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 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 51
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LaFouGamboj writes:

Except that big enterprise has lobbied politicians to "look the other way" for decades....and ignore the fact that they are being hired "en masse"...because there is a huge demand for cheap labor....., just like the demand for drugs.
Sure, I agree. And that is the problem endemic to BOTH parties, which is why both parties s*ck. Maybe for somewhat different reasons, as both push for the different objectives of the power elites. And that's why, in my estimation, you see so many fatalistic voters going for someone like Trump, i.e, not "business as usual."


And you think the Repubs are going to approve of such ^ action?......don't you see what Trump is doing?....It is far easier to scapegoat "brown" people, then it is to lay the BLAME on where it truly lies!
Of course the GOP doesn't "lay the blame where it truly lies," but then again, neither do the Dems. So if a citizen pays attention, and identifies corporate managements are the problem, a partisan remedy is moot. Cuz neither party has the cojones to slap down the ultimate source of their funding. That leaves destruction of the political system as the only tool the voter has left.. ...i.e. a "throwing a monkey wrench" into it. Enter Trump... as the bearer of that monkey wrench.


only if the lobbying for the status-quo stops
And more importantly, VOTING for the status quo. Thus...drumroll.....Enter Trump. Trump was an anti-establishment vote as much as anything, a vote for frustration, a vote for "let's blow this dang thing up!!!"


what traditional 'GOP pol' are you talking about?............was Reagan traditional?......
Reagan began his campaign in Philadelphia Miss for a symbolic reason. If you don't know, I'll let you look it up. Also "Welfare queens," etc. etc.


if so then why did he grant amnesty to about 3 million illegals
Reagan was smart enough to realize that poor unemployed blacks weren't of any help to the corporate elite, while cheap, desparate, malleable labor was.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 52
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Posted: 1/9/2019 7:55:49 AM
LaFouGamboj writes:
at what expense?
-He wanted to repeal & replace Obama care.....at the expense of creating 20 million unsured overnight!
Got me there - That was bad, although O-Care was simply a nod to corporate, Wall Street driven healthcare. And our per capita HC costs continue to explode. But overall, I concede O-Care is an improvement over what we had prior and would never support repealing it and would not trust any GOP stab at trying to replace it.



-He wanted to stimulate the economy by giving the mega rich a tax cut....but he ballooned the deficit, and there is still no major substantive effects on the baseline economy itself (look up and see how much money companies such as At&T, Verizon, Walmart...ect, have made in 2108 because of the new tax law).
That idiot tax cut was probaby the worst thing he has done, so I havta agree here.

But the bottom line on this one, as well as the O-Care thing above, is that it can be argued that any other GOP Pol (Jeb? Kasich? Christie? Pence? etc. etc.) with the majorities Trump enjoyed.... may have taken steps towards these things, especially the ruinous tax cut.


-He threatens tariffs on Chinese goods.....and in turn China imposed heavy restrictions on Soy coming from the US, to the point where Trump has had to BAIL OUT soy growers all over the US
Al though I don't favor the willy-nilly way Trump is implementing tariffs, I do support tariffs. Trump is right about trade. And I will again ask this question, probably again to a chorus of crickets: If free trade is so great, will bring us so many good jobs, then why is agriculture held up as the main damaged industry when free trade is stopped? Yes, Ag - the industry of millions of dirty, hard, low wage jobs? The industry that employs 75% illegal labor? Where are the "good" jobs free trade is supposed to bring.? Um. There aren't that many. At least for the working class. Maybe it's just me, but ultimately I don't care about Ag, sure we gotta eat, but as as a glowing exhibit of a free trade industry that will produce good jobs for the future? Nah.


-He wants to build a wall on the southern border to stop "the brown menace" (his term); and spend over 5 billion of taxpayer money (when he promised it was going to be paid by Mexico), to stop imaginary terrorists from coming across (when the real port of entry are airports & seaports for most illegals & contraband)
I don't favor the wall. I don't favor demonizing brown people. I favor throwing CEOs in jail for hiring them.


...and you naively think that Trump hasn't "kowtowed" to money interests?
He's kowtowing less than a mainstream GOP'er though. Or a Dem. Implementing tariffs and stopping immigration definitely is NOT kowtowing to moneyed interests. Questioning drug prices is NOT kowtowing to moneyed interests. Calling out companies for offshoring is NOT kowtowing. Shouting Amazon down for its business model is NOT kowtowing. Most pols of both sides applaud these things, ie, they kowtow.


-Whatever happened to his pledge to corral the Wall street hedge-fund sheisters?
-What do you think prompted him to weaken the environmental (EPA) regulations and refute global warming?
Yes, these are bad. BUT........There can be made a case that if other countries are allowed to pollute more than us, it gives them an unfair advanatage and a chance to catch up with us economically. Same thing with Hedge funds/banking....if other countries let their own HFs/bankers rip them off, and crash their economies, we kinda gotta do the same thing, or else our financial sector falls behind. Whether you agree or not, it is an arguable point. But then again, that's why I am anti-globalisation.


Most democrats also favor it..........but there are better ways to do it.............compromise is the key.
That's news to me. I think it may be more accurate to say Dems favor making it easier to make illegal immigrants legal. And make it easier for people to immigrate. And for the record,, I favor some type of amnesty for those already here before curbing illegal immigration by other means.


If Trump were to pledge a resolution to the DACA problem........he could garner more support from the democrats toward erecting some form of barrier that everyone could be happy with.

In short, you get more bees with honey....... than you do with brine!
Ultimately, the frustration remains, though because most solutions from both sides, if I am not mistaken, increases immigration. I have no problem with immigration per se, we need the best and brightest, no matter where they are from, what color they are, what religion, etc. etc. etc.....BUT I don't think we need more unskilled immigrants. Not in an advanced, modern economy, that I've been reminded here ad nauseum we are now. Folks here will argue that "This is the way it is! A modern economy! Automation, computer skills, education is the future!!" So if that is the case, then WHY do we need to continue to allowed unfettered immigration of unskilled, undeducated people? Can't have it both ways, far as I'm concerned. All that does is suppress wages..which is the ultimate objective of immigration, for the most part, so the elites can make more money. Thus I oppose it.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 53
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Posted: 1/9/2019 10:42:37 AM
Constitutional law expert and Harvard professor Lawrence Lessig dismissed President Donald Trump’s characterization of the immigrant situation at the Mexican border as a crisis on Sunday, then said the real national emergency was “this president.”

Asked about Trump’s threat to declare a national emergency on the southern border so that he can order his wall built without congressional approval, Lessig told MSNBC: “The man is using words that have no connection to reality.”

“He says we have a national crisis ... a national emergency. I agree we have a national emergency, but the emergency is this president,” Lessig added. “The emergency is the fact we don’t have an executive who’s exercising his power in a responsible way.”

Lessig said the president can’t build his wall without the backing of Congress.

“Ultimately he has no constitutional authority to exercise the power to build this wall without Congress’ approval,” Lessig said. “These statutes were certainly not written with the intent to give a man like Donald Trump the power that he’s now claiming.”

In an opinion piece Lessig published in The Guardian on Friday, he said the Constitution would not uphold the actions of a president who shut down the government to insist on a program that was not supported by the public. Lessing referred to the situation as a “veto-ocracy,” ruled by “petulance” rather than “principle.”

If the Republicans support Trump in this, they are saying that any president can “support whatever policy he likes,” including, say, to nationalize health insurance.

“The fools are they who enable this constitutional immorality,” Lessig wrote. “Those fools are the Senate Republicans, who have placed party over country, and President Trump over the Republican Party.”
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 54
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Posted: 1/9/2019 7:10:19 PM
@ SS


I kinda admire him due to the fact that he is doing the things he campaigned on. Even though I did not vote for him, it can be a breath of fresh air for those of us who are sick and tired of politicians telling people what they want to hear, and then immediately kowtowing to moneyed interests as soon as they get into power.


My response in msg 50 above..... was mainly predicated by the remark ^ you made in msg 47.

As we can look back on his 2016 campaign............many did indeed "admire" his grit and his populist stance....and it would have perhaps truly been a "breath of fresh air"...........had he actually tried to do all that he promised in a coherent & methodical way (instead of the chaotic, haphazard methods he employs), which would have required him to actually LISTEN to people who are politically savvy and have some experience in politics (unlike himself).

I also understand why voters are sick & tired of being taken for granted by the "usual suspects" running for office (and maybe something good will result from the Trump experiment............in that perhaps mainstream politicians will now seek to be more attentive to their respective base, once in office)......but voting for Trump (a person who has no political experience and never held office........a grifter notwithstanding)...............is like you hiring a self taught Electrician (instead of a fully licenced & trained individual) to fix the bad wiring in your home because:

a) he speaks to you in simple direct terms
b) you like how he is able to pin point the problems and offered a quick fix
c) he won't charge you too much

It would be a "breath of fresh air" to hear someone articulate what the problems are in simple terms and offer a direct fix without it costing you a month's pay!

But that is NOT what we got!...............we got a man who is creating new problems (if not more), while pledging to fix old issues that he promised to fix in his campaign crusade............we got a man who said "I didn't know insurance was so complex"...this is coming from a man whose line of work, REQUIRES him to understand insurance and liability.


it can be argued that any other GOP Pol (Jeb? Kasich? Christie? Pence? etc. etc.) with the majorities Trump enjoyed.... may have taken steps towards these things, especially the ruinous tax cut.


Yes, they would have taken steps to do what you wrote, but unlike Trump.....they would not have proceded to do it in a reckless & acrimonious way (at least not for JEB or Kasich).......that is the difference between how a politician does it...versus an ignorant crooked neophyte like Trump


Al though I don't favor the willy-nilly way Trump is implementing tariffs, I do support tariffs. Trump is right about trade.


Most people agree with this ^................but again, there is a smart way, and a dumb way to do it...........the problem with Trump (like what we are seeing with the gov-shut down), is that he likes to "strong arm" others into doing things his way................and that does NOT work in the realm of politics as much as it does in his line of work........these things take time, and the tariffs need to be phased in gradually without de-stabilizing the markets


Yes, Ag - the industry of millions of dirty, hard, low wage jobs? The industry that employs 75% illegal labor? Where are the "good" jobs free trade is supposed to bring.? Um. There aren't that many. At least for the working class.


"free trade" (if you insinuate globalism)...........should not be blamed for the faulty domestic rules/laws that favor the mega wealthy...............as you pointed out; if there were internal enforceable laws that seriously penalized those who hire a labor force that was 75% illegal, then clearly you'd have a larger number of lawful citizens doing this (dirty) job....albeit at a much higher rate of pay!


He's kowtowing less than a mainstream GOP'er though. Or a Dem. Implementing tariffs and stopping immigration definitely is NOT kowtowing to moneyed interests. Questioning drug prices is NOT kowtowing to moneyed interests. Calling out companies for offshoring is NOT kowtowing. Shouting Amazon down for its business model is NOT kowtowing. Most pols of both sides applaud these things, ie, they kowtow.


What you have to try and see, is the impetus behind what Trump says and does...........he wants to implemet tariffs in the hope that "big business" can better sell their (US made) wares in foreign markets without being penalized....he doesn't care how much more the average citizen will have to pay for the many imported items that we use daily....and could NEVER be manufactured here at a moment's notice, if the current prices were to sky-rocket.

Trump questions drug prices because the same drug sold in many other countries is far cheaper than what it is here...simply because big Pharma is price regulated in most other countries...and this because most of the places have nationalized health care with controls built in...............the very thing that the Repubs & Trump have fought against.


There can be made a case that if other countries are allowed to pollute more than us, it gives them an unfair advanatage and a chance to catch up with us economically.


So what do we do?
Lets loosen the environmental laws so we can gain an edge....while at the same time going back to the 1960's and 70's where all our rivers & streams were polluted, and smog was nearly everywhere....and polluters can get a slap on the wrist...............all in the name of keeping up with the "joneses"


Same thing with Hedge funds/banking....if other countries let their own HFs/bankers rip them off, and crash their economies, we kinda gotta do the same thing, or else our financial sector falls behind


I have to plead ignorance here ^....................maybe you could explain to me how cottling a greedy hedge-fund industry is beneficial to our financial health


I think it may be more accurate to say Dems favor making it easier to make illegal immigrants legal. And make it easier for people to immigrate.


I agree^..............but under "normal" circumstances, the Democrats know that they would have to make concessions in the immigration debate............and would need to be flexible in the negotiating process, just as the Repubs would have to be.............that is how deals are made!


we need the best and brightest, no matter where they are from, what color they are, what religion, etc. etc. etc


This ^ is already in place..........since the post war era, the US conducts a "brain drain" policy.....which involves enticing the brightest & best graduates from all over...to come to the US and work here


BUT I don't think we need more unskilled immigrants. Not in an advanced, modern economy, that I've been reminded here ad nauseum we are now.


I don't know if you ever done manual labor..............see how much the average person lasts (before he breaks down) doing back breaking work in all extremes of weather year after year!

Regardless of how advanced we are............we will always need those who do the dirty jobs in the ditches, fields, rocks and muck......there are no robots for these jobs


WHY do we need to continue to allowed unfettered immigration of unskilled, undeducated people? Can't have it both ways, far as I'm concerned. All that does is suppress wages..which is the ultimate objective of immigration, for the most part, so the elites can make more money. Thus I oppose it.


Technically ^ you are right..............but now try to convince an entire generation of millenials that being "successful" also means being will to do farm, agricultural, sewer, street cleaning, janitorial labor, etc, etc.............and if you can convince them of that, then sure.............we wont need anymore unskilled illegals coming in.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 55
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Posted: 1/9/2019 7:30:14 PM
^^^actually, some of the top experts in the world think the trump tariffs are a big mistake, will simply cost american consumers more while driving business to other low cost producers like vietnam or mexico who will raise prices enough to just undercut the cost of the tarrifs on china.

Additionally, tariffs on a world wide basis were pretty much in Equilibrium until trump, on a whim, without any well thought out policy or reason has mucked up the system.

And china is being hurt, its economy dramatically slowing. If china goes down, it will take the world economy with it.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 56
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Posted: 1/10/2019 10:51:30 AM
1) vietnam vets got treated differently from other vets b/c the war was different. TV news brought the usual war atrocities to our immediate attention, we lost the war, and how many watching TV shows in the 1970's remember the character who was always a wacko going off and killing people was....the vietnam vet? "soldiers' heart" was never a household word until Vietnam gave us, PTSD.

2) there are two ways to keep out those illegals, one is cracking down on the companies hiring them, and the other is to help their economies grow. of course, that makes them our economic competitors, ie, Brazil already sells arms.

3) why does SS454 hear about the farmers? well, one reason is the tariffs hit when farmers are planning out how many seeds to buy and what they need to upgrade for growing season. so they held off, naturally, to see how much they were going to get screwed. as for factories who need cheap metal to make products, they too forcast doom, but SS454 never heard it. perhaps one reason is those factories still had old product in the pipeline to sell. but now they're forcasting poor profits, and thus the stock market took a dive in december. wonder what those steel slats chump wants for a wall are going to cost you and me.

4) yes, it is traditional for Republicans to follow Nixon's southern strategy and bait the racists. Ford was the only one who tried to avoid it. as for factories polluting, funny thing...they're following the Paris accords, and what did chump do? as for hedge funds, we ain't following nobody in selling derivatives/options to suckers who don't understand these products of the devil--everyone's following us. When Greek took down the world economy last time, it was from cooked bookeeping we taught them. arthur anderson is dead, long live arthur anderson.

5) what's up with chump's sniffling during the speech? everyone says its adderol addiction. but i will say, the dems sure failed to make a case. all they had to do was counter with facts, but they left it to every news media in the world to do their job for them. its pretty bad when Faux Phews does a better job of fact checking the liar than the opposing political party does.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 57
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Posted: 1/21/2019 9:19:59 AM
Baldwin wrote:


3) why does SS454 hear about the farmers? well, one reason is the tariffs hit when farmers are planning out how many seeds to buy and what they need to upgrade for growing season. so they held off, naturally, to see how much they were going to get screwed. as for factories who need cheap metal to make products, they too forcast doom, but SS454 never heard it.
Nah. Y'all gotta start looking behind the curtain a bit more.....I'm a bit more cynical. The answer is because Americans still hold farmers in high regard, because they're always portrayed as "Small farmers" as part of Americana....i.e. struggling, hardworking, salt of the earth folks, Cleve and Bessie and their sons Burl and Bubba, just barely ekeing a living..with a patch of land and a few cows. Who wouldn't pull for them? When in reality, most farms are corporate factory farms ultimately controlled by silk stockinged managers, traders and financiers on Wall Street..It isn't called "Big Ag" for nothing. Look at Trump's recent deregulations of EPA rules, where he points our he's "unburdening the farmers" from these draconian regulationss, as those farmers stood by during the signing.......but if you look who's lurking behind the veil, it's developers and fossil fuel industry who mainly benefits.


4) yes, it is traditional for Republicans to follow Nixon's southern strategy and bait the racists. Ford was the only one who tried to avoid it. as for factories polluting, funny thing...they're following the Paris accords, and what did chump do? as for hedge funds, we ain't following nobody in selling derivatives/options to suckers who don't understand these products of the devil--everyone's following us. When Greek took down the world economy last time, it was from cooked bookeeping we taught them. arthur anderson is dead, long live arthur anderson.
Yes, one of our large "exports" is now banking "expertise," and somehow these "exports" are sold to us as being as beneficial to us all, as exporting hard goods. This is not true, the export of smoke and mirrors benefit mainly a few in the upper echelons of business, but nobody else. That's one of the problems of globalization - when everyone builds using the same bogus house of cards, they all come down at once. But ultimately financial services deregulation and massive rollup of banking into behemoth conglomerates, that added risk to the entire system, was as a result of foreign competition - that was my point.

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/07/us/treasury-now-favors-creation-of-huge-banks.html
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 58
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Posted: 1/21/2019 9:33:24 AM
LaFouGamboj writes:

As we can look back on his 2016 campaign............many did indeed "admire" his grit and his populist stance....and it would have perhaps truly been a "breath of fresh air"...........had he actually tried to do all that he promised in a coherent & methodical way (instead of the chaotic, haphazard methods he employs), which would have required him to actually LISTEN to people who are politically savvy and have some experience in politics (unlike himself).
I would agree. Problem is, there's no candidate who would have done it in a "coherent & methodical" way. And not enough consensus in Washington among either party, to support such steps such as tariffs, even sensibly implemented. So a ramrod and a hot poker is required to get these things done. I will say, that I doubt the Dem base here would be as irate if someone like President Bernie Sanders was acting so resolutely and chaotically to ram something like Medicare for all through Washington. I know, myself, I would cheer.

So far as Trump supporters are concerned..... better a sloppy attempt than no attempt at all, maybe? "Well, he tried! Which is better than any other POS pol of either party!" I can hear Trump supporters saying


a grifter notwithstanding)...............is like you hiring a self taught Electrician (instead of a fully licenced & trained individual) to fix the bad wiring in your home because:

a) he speaks to you in simple direct terms
b) you like how he is able to pin point the problems and offered a quick fix
c) he won't charge you too much
You forgot d). He may just burn the house down. Which I'm sure, somewhere, somehow, a careless or clueless electrician has done. And to some, is better than sticking with the conventional establishment controlled system.

Net net, at least for me, is I mostly agree with you, but as a "protest" President, maybe part of the design is to make noise and break things, not be ultimately successful. And for the most part, I have already written elsewhere that he is contaminating the whole tariff discussion and building the perfect excuse for the next recession/depression. Because when we do crash, it will be tariffs, or "Trump's trade war," and NOT the deficit, NOT the idiot tax cut, NOT artificially low interest rates, NOT financial deregulation, NOT exploding inequality, NOT $100B/yr corporate tax evasion, NOT $trillions wasted on imperialistic wars. Or NOT that we are simply overdue for a slowdown/recession. It will be tarrifs. The table is being set for the harummphing from business elites and the neoliberalals...and their bootlicking MSM ...."We told you tarriffs were bad - they caused the recession!"
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 59
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Posted: 1/23/2019 11:26:09 AM
Nah. Y'all gotta start looking behind the curtain a bit more.....I'm a bit more cynical. The answer is because Americans still hold farmers in high regard, because they're always portrayed as "Small farmers" as part of Americana....i.e. struggling, hardworking, salt of the earth folks, Cleve and Bessie and their sons Burl and Bubba, just barely ekeing a living..with a patch of land and a few cows. Who wouldn't pull for them? When in reality, most farms are corporate factory farms ultimately controlled by silk stockinged managers, traders and financiers on Wall Street..It isn't called "Big Ag" for nothing. Look at Trump's recent deregulations of EPA rules, where he points our he's "unburdening the farmers" from these draconian regulationss, as those farmers stood by during the signing.......but if you look who's lurking behind the veil, it's developers and fossil fuel industry who mainly benefits."

>>>you are absolutely correct, SS454, the GOP does promote the farmer as the simple man, free of guile or guilt, we should all listen to. around here, most farms are family farms that enter co-ops with others, while Big Ag is where the land is cheap (midwest and south) and trump wins the popular opinion from them farming types. and yet when the GOP used them to pass an estate tax or deregulating the EPA, the farmers still get screwed.

as for their desire to just burn the house down...there's an old saying about not burning down the house to solve the ant problem, for a reason. revenge feels good, but its just spiting the face to slice off one's nose. every claim to want to burn the whole thing down needs to be answered with,

"and what's your plan for what happens after that? ever thought that far?"

what happens when we throw out the war machine that put us on top of the mound? will our enemies just let things go? what happens to 800,000 people when the government shuts down? when we get rid of wall street, where will people go to get a credit card to buy groceries? where are they going to go for a mortgage so they can buy the american dream?

we may hate what america has become, but we sure as hell profit off it in our daily lives.
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