition is true without "evidence" means that you have "ruled in" something without merit, and that is not what I am inferring.

All I say, is that (when referring to the pre-big bang conditions), anything is possible...including that of a creatorship.
You might say......why invoke a creator when there is no need for it...which is certainly a possibility...but in truth, we don't know what possibilities...are possible, in that realm.......It can be like a crude Shroding's cat analogy, it could be both dead and alive until you look in, thus both states are equally possible at one point!

So you may "choose" not to believe in a supernatural force (which is okay), and someone else might "choose" to believe, and that is also okay...because both have equal merit.

secondly, when you say "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false.", lemme bring you back to the position where I started from, in which I said that the existence of God is something that is not subject to falsification, thus not subject to the scientific analysis that would produce the "proof" either for it, or against it. Therefore, I don't feel that this is an issue of enacting an argument from ignorance....but rather a fancier or more elegant way of saying "we can't know".



you consider scientific theories and philosophical theories to be one and the same


No I don't, but you have to have a sound philosophical axioms upon which to build a scientific theory


Again it depends on your definition of alive. Is a cell alive, if I take a red blood cell from my body and place it on a slide, is it alive? Is an enzyme alive? It behaves as if it is but clearly it isn't. If we heat it up too high we don't say we killed it but denatured it. Is a virus alive? It replicates, it doesn't reproduce. We know protein can spontaneously form. I mean all the steps are right there from, as you say lifelessnes to life, the fact we don't know exactly how means we don't know how not that it didn't happen.


compared to a rock...all of the specimens you outlined above are alive in some way.
Do we have evidence for what triggers the transition point between a functionless molecule...to that of an enzyme?


....... but the bible...


you keep talking as if the Bible is the "gold standard" for that which represents the supernatural/God. The OT Bible is a collection of anecdotals/rules written by Jews.. for Jews.....and your concrete way of thinking hampers your imagination to delve elsewhere. An example of this is when you say "God created the heavens and the earth, so if I look into the sky I should see all the heavenly bodies created at or about the same time".

Geezer, are you kidding me?...........do you really think that if God indeed created the heavens, that he couldn't have done it in stages, extending to this very day, or to allow for evolution of the Universe and all else in it?....Do you really expect these ancient writers to have a profund understanding of Cosmology (as we do today) and express it as such in the Bible?

Think of our exitence in this Universe, as though we were air molecules inside an expanding balloon...we are all part of a greater set, within this balloon. Because of this, we are not able to know what is beyond its confines. The only way we can know the truth, is if we somehow step outside this Universe, so that we can become TRUE observers..apart from it. That is the only way you will get your evidence;..... thus, for all we know, we can very well be SIMS inside somebody's computer being observed by being(s) who reside in some other realm......and we wouldn't have any way to prove or disprove it.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 81
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2017 7:37:43 PM
Inicia, is there really any more interesting of a topic. True nobody can prove anything one way or the other....and yet a beautiful morning with the shine illuminating off of the morning mist.....tells me it could not have happened randomly. That is the evidence that there is more here than just some random big bang creating our Universe and ultimately ourselves. It is as if the world was created for all of us.. all of nature is in harmony (or was before mankind anyway)....there simply has to be something behind it....and that's just our world.... when you start getting to the Universe itself.....
 whosmeow
Joined: 10/19/2017
Msg: 82
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2017 7:55:46 PM
I cant help but find humor in the Sim's reference. As a Christian I will laugh loudly with a smile on my face :)
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 83
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/27/2017 2:42:17 PM

All I say, is that (when referring to the pre-big bang conditions), anything is possible...including that of a creatorship.


As I see it, there are only to possible states as opposed to "anything" being possible. Either the Universe started as a Random event based on whatever the structure of the pre-bigbang status... whatever that is, OR the Universe was Created.

To further break that down..given the fine tuning of the Universe for Life, for its existence itself, the odds of its being a Random event are, according to one scientist I quoted in the above post, as close to zero as you can get. Now yes.... given an infinite amount of time, I assume that close to zero probability becomes an eventuality.... but, I just think the odds are far greater that there was a creation by an entity we know nothing about and do not understand.

I won't objectify that entity because it is an unknown, so we can call it God, the Creator... whatever we choose. Lets not mistake this for the God of the Bible, which imho, is a myth...

Now if Universes are being created continuously on an infinite basis.... I assume that its possible our Universe, being one of an infinite number of Universes... was bound to be.... but that is really what we are hanging our hat on if we choose to deny the existence of intent and a creator.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 84
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/27/2017 5:29:03 PM
Right...some hand has to come up the first time, but we are talking probabilities here. I am simply opining the chances of a creator are greater than the chances of the cards coming up like they did. But we are here...the question is why.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 85
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/27/2017 7:33:14 PM
I think I said that. If there is a multiversal scheme, an infinite number of universes..that argument may work. If ours is the only universe, it doesn't.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 86
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/27/2017 7:39:40 PM
anda


To then claim that a creator exists because you then cannot rule them in or out because they're unknown and unfalsifiable is by definition, an argument from ignorance.


I hope you see the nonsense in the above statement, where you say......"I claim a creator exists because I cannot rule him in or out"..........is that really a "claim" I made?


If I claimed my grandmother started the big bang, in your universe that carries as much weigh as God did it.


only if your GM lived outside the confines of the Universe


.... because we don't know what it is or what is flying it, nothing can be ruled in or out therefore I can make the claim that it's of extraterrestrial origin. You cannot disprove this because it's unfalsifiable therefore aliens exist. Again a classic example of an argument from ignorance.


If the UFOlogist is making a "claim" that UFO's exist..... because what he says cannot be falsified then that is not what I'm saying. I have said that the matter of whether or not a creator exists, is not something that can be subject to the scrutiny of empirical investgation, whose results might provide us with physical "evidence".....and thus, I make no "claim" one way or the other. This is why I invoked the example of the shrodinger cat (whose point you missed)..to illustrate that in a quantum state, the cat can be BOTH dead and alive....until we as observers look at it, in order for it to convert to either a dead state or a live one, and we could not derive any evidence of the cat being either dead or alive prior to that...I believe that the same could be said in a pre-big bang state; as it cannot be said if some (creative) entity had to "observe" ( I use the word figuratively because we don't have the capacity to observe that which doesn't exist), that which would become the so called big bang...............and it doesn't matter how many Universes get created, as the same process would apply...but in the quantum realm.


Here's a philosophical axiom however... Nature abhors the void.
Right, build a scientific theory on that!


"nature abhors the void" seems more like an anthropic statement...rather than an axiom from which Mathematics are founded upon
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 87
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 11/28/2017 10:30:35 AM

This universe came into existence because the criteria was correct, it will naturally live out its existence then end in some fashion, as will you, for no other reason than the conditions were right. Enjoy it while it lasts, you missed the first 13 billion, you're going to miss the next several trillion years


Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the source of our Consciousness. If the Universe is Conscious, or if there is some sort of universal consciousness at play....then we are all part of that picture.... and so long as that Universal consciousness exists, than so too will our consciousness.

I mean, do you think you are here and conscious just because of some brain cells that are somehow communicating with each other? Are electric circuits or computers self-aware and conscious? Will they ever be?
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 88
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 12/6/2017 10:49:47 AM

A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution

the fatal flaw is not to conclude that "everything" is a product of Evolution/Mutation ...according to the bible even God himself had a need to evolve arms and legs and pass his image to Man


Billions of pieces of information must be organized and properly aligned for even the simplest life form to exist.

this suggest that the very same information is already contained within a rock for it to exist as life or "inevitably" evolve into life ..for where did this "properly aligned and organized information" come from..if it doesn't already exist within everything

THE QUESTION
which came first ...God or knowledge


For example, life cannot evolve until it exists

is the Universe not a form of life?
 Cynderella
Joined: 3/8/2007
Msg: 89
view profile
History
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 12/28/2017 1:41:25 AM
I hope one day....in my life time, these
questions can be answered.
We have come along way from being
the center of the Universe.
 Inicia
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 90
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/1/2018 5:17:48 PM
The term Sophia- meaning wisdom was removed from the recorded text -and historical degradation of sophistry( a real accepted reasoning) was turned into a flaw,- an insult to degrade an argument one could not win-calling it circular reasoning.
Almost everything in nature is spherical or circular. go figure- and after five pages of debate-yes a long way we have come...
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 91
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/1/2018 7:26:38 PM
A very religious scientist:

http://www.ozy.com/rising-stars/the-man-who-may-one-up-darwin/39217?fb=ozy&type=cpc&aud=25
 YouRAWancar
Joined: 12/29/2017
Msg: 92
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/2/2018 12:22:42 PM

A very religious scientist:


Yep and one that aside from creating click bait is not a very good one.


Jeremy England: the next Charles Darwin?

I don’t get what’s revolutionary here. Overall, I think that England’s theory is based on life originating by the self-organization of molecules that will almost always occur under Earthlike conditions. The self-organization bit isn’t new, but the inevitability may be. And then I see some criticism of Darwinian evolution that makes no sense at all. So, I’ll reserve judgement about the Second Coming of Darwin until the experts have weighed in on England’s work.


https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2016/09/12/jeremy-england-the-next-charles-darwin/
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 93
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/2/2018 12:33:20 PM
^^^ Yes Frank... I am sure given his superlative educational background and his professorship at MIT, that you are his intellectual equivalent and can rationally judge his scientific competence.
 YouRAWancar
Joined: 12/29/2017
Msg: 94
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/2/2018 12:42:07 PM

^^^ Yes Frank... I am sure given his superlative educational background and his professorship at MIT, that you are his intellectual equivalent and can rationally judge his scientific competence.


Well Bob given the fact you seem to have trouble understanding some very basic concepts, I will assume you did not understand that I posted a link, and from there you will see it was written by someone who was able to look at the article you posted and point out that it is literally gobbledygook written for people like you who are just looking for anything that supports their claims but are not smart enough to question it.

So going forward please make sure you do not address the topic and just attack the poster.

This way people will know for sure that you are no better than someone like tRump and as such you will just keep tossing the insults and deflecting away from the topic.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 95
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/2/2018 12:49:48 PM
^^^ i see, you are relying on a third party to tell you about this scientist's credentials......and I'm sure this guy too is the equivalent of a genius and thus can judge the scientist's competence. Anything to attack religion.... no matter how beneficial to the people. Very sad.
 YouRAWancar
Joined: 12/29/2017
Msg: 96
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/2/2018 1:01:14 PM

^^^ i see, you are relying on a third party to tell you about this scientist's credentials...


I see you have failed to understand what irony is, or you are claiming that you know everything and never once had you had to consult anyone else.




and I'm sure this guy too is the equivalent of a genius and thus can judge the scientist's competence.


Then you agree that the link you posted too was fluff and derp combined and in no way has any real science or data in it.




Anything to attack religion.... no matter how beneficial to the people. Very sad.


Why do you get so defensive when someone points out the truth to you?

It is almost like you are some religious nutter who just plays the "War on christmas / religion" card when ever you are faced with the hard truth.

The best part is you come off so much like tRump with your replies it is not even funny.
 weaselata
Joined: 7/3/2017
Msg: 97
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/3/2018 2:37:39 PM

Why do you get so defensive when someone points out the truth to you?


Why do you presume you know or speak the truth? Heck...you don't even accept proven facts..like the benefits of religion to people... to the extent they live longer and are happier than the non-religious. Sad Frank.
 YouRAWancar
Joined: 12/29/2017
Msg: 98
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/3/2018 2:49:46 PM

Why do you presume you know or speak the truth?


Why don't you copy and paste where I have made that claim and then we can discuss it further.





Heck...you don't even accept proven facts..like the benefits of religion to people... to the extent they live longer and are happier than the non-religious. Sad Frank.


Are the old call it a proven fact yet fail to actually back that up derp.
 weaselata
Joined: 7/3/2017
Msg: 99
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/3/2018 2:54:56 PM
Sure seems to me you made that claim when you posted:


Why do you get so defensive when someone points out the truth to you?


AND



Are the old call it a proven fact yet fail to actually back that up derp.


You post this despite being provided irrefutable proof on Google Scholar by well crafted studies.....which means that you will never accept the actual facts unless they are facts you agree with. Very sad :-(
 YouRAWancar
Joined: 12/29/2017
Msg: 100
A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution
Posted: 1/3/2018 3:06:24 PM

You post this despite being provided irrefutable proof on Google Scholar by well crafted studies.....which means that you will never accept the actual facts unless they are facts you agree with. Very sad :-(


Cool story bro.

I would ask you to back that up but I see you seem to be having some issues keeping a profile.
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > A fatal flaw in the Theory of Evolution