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 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 26
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migrant caravanPage 2 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

"""why the hell would anyone make up a story that illegal immigrants took their jobs?""

Because the complexities of the economy are beyond them and they are easy prey for scapegoaters like trump. Fact is the loss of blue collar jobs, especially in fly over america, has little to do with immigration, illegal or not.
minus the dig, I agree with that. 'some' of those reasons set the tone long before the latino invasion. that can be discussed in another thread if you like. what I refer to is existing jobs being filed with immigrants for cash or on a 1099/subcontract and never paying into system. now them ripping off the government isn't what created the tension between blue collar workers. they are able to work for 30% less and take home the same. the jobs did not go away, they were taken at a reduced rate and that is what created the tension often misread as hatred, racism or ignorance. the constant denial that it even exists just adds fuel to the fire. now fast forward to todays caravan. while most (I hope) see immigrants in need of help, many displaced workers only see a mass of immigrants coming to take more jobs.
 Rumours
Joined: 6/4/2018
Msg: 27
migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 8:09:04 AM
^^^Ya know...Cotter.
I believe, I watched a documentary on the Somalians coming there.
So, I believe you. They had all the quirks.
 Noftheborder
Joined: 10/4/2018
Msg: 28
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 8:53:31 AM

now them ripping off the government isn't what created the tension between blue collar workers. they are able to work for 30% less and take home the same. the jobs did not go away, they were taken at a reduced rate and that is what created the tension often misread as hatred, racism or ignorance. the constant denial that it even exists just adds fuel to the fire.

They aren't the one's ripping off the government...those who employ them in that manner are. Again, those are illegal "immigrants", not "refugees". There is a distinct difference.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 29
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 12:34:56 PM
in order to work a legal job, one needs a SSN. with that, yes, you are paying into the system, and few illegals stick around (either ICE catches them, they migrate to another location, go home to die amongst family, etc). I think the estimate is $12 billion. also, anything they buy, if they pay sales tax in that state, they're contributing. if they pay rent, their landlord pays property tax based on that. Now they may take an "under the tabl" job away, but what does a legal citizen need one of those for? typically to avoid paying child support or taxes. i don't feel bad for those citizens. As for subcontracting, as someone pointed out, that's the business' fault, working under the benefit of "don't interfere with business" Republicans, i'd wager (funny how that party wasn't so upset about cuban immigrants, knowing they'd vote conservative and make florida a swing state).

the average worker has more to worry about a robot taking over their repetitive job, as efficiency is the focus of business. i remember when delivery drivers loved that their boss wasn't looking over their shoulder, and now GPS is so cheap its even built into pallets so that everything can be traced. take too long chatting over a cup of joe, get a text asking why you aren't back on the road yet.
 Carnival_Fishing
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 30
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 2:00:51 PM
Trump has said there are people from the middle east (aka Muslims) among the people in the migrant caravan, and because they're from middle eastern countries, then obviously, they are terrorists. What else could they possibly be? That means these people flew half way around the world to enter into a Central American country undetected, and participate in walking hundreds or thousands of miles with only the clothes on their backs. That makes sense-if you're smoking some funny tobacco.

Maybe Trump is mad because there are more people involved in the migrant caravan than people who showed up for his inauguration.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 31
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 3:00:59 PM

Now they may take an "under the tabl" job away, but what does a legal citizen need one of those for? typically to avoid paying child support or taxes. i don't feel bad for those citizens.
my point was those jobs were legal jobs just ten years ago. many of the construction jobs are now 1099. employee responsible for taxes. others are straight cash for less pay. either of the two eliminate the 'legal job' from the legal citizen. anyone that ever worked on a 1099 legally knows the s.s, income tax, etc. runs around 40% above your wage. a 'legal' citizen would need $140.00 to keep $100.00. an illegal can work for $100.00, throw away the 1099 and keep it all! the 'legal citizen' can not compete so the job is no longer worth doing. I know MANY skilled craftsmen that now work factories or other jobs beneath their abilities because it pays more. this is how illegals take the jobs and why so many consider them a threat.
 Rumours
Joined: 6/4/2018
Msg: 32
migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 3:27:53 PM
Oh....I get you now.
We have people that do that up here as well..... but they're not illegals stealing the jobs.
Sub-contractors working under the table...straight cash jobs being done.
People can do the job just as adequately but don't have all the tickets/schooling/training/overhead..

When I owned a farm...I couldn't afford to hire the big guns. There was always somebody that knew somebody.
I would make sure I educated myself first on what I needed done.....thank you to youtube and growing up helping others build etc...
The ticketed contractors also may have insurances and larger overhead costs...but a lot of people(like me) would hire a uninsured, uncertified individual to keep costs down or what they could afford....that's the way it goes.
I know...it sucks.

A few years back...I was looking for a job...fully experienced/over qualified in my field.
Reliable...responsible...honest...hard worker...but nope, I didn't get hired.
I blame those younger b1tches.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 33
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 3:28:29 PM
johnfromzelie:

my point was those jobs were legal jobs just ten years ago. many of the construction jobs are now 1099. employee responsible for taxes. others are straight cash for less pay. either of the two eliminate the 'legal job' from the legal citizen.

Do you really think the left are too dumb to understand this?.... they seem to understand it just fine in the context of protecting union jobs... I think most of them just like to play stupid when overwhelmed by facts.

...also, doesn't it seems quite bigoted when someone tries to make the argument that "those jobs aren't good enough for Americans.... we'll leave them for the illegals... who cares if they're underpaid".

illegals

Whoops!... I shouldn't be using this hateful rhetoric.... I meant to say scabs.
 rednwhiterider
Joined: 6/23/2018
Msg: 34
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 5:08:54 PM
wow. lots of great posts.
I doubted it would make it past the vote.

some folks have rented their entire brain to trump... for free.
say he's not a business man. ha

I don't know who or even if they are organized by anyone.
maybe it was organic or spontaneous?

I'm against ILLEGAL immigration. period.
doesn't matter which country or continent.
Not complaining either... just would like to learn more
and see what others think.

the one interview I heard said they were coming to make better money than back home.
economics is not a reason to grant asylum.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 35
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 8:46:56 PM
:


now them ripping off the government isn't what created the tension between blue collar workers. they are able to work for 30% less and take home the same. the jobs did not go away, they were taken at a reduced rate and that is what created the tension often misread as hatred, racism or ignorance. the constant denial that it even exists just adds fuel to the fire.

They aren't the one's ripping off the government...those who employ them in that manner are. Again, those are illegal "immigrants", not "refugees". There is a distinct difference.
as I stated, "them ripping off the government isn't what created the tension", MY POINT was that those illegals taking the jobs has an impact and some view ANY immigrant as a threat. I will gladly discuss the impact of this on the employers in another thread. my comments on this thread are addressing WHY some are against the caravan and that the popular argument as to why does not match my real life experiences.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 36
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/26/2018 9:02:22 PM

Do you really think the left are too dumb to understand this?....
but, but, but trump slept with stormy!!! surely any unemployed craftsman that doesn't hate trump would lie about losing their job when they didn't want it anyways. they did all my former employees a favor by allowing them to go to college and become rocket scientists.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 37
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 5:12:29 AM
^^^^craftsmen have specialized skills, if competent are always in demand and have never been replaced by immigrants, but i get you have to have somebody to blame. Trump gets it too.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 38
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 8:31:06 AM

^^^^craftsmen have specialized skills, if competent are always in demand and have never been replaced by immigrants,
what a racist thing to say!! I know plenty of immigrants that are skilled craftsmen. i have not witnessed the top professionals but the jobs they are taking are production oriented/lots of passable work, not a lesser amount of perfect work. to claim an immigrant isn't capable of doing better is prejudice, but hey, at least your getting your slaves back and being politically correct at the same time! we will run with YOUR theory for a minute and assume they are all second rate. flood the market with these second rate workers and prices drop. the most skilled can always find work and demand more for it, even if they get double the rate, the rate has already been reduced. surely with your vast and extreme knowledge, you can understand that! but why? easier to deny it and throw a few insults at those 'beneath' you! so who is lower on your totum pole, the working class citizens or the illegal immigrants?
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 39
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 10:37:02 AM
so, I looked up John's complaint, and gosh....i just can't seem to find how non-citizens can go into his legislature (or any other) and demand that 1099 jobs exist in order to help them! 427cammer questioned the intelligence of liberals, maybe he knows?

oh, silly me! non citizens can't demand american laws and tax loopholes be made. well, gosh, then, if illegals and scabs aren't responsible, then who is? well, it only took me a bit of internet research to learn that in John's home state, a lot of contractors are using 1099 employees to underbid (since the company isn't paying the taxes). So, wait, that means....even if John waved a magic wand and got mexican immigrants out of his home state of PA, he and his friends still have to deal with companies exploiting the loophole! golly, how can a lib figure this out, its just so darn obvious, and yet others cannot?

(there's even a lawyer's website for US citizen employees forced to become independant contractors by these companies)

I guess that means liberals understand what the real problem is--instead of "playing stupid" about how a non citizen gets businesses to adopt tax loopholes. how much intelligence does it take to recognize reality? :) Of course, they warned the populace about real estate guys like Trump, hiring H1Bs for Mar-A-Lago and pulling other tricks on the casino construction site, blaming the contractors for any problems. of course, if one dismissed all this evidence during the election as "fake news", b/c it disturbed what one really wanted to believe in...well, the libs can lead a horse to water, but we can't force it to drink. we just can't save you from yourself, and that's a fact. Hey, remember when the republicans knocked over Iraq, and suddenly all these contractors (read:mercinaries) were running the war? seems like the GOP has a pattern of outsourcing all work to save a dollar, doesn't it? Its pretty obvious who is the party of Big Business and doesn't want "government interference"... and who is actually paying attention to what that party is doing to america.

and as for terrorist immigrants...yeah, they'll really blend in with middle america and have no prob renting a van to put a fertilizer bomb in. Must be why terrorist organizations take so much time to convert actual citizens online.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 40
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 10:49:16 AM
What i post3d to john went right over his head. Skilled and competent craftsmen are in big demand in our country and need not worry about immigrants taking their jobs. But immigrants are hard workers and construction bosses know they are a better bet than many druken, unreliable american construction workers. Sad but true.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 41
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 1:25:50 PM

What i post3d to john went right over his head. Skilled and competent craftsmen are in big demand in our country and need not worry about immigrants taking their jobs. But immigrants are hard workers and construction bosses know they are a better bet than many druken, unreliable american construction workers. Sad but true.
are you a skilled and competent craftsman? I got your point but doesn't match what I see in real life. my point all along is many are against immigration because it effects their jobs. you deny that it does, you argue any other point you can find but you still missed my point! even if I was bored and made it all up just to upset the left, their are still many who believe it and that is why MANY ARE AGAINST IMMIGRATION FOR FEAR OF LOSING THEIR JOB!! your trying to win an argument, I am trying to tell you how many in my area are effected, you don't have to convince me your right, just the millions that support trump. or just sweep them under the rug and hope they go away.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 42
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 1:37:51 PM

so, I looked up John's complaint
I guess that makes my life experiences b.s.? 5 minutes versus 35 years as a mason contractor and you know more than I do? can you find another website to just tell you we just hate latinos and we are all racist? 5 more minutes surfing the web and you can prove to the world how evil we are! I could counter your arguments but why? I didn't post to argue but rather discuss how immigration has effected many (real or not) I see I am wasting my time.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 43
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 2:12:34 PM
BaldwinMotionPhaseIII :

427cammer questioned the intelligence of liberals, maybe he knows?

I asked John whether he believed liberals were stupid.... speaking for myself I said they were just playing stupid. The concept that introducing a large number of workers (who are willing to take less money) into a job market will lower wages is not complicated at all... this could be explained to a toddler. I was just giving unasked for advice to a guy who was being honest about trying to get his ideas across to a bunch of deceitful a**holes who would perform linguistic acrobatics all in order to avoid saying they understand his point.

There are intelligent liberals and there are honest liberals in the world, but a smart, honest liberal would never attempt to make the arguments you're making.

golly, how can a lib figure this out, its just so darn obvious, and yet others cannot?

So employers are taking advantage of an excess of workers in the market... if there was fewer workers (especially those willing to take lower wages) the employer would be unable to do this... according to John many tradesman have already left the industry to get factory jobs.

.... but keep telling yourself you're winning this argument.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 44
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/27/2018 3:07:27 PM

I was just giving unasked for advice to a guy who was being honest about trying to get his ideas across to a bunch of deceitful a**holes who would perform linguistic acrobatics all in order to avoid saying they understand his point.
couldn't of said it better! I could post that it was raining here and somehow they would prove me wrong, insult me, call me a liar and eventually turn it political left/right! this is a classic example as to why the left and right are so divided! rather than address the concerns, twist it and create hatred between the sides. try replacing arrogance with character and integrity!
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 45
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/28/2018 4:04:23 AM
John and Cammer

"I was just giving unasked for advice to a guy who was being honest about trying to get his ideas across to a bunch of deceitful a**holes who would perform linguistic acrobatics all in order to avoid saying they understand his point.


couldn't of said it better! I could post that it was raining here and somehow they would prove me wrong, insult me, call me a liar and eventually turn it political left/right! this is a classic example as to why the left and right are so divided! rather than address the concerns, twist it and create hatred between the sides. try replacing arrogance with character and integrity!"


Spot on. The ones sneering and trying hard to conceal their hatred of working folk show a complete ignorance of working class life.

One poster reads like he is gto. If i am correct did you not once say your ma and dad set a business up and you just inherited said business?

They don't give a toss if our wages go down. All they want is work done cheap so they can enjoy even MORE leisure time.

Do your entitled dafties praise migrant labour because they 'work long hours' 'hardly ever stop' etc?

And it helps that the contractor they employ has cheap labour.

Many many citizens have suffered over the years to make sure working class folk can get a break to have something to e a t. A decent finishing time so they can see their families.

Fvck me we are in the year 2018 and yet those money grabbing arseholes still want near slave labour.

Do you ever work for some would be snob who is prepared to pay cash rather than add income tax onto the bill?

I get it here in Edinburgh all the time. The job is worth, to me, £400 wages. If they pay by cheque add 20% for tax.

Oh we will pay the £400.

Trump and brexit were our revenge on them. The howls of 'pain' were a joy to behold. The elitist dafties hurt.

Lol oh the schadenfreude
 Clytemnestra
Joined: 6/6/2018
Msg: 46
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/28/2018 6:38:33 AM
msg#45:
One poster reads like he is gto. If i am correct did you not once say your ma and dad set a business up and you just inherited said business?


'If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.'
 Rumours
Joined: 6/4/2018
Msg: 47
migrant caravan
Posted: 10/28/2018 9:43:24 AM
Well...I won't speak for any "elitist dafties".....but I will speak a little of being from a landed immigrant into Canada.
My father and his parents came from Russia by ship in the early 1920's....landed on the farthest eastern coast of this country. His name was changed with a stamp because it was too hard to pronounce.
Another stamp made him a Canadian citizen.
Of course, my grandfather was looking for a better life for his family and was willing to work long and hard to prove himself. I'm sure even then...they were discriminated against. He would do anything to make money.

By the luck of the draw...The government was selling property cheap or giving it away,(got to get the book out) to encourage settlement on the prairies.
The land is hard to work with extreme weather conditions. Believe it or not....my cousin still owns that property.
I know...Times are changing. We are more crowded and selfish. But this is why I can empathise with the march.
Simple as that....No nefarious plan against union workers or Trump.

Yes....they need to come to your country/my country legal....just like my ancestors did and many more here.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 48
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/28/2018 12:52:10 PM
Vlad, like I have said before I have no idea what is going on with brexit but I do know what is going on with Donald Trump and although it is great for the working class to have a hero, Trump is not their hero in reality, Trump is instead the hero of the elites. There is nothing Trump is done that is increasing jobs in the US, instead his deficit spending and his tax cuts are killing the economy along with his hair-brained trade Wars. My contempt for Trump goes far beyond his being simply a vile, despicable , cruel individual. It goes to the fact he's causing so much harm to the country and yes to the working class and fly over America and they don't even get it yet.

Don't know if you were aware yet but now the Republican leadership is talking about cutting Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security. Guess how much the working class has to live on when they retire ... virtually nothing which means they rely very much on Social Security. But the Republican leadership wants to cut Social Security due to the large deficits caused primarily by runaway Republican spending and tax cuts. We who are aware of going on see exactly what is happening which is why we ignore what Trump says and instead look at what he does. Many on the right simply look at what Trump says and buy into it as if it is the gospel.
 savona58
Joined: 9/23/2017
Msg: 49
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/28/2018 1:36:53 PM
You'll need those workers since the Mexican crossings are now in the negative numbers.
 congupnaroad
Joined: 7/22/2015
Msg: 50
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/28/2018 3:04:14 PM

Don't know if you were aware yet but now the Republican leadership is talking about cutting Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security. Guess how much the working class has to live on when they retire ... virtually nothing which means they rely very much on Social Security. But the Republican leadership wants to cut Social Security due to the large deficits caused primarily by runaway Republican spending and tax cuts. We who are aware of going on see exactly what is happening which is why we ignore what Trump says and instead look at what he does. Many on the right simply look at what Trump says and buy into it as if it is the gospel


Of course the loony left made up that shyte about the Republicans cutting Medicare, Medicaid ad Social Security in the US. What they actually said was is that they need to have a bipartisan discussion with the loony left about the future funding of the program's you falsely accused the Republicans of cutting because the Baby Boomers are fast approaching retirement and they need to work out how to continue to fund those program's in the future.

But of course the loony left propagated some fake news, which really proves they don't give a shyte about their own citizens.
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