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 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 151
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?Page 7 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

"Both politicians are creating scapegoats"

They've always been doing this....especially since the advent of the civil rights era


I'm not sure I can agree with this except in a general sense....politicians of course blame individuals...communists....maybe even "welfare" cheats"...but I don't recall reading about anybody like Trump in the History of our Nation. Trump has adopted wholesale the Hitler/Goebbels playbook..... conjuring up false images of an entire group of people...making them the enemy to his easily manipulated supporters. For example, statistically, immigrants commit far fewer crimes than US citizens in the country on a percentage bases....yet Trump has his supporters believing they are all rapists and criminals.

I don't think my friends like KJ521 understand why people like myself have nothing but utter contempt for Trump....because he truly is a demagogue of the worst order...add to that his incompetence...his destructive personality....his corruption and crime family....he damages and taints everything he touches. His level of despicability goes far beyond any other man who has been our President.

Now with the economy starting to go into recession and the market approaching bear territory.... I wonder if he will continue to have so much support....but clearly among his base who buy into his demagoguery he will continue to have their support. He is simply disgusting, vile, corrupt, terrible man of the worst order and the sooner he is gone, the better off we will all be.
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 152
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/19/2018 7:55:09 PM
@ 151


I'm not sure I can agree with this except in a general sense....politicians of course blame individuals...communists....maybe even "welfare" cheats"...but I don't recall reading about anybody like Trump in the History of our Nation. Trump has adopted wholesale the Hitler/Goebbels playbook..... conjuring up false images of an entire group of people...making them the enemy to his easily manipulated supporters.


Well certainly, Trump has taken scapegoating to a higher level (as you aptly point out) by taking a page directly out of the Nazi "playbook".........but even if just on a "general sense" ...the concept (and practice) of scapegoating was embossed within the American political fabric well before Trump came on the scene....and just like a building with a strong foundation, Trump immediately saw that it was something that could be built upon even higher.


For example, statistically, immigrants commit far fewer crimes than US citizens in the country on a percentage bases....yet Trump has his supporters believing they are all rapists and criminals.


This is true...but this stems from the historical fact that many Americans have always felt in some way threatened by large influxes of migrants (even those who migrated from Eastern & Southern Europe in the early 20th century)... who even then, were unfairly blamed for the societal "ills" of those particular times........Just like Trump now blames Central Americans for the influx of drugs, guns, etc that plague the society...............unfortunately that sentiment has never been fully purged from the American psyche (at least those who live in small town USA)
 LGL1975
Joined: 6/7/2015
Msg: 153
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/19/2018 8:50:30 PM
Trump is not a real nazi or white supremacist. Republicans just pander to these groups because it provides the left a scapegoat. By blaming Trump's policies on nazis and white supremacists the left isn't really focusing on the wealthy elites who set the agenda.

Democrats do the same thing when they pander to black criminals. Voters on the right respond by getting angry at minorities again concealing the fact that both parties are owned by the rich.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 154
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/20/2018 8:42:20 AM

the concept (and practice) of scapegoating was embossed within the American political fabric well before Trump came on the scene....and just like a building with a strong foundation, Trump immediately saw that it was something that could be built upon even higher.


Sure...scapegoating by the populace...blaming Italian immigrants, the Irish, the jews....but has this type of scapegoating ever been practiced at the Presidential Level in the overt manner Trump has practiced it? And so many buy into it. What does it say about the country that so many bought into the Trump falsehoods? Do horrible people like Trump beget horrible people...in this case his supporters...his corrupt appointments?

The GOP as far as I am concerned no longer exists...in its place are the worst people our country has to offer.

Honestly....if I were young and just starting out in life, .....I would be looking to move to Australia or Canada. Europe is even worse than the US though........so that is out.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 155
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/20/2018 8:45:20 AM

Trump is not a real nazi or white supremacist. Republicans just pander to these groups because it provides the left a scapegoat. By blaming Trump's policies on nazis and white supremacists the left isn't really focusing on the wealthy elites who set the agenda.


You say some of the dumbest things....I'm curious where you get your ideas....is there a book of dumbisms somewhere? There of course is always some sort of sliver of truth in your Dumbisms, for the wealthy elites....especially under Trump....certainly seem to be setting the agenda. In the end though, they are all going to end up at the end of a Rope if things get as bad as they possibly might under their agendas.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 156
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/20/2018 10:12:55 AM
"I'm not sure I can agree with this except in a general sense....politicians of course blame individuals...communists....maybe even "welfare" cheats"...but I don't recall reading about anybody like Trump in the History of our Nation."

>>>the closest is Richard Milhous Nixon, who also wanted dictatorial powers due to his thin skin, and constantly tried to act extra-constitionally. of course, internet and twitter didn't exist back then--chump can show his stupidity as soon as a stupid thought enters his head. he can lie to the public instantly, long before his handers even know to cover it up. past presidents at least had a filter. Huckster Sanders is constantly putting out fires, trying to explain what the president really meant--and as soon as she's done, he's off contradicting her in a twit.

" For example, statistically, immigrants commit far fewer crimes than US citizens in the country on a percentage bases....yet Trump has his supporters believing they are all rapists and criminals."

>>>and white collar crimes tend to cost more than street level crime. But LGL is correct, the rich in america have demonized immigrants since the Industrial Gilded Age. Italians used to be the Latin lovers with connections to the Black Hand.

"I don't think my friends like KJ521 understand why people like myself have nothing but utter contempt for Trump"

>>>yet oddly enough, they have no problem putting their hair on fire over a black president. they can believe in pizzagate and birthers, but can't imagine russian collusion. that's a conspiracy too far for them. which shows that they are in, fact, biased towards believing only one group could be evil.

"..add to that his incompetence...his destructive personality....his corruption and crime family....he damages and taints everything he touches. His level of despicability goes far beyond any other man who has been our President."

>>>say what you will about HRC--and there's a lot--she wouldn't have been so unbelievably incompetent. she wouldn't have turned the White House into a revolving door of musical chairs. and what's with the Syria pullout, anyway? Chump thought Obama announcing a pullout was warning the enemy how long they should lay low until we disappear, and was a sign of incompetance. now he's doing it, and every trumpanzee who parroted what he said about Obama...has no accusation about Chump. chump is going to do to Syria, what Bush did to Iraq--leave it in Iranian hands or for any radical sunni group who wants to maintain a base of operations for worldwide programs.

meanwhile the gun nuts are ready to go crazy...they didn't want HRC to take their guns, now they're going to lose bumpstocks, and hey, the NRA got infiltrated by the reds! what a fun week to be a liberal :)

"trump is not a real nazi"

>>>well, he hasn't written "my plan" yet, or started camps. he wanted to, but he hasn't yet.

"trump is not a white supremacist"

>>.evidence shows otherwise. maybe he's one of the good supremacists?

"republicants just pander to these groups b/c it annoys the lefties"

>>>republicants don't care about the left. they pander to their base, b/c no one else is going out to vote. the funny thing about what chump has done to the GOP...he hasn't changed it, he just revealed its what liberals always said it was. the days of dog whistles and code words are over.

"dems do the same thing when they pander to black criminals"

>>when did they do this? was it when the Clintons talked about supercriminals? and who thinks the people they pander to are criminals?

"But because the left has been psychologically conditioned to be intolerant of any position other than its own they are not able to distinguish between reality and make believe."

>>>so, the left caters to transgenders, feminists, black criminals (I guess white ones don't matter?) but they can't tolerate any position but their own? sounds like they have a ton of positions to choose from. if anyone sounds tolerant, its the group who tolerates the most different viewpoints.
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 157
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/20/2018 10:44:13 AM

> >>>republicants don't care about the left. they pander to their base, b/c no one else is going out to vote. the funny thing about what chump has done to the GOP...he hasn't changed it, he just revealed its what liberals always said it was. the days of dog whistles and code words are over.


I don't buy GOP politicians were always the terrible people they are now. They have always been warmongers....but at least they had dignity not all that long ago...integrity. The GOP politicians are different today. They are anti-science, anti reason, anti logic...sycophants...greedy little **stards ready to sell out their country for their party and their jobs. As for the masses........yea..they have always been what they are...but Trumpism makes it okay to bring it to the surface. What some people say in Public now...incredible.
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 158
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/20/2018 6:35:32 PM
@ 154


Sure...scapegoating by the populace...blaming Italian immigrants, the Irish, the jews....but has this type of scapegoating ever been practiced at the Presidential Level in the overt manner Trump has practiced it?


well maybe not quite as Trump has "practiced" it.....but perhaps you should have a look at the set of anti-immigration laws that were signed into law in 1924...which were specifically aimed at slowing immigration of Southern Europeans and Jews from Eastern Europe down to a trickle..........The reasons of course is that these people were regarded as unworthy, troublesome, Anti-American, and unable to assimilate, and of course....none of them were considered as being on par with the Northern European whites.....regardless of how they appeared!

These are the Johnson-Reed act (part of a Triad that consisted of the Native origins act, and the Asian exclusion act). The latter was aimed at bring a complete halt to Asians and Siberian Asiatics from coming into the US on the west coast. Interestingly enough, this had no impact on South Americans (of which there were few at the time), and Black African migration (of which there was little if any).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

Both Johnson & Reed were Republicans...and Coolidge was more than happy to sign this into law (although was deemed as unconstitutional). Johnson was also the "head" of the US eugenics movement...which was later used as a template by the Nazis for their own eugenics program.

This is one of the reasons why many Jews have chosen to ally themselves with Democrats through the years....more than any other migrant group, they quickly realized who they needed to fear the most.

The Johnson-reed act stayed in place for about 15 years....and was eliminated during the 1940's when the US (victors of ww-2) lost their taste for grand scale xenophobia...and again opened the doors to immigrants pre-1924.


Do horrible people like Trump beget horrible people...in this case his supporters...his corrupt appointments?


As I alluded...this strain of people were always here...they were just dormant....waiting to be awakened by the right kind of rhetoric.....at the right time...by the right person.

Trump found out they were there when he conducted his Birther crusade...that was his "field experiment" that convinced him that they could be had!


I don't buy GOP politicians were always the terrible people they are now.


In the last century.....apart from ideological differences, both Democrats and Republicans were on equal footing ethically and morally, they both had their racists and bigots but both drew the line and placed 'Country First' before anything else!.....but that began to slowly change for the republicans through the 1960's & 70's, and evolved into what it is now....a party largely controlled by the very rich & powerful...whose goal is to serve their needs, even at the detriment of the nation.

I have to say that the Republicans have done a good job of duping a good number of the more simplistic folks amongst us....such that they've been able to convince even the far less wealthy in many parts of the country that their policy & politics serve their best interests................this has been facilitated by the Democrats' mishaps in the post Clinton era...who "lost their way"....and began to embrace elitism/globalism...at the expense of their traditional base!
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 159
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/21/2018 7:27:02 AM
LeFou

"I have to say that the Republicans have done a good job of duping a good number of the more simplistic folks amongst us....such that they've been able to convince even the far less wealthy in many parts of the country that their policy & politics serve their best interests................this has been facilitated by the Democrats' mishaps in the post Clinton era...who "lost their way"....and began to embrace elitism/globalism...at the expense of their traditional base!"

And is that not what myself, john and lgl have been saying? The political parties who SHOULD be championing the working class, the democrats in shermanland and london labour over here have abandoned those same working class.

Not just abandoned them due to elitism and globalism but also identity politics. This may come as a great shock to many but 'trans rights' are just not high up the agenda for the vast majority of voters. Yet 'trans rights' are treated like they are something folk struggling to make ends meet are supposed to give a toss about.

We just had a homeless geezer died in an underpass outside parliament in Westminster. Yet what were they getting irate about in the house?

Because london labour leader jeremy corbyn allegedly called teresa may, the prime minister a stupid woman.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 160
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/21/2018 9:53:19 AM
"I don't buy GOP politicians were always the terrible people they are now."

>>>i can understand the sentiment, its in the past. but listen again to Nixon's white house tapes--that man gleefully slams "blacks and Jews" as only the insecure can. and then there was Nixon's "southern strategy" to win. Gerald Ford did his best to stay away from it, but Ronald Reagan embraced the southern strategy. He campaigned on "local government" and a "return to things as they were", dog whistles to the deep south who heard, "elect me and i won't send the Justice Dept down here to enforce the civil rights act, like my democrat counterpart will". As an actor, his time running SAG saw him in bed with the witchhunters, and as governor, with the Goldwater and Lee Atwood crew, but we can argue he was a product of his time. But he sure didn't hide his views when he toured a Nazi cemetary in germany, nor took the side of apartheid when the rest of the world turned against south africa.

As for dignity, integrity, and not being anti science, i guess we could look at Reagan and bush selling weaponry to the Iranians who held americans hostage and then bombed 241 marines as a suggestion of where their patriotism really was...and perhaps their dismissal of AIDS as a gay man's disease and not worthy of being seen as a health issue, as their views on science. bush brought us the willie horton ad, paving the way for Karl rove and what spews out of chump's mouth today. like i said, chump just says out loud, what we suspected republicants were thinking amongst themselves.

thanks, lefou, for the history lesson. Alex Hamilton's Federalist political party brought us the Alien Act before 1924 (the party that would turn into the Democrats ran against it), and of course Chump's america first policy isn't new--Charles Lindbergh, the celebrity of his day, ran on it. the Dems did champion the working class, but the working class left it for Ronald Reagan. He brought back the Southern Strategy, and he went to war while Carter lost the Iranian hostages. Somehow the working class thought trickle down economics was good for them. then bush had the savings and loan crisis--for a moment, there was a rush on construction.

as for "identity politics", don't forget, a vast majority of americans voted for HRC. that means what chump was selling, he wasn't selling to the numerical majority. so, his message is no more majority than, say, transgender rights. so, if trangenders don't want to die in hate crimes, shouldn't they be as listened to as angry white men who just want to keep their jobs in industries that don't exist anymore and not transfer to new ones? who's to decide which complaints are more valid?
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 161
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/21/2018 11:42:59 AM
GTO
"so, if trangenders don't want to die in hate crimes, shouldn't they be as listened to as angry white men who just want to keep their jobs in industries that don't exist anymore and not transfer to new ones? who's to decide which complaints are more valid?"


That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What industries and what jobs are you talking about?

Lots of people die in hate crimes. Every race can show victims of hate crimes. You can get killed for being from the wrong part of a town. That's a hate crime.

What constitutes a hate crime then? Who defines what a hate crime is?

So are you saying someone who is trans is more of a victim than anyone else?

What 'rights' are denied to trans that others enjoy? The right not to be murdered because of what you identify as? Then that applies to everyone does it not?

EVERYONE has the right to go about their lives without being murdered.

So again. What rights do others enjoy that those identifying as trans do not have?



"Americans urged to vote 'like lives depend on it' after reports of Trump anti-trans push. Rights groups in midterms drive after officials reportedly planning to define gender as only male or female and determined at birth"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/22/americans-trump-transgender-lgbt-civil-rights


So have i to take from the article above that voters were to vote for something they probably don't give a toss about?

So lack of decent jobs. Lack of decent wages. Lack of decent housing were to be shoved to one side and vote for trans rights? I mean SERIOUSLY?
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 162
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/21/2018 12:26:14 PM
LeFou
"Both Johnson & Reed were Republicans...and Coolidge was more than happy to sign this into law (although was deemed as unconstitutional). Johnson was also the "head" of the US eugenics movement...which was later used as a template by the Nazis for their own eugenics program."


Some articles below that you might like to look at regarding eugenics.

This one is as relevant over the pond as it is over here................


"We live in a country where the poorest members of society are literally trapped. We pay them millions not to work, simply maintaining them at subsistence level like prisoners of the state.

Tied up with bureaucratic regulations and subject to crazy marginal rates of tax, there are few chances to escape for Britain’s welfare-dependent.

A million of those out of work have been jobless for a decade or more. They see their chances of getting a job in the future as so remote as to be barely worth considering. The chances of their children ever finding work are beginning to look slim too.

The neighbourhoods in which they live are falling apart. The squalor is palpable; crime rampant; local schools are very often failing or ‘sink’ schools. If you think I’m exaggerating, choose any area with a high level of welfare-dependency and go and look for yourself."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2009/11/how-eugenics-poisoned-the-welfare-state/


This one is an article from the labour party in house magazine................


"This story begins 150 years ago. In 1859 Charles Darwin published his groundbreaking book Origin of Species which expounded his theory of evolution by natural selection.

It wasn't long before scientists and political theorists began to apply Darwin's theory to human beings. With the spread of ideas about "the survival of the fittest", social Darwinists started to question the wisdom of providing care to the "weak" on the grounds this would enable people to live and reproduce who were not meant to survive.

They feared that offering medical treatment and social services to disabled people would undermine the natural struggle for existence and lead to the degeneration of the human race."

https://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/12/british-eugenics-disabled


And finally this from the liberal gaurdian media outlet. George Bernard Shaw's quote is quite memorable considering what happened many years later................


"Eugenics: the skeleton that rattles loudest in the left's closet

Socialism's one-time interest in eugenics is dismissed as an accident of history. But the truth is far more unpalatable

Most alarming, many of its leading advocates were found among the luminaries of the Fabian and socialist left, men and women revered to this day.

Thus George Bernard Shaw could insist that "the only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man", even suggesting, in a phrase that chills the blood, that defectives be dealt with by means of a "lethal chamber".

Indeed, a desire to limit the numbers of the inferior was written into modern notions of birth control from the start. That great pioneer of contraception, Marie Stopes – honoured with a postage stamp in 2008 – was a hardline eugenicist, determined that the "hordes of defectives" be reduced in number, thereby placing less of a burden on "the fit".

Stopes later disinherited her son because he had married a short-sighted woman, thereby risking a less-than-perfect grandchild.

Yet what looks kooky or sinister in 2012 struck the prewar British left as solid and sensible. Harold Laski, stellar LSE professor, co-founder of the Left Book Club and one-time chairman of the Labour party, cautioned that: "The time is surely coming … when society will look upon the production of a weakling as a crime against itself."

Meanwhile, JBS Haldane, admired scientist and socialist, warned that: "Civilisation stands in real danger from over-production of 'undermen'." That's Untermenschen in German.

I'm afraid even the Manchester Guardian was not immune. When a parliamentary report in 1934 backed voluntary sterilisation of the unfit, a Guardian editorial offered warm support, endorsing the sterilisation campaign "the eugenists soundly urge". If it's any comfort, the New Statesman was in the same camp.

According to Dennis Sewell, whose book The Political Gene charts the impact of Darwinian ideas on politics, the eugenics movement's definition of "unfit" was not limited to the physically or mentally impaired. It held, he writes, "that most of the behavioural traits that led to poverty were inherited. In short, that the poor were genetically inferior to the educated middle class." It was not poverty that had to be reduced or even eliminated: it was the poor.

Hence the enthusiasm of John Maynard Keynes, director of the Eugenics Society from 1937 to 1944, for contraception, essential because the working class was too "drunken and ignorant" to keep its numbers down.

They believed in science and progress, and nothing was more cutting edge and modern than social Darwinism. Man now had the ability to intervene in his own evolution. Instead of natural selection and the law of the jungle, there would be planned selection. And what could be more socialist than planning.

Progressives face a particular challenge, to cast off a mentality that can too easily regard people as means rather than ends. For in this respect a movement is just like a person: it never entirely escapes its roots."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-loudest-closet-left
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 163
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/21/2018 4:52:06 PM
">>>yet oddly enough, they have no problem putting their hair on fire over a black president."



Why do you focus so much on skin color?

Racist much?

Check your white male privilege, please. :)


Msg: 162

Margaret Sanger a real trailblazer for eugenics...er...I mean planned parenthood. (<----that sounds better & makes you feel all nice and in controlly!). ;)

 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 164
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/21/2018 8:37:12 PM
At Drac


LeFou
"I have to say that the Republicans have done a good job of duping a good number of the more simplistic folks amongst us....such that they've been able to convince even the far less wealthy in many parts of the country that their policy & politics serve their best interests................this has been facilitated by the Democrats' mishaps in the post Clinton era...who "lost their way"....and began to embrace elitism/globalism...at the expense of their traditional base!"

And is that not what myself, john and lgl have been saying?


I've only been on these forums for several weeks, so I really don't know too much about anybody else's themes .....from what Ive read from lgl....he is expounding that political parties pander to certain groups to annoy their oponnents.......from what I've briefly read by you...it gives me the impression that the UK left is to be blamed for all your (real or imagined) national malaise.



The political parties who SHOULD be championing the working class, the democrats in shermanland


I can't speak for how it works in the UK (for all I care), but the Democrats have always championed the "working class" here in the US......I will admit that some groups of Democrats have done a better job at it than other Democrats at different points in time..............not unlike a sports team that has a good season one year...and then has a poor season another year, but the philosophy of that team have remained the same regardless

This ^ is in contrast to the Republicans who have always "championed" big industry, corporations....regardless of how it impacts on the lower echelons of society.............a good example of this was "trickle down economics" expounded by Reagan in the 80's..........which fizzled out!

The Republicans win out...only when the Democrats fall short of what is expected of them (they have a higher bar), or are unable to clearly articulate their narratives..............that is when the republicans "smell blood"...and use any lie or subterfuge to gain the upper hand.... aimed especially at those who they know they can hood-wink!


Some articles below that you might like to look at regarding eugenics.

This one is as relevant over the pond as it is over here.


....and your point is what?
Just because there have been left-leaning prominant individuals who have embraced eugenics, are you implying that they are the only ones who should own it?.............I already said that both sides have their bigots and racists, yet you seem go out of your way to tar just one side!

In my prior post....I pointed out Johnson and Reed...2 ardent Republicans (as was Coolidge who signed their bills into law), who erected a racist piece of legislature aimed at blocking the influx of migrants (whose appearance and background was different from their own) by "scapegoating" them as incorrigibles, un-american, mentally inferior, criminal minded, shifty, etc.

I mentioned Johnson as member & leader of the US Eugenics movement...just to highlight his political pedigree, and not to indict the whole Republicans or right-wingers as militant Eugenicists.

What you (and others like yourself) fail or refuse to realize...is that the only ones who truly benefit by keeping people in the poverty bin......is big corporations/industry who have gained the favors from the Republican party through the years..........these are the same entities who have thrived by the presence of undocumented workers...in the farm fields, the cellars of factories, sweat shops, etc.......these are the same migrants who are now being pegged as rapists, misfits, inferiors, incorrigibles, etc, by Trump & Co.....................but nothing punitative was ever done to the businesses who have exploited these people all along...why? because the Repubs didn't want that to happen.

Again, I am giving you the American perspective of it.....I don't know (nor do I care) how the politics differ in your country.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 165
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/22/2018 2:20:58 AM
LeFou
"I've only been on these forums for several weeks, so I really don't know too much about anybody else's themes .....from what Ive read from lgl....he is expounding that political parties pander to certain groups to annoy their oponnents.......from what I've briefly read by you...it gives me the impression that the UK left is to be blamed for all your (real or imagined) national malaise."

And you would be wrong. I have since i have been old enough to vote, voted for the Scottish Nationalist Party who have implemented some excellent policies in Scotland. They are centre left but i feel they are still too close to neo liberalism................

"I can't speak for how it works in the UK (for all I care),"

Aw shucks. Shoot those poisoned arrows...............

"but the Democrats have always championed the "working class" here in the US......I will admit that some groups of Democrats have done a better job at it than other Democrats at different points in time.............."

Yet some sections of the working class abandoned them en-masse. Of course the old 'racism' comfort blanket can be thrown out there but it has been shown millions of folk who voted for obama twice then voted for president the donald.................

"not unlike a sports team that has a good season one year...and then has a poor season another year, but the philosophy of that team have remained the same regardless"

Na i disagree. We get quite a lot about sherman politics over here. I read michael moores blog just before the presidential election. He wrote that trump will win because the democrats embraced globalism at the expense of the american working class..................

"This ^ is in contrast to the Republicans who have always "championed" big industry, corporations....regardless of how it impacts on the lower echelons of society.............a good example of this was "trickle down economics" expounded by Reagan in the 80's..........which fizzled out!"

The same neo liberalism that margaret thatcher implemented over here. I'm well aware that the republicans support big business. The same as the tories over here. The left in the uk collapsed under tony blair when he also abandoned the working class and embraced globalism................

"The Republicans win out...only when the Democrats fall short of what is expected of them (they have a higher bar), or are unable to clearly articulate their narratives.............."

But you just said that the democrat philosophy is the same no matter what. So what was expected from the democrats that they never offered working folk? And what were their narratives?....................

"that is when the republicans "smell blood"...and use any lie or subterfuge to gain the upper hand.... aimed especially at those who they know they can hood-wink!"

You sound suspiciously like Platy there. Ah so the democrats do not lie then? That's interesting................

"Some articles below that you might like to look at regarding eugenics.
This one is as relevant over the pond as it is over here.
....and your point is what?"

My point is you mentioned eugenics and i gave you some links to read about the creation of the eugenics movement..............

"Just because there have been left-leaning prominant individuals who have embraced eugenics, are you implying that they are the only ones who should own it?............."

Nope. Once again i merely showed where the eugenics movement started. And the man who helped the creation of the welfare state in the uk after world war 2 was actually a liberal politician whom was also a believer in eugenics. As was the tory winston churchill................

"I already said that both sides have their bigots and racists, yet you seem go out of your way to tar just one side!"

Err i never wrote the articles. One was from the guardian liberal newspaper. One was from the labour party in house magazine the new statesman. And 'it's a fair cop guv' one was from the tory in house magazine the spectator.............

"In my prior post....I pointed out Johnson and Reed...2 ardent Republicans (as was Coolidge who signed their bills into law), who erected a racist piece of legislature aimed at blocking the influx of migrants (whose appearance and background was different from their own) by "scapegoating" them as incorrigibles, un-american, mentally inferior, criminal minded, shifty, etc."

Yep that is exactly how i read your post. Did they just wake up one morning and think 'ooooo I've just had a good idea'? Or were they influenced by other proponents of eugenics?...................

"Eugenic Ideas, Political Interests, and Policy Variance: Immigration and Sterilization Policy in Britain and the U.S."
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25054146?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

"I mentioned Johnson as member & leader of the US Eugenics movement...just to highlight his political pedigree, and not to indict the whole Republicans or right-wingers as militant Eugenicists."

Where did i claim any different? As for terminology left or right wing over here are quite different to what they mean over there. Republicans would be tories over here. Centre right. Democrats would be like london labour (the blairite wing).'................

"What you (and others like yourself) fail or refuse to realize...is that the only ones who truly benefit by keeping people in the poverty bin......is big corporations/industry who have gained the favors from the Republican party through the years.........."

Just as well me (and others like me) have wise owls like you to point out our stupidity then eh? But just a wee point here. Wall street backed clinton did they not? Was she not tainted by wall street money? Was she not in favour of neo liberal globalism?

The reason i do not mention the republicans or the tories is because i know they do not have the working class interests in their manifesto's. But the ones who are SUPPOSED to have the working class interests at heart have abandoned them................

"these are the same entities who have thrived by the presence of undocumented workers...in the farm fields, the cellars of factories, sweat shops, etc......."

Exactly. Cheap exploitable workers. Globalism. Cheap holidays in other peoples miseries. As practised by neo liberal globalists of all political persuasions............

"these are the same migrants who are now being pegged as rapists, misfits, inferiors, incorrigibles, etc, by Trump & Co.....................but nothing punitative was ever done to the businesses who have exploited these people all along...why? because the Repubs didn't want that to happen."

I don't disagree with you. But i do wonder why posters like yourself give the democrats a free pass when they are just as guilty of everything you said above?..................

"Again, I am giving you the American perspective of it.....I don't know (nor do I care) how the politics differ in your country."

That IS you Platy eh? And that my friend is why you shall remain clueless. World events impact on all nations. Trump and his protectionism, Brexit, youth unemployment in southern europe, chinese expansionism, russia/ukraine etc etc etc.

But i take an interest in current events. What happens in shermanland affects my life over here in Scotland. Just as Brexit will affect shermanland. Just like the rise of populist/nationalism and socialism on mainland europe will affect america.

But keep the blinkers on.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 166
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History
DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/22/2018 9:27:02 AM
"That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What industries and what jobs are you talking about?"

>>>we could start with the coal industry. Over here, Chump promised on the campaign trail to bring back this dirty, polluting industry. It helped him win the presidency he didn't expect to win, but he never bothered to mention the real killer of coal...cheaper natural gas, from fracking in coal states that put american oil workers to work. most coal miners admit that even if america went back to coal burning energy plants in those low income neighborhoods full of the targets of eugenics, it wouldn't increase the jobs at the mines due to the automation in recent years.

"What constitutes a hate crime then? Who defines what a hate crime is?"

>>>for example, its when chump's "good nazis" do things like run over anti facist protestors. chump took quite the time to finally speak out against it, but obviously he didn't want to alienate his base.

"So have i to take from the article above that voters were to vote for something they probably don't give a toss about?"

>>>apparently, yes, american voters don't focus on minority issues, and that's perhaps one reason why millions more voted for HRC than for chump's message.

but back to this eugenics thing. Its true, england formed the whole eugenics thing, and like victorian graveyards formed into parks, the idea came to america. but, google "eugenics conservative", and ooooh boy...you'll find you only got half the story from those articles. American conservatives also adopted the eugenics idea. And kept it going with Jessie Helms. you'll even find an article about Trump and his cabinet keeping eugenics going. one example can be De Vos's focus on charter schools at the expense of public school funding...b/c only the "good folks" can afford charter schools and those "rest" have to settle. Vlad, you'd be appalled at how the republicants treat people here on welfare--last week chump went another round on people looking for welfare needing to have a job. of course, they lose day care benefits so its better to be on the dole, but american conservatives fear social services. a popular bumpersticker on trucks used to claim

Work harder! millions on welfare depend on you!

never mind that at the time, many on welfare were suburban moms who got the house in the divorce but not the paycheck to support it. when reagan ran, he told stories about the "strapping young buck" (another southern slur, its a black man who doesn't know his place) buying steak ahead of the working man in line who can only afford hamburger. all those oppressed working class you posted about, vlad, get the shaft over here from the Republicants. But, you did mention a shift in voting, and yes, after Democrat Jimmy Carter couldn't get the economy going (his secretary Paul Volker did get it up and running, and if carter had a second term...but reagan got it instead) and then there was the iranian hostage fiasco. so i can understand the working class saying, "hey, let's try someone new". reagan said that government was the problem, that he was going to bring things back to how they were, and he engaged in a southern strategy. the three prong approach worked. until recently, and Obama campaigned on "hope and change", and the working class voter believed. and he and she got General Motors jobs from disappearing from the midwest, which would not only have crippled things there, but also hurt our trade deficit. the republicans (mitt romney) wanted to let the auto industry fail.

anyhoo, the public library i use to post will shut down for the holidays, so let me just say merry holidays to all, and remind you of your grandmother's advice...if you can't play nice with others...

...play with yourself.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 167
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History
DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/23/2018 3:48:12 AM
GTO
"That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What industries and what jobs are you talking about?"

>>>we could start with the coal industry. Over here, Chump promised on the campaign trail to bring back this dirty, polluting industry. It helped him win the presidency he didn't expect to win, but he never bothered to mention the real killer of coal...cheaper natural gas, from fracking in coal states that put american oil workers to work. most coal miners admit that even if america went back to coal burning energy plants in those low income neighborhoods full of the targets of eugenics, it wouldn't increase the jobs at the mines due to the automation in recent years."

But we were not talking about coal miners. We were talking about trans geezers. You wrote...........

GTO
"so, if trangenders don't want to die in hate crimes, shouldn't they be as listened to as angry white men who just want to keep their jobs in industries that don't exist anymore and not transfer to new ones? who's to decide which complaints are more valid?"

"What constitutes a hate crime then? Who defines what a hate crime is?"

>>>for example, its when chump's "good nazis" do things like run over anti facist protestors. chump took quite the time to finally speak out against it, but obviously he didn't want to alienate his base."

No. He said there were good and bad on both sides. And as much as you might see something different there ARE bad cvnts on BOTH sides................


"So have i to take from the article above that voters were to vote for something they probably don't give a toss about?"

>>>apparently, yes, american voters don't focus on minority issues, and that's perhaps one reason why millions more voted for HRC than for chump's message."

And she STILL lost the election due to the way your voting system is. And again. Minority issues. Has it never crossed your mind that voters have other concerns? If you are skint and living in a trailer geezers dressing as women are not of great concern...............


"but back to this eugenics thing. Its true, england formed the whole eugenics thing, and like victorian graveyards formed into parks, the idea came to america. but, google "eugenics conservative", and ooooh boy...you'll find you only got half the story from those articles."

I know what conservative means. I also know what socialism means...............

"American conservatives also adopted the eugenics idea. And kept it going with Jessie Helms. you'll even find an article about Trump and his cabinet keeping eugenics going. one example can be De Vos's focus on charter schools at the expense of public school funding...b/c only the "good folks" can afford charter schools and those "rest" have to settle."

And was there not a planned parenting woman who was lauded by liberals? The one who had plenty abortion clinics in black areas?.............


"Vlad, you'd be appalled at how the republicants treat people here on welfare--last week chump went another round on people looking for welfare needing to have a job. of course, they lose day care benefits so its better to be on the dole, but american conservatives fear social services. a popular bumpersticker on trucks used to claim"

Yes i would be appalled. The same as i am appalled by the tories over here. Not just you but many posters on here just cannot admit the democrats offer fvck all to people.............

"Work harder! millions on welfare depend on you!"

Yep that message gets shouted loud and clear over here as well. But the welfare state is used to make citizens reliant on one political party or another..............

"never mind that at the time, many on welfare were suburban moms who got the house in the divorce but not the paycheck to support it. when reagan ran, he told stories about the "strapping young buck" (another southern slur, its a black man who doesn't know his place) buying steak ahead of the working man in line who can only afford hamburger."

Yep. The same as over here. Yet it resonates with voters. Until you try living on state handouts then you will know fvck all. Yet the 'socialist' labour party over here had some of the most draconian policies against the unemployed. Yet comfortably off middle class fvckers voted them in three times..................


"all those oppressed working class you posted about, vlad, get the shaft over here from the Republicants."

Take your blinkers off mate. They get shafted by the democrats as well................


"But, you did mention a shift in voting, and yes, after Democrat Jimmy Carter couldn't get the economy going (his secretary Paul Volker did get it up and running, and if carter had a second term...but reagan got it instead) and then there was the iranian hostage fiasco. so i can understand the working class saying, "hey, let's try someone new". reagan said that government was the problem, that he was going to bring things back to how they were, and he engaged in a southern strategy. the three prong approach worked."

Aye it would. Strange as it may be to some but working folk like having a decent income as well..............

"until recently, and Obama campaigned on "hope and change", and the working class voter believed. and he and she got General Motors jobs from disappearing from the midwest, which would not only have crippled things there, but also hurt our trade deficit. the republicans (mitt romney) wanted to let the auto industry fail."

Yet millions of white working class voters who voted for obama TWICE then voted for trump. But hey the 'racism' comfort blanket explains that eh?.............

"anyhoo, the public library i use to post will shut down for the holidays, so let me just say merry holidays to all, and remind you of your grandmother's advice...if you can't play nice with others...

...play with yourself."

And a very merry crimbo to yourself and the few posters that are left after the stalinist purges.
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 168
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History
DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/23/2018 7:38:53 AM
At Drac


Aw shucks. Shoot those poisoned arrows


I didn't know I was shooting any....maybe that is what I meant about not caring


Yet some sections of the working class abandoned them en-masse.


They lost them...but not "en masse"............HC still got 3 million more votes of the total count than Trump
The Democrats lost key voters in vulnerable states, that tipped the scale for Trump. Once again, I am not letting the democratic party off the hook, as they could have done a better job in dealing with the white middle class in poorer states.....but that doesn't explain the whole story.....because the Repubs manage to hoodwink a large portion of these people into thinking that they were the real deal...instead of HC.


We get quite a lot about sherman politics over here. I read michael moores blog just before the presidential election. He wrote that trump will win because the democrats embraced globalism at the expense of the american working class


You get your US political briefings from Moore?
Moore was not totally wrong ............the Democrats did neglect a portion of the working class.....however, the Repubs played it up sounding as though they were the saviors, and the Democrats would have driven them into utter poverty..........Under Obama, many jobs were saved through the bail-out system that was put in place, which saved General Motors....from 2008 to 2016, the unemployment rate dropped back to the mid to low single digits and the Dow Jones rose to unprecedented heights...and Big Business made more money than ever...............yet the Repubs were citing doom & misery, and that Obama only cared about illegal immigrants and people of his own race...which resonated with the target audience (those who largely couldn't think for themselves )

The thing about globalism...is that it was a Repub aspiration, in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union....HW Bush 1st termed it "new world order".........from which NAFTA was constructed and blessed by Repubs all along....but they were able to flip the tables on HC, and made her look as though she was indifferent to the American worker (when in fact the Repubs were even more indifferent) by embracing Globalism


But you just said that the democrat philosophy is the same no matter what. So what was expected from the democrats that they never offered working folk? And what were their narratives?


That which was expected was a miraculous turn-around, when "good" was not good enough!....Trump had been promising economic miracles during his campaign, which the Repubs knew it could not happen (and none of the other Repub candidates were making any bold promises on...because they knew it could not be done to those extremes).......Again, Trump employed the "art of the Hoodwink" to gain a following.

The Democrat Narrative was simple....we keep doing what has worked for the past 8 years that got us out of the recession, but what they failed to articulate is that certain jobs...in certain job sectors (like coal)....were never going to come back, and did not offer too many clear alternatives to the people who were eager to hear what the options were.

They opted to embrace the Trump rhetoric about how he was going to MAGA by creating floods of jobs, wealth, etc...and of course keep out immigrants who were "stealing" jobs from Americans


Ah so the democrats do not lie then? That's interesting


They both lie of course....but the people were lied to even more.... by somebody who is a master at lying
and is now bearing that very bitter-fruit


My point is you mentioned eugenics and i gave you some links to read about the creation of the eugenics movement


so what!
I can give you links that show how the Democrats gave rise to the KKK in the post civil war era....but what does have to do with present day politics?..............and if you are going to put up links about the creation of eugenics, make sure you include those who lean on the right as well!


Did they just wake up one morning and think 'ooooo I've just had a good idea'? Or were they influenced by other proponents of eugenics?


And who then influenced.....the "other proponents of eugenics"?
Was it perhaps Charles Darwin (based on the survival of the fittest)...or can we go back even further?
or do you just stop at those who lean left!


Just as well me (and others like me) have wise owls like you to point out our stupidity then eh? But just a wee point here. Wall street backed clinton did they not? Was she not tainted by wall street money? Was she not in favour of neo liberal globalism?


at least we all knew she was tainted by WS money...going into the election....while Trump hood-winked folks into thinking he was not part of the WS elite (which we now know he embraced), by playing the WS card against HC.

By the way, who did you expect WS to back?..........an idiot like Trump? ( as he was well known to them)....and besides, what presidents haven't been influenced by WS? ..... and they are now having fun, playing Trump through Mr Mnunchin


But the ones who are SUPPOSED to have the working class interests at heart have abandoned them.


Maybe in your country, but I'm not sure the word "abandoned" is a good description for the Democrats in the US.
The democrats "lost focus"...and overplayed their cards on Globalism, at a time when the public sentiment was soured against them..........but that doesn't mean that they abandoned their philosophy altogether.....but they needed to be reminded that they had to get back on track....sometimes you do that by voting them out of office.... but now that this has been done, many people have come realize that the alternative is not all that better, and in fact may be worse!

Its like the example of the neighborhood protector.....who has done a "good job" at guarding you against the thieves, swindlers, thugs..........but then for some reason, he veers off his path..........do you then embrace the lies of the same thieves that you were being protected against????.....or do you want to know what "went wrong" with your protector, and why he veered off track....and do what you need to do to steer him back?


But i do wonder why posters like yourself give the democrats a free pass when they are just as guilty of everything you said above?..................


they didn't get a free pass...guilty or not, they paid a price in the 2016 election (deserved or not)
But if they have gotten a pass....it is because the alternative is but a well crafted Fraud mirage concocted by a Party and leader that is far more poisonous.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 169
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History
DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/23/2018 9:32:40 AM
LeFou
"At Drac
Aw shucks. Shoot those poisoned arrows
I didn't know I was shooting any....maybe that is what I meant about not caring"

It was just one of our quaint expressions we sometimes use over here............

"Yet some sections of the working class abandoned them en-masse.

They lost them...but not "en masse"............HC still got 3 million more votes of the total count than Trump
The Democrats lost key voters in vulnerable states, that tipped the scale for Trump. Once again, I am not letting the democratic party off the hook, as they could have done a better job in dealing with the white middle class in poorer states.....but that doesn't explain the whole story.....because the Repubs manage to hoodwink a large portion of these people into thinking that they were the real deal...instead of HC."

So voters in what we get told over here are rust belt states delivered a well deserved bloody nose to those who took their votes for granted then? Just maybe political parties over there may pay a bit more attention to voters? Surely that is a good thing is it not?..............

"We get quite a lot about sherman politics over here. I read michael moores blog just before the presidential election. He wrote that trump will win because the democrats embraced globalism at the expense of the american working class

You get your US political briefings from Moore?"

Nope. His was just one link that showed up on google..............

"Moore was not totally wrong ............the Democrats did neglect a portion of the working class.....however, the Repubs played it up sounding as though they were the saviors, and the Democrats would have driven them into utter poverty.........."

And that neglect came back and bit them on the arse. So again some good may come from the election result do you not think?.............

"Under Obama, many jobs were saved through the bail-out system that was put in place, which saved General Motors....from 2008 to 2016, the unemployment rate dropped back to the mid to low single digits and the Dow Jones rose to unprecedented heights...and Big Business made more money than ever...............yet the Repubs were citing doom & misery, and that Obama only cared about illegal immigrants and people of his own race...which resonated with the target audience (those who largely couldn't think for themselves )"

See the problem i have with the above is obama is now taking a slap from political commentators for being a major disappointment. Obviously clinton just did not appeal to sections of american workers...............

"The thing about globalism...is that it was a Repub aspiration, in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union....HW Bush 1st termed it "new world order".........from which NAFTA was constructed and blessed by Repubs all along....but they were able to flip the tables on HC, and made her look as though she was indifferent to the American worker (when in fact the Repubs were even more indifferent) by embracing Globalism"

Big business and cheap exploited labour go hand in hand around the world. But millions are now using their votes in protest...............

"But you just said that the democrat philosophy is the same no matter what. So what was expected from the democrats that they never offered working folk? And what were their narratives?

That which was expected was a miraculous turn-around, when "good" was not good enough!....Trump had been promising economic miracles during his campaign, which the Repubs knew it could not happen (and none of the other Repub candidates were making any bold promises on...because they knew it could not be done to those extremes).......Again, Trump employed the "art of the Hoodwink" to gain a following."

Personally i think a large part of the voting poor had nothing to lose by voting for trump. So nothing will change for them. Except politicians may have to start listening to citizens and their views............

"The Democrat Narrative was simple....we keep doing what has worked for the past 8 years that got us out of the recession, but what they failed to articulate is that certain jobs...in certain job sectors (like coal)....were never going to come back, and did not offer too many clear alternatives to the people who were eager to hear what the options were."

But if it worked then citizens would not have voted the way they did. So its obvious the last eight years you speak off never benefited everyone................

"They opted to embrace the Trump rhetoric about how he was going to MAGA by creating floods of jobs, wealth, etc...and of course keep out immigrants who were "stealing" jobs from Americans"

Again i think if you had nothing in the first place then why not piss off politicians who just expected you to vote the same old same old?...................

"Ah so the democrats do not lie then? That's interesting
They both lie of course....but the people were lied to even more.... by somebody who is a master at lying
and is now bearing that very bitter-fruit"

Then why not cast your vote for the best liar?................

"My point is you mentioned eugenics and i gave you some links to read about the creation of the eugenics movement
so what!
I can give you links that show how the Democrats gave rise to the KKK in the post civil war era....but what does have to do with present day politics?..............and if you are going to put up links about the creation of eugenics, make sure you include those who lean on the right as well!"

It was you who mentioned eugenics. The links i put up are from a liberal newspaper, the in house magazine of a centre left political party and the tory in house magazine. I also mentioned churchills beliefs in eugenics.............

"Did they just wake up one morning and think 'ooooo I've just had a good idea'? Or were they influenced by other proponents of eugenics?

And who then influenced.....the "other proponents of eugenics"?
Was it perhaps Charles Darwin (based on the survival of the fittest)...or can we go back even further?
or do you just stop at those who lean left!"

Yes it was a blood relative of darwin who started the eugenics movement the fabian society embraced. Again i never wrote the articles. Most uk prime ministers have a link to the fabian society. As for 'lean left' it is just part of history that the fabians have in their history...............

"Just as well me (and others like me) have wise owls like you to point out our stupidity then eh? But just a wee point here. Wall street backed clinton did they not? Was she not tainted by wall street money? Was she not in favour of neo liberal globalism?
at least we all knew she was tainted by WS money...going into the election....while Trump hood-winked folks into thinking he was not part of the WS elite (which we now know he embraced), by playing the WS card against HC."

I have noticed many posters on here do not hold many of their fellow citizens in high esteem. Maybe if the high horse is climbed down from then a better understanding of the lives of their fellow citizens might be learned. Just a thought................

"By the way, who did you expect WS to back?..........an idiot like Trump? ( as he was well known to them)....and besides, what presidents haven't been influenced by WS? ..... and they are now having fun, playing Trump through Mr Mnunchin"

And trump voters are having fun watching intolerant illiberal liberals going garrity..............

"But the ones who are SUPPOSED to have the working class interests at heart have abandoned them.

Maybe in your country, but I'm not sure the word "abandoned" is a good description for the Democrats in the US.
The democrats "lost focus"...and overplayed their cards on Globalism, at a time when the public sentiment was soured against them..........but that doesn't mean that they abandoned their philosophy altogether.....but they needed to be reminded that they had to get back on track....sometimes you do that by voting them out of office.... but now that this has been done, many people have come realize that the alternative is not all that better, and in fact may be worse!"

Lost focus? Is that the acceptable terminology for abandoned?...............

"Its like the example of the neighborhood protector.....who has done a "good job" at guarding you against the thieves, swindlers, thugs..........but then for some reason, he veers off his path..........do you then embrace the lies of the same thieves that you were being protected against????.....or do you want to know what "went wrong" with your protector, and why he veered off track....and do what you need to do to steer him back?"

You mean like using your vote to piss people off? Maybe next time the democrats will listen to voters concerns then eh?.................

"But i do wonder why posters like yourself give the democrats a free pass when they are just as guilty of everything you said above?..................

they didn't get a free pass...guilty or not, they paid a price in the 2016 election (deserved or not)
But if they have gotten a pass....it is because the alternative is but a well crafted Fraud mirage concocted by a Party and leader that is far more poisonous."

Who's lies were better than the democrats? Maybe they will lie a bit better next time then eh?

Ps what's your opinion of that Beto O'Rourke geezer?
 platitude545
Joined: 10/2/2018
Msg: 170
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History
DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/23/2018 12:59:27 PM
Geeze vlad you claim lefou is me and then call me clueless. I'll take the insult though...lefou is obviously highly intelligent and aware of what is going on. Note, despite having 2773 profiles here, i only use one at a time. So long as this one lasts, i will only be platy. :-)
 BBEisBack
Joined: 9/16/2015
Msg: 171
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History
DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/23/2018 3:44:02 PM

I've only been on these forums for several weeks, so I really don't know too much about anybody else's themes .....


Sure you have been here only a few weeks, and are not a retreaded old poster.

We believe that as much as we believe you're a 22 yo male.
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 172
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History
DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/23/2018 7:58:05 PM
to Drac


So voters in what we get told over here are rust belt states delivered a well deserved bloody nose to those who took their votes for granted then?


perhaps, yes!


Just maybe political parties over there may pay a bit more attention to voters?


It may not be enough for the parties to just "pay attention".........they need to be able to connect with them (share vibes, so to speak)........the truth is secondary.....just look at Trump's most ardent followers....they overlook his lies because of his persona...............the Democrtas however, are not cached to conduct themselves as Trump did; so they actually have to "work" for their votes.


Surely that is a good thing is it not?..............


paying attention to voter's needs is always a good thing......but when you actually fabricate mumbo-jumbo and package in such a way that is palatable to the needs/wants of certain voters......and make these voter(s) believe it necessary inspite of themselves............then it can be a dangerous thing...because then you cross over into cultism.


So again some good may come from the election result do you not think?.............


The good result I've seen was in the mid-term election results of this year.........when a record number of voters turned out on what seem to be a referendum on Trump himself...........The democrats gained a sizable number of seats in the house of Reps.......they did not win the Senate but only because most of the races were held in the deep red states...but the good thing that was evident, is that the Repubs had to fight for nearly every seat...as each race was hotly contested.
This should no doubt bode well for the Democrats in 2020....when many of the senate seats to be had will be in Bluer states

a good chunk of voters (independents, moderate Repubs) finally realized that they were sold a "false bill of goods"...hands down by Trump...........this was seen mainly in states like Pennsylvania, Michigan & Wisconsin, when the shift tilted in favor of the Democrats again


So its obvious the last eight years you speak off never benefited everyone


Tell me.....what government...what political party....in what country, ....ever enacts policy, or laws that always "benefit everyone"?

Different parties have different "target" groups..........the repubs have big Business, who they give breaks with the hope that they will create job opportunities to the masses (which doesn't always work out that way).........the Democrats have the working class; therefore, what you do for one group may not always benefit the other.....The Democrats may have placed too much hope on Globalism...as the best remedy for prosperity.....as they may have figured that, if one job sector disappears, another will emerge to take its place...but this doesn't always work out that way either!

The opposing party may then engage in political subterfuge.....making the disenfrachised believe that they've gotten a raw deal (real or perceived)....from the ruling party's mandates....just to position themselves to capture more votes in the next election...hence the game of political pawns


It was you who mentioned eugenics.


I mentioned it to give some prospective about the man who helped craft racist immigration laws....Johnson was Republican, and Eugenics appealed to him just as much as anybody on the "left" who championed that concept....such that he actually took it to a higher level by enacting legislation based on these principles


I have noticed many posters on here do not hold many of their fellow citizens in high esteem. Maybe if the high horse is climbed down from then a better understanding of the lives of their fellow citizens might be learned. Just a thought


I have no problem accepting a person's decision to vote for the Repubs, if their views are fully aligned with that political ideology top to bottom............but not if they are voting just to jump on a bandwagon, created by political jingo-ism.


And trump voters are having fun watching intolerant illiberal liberals going garrity


I do not really know what an "intolerant illiberal liberal" is......maybe this species is very common in your country.
What most liberals here are intolerant of .....is the continued voter suppression of the left by the far right....social injustices on all levels.........exploitation of the masses by big industry.

I am not saying that the liberal/left wing has all the answers, I know they don't........but the ones who have shown to be "intolerant" in the US.....are the extremists on the right!


You mean like using your vote to piss people off? Maybe next time the democrats will listen to voters concerns then


yes, like a rude awakening...........unless the others you voted in ( who promised you those Utopian benefits) have made irreparable harms to society...........as Trump is close to doing!


Who's lies were better than the democrats? Maybe they will lie a bit better next time then eh?


In order to lie better than Trump.....you have to first be a pathologic liar (blurring the boundaries between truth & lies)...and then go from there! ............. I don;t think the democrats can out-do the Repubs on that arena!


Ps what's your opinion of that Beto O'Rourke geezer?


Beto has emerged as a political "pop-star" this year.........he seems to have the charisma, and the down-to-earth persona....all in one

He does not come from money....and is able to relate to working class & poor people
He lost his bid for senate but did very well in a "red" state....against a well supported Ted Cruz, but gave Cruz a tough battle.

I think he is a bit too far to the left......and it would not be wise for him to run for the presidency yet.
I heard his name considered for the democratic ticket along with Joe Biden for 2020
That would be very interesting...........and worrisome for the Repubs
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 173
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/24/2018 4:34:14 AM
LeFou
"Beto has emerged as a political "pop-star" this year.........he seems to have the charisma, and the down-to-earth persona....all in one

He does not come from money....and is able to relate to working class & poor people. He lost his bid for senate but did very well in a "red" state....against a well supported Ted Cruz, but gave Cruz a tough battle.

I think he is a bit too far to the left......and it would not be wise for him to run for the presidency yet. I heard his name considered for the democratic ticket along with Joe Biden for 2020
That would be very interesting...........and worrisome for the Repubs"

Is he really considered far left? Again far left and far right are different over here. I think O'Rourke would be classed as centre left over here.

We seen a fair wee bit about him before the elections that yous just had.

But there was an article about O'Rourke in the guardian which rips him to shreds...............

"Beto O'Rourke is the new Obama. And that's the last thing we need

Betomania may have befallen Washington elites, but replicating an Obama presidency would be a tragedy, from healthcare policy to fossil fuel production.

Now, he is Washington’s version of Elvis Presley on Ed Sullivan, only the screaming teeny-boppers are Beltway politicos: one rainmaker touted him as “Obama, but white”, a Wall Street-funded group called Third Way declared that “we are big Beto fans” and a former Obama aide penned an entire love letter touting O’Rourke 2020, without even once mentioning where the Texas congressman stands on a single legislative issue.

Beto O’Rourke frequently voted for Republican legislation, analysis reveals

Perhaps the fuzziness around O’Rourke’s political positions isn’t a mistake. Maybe it is designed to obscure facts about his record that may prove to be inconvenient in a Democratic primary.

After all, this is a lawmaker who abruptly backed off unequivocally supporting Medicare for All, aligned himself with the party’s Wall Street faction, voted to gut financial regulations, supported Republican-crafted tax cuts, boosted the fossil fuel industry – and then broke his own pledge to reject donations from oil and gas executives.

A liberal heartthrob who votes with Republicans

The 46-year-old O’Rourke has racked up a voting record helping Republicans ram parts of their agenda through the Congress.

In an era of growing economic inequality, O’Rourke has split with the majority of his party to vote for Republican initiatives to weaken Wall Street regulations and accelerate bank mergers – and he once voted for a Republican bill that Democratic legislators said was designed to block the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau’s from combatting racially discriminatory lending.

He also voted for a key part of Donald Trump’s so-called deportation force.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/22/beto-orourke-voting-record-2020-election-democrats

There are many links in the article to his backing the republicans on policy. If he is the future for american politics then i think yous are well and truly donald ducked.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 174
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/24/2018 4:36:40 AM
Platy
"Geeze vlad you claim lefou is me and then call me clueless. I'll take the insult though...lefou is obviously highly intelligent and aware of what is going on. Note, despite having 2773 profiles here, i only use one at a time. So long as this one lasts, i will only be platy. :-)"

Now now platy. There was a couple of comments LeFou made regarding not caring what happens politically over here. Just like thee.

And nope i never meant you were clueless in the manner you think i said it. I meant you were clueless about events outside of shermanland. Which you admit too. And that's fair play.

But i do think ignoring world political events and the consequences of them is a mistake. Neo liberalism and globalism has unleashed political genies out of the bottle which will be hard to control.

One prime example being the yellow vest protests in france. The odious little twat macron is a prime example of neo liberal globalism. The french have a fantastic record for taking to the streets in protests.

This below caused much mirth for working class europeans.................

"French Budget Minister Gerald Darmanin, 36, was trying to urge his audience to show compassion for protesters across France who have been blocking roads since last weekend to protest rising fuel costs and low living standards.

The protests have been led by mostly rural or small-town voters wearing high-visibility "yellow vests" who are fed up with rising fuel prices and the policies of unpopular President Emmanuel Macron.

"If we don't want a domestic Brexit... we need to take on board and not only explain, but listen and understand, what it's like to live on 950 euros ($1,100) a month when the bill for a Parisian restaurant is around 200 euros when you invite someone out and you don't take wine," Darmanin said.

"Who can believe that we live in the same society?" he added, calling on politicians to "listen and hear the cultural and social distress, which is not just about purchasing power."

The remark about a meal for two without wine costing 200 euros -- more than double the cost of an average dinner in most Parisian brasseries -- immediately sparked online outrage.

"It's difficult to show more clearly his disconnect with the average French person, even a Parisian" said an article in the Marianne magazine.

The price of 100 euros per person without wine would be typical in one of the Michelin-starred eateries favoured by high-rollers and top politicians in Paris, the magazine explained.

Darmanin is generally considered one of the most skilled communicators in Macron's centrist government, which he joined last year from the right-wing Republicans party.

He is also one of few members of the cabinet to have solid working-class credentials as the son of a bar manager and cleaning lady from a small town in northern France.*"

https://www.thelocal.fr/20181123/french-budget-ministers-expensive-taste-in-paris-restaurants-leaves-sour-taste-in-france

*which just goes to show that once a politician, no matter which political party, gets their snout into the trough reality vanishes.

Anyway. The Drac is getting ready to go and hit the boozer for a pre crimbo drink.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 175
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DEMOCRATS TAKE THE HOUSE. THE END OF TRUMP?
Posted: 12/24/2018 12:15:01 PM
platitude wrote:
There of course is always some sort of sliver of truth in your Dumbisms, for the wealthy elites....especially under Trump....certainly seem to be setting the agenda. In the end though, they are all going to end up at the end of a Rope if things get as bad as they possibly might under their agendas.
I don't know why it is so hard to see, or believe, that it's the "wealthy elites" that own both parties. I mean, you, as well as other anti-Trumpians, seem to believe it's only Trump, or the GOP, that's run by moneyed interests. Who is "setting the agenda" on the Dem side? Moneyed interests. Anyone who believes something like say, Obamacare, wasn't designed solely within the dictates of "wealthy elites," ..maybe a different set of "wealthy elites" from the GOP's - is naive or blinded by partisan politics. BOTH sides are run by, solely for the benefit of "wealthy elites." Just different sets of wealthy elites. And the sooner Americans realize that, the better our politics would probably become. Instead it's just both sides pointing fingers that the other is the mouthpiece of "wealthy elites." They just drop the red meat of race, guns, god, abortion, etc. etc. etc. and watch the back and forth, like a tennis match.

The net net is, the things BOTH sides of the wealthy elites agree on, wars, corporate profits, neutering of labor, etc. etc. are kept out of the national discussion.

Participating on traditional partisan politics is exactly the game the elites want us to play.
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