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 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 51
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migrant caravanPage 3 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
^^^^how can you all be so right about israel and so wrong about everything else. You live in zany land with the others from the right who seem to have no awareness about what is actually going on. Only when you get hit by a bat over your head will you finally get it. (calling ben artflick).

"""You'll need those workers since the Mexican crossings are now in the negative numbers."""

Exactly...they don't see that either.
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 52
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Posted: 10/28/2018 7:03:31 PM
^ You got that right. We need them. And I will be honest enough to admit that I like my lawn care and house cleaning at a fraction of the price than spoiled citizens would charge me. They do do a much better job, also. Truth.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 53
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Posted: 10/29/2018 1:46:09 AM
Platy
Congratulations on being on the board for a while mate........


"Vlad, like I have said before I have no idea what is going on with brexit but I do know what is going on with Donald Trump and although it is great for the working class to have a hero, Trump is not their hero in reality, Trump is instead the hero of the elites."



See that's not what we are getting told over here. We are being told by our lying press that the sherman economy is on the up.

Look at the choice the working class had in the presidential election. Boorish narcissist donald trump or the hideous clinton. If I'd voted in that election i would have voted trump.

The day after he won some geezer from i think newsweek magazine was on telly over here. He said how they had to pulp the edition that had americas first woman president. They were so confident in their arrogance.

Unfortunately what happens in your nation affects mine eventually. And brexit will affect yours. Trump hate the eu gulag. And that means millions of citizens in europe loved donald trump winning the two horse race.

The poster million reasons wrote this below.............


"^ You got that right. We need them. And I will be honest enough to admit that I like my lawn care and house cleaning at a fraction of the price than spoiled citizens would charge me. They do do a much better job, also. Truth."


Now they are either at the wind up. Or else they do not give a toss that someone is being exploited for their financial gain.

Neo liberalism has had it's day. Identity politics has pushed it's way forward. But that will also get slaughtered when working class folk have had enough.

It's not a race thing. It is a class thing. The exploited south american who works all day for a greedy boss and an even greedier customer hurts ALL the working class.

Cheap exploited migrant labour still means they earn more than the nation they have left. But the workers already in place do not see their bills go down as their wages go down.

Are you in agreement with the poster million reasons? Do you use cheap exploited labour?

We have many many stories coming out over here about the modern slave trade. Where gang masters have virtual slaves working for a pittance. They live 15/20 to a house.

Surely you cannot say that is a good thing? We only want to earn a decent wage for our families. But there are many many like million reasons who posted.

I done a 4 year apprenticeship to learn my trade. Now folk can do a six week course and have the same qualification as me.

Until the working class get someone who will represent them and give them a voice they will head towards extremes. It's happening all over europe.

But keep kicking that dog. But mind it doesn't bite you eventually.

Ps what's all this rubbish about the apu character in the simpsons? Have yous all lost your marbles? Wonder if i should take the hump about groundsman willie? My hurt feelings and all that.

 flowersinthelake
Joined: 5/11/2018
Msg: 54
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/29/2018 5:30:53 AM

From what I've heard many of these folks are simply seeking refuge from repressive conditions in their countries of origin..


"Will trade racists for refugees."


I hope, that when this happens the proper screening process is applied to all. Equally.... And, that no children are separated from their parents. And, that all of these PEOPLE are treated fairly, and humanely.


You're a breath of fresh air. Thank you.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 55
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/29/2018 9:31:58 AM
first, yes, Vlad you're right, its moi. Its a compliment to be recognized by my intelligent posts :) But i did not inherit a business from my folks. My father's parents immigrated to New York City to escape the Nazis in the 1930s, my father became an orphan, and was taken in by his Czech aunt and her Russian husband. My father learned their languages without fear it would make him an educated elite, and helped run their chicken farm. If you've ever smelled chicken poo, you can guess why my father, who respected farmers and collected their equipment as one of his many hobbies, wanted a different career :) He did start a business, but it was ahead of its time, and it went bankrupt when i was old enough to remember the stress of being poor and wondering where the next meal is coming from and trying to build a windmill out of scrap hoping to make energy for heat in the winter.

One of the many things my father taught was, there's little time for complaining, there's too much to do in a day. If you have a problem, find its true source, fix the damn thing, and let's move on. Now, in msg 45, Vlad even talks about who is really responsible for lowering wages. of course, he lives in a country unburdened with a GOP teaching who to fear. If you live out in rural areas like i do, then you know if you don't secure your garbage cans, livestock, or any other food source, animals will come in and make a mess. If your solution is to shoot the animals, you'll keep doing it until Darwinism teaches you a lesson--you killed the dumb animals, and left the territory open for the smart ones. any farmer will tell you, don't blame the animals, they're following nature. stop leaving food unattended.

A poster here blamed Obama for firing truckers and rehiring them at lower wages. I explained that the president doesn't fire private workers, except perhaps in the case of Republican Ronald Reagan firing air traffic controllers for striking for higher pay. if you want a fair wage, it would behoove you to stop voting for the party that kills unions with "right to work" ploys, gets rid of your Medicare to pay for tax cuts to the rich (no, its not fake news, its the GOP House trying to pass it), elects conservative justices who will rule in favor of corporations when workers bring cases to court, etc. it ain't the non citizens walking the halls of legislature to do this, its the people you elected to screw you.

"See that's not what we are getting told over here. We are being told by our lying press that the sherman economy is on the up."

>>>it was doing better since Obama got us out of the recession. also helping, is that the global markets are doing better after the Greek debt and the PIGS. But our interest rates are rising, which makes it costly for business to borrow. And our income isn't rising fast enough, and the populist government in Italy may have more debt that we thought. Depending upon Christmas spending and the price of oil, we could see "corrections" in more than just the stock market.

"They were so confident in their arrogance."

>>>well, the polls said HRC would win, and she won the popular vote as they said. It was the electoral college that tripped them up. LGL mentions the GOP supporting Trump, yet he ran numerous times before and didn't get support from them. This time, three candidates read the "Romney autopsy" about how they had to cater to Latinos, and they did. They were Cruz, Jeb Bush, and Rubio. remember how they were Trump's biggest targets in the election, after HRC?

"It is a class thing. The exploited south american who works all day for a greedy boss and an even greedier customer hurts ALL the working class."

>>>see, you get it, and the americans here do not. But hey, i used to work with conservative workers, they too wanted to blame everyone but the man signing their paycheck, for their paycheck. finally when he pocketed their 401K donations, did they finally wake up. but that's the problem conservative voters have over here, they don't want to rein in the very system that's screwing them over. so they search for enemies in every place except where they obviously are. unfortunately, even if they wave a magic wand and get rid of the immigrant labor, they still have to convince the bosses to pay a higher rate. and so far, incomes have not risen even as unemployment shrinks. heck, when our economy was in recession, the migration slowed b/c there was better jobs in Latin America. so go after the bosses who won't pay and use every scam they can to get out of it.

but that attacks our very idea of Free Market.

as for what's going on with the Far Right president of Brazil, we'll see if the "deep state" stops mucking around under the Monroe Doctrine. Venezuala had a true populist president who had silly nicknames for our President Bush. but no one wants to utter the name Hugo Chavez, for some reason, when they talk about overthrowing the Establishment and the Deep State. wonder why? :)


 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 56
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Posted: 10/29/2018 10:03:52 AM
GTO


"as for what's going on with the Far Right president of Brazil, we'll see if the "deep state" stops mucking around under the Monroe Doctrine. Venezuala had a true populist president who had silly nicknames for our President Bush. but no one wants to utter the name Hugo Chavez, for some reason, when they talk about overthrowing the Establishment and the Deep State. wonder why? :)"

Hows it gaun gadgie? Hope all is boss mate.

Why do you describe the new top boy in brazil as 'far right'? What exactly makes him 'far right'? So millions of ordinary working class Brazilians are now 'far right'?

See i see that as an intolerant illiberal liberal comfort blanket. They offered nothing to brazillian voters. The party they cheered for was as corrupt as any political party in any nation.

Imagine the ungrateful working class wretches vote for someone who did not sneer and patronise them. Patting them on the head. Eyes closed as only smug dafties do.

And unfortunately the corrupt liberals never won the popular vote.

So, hillary could win the popular vote until the cows come home. It means nothing under your electoral system.
I've been reading some comments on the Anywhere But Washington site.

Would you agree that clinton concentrated more on urban city dweller votes and did not give a toss about rural america?

And i read that 6 million voters who voted for obama the first time round never voted for clinton. Why do you think that was?

Why did 6 million citizens abandon the democrats?


"Venezuala had a true populist president"

Err aye. Until he completely ruined the place.

And just out of interest why are thousands of Venezuelans on their toes?
 LGL1975
Joined: 6/7/2015
Msg: 57
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Posted: 10/29/2018 12:50:43 PM

Until the working class get someone who will represent them and give them a voice they will head towards extremes. It's happening all over europe.


This is by design.

To prevent the working class from organizing their own labor parties the ruling class created demagogues like Donald Trump. Blaming crime and other social problems that thrive under capitalist exploitation on immigrants and visible minorities.

But this scapegoating only works on the right wing reactionary types. It is more difficult to trick the left which recognizes these tactics. So the tactics were modified.

While Germany's ruling class were creating a nazi demagogue to rescue them from communism they created a think tank called the "Frankfurt School". Their task was to create an ideological antidote to Marxism. And they came up with something called "cultural marxism".

Real Marxism recognizes that political power is in the hands of those who own the means of production. And the only remedy is for the working class to unite. By organizing labor parties and unions to represent their interests.

Cultural Marxism deliberately sabotages this class consciousness. By arguing that capitalism and other forms of economic exploitation have created a culture of racism and sexism that stands in the way of social progress.

Basically the ruling class is blaming the racism it created on the white proles. And creating a new kind of demagogue to control the left with this flawed ideology of "reverse racism". Blaming the dispossession of minorities on the white underclass just as the right wing demagogues blamed white poverty on minorities.

Since the concept of "white privilege" has no appeal to working class white people it was instituted from the top down. Through the elite universities and "respectable" controlled media. Infecting the minds of progressives with a flawed understanding of capitalism.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 58
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:38:17 PM
^^^^^^ how sad that hitlers rise to power had nothing to do with his anti-communism, but instead germany's depression, its humiliation by the Versailles treaty, and the starving of millions of its people by European powers...and even there he still got less than 40% of the popular vote...another one of your conspiracy theories shot to dust.
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 59
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:50:05 PM
Msg: 53 Vlad dracul

"Cheap exploited migrant labour still means they earn more than the nation they have left. But the workers already in place do not see their bills go down as their wages go down."


Don't think we are comparing apples to apples. I am speaking about undocumented migrants in the US. It would appear that you are referencing legal migrants in Europe. Big difference.

In my case of hiring "illegal" immigrants, it could be argued that not only am I doing my civic/ humanitarian duty but I am lessening the detrimential impacts to the working class of the US. And I am getting a benefit. It is a win for everyone.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 60
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/29/2018 6:26:22 PM

it could be argued that not only am I doing my civic/ humanitarian duty but I am lessening the detrimential impacts to the working class of the US. And I am getting a benefit. It is a win for everyone.
who do think your kidding! taking a job off of billybob and giving it to hector at half the pay and your LESSONING the impact? what is humanitarian about putting some one out of work, replacing them with a slave/lower payed worker and pocketing the difference? I get how you could screw over your fellow man to pocket a buck but to expect praise for doing so, wow. and the KKK only hung the blacks to save them from a life of misery! cant tell if your serious or just trolling for a reaction, either way, you have issues!
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 61
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Posted: 10/29/2018 7:02:04 PM
^Since no job previously existed before hiring "Hector"...no job was taken from "BillyBob".

Guess that makes me not only civically minded and a humanitarian, but, also, a job creator. Thank you for highlighting that!



"what is humanitarian about putting some one out of work, replacing them with a slave/lower payed worker and pocketing the difference?"


Reality check:

The US has an upward estimate of 22 million "illegal aliens" or "undocumented migrants" (whichever your political bent prefers). But even if you don't buy that number and choose a lower estimate of 10 million...if you gave all working age a work visa or citizenship...what would be the impacts to the existing US citizen working class?


And if you don't grant a legal means for which these migrants to work, what are the impacts to them? What are their alternatives?


Your analogy is weak at best and crude at its' worst.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. The impacts to both migrants and the working class are numerous and far reaching. It will take a bipartisan approach to minimize them and optimize the potential of all.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 62
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Posted: 10/30/2018 6:31:15 AM
Million
"Don't think we are comparing apples to apples. I am speaking about undocumented migrants in the US. It would appear that you are referencing legal migrants in Europe. Big difference.

In my case of hiring "illegal" immigrants, it could be argued that not only am I doing my civic/ humanitarian duty but I am lessening the detrimential impacts to the working class of the US. And I am getting a benefit. It is a win for everyone."


We have many illegal immigrants as well. Mainland europe also has many many illegal immigrants as well.

Just using germany as an example where the stupid bint merkel invited the worlds poor.............


"BERLIN (Reuters) - When refugees started arriving in Germany in large numbers last summer, many politicians and economists feted them as a solution to a skilled labor shortage, but a survey published on Tuesday shows that only around 1 in 8 have found jobs so far."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-survey/only-13-percent-of-recent-refugees-in-germany-have-found-work-survey-idUSKBN13A22F


Thankfully german citizens are deserting the neo liberal elites in their droves. The latest being in the hesse region where the AfD and the greens got great results.

Now i do know that europe has far better worker protection than over the pond. But there can be problems as non english speaking workers get used and abused.

You are doing no one a service by hiring illegal workers. First off the worker has no rights what so ever. He is open to exploitation by gang masters............


"Exploitation and abuse of workers is widespread across the UK economy, according to a new report, which finds that 17 sectors are high-risk for mistreatment ranging from wages theft to slavery.

Construction, recycling, nail bars and car washes were among the top sectors where the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority (GLAA) said there was slavery. Agriculture, food packing, fishing, shellfish gathering, warehouse and distribution, garment manufacturing, taxi driving , retail, domestic work, and social care were also highlighted in the report."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/08/slaves-working-in-uk-construction-and-car-washes-report-finds

So who benefits from this scenario? Well the gangmasters who take a portion of the workers earnings. And if the gangmaster provides accommodation the rent gets taken from the workers wages.

The customer gets cheap labour and they do not give a toss how the worker gets exploited as long as they can line their pockets.

So if the exploitation and abuse of a person doesn't bother you then fill your boots mate.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 63
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Posted: 10/30/2018 7:00:02 AM
John
Have yous got a system in place over the pond like this below? Cscs cards need to be presented on major construction sites and most agencies require their use.

But it is a bit bizarre that THE WORKER has to pay to get the card so they can work. But there is a skills shortage over here. Why? Because no one was prepared to take on apprentices for 4 years when they could hire cheap exploited labour on the minimum wage.............


"Applying for CSCS cards

CSCS card applicants need to prove they have the training and qualifications required to carry out their job and apply for the correct card for their occupation.

The requirements can be checked by using the online cardfinder which will also confirm which type of CITB Health, safety and environment test needs to be passed."

https://www.cscs.uk.com/applying-for-cards/

And just out of interest if you can be bothered here is a mock online cscs test. Fancy trying it?...............

"Practice test for the: Red, Blue or Gold - Stone Masons CSCS Card

This mock test precisely mimics the test required for the stone masons CSCS card, which makes it your best tool for practising for the real test! The test is called Operative level Health, Safety & Environment Test. Depending on your qualifications at the time of application you can apply for Red, Blue or Gold CSCS Card. In all cases the exam that you need to pass is the same.

All questions are based on real CSCS test questions (2018 version).

The mock test consists of 12 behavioural case study questions and 38 knowledge based questions on health, safety and environmental issues. To successfully pass the mock test 47 out of 50 questions must be answered correctly within the allowed time of 45 minutes (as it is for the real test).

http://www.cscswizard.co.uk/cscs_stone_mason.php


Have you heard of Rosslyn Chapel? Have a look at some of the masonary work that was done. In particular the Apprentice Pillar............


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosslyn_Chapel
 savona58
Joined: 9/23/2017
Msg: 64
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Posted: 10/30/2018 9:37:29 AM


^ You got that right. We need them. And I will be honest enough to admit that I like my lawn care and house cleaning at a fraction of the price than spoiled citizens would charge me. They do do a much better job, also. Truth.


How sad that they work so hard and are paid less than any human deserves. **shaking my head**
 Rumours
Joined: 6/4/2018
Msg: 65
migrant caravan
Posted: 10/30/2018 9:43:46 AM
^^^Tell that to the President. He should quit hiring them for his maids....it's not like Americans don't know how to make a bed...

Oh the hypocrisy.
I hear he made sure they all have working visas. But they also signed NSA....so the threat of being sued for everything they don't have...will keep them quiet.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 66
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migrant caravan
Posted: 10/30/2018 12:13:14 PM
:



^ You got that right. We need them. And I will be honest enough to admit that I like my lawn care and house cleaning at a fraction of the price than spoiled citizens would charge me. They do do a much better job, also. Truth.


How sad that they work so hard and are paid less than any human deserves. **shaking my head**
spoiled citizen ,one that can pay some one else to do their laundry and lawn or did you mean the spoiled citizen that is guaranteed minimum wage? that 'minimum wage' worker just got priced out of the market! hiring immigrants 'at a fraction of the cost' is exploiting them! pay them what you would pay the legal citizens, then pay all the overheads and then you can claim your helping them! THIS is the very issue that effects the working class wages. not race, legal status or even supply/demand, it is the unlevel playing field where those jobs can ONLY be had without unemployment and s.s. let alone addressing the income tax. sure, flooding the market with more workers has a negative effect, yes, two sides to the immigration argument and yes, some are just plain racist but the majority of those complaining have little to do with the latter and everything to do with eliminating their jobs while exploiting modern day slaves. yes, very sad they are paid so little and unbelievable someone could brag about 'paying a fraction' and expecting praise for doing so! so who is the prejudice one in THAT scenario?
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 67
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Posted: 10/30/2018 4:57:56 PM
^Let's unpack this post, Johnfromzelie.

"that 'minimum wage' worker just got priced out of the market! hiring immigrants 'at a fraction of the cost' is exploiting them!"

Is it? Should I pay "Hector" the same wage as "BillyBob"? Even though "Hector" is getting paid in cash meaning no taxes coming out of his paycheck? Seems kinds unfair to "BillyBob".


"then pay all the overheads and then you can claim your helping them!"

What overheads would that be??? Does not make sense in this particular situation.


You understand that our unemployment is 3.7%, right? Who do you think has an easier time gaining employment in our current economy? You think it is easy being undocumented and trying to get someone to take the risk and hire you?

So you want me to fire Hector and his wife Maria? The loss of that $70 I pay them a week could be just what tips the scale and begins that downward spiral. Faced with trying to figure out how to pay the rent on the one room shanty they share with their three kids, cousin Julio, his wife Juanita and don't forget about abuela Rosa, Hector has no choice but to turn to begging, petty theft and maybe dabbling in a little drug dealing. Guess it's better than Maria's options, though. Her best days are past, but, thankfully, many customers in the sex trade are not too discerning. Upside is that Maria will make as much in just a few minutes as compared to the hours she spends cleaning my house...if you don't take into account the price of her soul.

Fire Hector and Maria? I think not. BillyBob is gonna be okay. He at least gets a shot at the American dream. If he works hard, saves some money, he could start his own lawncare business and see his dream come to fruition. Undocumented migrants have a much less liklihood of seeing theirs realized.


The system needs to be fixed. It needs to be fair to all sides. We need to demand both Democrats and Republicans come together and fix it. Human beings should not be used as political pawns!
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 68
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Posted: 10/30/2018 9:22:57 PM
vlad:

So, hillary could win the popular vote until the cows come home. It means nothing under your electoral system.
I've been reading some comments on the Anywhere But Washington site.

Would you agree that clinton concentrated more on urban city dweller votes and did not give a toss about rural america?

You are right on the money. Trump campaigned in an attempt to win the electoral college and was successful... who's to say what would have happened if he had prioritised winning the popular vote?... especially if the lying media hadn't been reporting that a Trump presidency was impossible and untold millions (from either side) stayed at home election day because the outcome was a concrete certainty?

....from all of the crying and weeping that comes from south of our border I'm finally starting to realise how self-centered and world-ignorant that some Americans really are. Do they believe that in most countries leaders are elected by popular vote?... are they completely unaware that up here in Canada, Trudeau's Liberals got in to power with 54% of the seats in Parliament even though they only got 39% of the vote?


It's not a race thing. It is a class thing. The exploited south american who works all day for a greedy boss and an even greedier customer hurts ALL the working class.

.... and when you look at someone's statements long enough it's easy to see who has no problem with exploitation:


as for displacing jobs, the uneducated ones only take the jobs an employee doesn't need to speak english for, allowing those "real americans" to get customer-service, sales, and other higher paying jobs.


Now they may take an "under the tabl" job away, but what does a legal citizen need one of those for?


BaldwinMotionPhaseIII:

the average worker has more to worry about a robot taking over their repetitive job, as efficiency is the focus of business.

I think that white collar workers should be more fearful of losing their jobs to computers than blue collars should be worried about robots.


Million_Reasons:


Reality check:

The US has an upward estimate of 22 million "illegal aliens" or "undocumented migrants" (whichever your political bent prefers). But even if you don't buy that number and choose a lower estimate of 10 million...if you gave all working age a work visa or citizenship...what would be the impacts to the existing US citizen working class?


And if you don't grant a legal means for which these migrants to work, what are the impacts to them? What are their alternatives?

...all the more reason for the US to build that big, beautiful wall.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 69
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Posted: 10/31/2018 11:29:37 AM
"Hows it gaun gadgie? Hope all is boss mate."

>>>thanks, and the same to you. I cannot complain, an old friend of mine lost her job b/c she doesn't play office politics. She grew up thinking she was going to land a husband and so didn't pursue college...now she's 61 and wondering how she's going to keep her house. The job market here--even as we approach shopping season--consists of two jobs for those without a degree. either high pressure sales, where you get sacked for not reaching quota, or warehouse jobs that require the energy of a 20 yr old...else you miss quota and get sacked. so i do get a front-row seat to the job markets, as Trump tells us unemployment is at record lows.

"Why do you describe the new top boy in brazil as 'far right'? What exactly makes him 'far right'? So millions of ordinary working class Brazilians are now 'far right'?"

>>>the press lists him as far right, for his support of prior dictatorships and tweets about women and Jews. we'll see what ends up happening, but he was elected to lower crime in the favelas and corruption in government. hopefully he can achieve both without the human rights violations of the Philapines in recent years. HRC did in fact give up on the rural vote, believing she had already lost it due to NAFTA (which Trump is returning us to). Democrats lost the working class vote, likely to cater to social issues they didn't like.

John had mentioned the unlevel playing field for workers. At one time, they had little competition from women (Rosie the Riveter was returned home) and those who put "black sounding names" on their resume have a hell of a time getting a call for an interview. So, Archie Bunker doesn't just have non citizens to compete against, anymore. Also, the working class ran from Carter to Reagan, and the flag waving didn't stop after that. And of course there's a focus on who uses a bathroom (on a side note, you asked about Apu on the Simpsons. I can't stand any of those low brow cartoons, and i used to watch Spike and Mike's animation festival whenever it came to town. they skewer the popular culture, except THEY are a big part of what they are satirizing. One cannot have kids saying naughty things, animated poop, and projectile vomiting, then sneer at other cultural icons.)

Vlad, you would have liked some of what Hugo Chavez had to say--he was very anti neoliberal, too. Of course, america has interfered in Latin america since the coup in 54 in Guatamala, and the IMf and world bank loans, and then we overthrew another populist, Juan Peron, for that butcher, Pinochet. Venezuala is where we get our oil from, so we've sponsored coups against Chevez with the help of conservatives there. You may want to look up "liberation theology", and see what we've done to keep them down.

now we have a bunch of immigrants coming not to invade, but to ask permission to enter, and Faux News is portraying it like barbarian hordes. any time the media of the government tells you to fear the outsiders, you know they're distracting you from what goes on within. We're told these people have diseases, are terrorists, and yet the last three attacks america has had (mail bombs, shooting jews, and i haven't checked the news yet, maybe there's an office shooting someplace) have been done by americans--some quite open about their Trump worship. Cammer wanted to know the concern over the electoral college, and i think its been explained often--it was a proposal for slave states to get equal representation, and we no longer have a slave agrarian economy. its purpose has passed. as for white collar exmployees worrying about computers, you'll have to explain that one...has AI become as mainstream as robots in factories?
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 70
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Posted: 10/31/2018 7:17:27 PM
BaldwinMotionPhaseIII:

Cammer wanted to know the concern over the electoral college

...no I didn't, I get it, you've got a lot of angst. As I said before, there's nothing unusual about an election process where voters in different regions have more power than in other areas. I'm tired of hearing about it... get over it.

as for white collar exmployees worrying about computers, you'll have to explain that one...has AI become as mainstream as robots in factories?

Do you somehow think that most bluecollar people work in factories?.... has it occurred to you that most of the mindless repetitive jobs have already been automated?... most of the bluecollar jobs that people are still doing take muscle power as well as brain power.

An accountant or an architectural draftsman can be replaced with a computer program.... TODAY. Try finding a robot that will replace the brakes in your car or fix the leaky sink.
 Noftheborder
Joined: 10/4/2018
Msg: 71
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Posted: 10/31/2018 7:40:58 PM
^to revert to the thread topic, how does a mechanic or a plumber relate to migrant refugees taking those particular jobs?

With respect to mechanics and technology, if an old school mechanic doesn’t have the foresight to see that vehicles are computerized now and doesn’t upgrade his old school knowledge to keep up in that regard, should he/she blame the government for not providing his further education? Should a plumber likewise blame everyone else for not taking it upon himself to keep up with the newest plumbing technology as it becomes apparent it’s becoming mainstream and blame someone else when he becomes less in demand?
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 72
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Posted: 10/31/2018 8:07:14 PM

^to revert to the thread topic, how does a mechanic or a plumber relate to migrant refugees taking those particular jobs?

Baldwin had stated that bluecollar workers should be more worried about losing their job to robots than immigrants. I stated that he was wrong.

Should a plumber likewise blame everyone else for not taking it upon himself to keep up with the newest plumbing technology as it becomes apparent it’s becoming mainstream and blame someone else when he becomes less in demand?

I'm going to assume that you want to stay on topic here and that you're just making an analogy.... in reality what you really meant to say would read something like this:

"Should a plumber blame his government for not enforcing his nation's borders when illegal immigrants come in and undercut his prices and therefore he becomes less in demand?"

Yes he should.
 Noftheborder
Joined: 10/4/2018
Msg: 73
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Posted: 10/31/2018 8:48:46 PM
You assume incorrectly, as individuals such as yourself are falling all over themselves to blame refugees, as opposed to illegal immigrants and in a lot of cases themselves, for the loss of their blue collar jobs. Therefore, that’s not “really what I meant to say” but rather that which individuals who don’t understand the difference between an illegal immigrant and a refugee would like to use as an excuse for jumping on board the Trump fear train. No one’s saying illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay in any country...but first one has to understand the difference between true illegal immigrants and true refugees, instead of grouping them together. Trump would do better to send troops to the airports than to the southern border if he was at all serious about illegal immigrants, rather than attempting his usual scare tactics to boogeyman his base.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 74
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Posted: 11/1/2018 7:56:38 AM
Nof

"You assume incorrectly, as individuals such as yourself are falling all over themselves to blame refugees, as opposed to illegal immigrants and in a lot of cases themselves, for the loss of their blue collar jobs. Therefore, that’s not “really what I meant to say” but rather that which individuals who don’t understand the difference between an illegal immigrant and a refugee would like to use as an excuse for jumping on board the Trump fear train."


I'm a bit puzzled here. Who exactly is confusing refugees with illegal immigrants? And who is classed as a refugee and why?

The caravan thing I'm reading about seems to be of economic migrants. Yes they are fleeing violence as well but why is that down to our various nations?

The vast MAJORITY of migrants who headed to europe after the stupid bint merkel invited them are economic migrants. Now it would be great if every nation could look after it's citizens. But they cannot. But OUR governments have a duty to look after OUR citizens.

As for europe the law states that anyone seeking refuge and asylum should be looked after in the first safe country they land in.

So as far as i am aware austria, sweden, norway, denmark, italy, greece, spain, portugal, germany, switzerland, luxembourg, holland, belgium and france are 'safe' nations.

So why the need to cross all those nations to get to the uk?

I've stated many times that yous lot over the pond should look at events happening in other parts of the world. Europe is lurching towards populist/nationalism.

And citizens are voting that way even though 90% of the lying press either do not report or report negatively about populist/nationalist political parties.

Calling citizens istismophobes has backfired big time. No one bothers about being branded istismophobes by comfortably off dafties who hate their fellow citizens who are struggling.

And populist/nationalists see moscow as a better ally than washington. And they see trump as the perfect antidote to neo liberalism.

Yous intolerant illiberal liberals and your neo liberal global capitalism have had your chance and blow it.

It's too late to start bothering about us now.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 75
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Posted: 11/1/2018 8:18:36 AM
My proverbial God. The lack of a basic understanding of simple economics has truly warped the more xenophobic among us. When we fail to truly penalize the corporate interests that lure desperate people from abroad those people will keep coming as they have no other choice but the brutal life in their oppressive country of origin.

Illegals pay social security and other taxes...they will never collect on as long as we deny them an actually affordable path to citizenship.

The Coal Industry is an example of the deceit the "right" uses to divide Americans and get millions of us to vote against our own interests: Regulations have next to nothing to do with the disappearance of coal jobs; it is almost all due to two things: Automation and the market force of far cheaper Natural Gas.

The Caravan is demonized by the right for they know if they can get the ignorant and gullible to hate immigrants there is less hate that can be directed back at the deceitful dividers from the right.

Please, take pause when someone in leadership encourages you to hate anyone let alone the most desperate among us.
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