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 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 76
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migrant caravanPage 4 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
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"My proverbial God. The lack of a basic understanding of simple economics has truly warped the more xenophobic among us."

Well it COULD be pointed out that the lack of simple economics drives a certain mindset to ignore that their fellow citizens are struggling to get enough wages to put food on the table. It's far easier to call them istismophobes eh?............


"When we fail to truly penalize the corporate interests that lure desperate people from abroad those people will keep coming as they have no other choice but the brutal life in their oppressive country of origin."

But your last president obama and failed presidential candidate clinton both embraced neo liberalism. Where corporates could move work anywhere that they could get cheap exploited labour.........


"Bill Clinton and Barack Obama helped shift power away from the people towards corporations. It was this that created an opening for Donald Trump

Democrats have occupied the White House for 16 of the last 24 years, and for four of those years had control of both houses of Congress.

But in that time they failed to reverse the decline in working-class wages and economic security. Both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama ardently pushed for free trade agreements without providing millions of blue-collar workers who thereby lost their jobs means of getting new ones that paid at least as well.

They stood by as corporations hammered trade unions, the backbone of the white working class – failing to reform labor laws to impose meaningful penalties on companies that violate them, or help workers form unions with simple up-or-down votes."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/democrats-working-class-americans-us-election



"Illegals pay social security and other taxes...they will never collect on as long as we deny them an actually affordable path to citizenship."


Not over here they don't. They get paid cash in hand. Or are there no 'unscrupulous' employers who pay a pittance? Although one poster already said they like cheap exploited illegal immigrants.........



"Exploitation of migrant workers by unscrupulous UK employers is on the increase, the government’s anti-slavery commissioner has reported.

While the influx of workers is putting pressure on services, thousands of low-paid EU migrants face exploitation

Such “modern-day slavery” is being driven by rising demand for cheap produce and the lure of the British economy to those unable to find jobs in their home countries, says Kevin Hyland, a former Scotland Yard detective.

Mr Hyland describes as “extremely shocking” the instances of exploitation he has witnessed in sectors such as agriculture, fisheries, hospitality and construction right across the country.

“We’re having to get society engaged to understand this — that this is happening in the 21st century of the United Kingdom,” he told the Financial Times.

An equally acute problem, which attracts less attention, is the employment abuse of EU nationals — particularly those from eastern Europe — who are fully entitled to work in Britain.

Research commissioned by the Latvian embassy in London has shown that some unscrupulous employers are paying less than the minimum wage, charging exorbitant rents and sometimes even withholding migrants’ passports."

https://www.ft.com/content/43daccd0-410d-11e5-9abe-5b335da3a90e


"The Caravan is demonized by the right for they know if they can get the ignorant and gullible to hate immigrants there is less hate that can be directed back at the deceitful dividers from the right.

Please, take pause when someone in leadership encourages you to hate anyone let alone the most desperate among us."


That part of your post is brilliant. Poor american workers are demonised because they voted the 'wrong' way. They are 'ignorant' and 'gullible'? A bit like those who know nothing about their fellow struggling workers perchance?

As for 'leaderships' hating would that be like the hatred spread by clinton? Calling folk deplorables?


I'm amazed sometimes about posters on here who seem to know nothing about the struggles of millions of their fellow citizens.

Why does this (economic) migrant caravan bring out the social justice warriors sense of outrage when unemployed or struggling citizens who are living in dangerous shitehole areas of american just get contempt?

Maybe if a bit more empathy had been shown to workers struggling to survive rather than calling them deplorables then president the donald may not have become president.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 77
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Posted: 11/1/2018 10:00:10 AM
Vlad...if you look it up..the US economy actually does better under Democrats....a rising tide lifts all boats. Bush killed the economy...and it has been struggling every since....Trump has made things worse.
 Noftheborder
Joined: 10/4/2018
Msg: 78
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migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 10:18:01 AM
It's a real mixed bag, isn't it, and not as simplistic as blaming the "others"? Vlad you sound very pro-union. While unions do have their place and benefit to the worker, they also have the ability to increase pricing to the point that the employer (yes, greedy corporations wanting to keep increasing their bottom lines for their shareholders), it also leads very often ultimately to layoffs, or union busting, and then either outsourcing jobs to other countries and/or hiring those immigrant workers who are willing to be "slave labourers". This goes to your comment about exploitation. Unionized wages go up while the non-unionized remain flat with the result that it helps inflation to increase.

Promising to get workers their jobs back at decent wages and then providing tax breaks to those very corporations may allow them to retain their workers and/or hire more, but as is seen in the States, it has done nothing to increase the wages except in some instances a one time bonus that is quickly eaten up by increasing cost of living rates created by tariffs, high cost of medical care, etc. It would have made more sense to have cut taxes for the "blue collar worker", thereby allowing them to spend more of their paycheques so they wouldn't be struggling, keep the corporate taxes the same, close their loopholes, fine them for hiring under the table illegal immigrants, and then help fund the State level infrastructure problems, which would create more jobs for blue/white collar workers.

As for "voting the wrong way", is it right to vote an incompetent individual into power simply to "shake up the system" when the shake up provides extremely little that is beneficial and further enflames divisiveness? People don't have to be ignorant on the whole to be politically ignorant.

As for the deplorables comment, it's a nice twist that it's being defined as demonizing poor fellow struggling workers when the obvious intent for the word was aimed at those who are white nationalists, xenophobes, racists, bigots, and any other thought processes that mimic and are emboldened by the likes of Trump-like politicos. If they happen to be poor and hold those thought processes it has nothing to do with their state of wealth...Trump isn't poor and is the prime example of being a deplorable who incites the belief by those type of individuals that it's normal to be deplorable.
 Rumours
Joined: 6/4/2018
Msg: 79
migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 10:19:14 AM

But your last president obama and failed presidential candidate clinton both embraced neo liberalism. Where corporates could move work anywhere that they could get cheap exploited labour.

Yes...Trump and his family have several factories in China and other countries....for that cheap labour.
Funny...How you decide to ignore the facts...about Trump.

He is one of those "elitist" millionaires you despise so much. He could give two hoots about the working class.
Perhaps.... you didn't hear how he didn't pay "taxes" to his country/city for years because of a loophole.
Perhaps...you didn't know he hires illegals to work for him.
Perhaps...you didn't know or hear he bankrupted quite a few American blue collar workers by not paying them....for jobs done.
Perhaps you didn't know he was a Democrat a few years back...not like he's loyal to any party.
Perhaps...You heard he took on redoing the skating rink in New York for the city.
He hired workers for no pay and promised them credits/exposure....didn't happen...he took all the accolades.

Perhaps you didn't know he started a university and took peoples hard earned money....only to fold up and they got no education.
Perhaps you didn't know...that he is notorious for not paying people and has many civil suits against him.
Perhaps you didn't know his pockets are getting filled off of the American people.
Perhaps you didn't know his tax cuts profited the rich most.
Perhaps you didn't know...this nut made phoney magazine covers up of himself.

He's a hypocrite and a lying thief... that will say and do anything to get votes...Oh Gee...like every other politician before him....fancy that. In my eyes....far worse.
He's found his schtick....that works. He is no hero of the people...trust me.
A despicable man.

So....rattle on about politics and neoilliberal liberals and this and that but do not try to put this man on any pedestal.
As I have said before...He will leave the country in a mess and if any long term good comes from his administration....it will be purely by accident....the pendulum will swing back to honesty and common sense. It will take years to get the country back on track after this guy....again.
JMO and ugh!!
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 80
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Posted: 11/1/2018 10:40:39 AM
^ ^^^^^^^

Perhaps I'm not as ignorant as you think? Perhaps you are blinded by your Trump Derangement Syndrome? And I'll pose the same question to you. What had clinton to offer struggling blue collar workers and their families if they voted for her?

Trump done what i wanted him to do. He upset the political elite. Clinton was just as tainted.

And ps. My posts are not about donald trump. I am trying to get a hint of WHY middle america abandoned the democrats? Why did mid western states who had voted for obama then deciede to vote trump?

And yes all your points you put over about donald trump were widely reported over here.

Nof

"Vlad you sound very pro-union. While unions do have their place and benefit to the worker, they also have the ability to increase pricing to the point that the employer (yes, greedy corporations wanting to keep increasing their bottom lines for their shareholders), it also leads very often ultimately to layoffs, or union busting, and then either outsourcing jobs to other countries and/or hiring those immigrant workers who are willing to be "slave labourers". This goes to your comment about exploitation. Unionized wages go up while the non-unionized remain flat with the result that it helps inflation to increase."


If i am going to be working for someone on a building site i rejoin the union. It used to be UCATT but they were swallowed up by UNITE.

There is also the 'pays minimum wage' jobs. The reason these jobs keep reappearing is because they want a SKILLED worker but they do not want to pay a decent wage.

We have a thing over here called The Working Rules Agreement. This is where the union and the bosses association sit down and agree rates of pay, holidays and health and safety etc.

But now it is agencies who rule the roost. It is not unknown to see a job pay £14 per hour. Then comes the deductions and you walk out with £8/9 clear.............



"As for "voting the wrong way", is it right to vote an incompetent individual into power simply to "shake up the system" when the shake up provides extremely little that is beneficial and further enflames divisiveness? People don't have to be ignorant on the whole to be politically ignorant."


Yet around 6 million voters who cast their vote for obama changed their vote to trump. What benefit would they have got if they voted for clinton? And I'm sorry but clinton fanned the flames by disregarding mid west american workers fears............



"As for the deplorables comment, it's a nice twist that it's being defined as demonizing poor fellow struggling workers when the obvious intent for the word was aimed at those who are white nationalists, xenophobes, racists, bigots, and any other thought processes that mimic and are emboldened by the likes of Trump-like politicos"


Clinton knew what she was saying. She eptomised everything that was wrong in politics. She was so driven by identity politics she ignored millions of folk.

She was arrogant and entitled. I've read a few articles regarding her losing in the president race. Maybe your democrat party should start listening to ALL working poor folk rather than ignoring millions of voters because they are considered as 'deplorable'

Vvvvv
"As for Hillary...I wouldn't have voted for her either."

So if you were not prepared to vote then you cannot complain when the result doesnt go they way you want it to go.
 Rumours
Joined: 6/4/2018
Msg: 81
migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 10:57:27 AM

Perhaps I'm not as ignorant as you think? Perhaps you are blinded by your Trump Derangement Syndrome? And I'll pose the same question to you. What had clinton to offer struggling blue collar workers and their families if they voted for her?

Oh yes...the derangement thing....lol.
I didn't like the man long before he threw his hat in the ring.

As for Hillary...I wouldn't have voted for her either.

I would have been 1 of the millions that didn't vote...wasn't it 40% of the country?
I am a Canadian...You didn't vote in their election either.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 82
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Posted: 11/1/2018 11:06:45 AM
"the average worker has more to worry about a robot taking over their repetitive job, as efficiency is the focus of business.
I think that white collar workers should be more fearful of losing their jobs to computers than blue collars should be worried about robots.
Do you somehow think that most bluecollar people work in factories?.... has it occurred to you that most of the mindless repetitive jobs have already been automated?... most of the bluecollar jobs that people are still doing take muscle power as well as brain power.
An accountant or an architectural draftsman can be replaced with a computer program.... TODAY. Try finding a robot that will replace the brakes in your car or fix the leaky sink."

>>>originally, i was talking about the average worker doing a mindless repetitive job, apparently I should repeated myself to make it clear who i was talking about. I just don't imagine immigants rolling Snap On tool drawers across the Mexican desert so they can replace brakes at Mercedes Benz in Houston--Billybob may still have nothing to worry about :) It is funny accountants were referenced, my father used to do his taxes on TurboTax b/c he loves computers, then hand that printout to our friend who is an accountant and did our taxes...who threw out all the work my father did, used his own program, and got a better result :) It is a subject of debate, an accountant program is only as good as the person putting in the data, or to borrow an old term, GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out. If you google the subject, you'll read all the articles that accountants who specialise, have nothing to worry about.

As I think northie pointed out, cars are more reliable than they used to be. Last week my tin can 1999 Escort lit up its engine light, i scanned for the code, typed it into the internet, found a youtube vid telling me how to clean the sensor rather than replace it, and voila. Purplerider has mentioned how many repairs he does on his own. That said, when my Sears fridge acted up before the company declared bankrupcy, it took two weeks before a repair dude could come out, 2 days for the replacement part to come out, and another two weeks before same dude could show up and install it. So i think people in skilled jobs--generally speaking--have less to worry about imigrants hordes and more about the penny pincher signing their paycheck. But we can all agree to disagree on blaming our boss for screwing us. since our grandfathers' time, factory workers told us to fear the Italians bringing anarchy and the Black Hand. Then it was the Irish escaping the potato famine. And oh goodness, the papal Catholics in our WASP land. the Chinese coolies who only sat around smoking opium. the slurs remain the same, but the nationality changes.

to answer some of vlad's questionsin post 76: corporations have moved to cheaper labor for a long time. here, they moved from the northern part of our nation, where the cost of living is higher, to the southern part, where the COL is cheaper. when that doesn't work, cities offer tax breaks to get companies to move, and the burden of local taxes settles on the middle class. Ironically, part of bill clinton's effort to bring peace to Ireland, involved getting tax credits for companies that moved there to employ locals. America has changed from agrarian economy to an industrial one to now a technical one. we're evolving, and its what happens. Trump has tried to put the brakes on it by trying to bring back coal, which cannot win against cheaper natural gas, and with tariffs that are hurting farmers to save a few thousand steel jobs.

any study of NAFTA admits that were jobs were lost, new ones were formed. Any state has cities that once boomed, and now are bust. its a sad fact of life, things evolve. what really should be done to workers wagers is...rein in inflation. the dollar ain't worth what it was worth before Nixon took us off the gold standard to pay for Vietnam. yet here we are, Trump raising the deficit as interest rates climb, to give the rich a freebee. The dollar is doing well now only in comparison to other economies (China, we're looking at you) still climbing out of debt. we'll see how long that lasts. american business could afford to hire people for jobs your cellphone does today, and still make profits when the dollar was at its strongest and global competition was rebuilding from WW2. now the profits are in accounting tricks that even a computer won't do :)
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 83
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Posted: 11/1/2018 12:22:01 PM
Rumours
I'm actually Scottish. But both obama and clinton threatened the uk about trade if we voted brexit. Trump said it was up to the citizens how they voted.

Obama and clinton added many votes to brexit........

GTO
"any study of NAFTA admits that were jobs were lost, new ones were formed. Any state has cities that once boomed, and now are bust. its a sad fact of life,"

That is true. But WHAT is the solution to creating jobs? Ttip would have been a disaster for workers in the uk and mainland europe.

I had a quick look online as i scranned my tea (a lovely kofte kebab from the supperbowl chippy up in gilmerton).

So i find these wee snippets about nafta interesting. Because it does not seem to have been of benefit at all.......


"NAFTA created thousands of good American jobs—just not for Trump’s Rust Belt supporters"

https://qz.com/914363/nafta-created-thousands-of-good-american-jobs-just-not-for-trumps-rust-belt-supporters/

So mid western america and the rust belt where many many blue collar workers reside never go much benefit did they?

Oops.............


"NAFTA's implementation has coincided with a 30% drop in manufacturing employment, from 17.7 million jobs at the end of 1993 to 12.3 million at the end of 2016.

Prior to NAFTA, the trade balance in goods between the two countries was modestly in favor of the U.S. Today Mexico sells close to $60 billion more to the U.S. than it buys from its northern neighbor."

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/08/north-american-free-trade-agreement.asp#ixzz5Vd7lS8pF


So mexico seems to be doing alright. But again i cannot see how the american working class benefited. Big business did though. You know the big businesses that clinton and the democrats cuddled up to.............

But your president obama and hillary the failure did not just ignore american workers they also caused havoc to mexican farmers...........


"Why, then, is NAFTA so severely criticized? Its success comes at a cost. One of the problems with NAFTA is that it's reduced U.S. jobs. A second disadvantage is that it has exploited Mexico's farmers and its environment."
https://www.thebalance.com/facts-about-nafta-statistics-and-accomplishments-3306280

Still why would obama and clinton bother about mexican farmers when wall street was making bundles of cash?

And why were those pesky mexicans who were getting shafted complaining? Surely they could retrain in IT.......


"Additionally, liberalization of trade as a result of the Act contributed to the loss of "nearly two million" agricultural jobs as a result of competition from the highly subsidized U.S. agricultural industry.[4] Overall, unemployment in Mexico rose following the passage of NAFTA, largely due to the increased competition from United States agriculture."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_NAFTA_on_Mexico

Maybe the 2 million unemployed mexicans could head to america. Get retrained etc etc.

And of course the canadian and mexican tax payers not only get put out of work their governments will pay out plenty of tax payers money to american multi nationals. Who can then line clintons pockets.........


"Canada is the most-sued country under the North American Free Trade Agreement and a majority of the disputes involve investors challenging the country’s environmental laws, according to a new study.

Canada has lost or settled six claims paying a total of $170 million in damages, while Mexico has lost five cases and paid out $204 million. The U.S.,meanwhile, has won 11 cases and has never lost a NAFTA investor-state case.

There are currently eight cases against the Canadian government asking for a total of $6 billion in damages. All of them were brought by U.S. companies."

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/01/14/canada-sued-investor-state-dispute-ccpa_n_6471460.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=L4dLkOvlR3CHsclTJa22JA

"But we can all agree to disagree on blaming our boss for screwing us. since our grandfathers' time, factory workers told us to fear the Italians bringing anarchy and the Black Hand. Then it was the Irish escaping the potato famine. And oh goodness, the papal Catholics in our WASP land. the Chinese coolies who only sat around smoking opium. the slurs remain the same, but the nationality changes."

And now it is poor working class white folks who get the abuse. Still those are the folks it is ok to denigrate and hate eh?

They will vote the wrong way eh?
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 84
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migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 1:56:21 PM

John
Have yous got a system in place over the pond like this below? Cscs cards need to be presented on major construction sites and most agencies require their use.

But it is a bit bizarre that THE WORKER has to pay to get the card so they can work. But there is a skills shortage over here. Why? Because no one was prepared to take on apprentices for 4 years when they could hire cheap exploited labour on the minimum wage.............

we do not have a mandated system other than on government projects. we have unions that sign agreements/contracts to set wages but unless the owner or contractor signs, he is free to hire at any wage. the government mandated rate 'prevailing wage' often matches the union rate and cost of benefits but have been on jobs where their regular pay was as much as double the required minimum and those where I paid them TRIPLE what a non gov job required. pro's and con's to both union and open shop. I have been employed by both and have hired both. open shop is controlled by supply and demand. union is set in stone. to give you an example, I took the company from open shop to union 20 years ago. at the time, masons were paid $16.00-$25.00 depending on their value to me. when I went union, wages were $22.00 so I dropped the hacks, gave a select few raises and obviously kept the top men. today, 20 years later, open shop is $12.00-$17.00 with a very select few commanding $20.00. that is 1099/ employee responsible for taxes, unemployment and BOTH halves of social security. forget any health, pension or other beni's. his comparable wage after paying would be ~$8.50-$11.00. fast food places pay that!
 2Irish123
Joined: 4/10/2018
Msg: 85
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Posted: 11/1/2018 4:15:15 PM
^^^I'm sure it's due to illegal immigration^^^ Because it couldn't be due to those who have abandoned union shops for open shops. Scabs come in all color :/
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 86
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migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 4:31:22 PM
^^^not sure if that statement is pro union or pro immigration.
 Rumours
Joined: 6/4/2018
Msg: 87
migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 5:21:11 PM
<----- Good news...the caravan has turned back.
All that's left is a gift for Trump at the border...



In order to maintain the highest quality forums you are restricted to having no more then 2 of the last 10 posts on a thread.
Since 2 of the last 10 posts are yours you can not post to this thread.
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 88
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migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 5:32:04 PM
Msg:76

VladDracul:

"Not over here they don't. They get paid cash in hand. Or are there no 'unscrupulous' employers who pay a pittance? Although one poster already said they like cheap exploited illegal immigrants........."


I resent and contest this misrepresentation and flat out character assasination! Very rude! You are as guilty as anyone of prejudgements based on personal biases without knowing all the facts. I demand an apology!

I'll wait.
 Noftheborder
Joined: 10/4/2018
Msg: 89
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migrant caravan
Posted: 11/1/2018 6:50:59 PM
Lol Rumours... a “Trojan” horse ... they didn’t turn back but is how they’re planning on sneaking in? A gigantic piñata gift stuffed with cheeseburgers, Kentucky Fried Chicken, taco bowls and diet Cokes. When trump rushes in for the goodies, that’s when they make their move right under his nose.
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 90
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Posted: 11/1/2018 7:02:06 PM
^Don't think that is going to distract the 15,000 US military troops thay will be waiting for them.
 Noftheborder
Joined: 10/4/2018
Msg: 91
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Posted: 11/1/2018 7:39:12 PM
^ Guess we’ll have to see if that even transpires post mid-terms. I’m amazed he’s not ramping his base up that he’s going to have Mexico pay for the movement of troops. Speaking of troops, wonder if this will work against him being that they’ll be pulled away from their families around Xmas by a political election ploy.

V yes, but they do vote and they may not take kindly to be used to ramp up fear of some kind of imminent danger. Tuesday’s results will very interesting - too difficult to call at this point, that’s for sure. Either way, unfortunately the world’s still gonna be stuck with the orange Leo Getz for two more years. Oh joy.
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 92
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Posted: 11/1/2018 7:51:26 PM
^Deployment is already ocurring. Tent cities are being built by the Army Corps of Engineers as of this posting.

Military families are well versed in their loved ones being deployed during the holidays. Or anytime for that matter so no "working against" them.

What I have recently experienced, the rank and file of the US military love Trump.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 93
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Posted: 11/1/2018 11:58:43 PM
BaldwinMotionPhaseIII:

>>>originally, i was talking about the average worker doing a mindless repetitive job, apparently I should repeated myself to make it clear who i was talking about. I just don't imagine immigants rolling Snap On tool drawers across the Mexican desert so they can replace brakes at Mercedes Benz in Houston--Billybob may still have nothing to worry about :)

Okay so you don't think illegal immigrants can be mechanics or plumbers. So I guess the stereotypical jobs for these brown people are what?... housekeepers?.. nannies?... house painters?... gardeners? (robots won't be taking over any of these jobs in my lifetime)

^^^^ ...a lot of these jobs could have been filled by US citizens just getting out of school.... now instead, where are these young people going to go?... they will apply to be apprentices and helpers to plumbers and welders and mechanics and carpenters.... but because there is now an abundance of people applying for these positions, they will be paid less than otherwise.

I realise that my posts are always peppered with question marks, but there is one question that I'd really like to hear an answer to:

Is it completely inconceivable to you that having an abundance of people willing to work cheaply at the bottom of the ladder will have a ripple effect at every rung of the ladder?... and with a more pronounced impact on the rungs closer to the bottom?

It is funny accountants were referenced, my father used to do his taxes on TurboTax b/c he loves computers, then hand that printout to our friend who is an accountant and did our taxes...who threw out all the work my father did, used his own program, and got a better result :)

In my early twenties I worked as a sawyer at a truss plant. Roger, the guy running the other saw, had been there several years before me and had dropped out of school in grade 10 or 11. Today, Roger works for the same company (which has expanded quite a bit over the years) but now he's the guy who designs the trusses.

Thirty years ago most homes around here were built pretty simply.... a 30' x 34' house would need 18 - 30' 4/12 pitch trusses... sometimes people got elaborate and wanted a vaulted ceiling in their living room in which case scissor trusses would be needed. Today house roofs are a lot more complicated, multi-pitch and multi-faceted roofs are the new normal.

Roger, with the help of a computer program, designs all theses trusses. Roger needs to know every detail about how a wooden truss is used in constructing a house... and he needs to be very sharp and be able to detect mistakes coming from the original architect and also from the computer program. Roger designs dozens of unique truss blueprints a day. Fifty years ago it would have taken dozens, if not hundreds of people to produce the detailed drawings that the truss builders use. Now there's just Roger and some engineer who I'm pretty sure doesn't design very many trusses at all... his main purpose at his job is to rubberstamp everything that Roger sends him so that their company can say they sell engineered trusses.

^^^^In my time at the truss plant they had a computer program that wouldn't be as slick as the new one which was run by Mark, who was a high school graduate. The company did not employ an engineer.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 94
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Posted: 11/2/2018 6:33:33 AM

a lot of these jobs could have been filled by US citizens just getting out of school.... now instead, where are these young people going to go?... they will apply to be apprentices and helpers to plumbers and welders and mechanics and carpenters.... but because there is now an abundance of people applying for these positions, they will be paid less than otherwise.


I believe your premise invalid....from what I understand...there is a shortage of skilled workers, like mechanics and carpenters and plumbers...besides..they generally need to be licensed....which means illegals will not be seeking those jobs. Lots of people today are suggesting rather than going to college, incurring debt and getting out of college to be an overeducated, indebted, Barista, many people should avoid college altogether and go into the trades where shortages abound and where wages are up.....have you ever paid for a plumber lately or an electrician..do you have any idea what they charge for their services? A competent tradesman with his own business can easily bring home more six figures and more. Even young electricians working for wages can easily earn $20.00 or per hour. Illegals on the other hand are washing dishes at the local dive for less than minimum wage.
 Carnival_Fishing
Joined: 10/2/2018
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Posted: 11/2/2018 8:36:20 AM
" Illegals on the other hand are washing dishes at the local dive for less than minimum wage."

This brings up the point: Why isn't the government cracking down on businesses that are employing illegals-as aggressively as that are on capturing illegals? Illegals wouldn't have a reason to sneak into another country if there is no opportunity for employment, because of not having the proper documentation. But the government seems to turn a blind eye to farms and businesses who employ illegals, and put all of the blame on the illegals as the bad guy. It would be easy enough for businesses to require any job applicant to show ID before hiring.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
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Posted: 11/2/2018 8:37:34 AM

....from what I understand
why is it so hard to beleive those actually working in the trades?
 platitude545
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Posted: 11/2/2018 8:44:31 AM

why is it so hard to beleive those actually working in the trades?


Why do I have to work in the trades to know what is going on in the trades? I read economic reports from various sources and read about the shortages all over the country, and I also experience tradesmen personally, when I hire them or when I speak with them. I called an appliance repairman the other day to fix our kenmore dryer. I was actually told it would take him a month to get to me...so I hired somebody else. One month? really? I know what electricians charge me when they come to my home...I know what plumbers charge...so I have learned to handle routine problems myself. Not long ago, I had some technical work done on my central air conditioning...the charge for a few hours worth of work? $1300....mostly labor charges.

Don't tell me skilled tradesmen are not in high demand and not doing well.......I can't speak for masonry...I would guess that since the housing market is slowing down...masons are also slowing down..... but I tell kids these days, if they like to work with their hands....find a trade and become good at what they do, and they will be set for life...and that is a fact for competent tradesmen.

And I have hired American Construction workers as well as Mexican...and the mexicans work harder, longer, more reliably and for less money and with fewer complaints. That is a fact.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
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Posted: 11/2/2018 8:47:00 AM

This brings up the point: Why isn't the government cracking down on businesses that are employing illegals-as aggressively as that are on capturing illegals?


Who would trump hire then to work on his own projects? Who would he hire who he could so easily refuse to pay and get away with it? But the bottom line is there is a demand for illegal workers and the government doesn't interfere... at least it didn't until Trump because it knows business needs these workers.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 99
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Posted: 11/2/2018 8:51:38 AM

" Illegals on the other hand are washing dishes at the local dive for less than minimum wage."

This brings up the point: Why isn't the government cracking down on businesses that are employing illegals-as aggressively as that are on capturing illegals? Illegals wouldn't have a reason to sneak into another country if there is no opportunity for employment, because of not having the proper documentation. But the government seems to turn a blind eye to farms and businesses who employ illegals, and put all of the blame on the illegals as the bad guy. It would be easy enough for businesses to require any job applicant to show ID before hiring
I am far less knowledgable on the politics than I am my real life experiences but would suspect a political agenda. the left are great humanitarians while the racist white conservatives are ignorant. go back a decade or two and create policies that work and follow them and it never makes it into mainstream media. MY VERY FIRST POST on this thread was about why so many were against immigration. how many understood the point?
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
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Posted: 11/2/2018 9:02:14 AM

Why do I have to work in the trades to know what is going on in the trades? I read economic reports from various sources and read about the shortages all over the country, and I also experience tradesmen personally, when I hire them or when I speak with them
exactly my point! your dismissing information coming directly from those living it but argue based on what you read or heard second hand. come to Pittsburgh, I will show you what is really happening!
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