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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 576
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthemPage 24 of 39    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39)

They were suspended from the U.S. team. '


Not quite because of the US response, but because of the response from the IOC President.



International Olympic Committee response[edit]
International Olympic Committee (IOC) president Avery Brundage deemed it to be a domestic political statement unfit for the apolitical, international forum the Olympic Games were intended to be. In response to their actions, he ordered Smith and Carlos suspended from the US team and banned from the Olympic Village. When the US Olympic Committee refused, Brundage threatened to ban the entire US track team. This threat led to the expulsion of the two athletes from the Games.[11]
A spokesman for the IOC said Smith and Carlos's actions were "a deliberate and violent breach of the fundamental principles of the Olympic spirit."[3] Brundage, who was president of the United States Olympic Committee in 1936, had made no objections against Nazi salutes during the Berlin Olympics. He argued that the Nazi salute, being a national salute at the time, was acceptable in a competition of nations, while the athletes' salute was not of a nation and therefore unacceptable.[12]
Brundage had been accused of being one of the United States' most prominent Nazi sympathisers even after the outbreak of the Second World War,[13][14] and his removal as president of the IOC had been one of the three stated objectives of the Olympic Project for Human Rights.[15]
In 2013, the official IOC website stated that "Over and above winning medals, the black American athletes made names for themselves by an act of racial protest."[16]
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 577
view profile
History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 12:10:00 PM
The NFL or individual team owners can easily and within their rights tell them they can't kneel or sit, because they are at work and they decide what a person can do while on the job. I think they didn't know what to do and where concerns about looking bad by telling them they couldn't kneel or sit, because of what the reason was for doing that and then to be called racist, since everyone loves to throw around that word randomly and without reason these days. It's up to the NFL and/or team owners to say what it will be, and not the people attending a game or watching, but of course they can respond.
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 578
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 1:24:00 PM
^^^^ these are not "at will" employees like most of the people who post here (at least, those who are not self-employed). These are highly skilled and paid athletes whose rights are determined by their employment contracts. My guess is there is nothing in those contracts which prohibit peaceful, non-violent civil disobedience. Whether there is anything else in these contracts that allow the NFL owners to tell the employees they cannot kneel is an unknown...certainly it would not come under an immorality clause....as for the future.... the team owners need the players just as much as the players need them. Don't think those owners are going to be able to dictate to the players that they forgo their rights to free speech so easily.
 9Pluto
Joined: 10/15/2007
Msg: 579
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History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 1:35:48 PM
(my horse accidentally posted this ... ignore, my post follows)
 9Pluto
Joined: 10/15/2007
Msg: 580
view profile
History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 1:36:00 PM

People in other countries have said if their sports players didn't stand for the anthem, they would have beers thrown down on them onto the field.


I have witnesses something similar to this. It is not true. Beer is not thrown, it is too valuable in its raw form. The beer is drunk up and the glass passed around to be refilled by anyone that has the urge. Then it is thrown down at the players.


Pluto, for when the flag is not present:

§171. Conduct during playing

... ... When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.


I am confused by this. I think others may be as well. It is my speculation that this code written before the advent of large scale broadcasting and sufficient fidelity in megaphones, and further that it contemplates an orchestra or live band as part of the event rendering the national anthem. I doubt it applies to a situation in a stadium with a sound network, because rather than facing the music, it would need to say, face the performer.

To me if you are an eavesdropper to an event you are not included in any of the activities. You need to be a physical participant. To suggest the contrary is simply contrarian, or as my Mom used to say, 'being a pill'. I can see a cartoon now, that the Americans send an elite team to get the dictator of NK, and then he unleashes the secret weapon: Jams the airwaves and airways with the Star-Spangled Banner, and the Team, and for that matter the whole invading army of a million, stop what they are doing and salute, planes are falling out of the sky, ships are colliding, while Kim's forces pick them all off like sitting ducks.

But if the situation feels right, there is nothing wrong with demonstrating devotion to one's country in any matter they see fit, wherever they may be.
Cheers

9
 toocash
Joined: 9/5/2017
Msg: 581
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 1:48:53 PM
^^^ actually, the Code as I recall, is relatively recent... probably written by some Repub who was trying to show how patriotic he was.... but regardless of being part of the US Code... it is simply a suggestion...its not enforceable and the writers knew that, so there are no criminal penalties for not abiding by it. It is strictly volitional but of course inspirational.

I can't speak for Mexico of course, or what is allowed there or not....but in the US, the Constitution usually means whatever the Supreme Court ultimately says it means and for our purposes.... no law can abridge the right to Freedom of Speech, especially in the context of peaceful, civil-disobedience. That is the takeaway

Yep...just looked...from 1998. Somebody should look up who sponsored this bill.... My guess some Republican who later was found to be a deviant of some sort and was bounced from Congress :-)

36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem
US Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
(Pub. L. 105–225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1263; Pub. L. 110–417, [div. A], title V, §?595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat. 4475.)
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 582
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 3:37:07 PM
^


You don't like it...boycott the NFL, and maybe the Owners of those teams will lay down their own rules for all future contracts. But the government has no say in matter whatsoever


They'll never boycott the NFL...if they do they won't have any excuse for bing drinking and stuffing themselves eating junk food...and expressing Faux outrage that they think makes them look more patriotic than all else!
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 583
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 3:53:01 PM

The NFL or individual team owners can easily and within their rights tell them they can't kneel or sit, because they are at work and they decide what a person can do while on the job.


Congratulations on your fail to understand labor laws in the USA.




I think they didn't know what to do and where concerns about looking bad by telling them they couldn't kneel or sit, because of what the reason was for doing that and then to be called racist, since everyone loves to throw around that word randomly and without reason these days.


I think you have failed to understand that legally they can not tell their players what to do and most of them understand that doing so is what fascist dictators do.




It's up to the NFL and/or team owners to say what it will be, and not the people attending a game or watching, but of course they can respond.


Nope, as what will be is written in the Coinstutuon and people like you seem to want to take a sh8t on it everytime you seem to think you can force people to stand for a song.



Though it is not surprising as the saying goes:

If fascism comes, he added, it will not be identified with any “shirt” movement, nor with an “insignia,” but it will probably be “wrapped up in the American flag and heralded as a plea for liberty and preservation of the constitution.”

James Waterman Wise Jr.
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 584
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 3:53:18 PM

The NFL or individual team owners can easily and within their rights tell them they can't kneel or sit, because they are at work and they decide what a person can do while on the job.


Congratulations on your fail to understand labor laws in the USA.




I think they didn't know what to do and where concerns about looking bad by telling them they couldn't kneel or sit, because of what the reason was for doing that and then to be called racist, since everyone loves to throw around that word randomly and without reason these days.


I think you have failed to understand that legally they can not tell their players what to do and most of them understand that doing so is what fascist dictators do.




It's up to the NFL and/or team owners to say what it will be, and not the people attending a game or watching, but of course they can respond.


Nope, as what will be is written in the Constitution and people like you seem to want to take a sh8t on it every time you seem to think you can force people to stand for a song.



Though it is not surprising as the saying goes:

If fascism comes, he added, it will not be identified with any “shirt” movement, nor with an “insignia,” but it will probably be “wrapped up in the American flag and heralded as a plea for liberty and preservation of the constitution.”

James Waterman Wise Jr.
 benartflick
Joined: 3/8/2012
Msg: 585
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 4:44:57 PM

It's up to the NFL and/or team owners to say what it will be, and not the people attending a game or watching, but of course they can respond.


Nope, as what will be is written in the Coinstutuon and people like you seem to want to take a sh8t on it everytime you seem to think you can force people to stand for a song.


Yes, it IS up to the team owners. There's nothing in our Constitution that suggests otherwise. Do you think the employers (team owners) should have the right to order their employees to stand when our National Anthem is played?

The team owners can force their employees to stand and show respect when our N A is played if they're on their employer's property and on the clock. Otherwise the employers can tell their employees to find employment elsewhere after being warned. Do YOU doubt that? Do YOU think the employers should have that right? How about sharing your opinion?

Also, here in the USA, if I owned a ballpark and put on the admission tickets you must stand when our N A is play, you have to stand or I can have you escorted out of my ballpark. Them's my rules! Ya don't like 'em - don't buy a ticket. Do you have a problem with that or do you think Big Brother should be ordering us what to do?

I'm not aware of any American believing there should be a law requiring people to stand for any song. I can tell by your sentence you're not American. Most of us like our freedom and think Big Brother isn't a protagonist.
 9Pluto
Joined: 10/15/2007
Msg: 586
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History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 4:45:56 PM

^^^ actually, the Code as I recall, is relatively recent... probably written by some Repub who was trying to show how patriotic he was.... but regardless of being part of the US Code... it is simply a suggestion...its not enforceable and the writers knew that, so there are no criminal penalties for not abiding by it. It is strictly volitional but of course inspirational.

I can't speak for Mexico of course, or what is allowed there or not....but in the US, the Constitution usually means whatever the Supreme Court ultimately says it means and for our purposes.... no law can abridge the right to Freedom of Speech, especially in the context of peaceful, civil-disobedience. That is the takeaway

Yep...just looked...from 1998. Somebody should look up who sponsored this bill.... My guess some Republican who later was found to be a deviant of some sort and was bounced from Congress :-)

36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem...


Rather than depend on somebody's recollection or their proclamations of the history of legislation, I prefer to study laws straight from the horse's mouth, although I am an amateur, so forgive me for being disagreeable here.

The custom to use a patriotic anthem at events went viral reputedly from South Dakota (interestingly, your backyard), in the 1800's. However customs regarding the flag were long established before that, though they were not standardized.

Since there was no official national anthem until 1931, there couldn't be any laws regarding it. The legislative process that began was a simple vote on a national song, in 1931. It took ten years and entry into a war to get the first legislation regarding the conduct of civilians during the rendition of the new national anthem. This was adopted by joint resolution of both houses of Congress in 1942, and uses a prior language very similar to the current code which you incorrectly suggested is from some booted Repub deviant that was impeached from Congress as sponsoring a bill in 1998 or something to that effect.

The 1942 language is as follows:
That when the national anthem is played and the flag not displayed, all present should stand and face towards the music .... when the flag is displayed, the salute should be given.

In 1976, both houses, under more than a Democrat 60% supermajority (62% Senate, 67% House), resolved an update of the 1942 flag and anthem laws including the conduct clause above.

Tip O'Neil, was Speaker in 1976, and later became Reagan's foil. Carter won the presidential election a few months later. In the 1976 modification of the law, the Democrats added the requirement of citizens saluting the music, even when the flag was not there - which was a change from the 1942 law which only required salute when the flag was present, but as I stated earlier always required standing which makes the rest of the arguments moot from the poster I had originally answered.

Your 1998 references did not change this clause so your entire premise and by consequence, your narrative is false, despite the data dump you copy pasted with the fancy §§§§§§§§ I can't make on my keyboard.

1998 was simply a bureaucratic consolidation of the US codes with respect to the legislation about facing, standing and saluting during the anthem, with respect to the law. Perhaps it had to do with a re-positioning of the law for the Freedom of Speech and flag burning case, but the language regarding the conduct which we are discussing was unaffected.

I'm empathetic towards your political views, and everyone else's, but I feel a basic human right of all is to have respectful discourse and not be treated with an attitude of acrimony or contempt. Unfortunately that is not covered by the Constitution. My only concern about the "taking a knee" scandal is that it serves to divide rather than unite my friends and neighbors.

Finally, I stand behind my original comment, in that I am not sure the Democrats got the language right when they changed the law in 1976 to include civilians saluting music at public events, and the possible ambiguity gives me doubts about Congress' intention on this fine point, since it is a departure from historical and is not explicit in their text. I can understand it for a military or patriotic band or orchestra with participants in the event, as part of the older customs of respect solidarity and solemnity with the national symbolism inherited for decades (or centuries).

I did not see anyone in this thread is proposing players don't have freedom of speech and the right to exercise it with its benefits or consequences. I am confused why you would dismiss and dissuade people happily assembling for discourse on the politics of the day in a civil manner, by telling them their opinions don't matter. We are not all activists and politics is not everyone's faith or religion.

Cheers
9
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 587
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 5:03:59 PM
It should be no surprise that certain posters pay so little attention to detail. Here is a copy of the latest version of 36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem:


§ 301. National anthem
(a) DESIGNATION.—The composition consisting
of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled
Banner is the national anthem.
(b) CONDUCT DURING PLAYING.—During a rendition
of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the
military salute at the first note of the anthem
and maintain that position until the
last note;
(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans
who are present but not in uniform
may render the military salute in the manner
provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C) all other persons present should face
the flag and stand at attention with their
right hand over the heart, and men not in
uniform, if applicable, should remove their
headdress with their right hand and hold it
at the left shoulder, the hand being over the
heart; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present
should face toward the music and act in the
same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
 John252817
Joined: 8/24/2016
Msg: 588
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 5:08:57 PM
"So this is the bottom line.....for those who don't like NFL players Kneeling....tough sh^t....you have nothing to say about the matter that can change the constitutional rights of the kneeling players.....You don't like it...boycott the NFL, and maybe the Owners of those teams will lay down their own rules for all future contracts. But the government has no say in matter whatsoever, nor do you... and especially nor does that fat fuk who is currently, but hopefully not for long, our President."

^^^^^^^ I see the far left liberals are saying that people who don't agree with players kneeling are suppose to shut up and not say a word. This type of thing goes on repeatedly with the liberals if someone disagrees with them, they tell others to be quiet and shut up. Well, that isn't how it works yule lick the participation trophy. Sorry but it doesn't work that way, you are just making a fool out of yourself......YIKES!!!
__________

"Congratulations on your fail to understand labor laws in the USA."

^^^^^Congratulations but/Lol/Frank/angry atheist on you being so wrong as far as what the employer(NFL) can do. Where do you and yule come from? I don't want to know other then you and many other liberals in here are out in left field, way out in left field....YIKES!!!
 9Pluto
Joined: 10/15/2007
Msg: 589
view profile
History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 5:34:07 PM

It should be no surprise that certain posters pay so little attention to detail.


The text is essentially unchanged since 1942 with the word "should". "Should" can be either a preference or obligation, it is ambiguous.

Since this law has no teeth, it's as moot as the law in Massachusetts that says if you disrespect the flag you get a $100 fine.

9
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 590
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History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 5:58:56 PM
Nobody said you can't give your opinion, it's your ridiculous BS that people are tired of hearing.
 backcreek7
Joined: 12/2/2014
Msg: 591
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History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 6:01:18 PM
OMG !!! ! If it's not the kneeling, now it's an increased amount of theatrics, after certain plays. Squaredancing, leap frogging, performing skits, bumping and grinding, you name it.
And then there was the degenerate, who lifted his leg like a dog ( that dude should be removed from the sport , in my op ) Someone should tell them, it is not a Hollywood stage, it is ~ a playing field.

Holy s*hit, I don't know who in the h*ell they think their entertaining? It sure isn't me, I'm done with the NFL. I was there for the game ( which included players standing, for the anthem ~ showing love and respect for their country ) .
Not for some completely ridiculous display of pompousness. I find it seriously ~ not the least bit entertaining, in fact - it's beyond asinine !

& for any who don't see the difference between standing for the National Anthem ~ or performing ridiculous antics ...
I feel sorry for you ~

^^^ if this post topic, was already covered ~ I digress
 John252817
Joined: 8/24/2016
Msg: 592
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 6:02:46 PM
dayna, reply to what I quoted yule as saying and then try to equate what you just posted to my reply to his post and think of what he said....It's ok to disagree with someone other then trying to pick a fight
YIKES!!!
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 593
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 8:49:23 PM

^^^^^Congratulations but/Lol/Frank/angry atheist on you being so wrong as far as what the employer(NFL) can do.


John I dare say you have not been near an HR office let alone be involved in running a business so I am going to assume you once again are speaking out of your azz via what you hear on faux news.

You can not as an employee infringe on someone constitutional rights, so unless you have a performance clause in the contracts that states that they must be present and also standing then you do not have a leg to stand on.





Where do you and yule come from? I don't want to know other then you and many other liberals in here are out in left field, way out in left field....YIKES!!!


When you type stuff like that john I think your brain is that fried you are running out of ti,e.
 yesmagaDtrump2020
Joined: 10/22/2017
Msg: 594
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/12/2017 9:47:21 PM
Boycott?....Yeah.!

They will feel the pain in their ...pockets ....in a year or two.

Then we will hear them crying.....racism...racism...and so on..
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 595
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/13/2017 6:25:09 AM
Are John McCain and Clapper veterans??????

Anybody wanna inform that helmet head you call a President instead of whining about what football players are doing on a Sunday afternoon.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 596
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/13/2017 10:47:42 AM
hello?

hello?

police violate the law when they arrest, shoot and kill people for dwb.


kneeling is nothing by comparison.

and i think that they should stop now.
 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 597
view profile
History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/13/2017 11:02:53 AM

OMG !!! ! If it's not the kneeling, now it's an increased amount of theatrics, after certain plays. Squaredancing, leap frogging, performing skits, bumping and grinding, you name it.
And then there was the degenerate, who lifted his leg like a dog ( that dude should be removed from the sport , in my op ) Someone should tell them, it is not a Hollywood stage, it is ~ a playing field.

Holy s*hit, I don't know who in the h*ell they think their entertaining? It sure isn't me, I'm done with the NFL. I was there for the game ( which included players standing, for the anthem ~ showing love and respect for their country ) .
Not for some completely ridiculous display of pompousness. I find it seriously ~ not the least bit entertaining, in fact - it's beyond asinine !

& for any who don't see the difference between standing for the National Anthem ~ or performing ridiculous antics ...
I feel sorry for you ~

^^^ if this post topic, was already covered ~ I digress


Those celebrations are getting more ridiculous. I saw some players doing leap frog and a couple of Steelers mocked a scrap from a game the previous week. Billy "White Shoes" Johnson had the best celebration of all-time.
 butheremails
Joined: 11/1/2017
Msg: 598
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/13/2017 1:07:18 PM
Does anyone remember when Pence pretended that he was going a game and then pulled the fake outrage and left?

Well it turns out some people have some questions related to that stunt.


Watchdog pressure escalates Pence’s $242k taxpayer-funded NFL stunt into full-blown scandal
By Oliver Willis | October 9, 2017

Mike Pence charged taxpayers for a ridiculous stunt at an NFL game that the Trump re-election campaign is now using to raise money — and many are asking questions about it, including a government watchdog group.

Americans are angry about Mike Pence’s decision to use hundreds of thousands of dollars for a carefully orchestrated political stunt at an NFL game, and a government watchdog group is now seeking answers.

Pence flew on a government plane to Lucas Oil stadium in Indiana where he appeared for a only few minutes at a Colts game, only to leave quickly in protest of players who have been protesting police brutality. Subsequent disclosures revealed that Pence never intended to stay for the entire game, and soon after, he flew to a fundraiser in Los Angeles.

The Trump re-election campaign is now using the stunt to raise money, telling supporters, “your Vice President REFUSED to dignify” the players as they protested.

The media has estimated that the cost of Pence’s travel, not including security costs, is $242,500. The Trump administration has been under fire for the use of tax dollars in providing unnecessary travel arrangements for senior officials. The scandal has already pushed Tom Price to resign from his position as Health and Human Services secretary.


https://shareblue.com/watchdog-pressure-escalates-pences-242k-taxpayer-funded-nfl-stunt-into-full-blown-scandal/
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 599
view profile
History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/13/2017 1:49:55 PM
Maybe Pence's wife can post a letter on Facebokk from 50 pastors on facebook - ya know like Moore's wife has done...to absolve whatever sin equates to spending other people's money.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 600
view profile
History
Sitting, kneeling or hiding out in the lockeroom during our anthem
Posted: 11/13/2017 2:39:20 PM
Speaking of Moore, with Hannity supporting Moore (not waiting for evidence mind, but supporting him) Hannity has lost 5 advitisers. One of them is a coffee maker, Hannity fans are now breaking their coffee makers. So if you see someone smashing their coffee maker, you might want to keep close contact of where your children are. Reminds me of Huckabee supporting the Duggars lying about their oldest son's incestuous pedophilia.
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