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 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 26
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6 Classes of Single MomsPage 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

Because having a baby makes them an adult.
Having a child is redemptive in a poverty-stricken world.

Relationships are not secure when the male parent, by economic necessity, must engage in high-risk behaviors.
Women would prefer the stability of a partner contributing to the economic welfare of the 'family' unit in which to raise their child/ren but, even if stability is non-existent, the will have children.

Check out "Promises I Can Keep" by Kefalas & Edin


What do you mean high risk behaviours?
It's stupid to have children if stability is non existent.
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 27
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Posted: 8/4/2018 10:01:04 PM
People don't always make decisions that our logical by your standards or mine.

High-risk behaviors - dealing drugs, belonging to a gang
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 28
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Posted: 8/5/2018 11:21:58 AM

People don't always make decisions that our logical by your standards or mine.

High-risk behaviors - dealing drugs, belonging to a gang


Women shouldn't be in relationships with men that do that, never mind having kids with them. Of course people don't always do things that are logical and that's what makes their decisions stupid.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 29
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Posted: 8/5/2018 11:35:21 AM
I think self-esteem issues is the big culprit. It happens just as easily with men. How many men willingly have kids with a woman who is less than stellar?
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 30
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Posted: 8/5/2018 2:34:10 PM

I think self-esteem issues is the big culprit. It happens just as easily with men. How many men willingly have kids with a woman who is less than stellar?

To Aim to settle down to have kids with a gal who's less than stellar (he could do better)? Less, but yes, it does happen definitely too. There are more women than men who are dependent, emotionally & financially on others, hence, you'd expect that more on their side.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 31
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Posted: 8/5/2018 2:44:30 PM
The difference is though that when things turn south the woman is much more likely to be left with the responsibilities as the primary caregiver. Many men walk away.
 flowersinthelake
Joined: 5/11/2018
Msg: 32
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Posted: 8/6/2018 7:16:30 AM
Everybody slams the welfare mom because she's on welfare. Somehow, she must be on drugs or fooling around with men who do drugs. This isn't always true: they raise kids with love and emotional support who grow up to value education, health care, and become doctors, teachers, or whatever else makes them happy.

Many of the elite liberal slam other liberal mothers who are on some kind of government subsidies, meanwhile their kids are spoiled brats with emotional problems. They can't stand healthy competition from somebody of a lower social class.
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 33
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Posted: 8/6/2018 10:10:52 AM

Women shouldn't be in relationships with men that do that, never mind having kids with them. Of course people don't always do things that are logical and that's what makes their decisions stupid.

Stupid by your cultural upbringing and judgment - not theirs.

Women shouldn't be in such relationships - but what happens when virtually all the men you know are in this situation?
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 34
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Posted: 8/6/2018 10:46:21 AM
Its very easy for someone to judge someone else for poor decisions.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 35
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Posted: 8/6/2018 11:35:06 AM

Stupid by your cultural upbringing and judgment - not theirs.

Women shouldn't be in such relationships - but what happens when virtually all the men you know are in this situation?


What culture are you talking about? I live in North America. If all the men you know are selling drugs, the problem is with you and the people you're choosing to associate with. It's never a smart decision to date drug dealers or gang members. I wouldn't even be friends with them.


The difference is though that when things turn south the woman is much more likely to be left with the responsibilities as the primary caregiver. Many men walk away.


Not true. Most divorces are initiated at women, whether they're just bored or looking to trade up. It's not a good idea to have kids with someone that's a flake.
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 36
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Posted: 8/6/2018 2:21:17 PM

What culture are you talking about? I live in North America. If all the men you know are selling drugs, the problem is with you and the people you're choosing to associate with. It's never a smart decision to date drug dealers or gang members. I wouldn't even be friends with them.


North America is home to a lot of different cultures.
If you live someplace and can't afford to move, then you have very little choice of people you associate with.
And, I rather suspect you are friends with someone who deals drugs -- you just may not know it.

A small study simply illustrating cultural differences - bolding is mine:

The American Indian women believed that within their culture, high value was placed on early pregnancy and becoming pregnant validated one's feminine role. Black women did not perceive negative sanctions within their culture if they did not meet the ideal norm of education followed by employment and marriage and children. Becoming a mother at a young age, although not highly desirable, had a fairly high level of acceptance. The white women believed that pregnancy at a young age was undesirable

from Nurse Pract. 1983 Sep;8(8):35, 39, 74. Cultural beliefs and teenage pregnancy.
Three different 'cultures' within the same cities; one with a high value on early pregnancy, one with a null value on early pregnancy, and one with a low value on early pregnancy.

Birth rates are also higher among Hispanic and black adolescents than among their white counterparts.
from https://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-development/reproductive-health-and-teen-pregnancy/teen-pregnancy-and-childbearing/trends/index.html
But WHY is not delved into - these are simple facts. If we do delve into why, it could be (per 1st study) that there is no cultural prohibitions against young/adolescent mothers. And if you live where poverty is endemic, then there is no monetary reason to not have a child (note: this is a supposition of how someone might think.)


Poor teens of color are less likely to have access to quality health care and contraceptive services, and are much more likely to live in neighborhoods where jobs and opportunities for advancement are scarce, according to Gail Wyatt, a clinical psychologist and sex researcher at UCLA.


Young disadvantaged women need to hear positive reasons about the benefits of avoiding early pregnancy, Albert said. “We haven’t done a good job as a nation about telling young people why we think it’s a good idea to delay pregnancy and parenthood,” he said. “I think sometimes these messages come off as anti-family and anti-baby rather than talking about when and under what circumstances it is good to start a family.”

both from http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2015/3/03/racial-and-ethnic-disparities-persist-in-teen-pregnancy-rates

As for the men...
In addition to highlighting income as an important predictor of future imprisonment, the researchers note that race and segregation play a large role. Neighborhoods with high rates of poverty and large shares of black or American Indian residents have even higher rates of incarceration than incomes alone would predict.

https://qz.com/1233966/new-data-clearly-illustrate-the-poverty-to-prison-pipeline/


The neighborhood you grow up in matters. Differences in incarceration rates can vary within cities by a factor of 30 between zip codes that are walking distance apart. Prisoners were disproportionately likely to have grown up in socially isolated and segregated neighborhoods with high rates of child poverty and in predominantly black or American Indian neighborhoods.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/03/14/5-facts-about-prisoners-and-work-before-and-after-incarceration/
So, how can a male partner assist with living expenses if (1) he's incarcerated, (2) unable to find a decent living wage because he's been incarcerated, (3) doing something illegal because he can't find legal opportunities.

Saying 'single motherhood is the worse' is simply wearing blinders to the reality of poverty.
What do you want all those single mothers to do? Find a richer man and have him take care of her?
That's probably why they're single mothers of multiple children by different baby daddies.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 37
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Posted: 8/7/2018 4:38:49 AM
Feminism also plays a role. Many women believe that they don't need a father for their kids long term, that they can do it themselves. Its their body and they can have a baby whenever they want to. Many women do get pregnant on purpose with no intention of a longterm relationship with the father. Unfortunately, its only later that they.learn how difficult it is to be single parents.

Its also normal now to have kids outside a committed relationship and its not just in lower class neighbourhoods. Stats have show an increase in such pregnancies in middles and upper class neighbourhoods.
 Tech30
Joined: 8/11/2017
Msg: 38
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Posted: 8/14/2018 7:12:35 AM
Feminism is destroying families and ruining children. But stay strong you independent women! You dont need anyone or anything. Except welfare and child support...
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 39
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Posted: 8/14/2018 2:08:03 PM
Actually, according to one of the studies cited above, women on welfare are more likely to have 'traditional' views of family life. The male brings home the money while the woman raises the kids.

The entire concept of feminism originated with the idea of equal pay for equal work and the right to have our votes counted.
(Not that we are better then men in any way.)
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 40
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Posted: 8/15/2018 7:59:54 AM
That strikes me as strange that women on welfare have traditional views like that. Many women on welfare were probably not raised in traditional families themselves.

I view marriage differently than I used to. I used to think it was a load of crap and because most people divorce anyhow, what's the point? But now that I'm older I can see how important it is to have a good marriage and a good foundation for your kids.
 oldwxman
Joined: 7/22/2018
Msg: 41
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Posted: 8/15/2018 10:50:13 AM
julystorm22 wrote:
*But now that I'm older I can see how important it is to have a good marriage and a good foundation for your kids.

I wonder if you are not being a little too hasty. Nowadays, marriage is a rich people's game. Just another way of ensuring an unequal playing field. Let's take a close look at what Tech30 said.

Tech30 wrote:
*Feminism is destroying families and ruining children. But stay strong you independent women! You dont need anyone or anything. Except welfare and child support...

I don't want to throw too many rocks at Tech30. He only wants a more just world. He just falls into the conservative trap of blaming Feminism for everything. The last thing he says carries a lot of truth. I've already discussed how child support is blatantly unjust in another thread, so let's dispose of that notion right off the bat. Welfare is a different story. It is the moral and practical obligation of the government to offer all of it's citizens a fighting chance. Suppose single mothers were offered the same support and income that go to rich two parent families?

Single mothers are here to stay. The way forward is to work with it and not just cry about Feminism or anything else.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 42
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Posted: 8/15/2018 2:47:32 PM
Since I've become a single mother I can say that the government programs, even here in Canada, do not give women an incentive for doing better for themselves. I make too much money to be eligible for subsidized housing, extra health benefits, legal aid, social assistance, work supplement, childcare subsidy or any of the other programs for low income families yet I make too little money to afford to live on my own. Sometimes I'm almost ready to throw in the towell and stop working. I make 41,000 per per year gross but keep in mind taxes are pretty high here and I get a lot of other things taken off my paycheque so maybe I get 30,000 take home a year. Most of the low-income programs you need to make under 36,000 gross so I'm right near the cutoff. When I was with my ex, even though he only had a job less than half the time, even an extra $10000 a year made it enough to get by ok. I estimate a household here can live fine on about $50000 a year. And when my ex was not working I could pick up a lot of last minute overtime shifts because I had livein childcare which I don't have now.

Most people who use foodbanks are employed. Our local foodbank the numbers are 27% senior citizens over 65, 58% employed single parent families with children and 15% others. People on welfare, because they are eligible for programs, don't need food banks. I got the numbers from our local newspaper which was talking about the working poor.
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 43
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Posted: 8/16/2018 9:54:20 AM

That strikes me as strange that women on welfare have traditional views like that. Many women on welfare were probably not raised in traditional families themselves.

Most women on welfare WERE raised in traditional families though I can't find the statistics at the moment. But I don't find it strange at all.
For instance, a feminist would probably be able to say 'no' to a man she didn't want to have sex with (whereas a traditional person would probably think that a date + sex would automatically lead to marriage). A feminist would most likely insist on a condom and/or be on some method of birth control (whereas a traditional woman would be 'talked into going without' and would not be on BC). A feminist would be goal-oriented and counting on herself to pay for her future. A traditional woman would be goal-oriented and fulfilled by becoming a mother.

Why do you think that 'women on welfare were probably not raised in traditional families'? If nothing else, then were DID they come from? Forty year ago the.... wait a minute. What do you count as 'traditional'?

My personal definition of 'traditional family' is pre-1940's - when large, extended multi-generational and not-always-related-people lived together. As an example: my great-grandfather, his 2nd wife, her sister, his 16+ kids by 2 wives (not at the same time), one or two of their wives, an ex-slave, and a distant cousin (so distant we're not quite sure he was actually related). Actually, the sons moved out when they got married and built a house nearby.

My definition when I hear other people use the word 'traditional family' in the USA is post-1940's. When men worked and paid for the house while the woman moved away from her family and had children.

So what is your definition of 'traditional'?


I view marriage differently than I used to. I used to think it was a load of crap and because most people divorce anyhow, what's the point? But now that I'm older I can see how important it is to have a good marriage and a good foundation for your kids.


It's more important to have social support so a person can build a good foundation for their kids. The support doesn't have to be from a spouse - it can be from a partner (male or female, sex or not, extended family or blood relatives) or from the government. However, husband+wife+2.2 kids is the belief of most of North Americans and they look down on anyone who does it differently. There is scorn for 'welfare queens' and young pregnant girls... when they're actually not the majority of welfare recipients.

Not citations - but good information anyway.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/single-mothers-are-not-americas-real-welfare-queens

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/book-review/single-mothers-and-welfare.htm
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 44
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Posted: 8/17/2018 3:57:48 PM
Actually, when I worked for social services, the big thing I did notice was that most of the families on assistance were single mothers with kids who they themselves had been the children of single mothers living on welfare. The stats for Saskatchewan where I live may or may not be the norm. A big percentage of welfare recipients in my province are First Nations (Aboriginal) people who do not often have traditional families due to the breakdown in family units which occurred in the 60s and 70s from misguided government programs. Many First Nations people who are welfare recipients came out of foster care. That's a sad truth.

There are a lot of single mothers on welfare who are not likely to be longterm recipients. These women were often raised in traditional middleclass or lowerclass families and are on assistance due to having their kids at young ages and not having good education for better-paying jobs or lack of access to childcare. There's a program here in Saskatchewan that basically pays for single parents on welfare to go to school and improve their education so they can get better-paying jobs and go off welfare. Many women do opt for this program. The ones who don't or the ones not successful with it are the ones who they themselves were raised on welfare and this is a normal life for them.
6 Classes of Single Moms
Posted: 8/28/2018 5:04:09 AM

People on welfare, because they are eligible for programs, don't need food banks

Don't spread false information. This is NOT true. My friends son, who took ill and is on a waiting list for a heart transplant, was forced to quit work and go on ODSP. Which is welfare for the disabled. He cannot afford to eat as well as pay rent. He has to get help from the food bank every month. There is NO other program to help with food costs. ODSP gives a small amount to help with his "special diet" but still it is not enough. Most people on welfare do not get the special diet amount. Looking in to this for him we were utterly shocked in a country as rich as Canada, just how awful the poor and disabled are treated. The general public are under this assumption they are living the high life.

He is expected to survive on little more than 13,000 a year. Please don't biatch and whine about how bad you have it, not being able to move out of Mom's house. You can afford to eat and don't have to go to a food bank every month, deathly ill, begging for a loaf of bread. He would gladly trade you places, any day!
 oldwxman
Joined: 7/22/2018
Msg: 46
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Posted: 8/28/2018 8:29:55 AM
*Don't spread false information. This is NOT true. My friends son, who took ill and is on a waiting list for a heart transplant, was forced to quit work and go on ODSP. Which is welfare for the disabled. He cannot afford to eat as well as pay rent. He has to get help from the food bank every month. There is NO other program to help with food costs. ODSP gives a small amount to help with his "special diet" but still it is not enough. Most people on welfare do not get the special diet amount. Looking in to this for him we were utterly shocked in a country as rich as Canada, just how awful the poor and disabled are treated. The general public are under this assumption they are living the high life.

Makes me sad. I lived in Canada for a while and thought welfare services were better than the US. I must have been mistaken. As a crippled diabetic, it makes my head spin to think what life would be like without my comfy pension and insurance. Most people don't have what I have. I kinda hoped that Canada would be a good example for America. To know the truth now, pops that little balloon. God help us all if Canada gets even more Trumpy.
6 Classes of Single Moms
Posted: 8/28/2018 9:36:15 AM
"makes my head spin to think what life would be like without my comfy pension and insurance. Most people don't have what I have. I kinda hoped that Canada would be a good example for America. To know the truth now, pops that little balloon. God help us all "

I am a grown man here, and admit I've been bawling like a baby over Mccain for the last few days.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 48
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Posted: 8/28/2018 9:54:53 AM
Actually, you are in Ontario and it is a different system there. While welfare does not exactly leave you living a plush life or anything, being below a certain income does qualify you for several programs. My sister-in-law still is on welfare 5 years later and my cousin was on it for several years as well until her youngest kid turned 12 and then she lost a few of the subsidies and it was no longer worthwhile for her. Never once did either of them have to go to the food bank plus both were/are smokers and a lot of money was obviously going to their cigarettes. Both of them lived in subsidized housing and both of them got free childcare and free schooling through the program. I always found it rather ridiculous when both of them had their kids in a full time daycare spot not paying anything for it when they were only in school part-time. And from my year and a half having to go to a food bank, I observed the other people there, many who I knew. Of the ones with kids, all the families had at least one parent employed.

If you have kids, particularly younger kids, you qualify for an array of programs and subsidies and you live better than a family that makes above $33,000 a year. The more kids you have under 12, the more money you get. You get more money for kids under 6. As for those on welfare without children under 12, there is a lot less money gotten as you are not eligible for subsidies. So yes, while the guy you are talking about is on disability and uses the food bank, that's very much a normal occurrence. People on disability and the elderly living on a pension are eligible for very little money and many do use food banks.
6 Classes of Single Moms
Posted: 8/28/2018 1:11:58 PM

both of them got free childcare and free schooling through the program.

Jeeze, when school resumes and I start volunteering at the alternative school again, I'm going to have to tell all the welfare moms there to move to Saskatchewan. You want to go to school here in Ontario and you apply for student loans like everyone else. You are right though, the system in Ontario is different than the one in Saskatchewan. There is workfare here, if you want your check you need to be looking for a job or if you haven't got a grade 12 they make you get one. Just until recently, any child support paid was clawed back. I think the more recent changes by the federal government with the child benefit has made it possible for those on welfare with kids, to not have to use the food bank. That is what is was designed for though, to help lift kids out of poverty. Everyone receives this, with children, not just people on welfare. Single people on welfare here only receive around 750 a month. Food bank use among them is very high!
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 50
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Posted: 8/28/2018 1:47:23 PM
The Canada Child Benefit program helps a lot of people to make ends meet, especially single mothers. Not getting it right now is why I have to continue to live at my mother's. It is just not possible for me to live on my own and pay for things on a single income without that benefit. When I was with my ex, even though he was unemployed over half the time, an extra $10,000 a year in addition to my income was enough for our household to live on. I think where we live, I would need an income of about $40,000 take-home ($50,000 gross) a year to survive on WITHOUT subsidies. Rental subsidies for families of 3 kids are given for those with a gross income below $36,000 (My gross income is about $44,000) so for families making between $36,000 and $50,000, it's very difficult. I currently make take-home, about $2500 a month. I used to make $2600 a month take-home but due to healthcare cuts, my shifts were downsized from 8 hours to 7 hours so I lost about 14 hours a pay check. The Canada Child Benefit I am entitled to is $1200. That's a huge amount, and would increase my income by 33%. Basically that would cover my rent and utilities. Now, I am currently paying back a loan co-signed by my mom that was taken out a few years ago and I pay $400 a month to that and I pay about $500 a month for childcare (luckily my mom helps me out by babysitting alot for free otherwise the amount for childcare would be twice that) and $490 for my van payment so that's $1390 right there. Gas every month totals at least $600 a month and vehicle insurance totals $162 putting me to $1990 which would leave $348 for rent, utilities, food, kids' recreation costs, school fees, phone bill, etc. so you can see why it's an impossibility. That doesn't even include the legal fees I have to pay off but my lawyer has given me time until I can get my government child benefits reinstated.
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