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 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 101
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or failsPage 5 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)

I can relate to that. When I got married, we had a joint account, where both paychecks and any other money went into. When she left, she took half of the money out of the joint account, and I found out later she had another bank account in her name only with a substantial amount of money in it. Unknown to me, she wasn't depositing her whole paycheck into the joint account, while I was.


I think everyone should have their own money.
I've always had my own money, after putting some in a joint account for household expenses.
Have to wonder why she kept it a secret though.
Either she felt she needed a plan or she didn't think you'd understand?
I'm a poet and I don't even know it!
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 102
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:06:34 PM
has everything to do with being all in. all in means 100% without ANY doubt it will not go off the rails and you will overcome ANY issues. as soon as you say 'what if', your no longer 100%. very few are ever in 100% and a woman being in all the way while the guy isn't WILL end as you say. entering a relationship with an exit plan is smart, no argument there, but their are clearly doubts if you feel you need one. flying in a plane with a parachute, you can be 99.99% certain you wont need it but would need a true 100% to leave it behind.
 Carnival_Fishing
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 103
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:07:42 PM
There are people who are against the idea of signing a pre-nup before marrying someone, because their vision of a pre-nup is planning for divorce-a failed marriage-and people don't want to go into a marriage with a plan for failure. But setting up a separate bank account in the event of a failed relationship is the same thing.

I wonder what women would say if a guy was to say to her: "I want to have my own bank account that you don't have access to, just in case we get divorced."
 Clytemnestra
Joined: 6/6/2018
Msg: 104
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:17:04 PM
msg#100:
not ever really in 100% then are they?

Has nothing to do with being all in. It has to do with being able to protect yourself and your children if things go off the rails and you need to leave. Much better than being left with no choice but to put up with an abusive partner. I get a lot of men prefer women have no choice, smart women have a plan.


+1
Yes, smart women have a Plan B and money of their own.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 105
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:22:03 PM

has everything to do with being all in. all in means 100% without ANY doubt it will not go off the rails and you will overcome ANY issues. as soon as you say 'what if', your no longer 100%. very few are ever in 100% and a woman being in all the way while the guy isn't WILL end as you say. entering a relationship with an exit plan is smart, no argument there, but their are clearly doubts if you feel you need one. flying in a plane with a parachute, you can be 99.99% certain you wont need it but would need a true 100% to leave it behind.


Not much has a 100% certainty. Death of course.
Not even taxes anymore.

Anyone past the age of yesterday should have doubts about everything.
Not an anticipation of something happening, but certainly a realization that something might.
Some surprises are acceptable the first time around...not so much the second.
Everyone should have a plan.
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 106
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:41:14 PM

There are people who are against the idea of signing a pre-nup before marrying someone, because their vision of a pre-nup is planning for divorce-a failed marriage-and people don't want to go into a marriage with a plan for failure. But setting up a separate bank account in the event of a failed relationship is the same thing.
kind of my point. maybe to a lesser degree but the same motive. I am in no way suggesting we all run into relationships blind (most do anyways) but having an exit plan is already planning ahead for the end of it, not merely accepting that it could end. however slight the efforts on this, that effort is towards out, not in so the trust is already gone, even if your partner never knows. this goes both ways on many aspects of a relationship but planning for your exit is a step towards your exit.
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 107
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:42:15 PM
July - post 55

Many of you older women keep bringing up the mistakes of my past which I've been fully open with, setting me up for constant criticism, yet most of you have made similar mistakes in your past. What's wrong with me trying to make my life better? I made a mistake by choosing the wrong man and I dare hope to one day find a good man even though a large part of me doubts I will. My optimism seems to rankle you.

Yes, we've made mistakes.
Some of us have actually learned something about ourselves from them.
You don't appear to be learning.

It isn't your optimism which rankles us (well, not me at least), it's your apparent stupidity in not appearing to have learned from your past.
(Therefore making your optimism unjustified, unwarranted, and dangerous.)


I am not looking for a knight in shining armour because I don't believe they exist, at least for average-looking 35-year-old single mothers of 3 kids. If I was a knockout then sure. Men are usually willing to rescue a beautiful woman.

This is really terribly sad.
You don't get a knight in shining armor, a man becomes the knight in shining armor FOR you.

Right here you're saying that you don't believe you deserve anything more than a guy who will provide you with the four qualities of
physical safety (actually you're only asking for the appearance of physical safety - he has to be tall),
financial security (if it's that bad, get a room mate and leave the sex out of it or let your ex- have custody of the kid for a year while you work as much as you can),
occasional appreciation (I mean, if you stayed with your unappreciative ex- for 10 years then you have a very low need for appreciation) that you will barter for, and
romance which you define as physical gifts. (as an aside, Google 'Five Love Languages' or read the book/s by Gary Chapman).

You appear to have effectively married a man you didn't like and had 3 children with him, staying with him for a decade.
Yet, your criteria for men you will consider dating is superficial (tall so he appears stronger than you, makes more money than you) and I can predict that if you don't change your criteria -- you'll end up with another man you don't like.

At least make different mistakes...
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 108
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:44:43 PM

Not much has a 100% certainty. Death of course.
Not even taxes anymore.

Anyone past the age of yesterday should have doubts about everything.
Not an anticipation of something happening, but certainly a realization that something might.
Some surprises are acceptable the first time around...not so much the second.
Everyone should have a plan.
not debating that, I even agree. just calling it what it is. I for one will never be in 100% again.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 109
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:48:17 PM
^^^^Just make sure to tell that to the person you might like to be with.
It's important to know upfront what someone's intentions are.
Not everyone will appreciate your frankness about the importance of
relationship participation.
 Ladyinred0407
Joined: 2/6/2016
Msg: 110
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 1:53:58 PM

............….ANY issues. as soon as you say 'what if', your no longer 100%. very few are ever in 100%.........…


Just curious. IF the concept is...……...to be ALL in, both parties must agree ALL money goes in the same pot?

So both have access ………..just in case / "What if?"?

Does one have life insurance...………...just in case / "what if"??

Health insurance / long term care insurance/ cancer / dental / vision / disability / ………….home owners / fire / flood, ……………..vehicle / accident...………………..

Are these ^ ^ ^ not ALL covered under …………"What if"?


I believe everyone should have an emergency fund, in their name for …………."What if?"
 johnfromzelie
Joined: 3/8/2018
Msg: 111
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 2:02:22 PM
so do you also tell your partner your planning ahead for the end? I have a plan b just like you but yours is 'smart' while mine are something different? it is the same thing. I have no desire to have 'whats yours is mine and mine is yours' but if I did, it wouldn't be whats some of yours is mine and all of mine yours.
 fullmoonguy2
Joined: 6/14/2017
Msg: 112
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 2:20:54 PM

so do you also tell your partner your planning ahead for the end?


One might think so, given the widespread declarations that trust and transparency are essential for a truly deep and fulfilling relationship, but I wouldn't hold my breath with most people.
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 113
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 2:45:09 PM
Since I'm getting towards the age when 'the end' is death...

So, yeah - if I get into any relationship, I let my partner know that I'm covered.
 calliopedreams
Joined: 11/21/2017
Msg: 114
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 3:48:54 PM

Msg 94: There's a reason divorce rates for couples where the wife makes more money are skyhigh. There's an inherent power from being the one who makes more. And in my experience it made my ex extremely unhappy and led to the biggest problem in our relationship.

Another sweeping generalization based on anectdotal evidence that is WRONG according to "Scholarly studies."

Msg 95: You are first quoting a general statistic, then your unique situation. Your unique situation doesn't apply to the general stat.

Quite so, dragonbytes.
It turns out that it is not the male in the relationship where the woman makes more that is dissatisfied, it is the FEMALE.

“Bringing this closer to home, when wives believe that the statuses they worked so hard to achieve at work are at risk because of their husbands’ lower job status, they could experience a different kind of status spillover, which would include feeling embarrassed by or resentful of their spouses’ lower job status, and fearing that their status could be compromised by that of their husbands,” the study explains.


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article148558804.html


Or it takes a loser who mooches.


You just reallly seem to have all the answers, and are extremely judgmental and demeaning of others who do not live according to your formulaic standards. I have evidence of a well-paid colleague, whose hubby was the stay-at-home parent and it worked very well for them and their children. Scoff all you like, but a relationship is not a checklist situation.

At some point, you will have to address the reason you ran away from growing up enough before you had children to know who you are. You still don't really know, because you avoided the situation by plunging yourself into the role of "mother," before you even knew who you were as an individual. If you liked yourself, you would not be so fearful of being alone/on your own, and would not need to seek the brief respites of feeling good about yourself that are fed by your FWB sex exchanges.


Besides, this whole thread is so FOS, as per usual.

A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails


Seriously? The success of a relationship is the responsibility of the man?

You seem to have no end of excuses about your situation; you need to lose weight, wear makeup, move out, but god forbid you should get your own place, you might have to face yourself ... everything is something external and superficial. Nothing involves you looking at who you are. Good luck with that!
 Ladyinred0407
Joined: 2/6/2016
Msg: 115
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 4:33:18 PM

July - post 55

Many of you older women keep bringing up the mistakes of my past which I've been fully open with, setting me up for constant criticism, yet most of you have made similar mistakes in your past. What's wrong with me trying to make my life better? I made a mistake by choosing the wrong man and I dare hope to one day find a good man even though a large part of me doubts I will. My optimism seems to rankle you.


Au contraire, .........… Optimism? An ostrich with her head buried in the sand, is more like it.



Yes, we've made mistakes.
Some of us have actually learned something about ourselves from them.
You don't appear to be learning.


Many of us have made mistakes, more than once. We made choices, good AND bad. …………………... And then we learned to take full responsibility for THOSE choices, good or bad and CHANGE our lives, change our way of thinking and strive to give ourselves and our children, (for those of us who have children) a BETTER life...……...WITH or without a partner.

We LEARNED! Was it easy? HELL NO! We stopped bellaching about HIM / THEM ...............….....................and looked in the mirror.



It isn't your optimism which rankles us (well, not me at least), it's your apparent stupidity in not appearing to have learned from your past.
(Therefore making your optimism unjustified, unwarranted, and dangerous.)


I don't perceive "optimism". I see denial / blame/ and excuses. ...............….

Oh and once and for all, One's viewpoint? Own it. I lost track of how many women AND MEN, (let me write that again) women AND MEN have mentioned...…"Speak for your self".
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 116
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 4:37:52 PM

I wonder what women would say if a guy was to say to her: "I want to have my own bank account that you don't have access to, just in case we get divorced."

He doesn't have to say it like that. He could leave out the divorce part. Look, he should just say I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But I am keeping all my bank accounts and crreditcards,etc because I am NOT marrying based on the false idea that we are financial partners..we are much more than that". It worked for me. Mind you my spouse knew I am a latchkey kid from a terrible divorce where my father won custody and she was smart enough to know where I am coming from.

I am generally against joint bank accounts unless it is just a certain amount put in to pay common expenses. I actually reject the American idea of marriage where it is "a financial partnership"..because it REALLY isn't. Both parties might have separate debt and expenses.The whole legal system is messed up in that idea IMHO.

My brother and wife are married over 20 years and do have common expenses and I was a bit surprised they don't have any joint accounts. They have a system where one pays certain expenses and other does the same from their own accounts.
I as well always kept my finances separate , as did my spouse. When 2 independent people get married there is , IMHO, NOT any reason to combine finances.
I did a stint in finance when I retired and I can't believe all the divorcees, both sexes, that made stupid errors because they lacked good common sense. An example is co mingling separate funds without traceable proof. Most friends I have in finance have similar advice.

Marry for love NOT to be a financial partnership....that doesn't work I think.

I also think ALL people getting married, in today's crazy outdated legal system should get pre nups. I don't see why ANYONE, knowing today's high divorce rates, would flinch. Ironically, I was young and didn't do a pre nupt officially(although I did mention it and forgot about it when the time came) but when my wife asked for a post nupt over a decade later I jumped at it. Here , I cherished the fact and her, that after a decade of marriage and all the ups and downs that she didn't get greedy/corrupted like many spouses do and actually wanted me to feel good by suggesting a post nupt. She used to say, jokingly I am sure, if that if the time came she didn't want me anymore than the LAST THING she would want is anything from me..including money(I was much more financially off than her as well). We stayed true to our belief system..NOT the state gov't imposed system. Hell, we even did a city hall marriage and no wedding and the only rings we had was what her mom gave us.

What is interesting is my 2 best friends growing up also had similar marriages and values.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 117
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 5:47:18 PM

However, I will admit that women often know how to do relationships better than men. Also, there is a lack of old-fashioned gentlemen available today.

I really don't see it that way. I think it depends on the market one's going after on either side. I think "types" dictate that more than gender. That said, I think you will find more women who are more in LTR-or-bust mode than men are. That said, a lack of full interest-level will kill anyone's ability to handle relationships sufficiently, which happens for either gender.

When I got married, we had a joint account, where both paychecks and any other money went into. When she left, she took half of the money out of the joint account, and I found out later she had another bank account in her name only with a substantial amount of money in it.

I would make a joint account not the main checking account -- not where the paycheck's being deposited. Whomever's making notably more money should be contributing more in for their mutual household budget. You didn't know how much she was making, or was she just extracting money for "expenses" and just depositing in her own side account? Shady. :)

very few are ever in 100% and a woman being in all the way while the guy isn't WILL end as you say.

Those situations should only occur when it comes to going-steady. A real bad move in terms of getting married, or even moving in together. Also, I will say it'll most likely End if EITHER gender isn't "all in" but goes ahead in moving in or getting hitched.

entering a relationship with an exit plan is smart, no argument there, but their are clearly doubts if you feel you need one.

I wouldn't think so, not currently. If I'm making $500k/yr, and I'm talking marriage with a gal who's making $50k/yr, I'd certainly bring up prenup type talk aka in-case-sh!t-way-in-future. If I bring up what happens if I die early, what goes down, it doesn't mean I fear croaking 1-2 years later. It's just a in-case-sh!t type of thing. I don't think it indicates doubts about the relationship, just because one who Does have doubts certainly would want to jump on that.

I think the Real blind part would be assuming that just because you don't have doubts about your relationship in the forseeable future at all, it means it will In Fact, 100% stay together forever no matter what over a long period of time.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 118
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 5:50:23 PM
I don't consider it planning for the end. I think everyone should always have their own money. I don't see anything wrong with it. I had a joint account when I was married and I kept my account from before. He had one as well. Would you close out your accounts in favor of joint accounts when you got into a relationship? Not me..and he'd know that.

I would never tell someone I'm not into a relationdhip and they couldn't expect my best self.
 ohenryx
Joined: 3/12/2010
Msg: 119
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 8:55:35 PM
That is one of those things that two people should agree on. You don’t have to be in perfect agreement from the get-go, but you should talk and reach an understanding. You really need to know how the other party views money, and spending, and saving. You have to be able to reach an understanding, some kind of reasonable compromise, or your relationship doesn’t stand a chance.

A marriage doesn’t have to be a financial partnership. But if one partner thinks that way, and the other doesn’t, the outlook is not good. As Boo said so well, you should be “all in” and they should expect your best effort. But what that means in relation to finances is something for the two of you to work out, together. BEFORE.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 120
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/30/2018 11:00:25 PM
In my situation before, we technically had individual chequing and savings accounts, along with joint accounts. The problem was, our individual accounts and joint savings accounts were always empty. We lived paycheque to paycheque HALF the time. When he was actually working we would begin to pay off debts but never got to the bottom because he'd lose/quit his job. And when you have kids, its difficult not to pool finances. When the woman takes an extended leave from work after having a baby, she's not making money and when a man's not working, ditto. It only works keeping your finances separate if each person makes enough to sustain themself.

The reality is that many people do not make enough money to be self-sufficient WITH kids. I know so many people living paycheque to paycheque.
 2ufo
Joined: 12/25/2017
Msg: 121
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/31/2018 8:17:55 AM

That is one of those things that two people should agree on. You don’t have to be in perfect agreement from the get-go, but you should talk and reach an understanding.

Agreed!
Unlike the past - where the social 'exchanges' (male=money, women=home&kids) were known - these days there are so many options that to not recognize and prepare for them is like trying to go mountain-climbing on a warm day without a coat (a nod to LH). What exists at the moment (i.e. sunny, light breeze, t-shirt) isn't going to be the same as you continue on (incoming clouds/fog/mist, whipping wind, expedition-weight clothing) even though the activity (mountain-climbing) is the same.

My ex-husband and I, living in a common property state, wrote out our own pre-nup that delineated our financial responsibilities. Why? I insisted because he was divorced with 2 children by his first wife. Later, we had a lawyer draw up a post-nup and wills for each of us. Now, consider if he gets married again - without designating financial responsibilities - then dies. Who gets whatever he has? He would have two-ex-wives, a widow, and at least three children as well as a couple of grandkids. (Hint: since I doubt he has done since we had wills done, I could legally sweep down and claim it all.) A pre- or post-nuptial doesn't simply delineate who gets what in the event of a divorce, it outlines what each partner wants and expects in the event that the marriage is dissolved.

And, for the record, in the past it was expected that a woman would save her money out of any money the man gave her. A smart woman would learn to economize and save out of the grocery money. Too many older women of my grandmother's generation had to work after the age of 50, 60, 65 because they expected the man to take care of them - and he didn't. No, these social norms aren't applicable now - but generational habits die hard.


I for one will never be in 100% again.

A lot of people won't.
Some people never did go 100%.
But I think people need to differentiate what is 100%.

Finances? No, I won't go there and, knowing my ex-husband was a spendthrift, I didn't the first time I got married. But we did talk about it and he agreed because he recognized that (1) I was better with money and finances, (2) I had the higher paying job, and (3) I was transparent with how I handled the money. He know how much I was putting into retirement, how much I contributed to his child support to wife #1, what kind of entertainment/extraneous expenses we could afford at any given time. He also recognized that I needed the financial security to be comfortable while he was perfectly comfortable living paycheck-to-paycheck.

Emotions? That's a deep dark pit. It's scary. I didn't let myself totally fall in love with my ex- because I was scared. I'm a wimp at heart and learning to let all those emotions run rampant inside me is something I'm not sure I could ever do. But I'll try.

Mentally? Oh, heck yeah. Almost every thought I had was towards our marriage - from planning the grocery list to discussing children to considering retirement with him in mind.

Physically? *thoroughly wicked satisfied grin* Yep, I threw myself into our sex life with abandon. I do miss that *reminiscent smile*.
 Noftheborder
Joined: 10/4/2018
Msg: 122
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/31/2018 8:52:50 AM

The reality is that many people do not make enough money to be self-sufficient WITH kids. I know so many people living paycheque to paycheque.


It's obviously too late for you, but here's an interesting concept - don't have kids until you know you can be self-sufficient when you do have them. For too many people, they don't actually plan well prior to having kids; they just have them and hope for the best and then complain about how difficult things are financially.
 Carnival_Fishing
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 123
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/31/2018 9:47:25 AM

But I think people need to differentiate what is 100%.


It's fine and dandy to plan out your life and financial situation on the assumption everything will work out perfectly. But life doesn't always work out perfectly. The real litmus test of how "in" someone is in the relationship, is how people react when things go wrong-like layoff/loss of job and therefore loss of income, either partner getting ill, younger couples who decide to have kids, and then having a child who has a disability that requires 24/7 forever care, etc. If people high tail it at the first sight of trouble in paradise, they were never "in" to begin with-at least not 100%.
 julystorm22
Joined: 6/15/2018
Msg: 124
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/31/2018 11:10:41 AM
It is a good concept being in good financial shape before you have kids but I was of the belief at the time that things were good. I was buying a house after graduating from university and I had a good job. I didn't plan to get pregnant. If I had been able to keep working maybe things would have been okay but for 7 months of my pregnancy I was extremely sick so barely worked and then I went on maternity leave and unfortunately I discovered the guy I was with could not keep a job plus his spending was ridiculous and he started smoking again. I probably should have kicked the guy to the curb and not had more kids with him but Baby #2 came when things had seemed to improve substantially and I really wanted my first child to have a sibling close in age. Baby #3 was not planned. Yes, you can call me stupid but really I think I just wanted to believe everything would come together, I wanted so badly to have a good family time and was determined to persevere. Looking back I think I wanted to get what I didn't have growing up. Mayhap that's the reason many kids who are products of messy divorces grow up to have messy relationships themselves.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 125
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A man's actions are the key variable that determines whether a relationship survives or fails
Posted: 10/31/2018 11:40:06 AM
sad to say, the knight in shining armor who isn't actually a predator looking for the perfect victim is....too busy out getting things accomplished in life (either by working hard or smart) to have time for the partner sitting idly by waiting for someone to bring them a wonderful social life on a silver platter. the best way to meet people going someplace in life is to...join them out on the highway, going someplace yourself. and hopefully its the same destination. alas, the partner who may stop for a while to raise a child, might find this to be a difficult procedure, if the other partner isn't heading in this direction.

unfortunately, the best way to keep a relationship going is, once it gets serious, throw out some of the romantic "its meant to be" and get down to brass tacks. decide what goes into the kitty, and what's your's to spend on what you want. buy a house that doesn't need repairs, which will cost more. talk about where you both are going, and how much will be invested in a family. co owning a pooch when you're playing house isn't enough, its time to ask the questions you may not like the answer to.

co habitation is, unfortunately...a business proposition.
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