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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?      Home login  
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 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
Msg: 176
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? Page 8 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
^The Democratic party is fracturing and is quite glorious to watch! Those damn intersections can be so annoying when you play identity politics.


Funny part is...they think Americans are too stupid to see their sudden desire for open borders and their vote today in the House to allow illegal immigrants to vote!

We have #Blexit (black exit from the Dem plantation) and now Omar has just inspired #Jexodus (Jewish exodus from the Dem party)

Now they see the illegal immigrant vote as they're only hope of gaining power! Good thing the Republicans have the Senate and the veto. :)
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/9/2019 2:20:00 AM
Million
"^The Democratic party is fracturing and is quite glorious to watch! Those damn intersections can be so annoying when you play identity politics.

Funny part is...they think Americans are too stupid to see their sudden desire for open borders and their vote today in the House to allow illegal immigrants to vote!

We have #Blexit (black exit from the Dem plantation) and now Omar has just inspired #Jexodus (Jewish exodus from the Dem party)

Now they see the illegal immigrant vote as they're only hope of gaining power! Good thing the Republicans have the Senate and the veto. :)"


The tired old political parties who USED to represent the working class have died out. From what I'm reading over here your democrats are much like london labour over here.

The Scottish National Party wiped out Scottish labour for standing shoulder to shoulder with the hated tories during the independence referendum.

As for brexit most london labour party members and mp's voted remain. But the core VOTERS went for brexit.

I think london labour and the democrats are both suffering from the illusion that folk will vote for them because of what they USED to be.

An example over here is the 16 year old muslim lassie who went to become a daesh mattress. She now wants to come back to the uk. She was asked about the Manchester bombing atrocity.

She in her mind justified it. The vast majority of the uk has said fvck her. She made her bed now lie in it.

Except for london labour who say she should come back to the uk.

Out of touch? Just a tad.

Anyway a plague on ALL their houses.
 flowersinthelake
Joined: 5/11/2018
Msg: 178
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/9/2019 6:09:16 AM
...she puts stodgy old farts, in their place.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/9/2019 6:28:55 AM
Flowers
"...she puts stodgy old farts, in their place."

Now that WOULD be a point if it was not a comment that is loaded with contempt. In their place? Is that the back off the bus? Is it doffing your cap?

What exactly is THEIR place?

Have they to shut up because there is a new sheriff in town? What place have they to go into?

See that comes across as arrogant and intolerant. (Or is intolerance ok when its against a political rival?)

Maybe she is spouting off delusional rubbish? Lots of democrat voters will not like her comments.

Which goes back to what i said. Politics has changed big time. It is eventually becoming working class against entitled liberal dafties.

My colours are nailed well to the mast.
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/9/2019 7:11:43 AM
"she puts stodgy old farts, in their place."

She does do that to Nancy Pelosi, doesn't she? Lol



Vlad...

"An example over here is the 16 year old muslim lassie who went to become a daesh mattress. She now wants to come back to the uk. She was asked about the Manchester bombing atrocity."



We got one of those, too!

"20-Year-Old Alabama College Student Fled Home to Join ISIS, Had a Baby — and Now Wants to Come Back"


https://people.com/politics/hoda-muthana-isis-bride-wants-to-return-united-states/


She would have been better off using POF to find a man! :)
 kavapaw22
Joined: 10/3/2018
Msg: 181
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/9/2019 12:42:54 PM
****and now Omar has just inspired #Jexodus (Jewish exodus from the Dem party)***
Yes but where do you go if you are looking for a party who has integrity and who values human dignity?
 Million_Reasons
Joined: 10/23/2018
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/9/2019 2:05:01 PM
^Wrong question.


 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 183
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/9/2019 10:18:49 PM
@ SS45.......msg 172 & 173


Well first of all, the PIIE was started, and I’d imagine still underwritten by billionaire neoliberal financier Pete Peterson’s estate. The same guy who wanted to fix our deficit problems by gutting Medicare and Social Securty


Yes, the very same things that Trump (while being prodded by ex-speaker Paul Ryan & Senate maj McConnell) was gunning for...........irrespective of what he said on the campaign trail.


I will take PIIE conclusions with a grain of salt as I doubt any substantive papers opposing the neoliberal global consensus is allowed at his site.


So you are discounting what PIIE says............because they won't allow any counter arguments at their site???.....Well, how many slanted (left or right) publications allow opposing view-points on their respective sites?...........Hence, it sounds to me that you could be throwing the baby out with the bath-water..........a better way to tackle this would be for somebody to at least cross-reference what they say, against those of another publication....which I haven't been able to see.


Not to say I have not been guilty of citing Billionaires' think tank sites myself, but it does make my point that it’s increasingly billionaire financiers – on both sides – who are shaping our arguments along the lines they want us to argue about.


You could perhaps be losing sight of the fact...that we live in a capitalistic world (especially in the wake of the now defunct USSR)...........and its always been the case, that those who control much of the wealth.....will be shaping the narratives.........with or with trade agreements in place!...............so, in order for you to create a "new" business paradigm to argue for......you have to in some way be able to control or manipulate enough wealth..........Like the old USSR did at one time, with the communist narrative was one in which only the state controlled the wealth.......and even in China (where you have a hybrid state & private system in place) that has enough clout to shape a certain business narrative within their borders


In the end…..the TPP is overwhelmingly a pro-corporate and pro-investor trade pact. We need to go the opposite way.


so if we go anti-corporate....and anti-investor, then what will we have?..........My guess is that you'll have corporations that will cease to be corporations, and become something else (if they can).....lay off 1000's of workers (this pre-supposes that they haven't yet been fully automated)...because it won't pay for them to manufacture a product that is unaffordable within these borders.............and you will have the value of the stock drop significantly


It gives corporations and investors the power to sue governments that want to pass regulatory laws.


really?........do you really see China ( part of the TPP) as a country that will allow itself to be sued by corporations and investors?..........for whatever reason!


Corporations and bankers become more powerful than governments even more than now.


Only if the encoded statutes allow for it to happen


And in the U.S., even supporters concede it would lead to more working class jobs sent offshore.


Some may........but if you craft a trade agreement such that there are no protectionist practices among its members...then you will see a level playing field that will result in the country who is able to make a product more efficiently and less costly as the "leader of the pack".............and as far as losing "working class" jobs.....we are talking about what?.....many working class jobs were lost due to automation (which is now the cheapest way to manufacture things) long ago.............the next best thing is to have your products made in a country where you pay the workers no more than $5/hr...and without benefits.................and without being part of a trade partnership of some type.....this is exactly the venue that will be sought for by big industries



And for the ”reality check:”
Because the objective of the TPP negotiations is to allow US firms and workers to do more of what they are most competitive at, raising productivity, wages, and profits at home,
I think again, this is code-speak for “maximum profits,” really.


But isn't this what your "disruptor" has already done by giving the top 1% a tax break?...........he is allowing them to take more profits ( and more share-holder dividens, etc)....without these firms ever making any kind of effort or incentive to give it back to the workers....in other words, he's given them a profitable gift.........in exchange for their political contributions


There is no mention, anywhere, in the piece about a net increasing jobs in the U.S., much less what type of job we gain (working class vs. white collar).


Your "net increase" in domestic jobs will be contingent on your being able to manufacture efficiently


And “raising productivity,” of course, can be construed to mean offshoring factories, laying off workers, increasing immigration, etc. etc.et c.


You posted a quote from the PIIE article in the "reality check" paragraph.......and if you read the last 2 words in your posted sentence.......you will read "at home"..............At home...means inside the USA...and this is what the point was all about!


Of course, a slave wage worker in an authoritarian country, toiling in an unregulated factory, is more “productive” than a free, U.S. worker with protections.


But this ^ won't be the case.....if you have crafted an agreement with a level playing field that has checks & balances...........if China or Vietnam wants to pay slave wages..........then they will be charged a tariff (that is built into the trade agreement...triggered by the worker pay inequality by the member country in question), that will negate their unfair advantage....like a referee calling a foul!


I don’t pretend to understand all the “balance” measurements, but I think this is all elite-speak to support their further desires of big capital to align the world’s societies, goverments, and cultures to march in lockstep with their desires for maximum profits. I oppose that.


there is no question that big Corp want hegemoney over the world's societies...........but it is incumbent upon competent leadership (which we currently do not have), to craft an agreement which will have some benefit for big enterprise, but at the same time..........not to abuse their power!

Remember that at the turn of the 20th century......we had no worker's rights in the USA........hence, we had big industry paying substandard wages (to immigrants), unsafe work environment....no benefits.........no child labor laws...and no regulations on hazard waste & pollutants.........................until the leaders realized that this could not stand....and henceforth, the birth of labor unions, etc...........Big industry cried foul.......but they did not suffer much when all was said & done.........they still turned a handsome profit!

The same would apply to any trade agreements


I suppose Trump et. al, may believe their time is short, possibly only 1 term…even 4 years is short, and with the Dems roaring back,


If Trump would have taken the time to put some thought into what he wanted to achieve....instead of doing this haphazardly (like trying to yank away Obamacare w/o a suitable replacement...enacting a tax law that was a pretext for a "give-away" to the rich).........there wouldn't have been a TIDAL wave of Dems "roaring back", and he'd likely still have both houses!.....notwithstanding what his own personal issues & suspicion of election tampering by Russia.......most reasonable people are just chit-scared about what this dumb wild -a$$ is going to do!


I do believe someoe like Pence – more a neoliberal than Trump, more of a cookie cutter corporate bootlicker – would abandon all the trade and immigration stuff – because those are two biggies that big business definitely DOESN’T the GOP to push because they threaten profits and strengthen labor in the U.S.


And he should abandon it...because this immigration & trade stuff should be bipartisan crafted and passed...that way, neither party will try to tamper with it...or undo it, when either one or the other is in power!


Not to mention direct government subsidy to Sony, et. al. Much of Asia’s rise was due to artificial reasons having nothing to do with the “high” cost of U.S. labor. And once U.S. factories and supply infrastructure was shuttered due to these artificial, government-designed factors, of course it is more expensive to manufacture in the U.S.


then why didn't we subside Zenith (or magnavox)..............like we subsidize Agri (and some other sectors).....or we could have given them low interest loans (like we did to save GM)............if this was the key to maintain our edge!

Who do you blame for that?...............or is it because we didn't have a trade-agreement with Japan/Korea that would have prevented such unfair practices!



Sure. I don’t defend Trump’s methods in implementing tariffs; however with the time stipulations I noted above, and knowing Congress (Dems AND GOP) opposes common sense trade policy,



again, its not common sense trade policy they oppose............its haphazard unpredictable policy that they dislike....one in which is likley contributing to the widening trade deficit as we speak!


But, in the end, I support “willy nilly” over status quo, on trade. Just like the Dems settled on Ocare.


The sad thing...is that it doesn't have to be status quo on trade (or anything else)......if he had any patience & common sense!


I think Trump’s inference was his “jobs” were “good” jobs, which in Trump’s followers’ world, means manufacturing, mining, etc. etc. Not service.


Trump is taking credit for ALL jobs being created on a monthly basis (as reported by Fed).....he is not saying or has ever said that it is only the manufacturing jobs that he considers real jobs.

'''''''''''''''Baldwin says:


One of the challenges to chump's claim about trade deficits is, that he only counts goods, not oil or services being sold out of america. we may produce less "things", but we've become a net oil exporter for the first time since i think the 1950's or earlier. Generally speaking, red states may make more consumer goods, and blue states may offer more services, but when you include services (not as easy to count as objects), the deficit decreases. also what has raised the deficit is consumer confidence--there's a rich man in the white house, unemployment is low, so people feel its time to spend again.


^ good point..............and plus, the economies of Europe and even China are not as good as ours......and more Americans are buying stuff made outside the US (as well as that made in the US)...because they can....and that also raises the trade deficit.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/11/2019 8:47:05 AM
LFG wrote:
Yes, the very same things that Trump (while being prodded by ex-speaker Paul Ryan & Senate maj McConnell) was gunning for...........irrespective of what he said on the campaign trail.
Yes, and his recent budget reflects that. It will be interesting to see what kinda pushback he gets from his core supporters (many of who are likely on SS/Medicare/Disability). That budget is pretty mind blowing, really. Cut everything except the military. Sheesh. A recipe for social unrest, in my view. It would be different if his plan was producing “jobs coming back” from offshore, or other "good jobs" but I think that will likely not happen for reasons we have already discussed. (Part of that reason is I think he will eventually cave on the trade/tariff stuff).

Guess he has to give the Ryan/McConnell USCOC wing another gift, after all, historic tax cut giveaway he gave them last year is pretty much petering out. That’s deregulated capitalism folks…feed the monster. In this case, feed it the middle class. But in the end, it’s more “disruption,” maybe not the disruption his core supporters wanted, but disruption nonetheless…which still may be better than the slow drip-drip-drip of conventional GOP/Dem pols which is resulting on middle/working class dissolution anyways…just slower.


So you are discounting what PIIE says............because they won't allow any counter arguments at their site???.....Well, how many slanted (left or right) publications allow opposing view-points on their respective sites?
I don’t discount it..it is interesting to read the opinions…I read right-wing stuff all the time..more than left wing stuff. But that’s what think tanks do..is to publish “academic” papers that support the positions they support. Even left wing think tanks. They may publish token opposition papers, like Fox News has a few token libs on, and CNN vice versa, but they are what they are. And for billionaire Peterson, IIRC he is the one who complains about our trade partners’ manipulating currencies, and I do agree with him on that. But in the end, he pushes the idea that SS/Medicare and other social safety nets are the problem, and, afaik, he doesn’t address the massive amount of tax evasion and loopholes that bleed revenue. Not to mention the military empire that costs billions more. Ya, it’s easy to sit on your gold plated toilet and consider it’s all those worthless folks on SS, Pete, right!? Let them eat cake!! And btw, we can get that cake cheaper from China!!


You could perhaps be losing sight of the fact...that we live in a capitalistic world (especially in the wake of the now defunct USSR)...........and its always been the case, that those who control much of the wealth.....will be shaping the narratives.........with or with trade agreements in place!
Yes I agree. Believe it or not, I’m not a card carrying Marxist…I do believe in capitalism as I think it’s the best “imperfect” solution to balance out the needs, frailties and dangers inherent in anything else. It provides an outlet for those with sociopathic tendencies, and keeps them out of government where they would be more dangerous (Trump is a good example lol) But it needs to be balanced, and have a loyal opposition to make sure benefits ar e spread reasonably equitably. Much like government, the private sector has to be watched closely and opposed. It isn’t now, it’s gotten too powerful. The pendulum needs to swing back in favor of government, consumers, and labor. I don’t think anyone can argue that business/billionaires/finance have more power over all of human existence since the 1920’s – the last time we allowed them such leeway. Government and media, the traditional watchdogs, are now their enablers and cheerleaders.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/11/2019 9:24:12 AM
"It is eventually becoming working class against entitled liberal dafties."

>>>ironically, the new liberal dafties are, in fact, working for the working class...but not necessarily the white male ones. they'll work for equal pay for women, rights for single moms, etc, and the result may be the working class male has to compete with his sister. and then there will be the non-whites as well, clamouring for their piece of the job market until automation truly takes over everything. on a side note, its predicted in 3 decades, the internet will Balkanize. Dictatorships like China will have their own censored version behind firewalls, and of course here our Facebook only shows us the internet we are interested in seeing. Net Neutrality may not be the only problem for users and business alike--we may create our own neighborhoods on the net and not know what anyone else is thinking or feeling.

"so if we go anti-corporate....and anti-investor, then what will we have?"

>>>the only thing left is, government runs everything. banks are a necessary evil in a capitalist society. a little research can find claims of big banks sponsoring wars, and a bit of Jewish conspiracy thrown in. maybe the government will go after monopolies again. meanwhile, funny fact about those VCR's--they beat Betamax b/c Sony wouldn't allow XXX movies. you can run the P/E ratios all you want, but human nature steps in.

and yes, SS454, chump's new budget is mindblowing--its a throw back to the reagan era. space force will become SDI, there are already neocons in the foriegn policy, and we have a trickle down economics tax cut for the rich. but do the trumpanzees understand enough about economics to see it? maybe chump will have to wave the american flag (rather than sexually assault it) to get the patriotic to ask no questions of the man behind the curtain.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/11/2019 2:27:32 PM
LFG:
so if we go anti-corporate....and anti-investor, then what will we have?
There is a middle ground…we’ve accomplished that in the past.


really?........do you really see China ( part of the TPP) as a country that will allow itself to be sued by corporations and investors?..........for whatever reason!
Yes - under the “ISDS” provision of the TPP..it’s a private tribunal to decide trade cases. It takes those decisions away from each country, thus these countries lose the power to make regulatory laws themselves. Powerful nations/corporations have the means to raise trade challenges/lawsuits, while poorer/smaller countries don’t have the means to raise or defend these cases. The rights of investors to make profits rule the day.

Citizens of countries no longer have the power to enact regulations themselves for their own country. It’s removed to global bodies with unelected technocrats that have only concerns about efficiency, profitability and growth of multinational corporations and banks. It’s one reason for Brexit. At least someone gets it!

And China isn’t in the TPP. One reason d’etre for the TPP is to counter the rise and power of China. What the TPP amouts to is a bad trade agreement, pushed to counter the result of another bad trade agreement ….the one that empowered the rise of China. j

Instead of passing the TPP to balance China's growth, I’m willing to just sit back, light one up, and watch the monster we have created with China. Already starting to see the dangers, with the Huawei/5G spying problem. The fact that we’re now fretting about China using their industrial prowess for spying ( prowess that WE handed over to them) is kinda funny, really, to us long time anti-free traders. Schadenfreude. Maybe then it will show the folly of giving away decades worth of industrial infrastructure for the sake of short term profits. It’s kinda fun to watch the West worry about China possibly having the power to dictate global communications technology cuz they make it all.
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/11/2019 9:14:53 PM
^


There is a middle ground…we’ve accomplished that in the past.


we have?...........you'll have to give me an example of what was ever done to large Corporations that made them beholden to oversight.....................if you are speaking of financial institutions in the wake of 2007, then you might be referring to the Dodd-Frank act (which the GOP is trying hard to erode)....whatever corporate regulations we had (and still have) were 1st assaulted by Ronald Reagan.

Otherwise, I have to conclude that you are speaking about "democratic socialism"(which I'm not opposed to)....whereby each Corp has to partner with a state or local gov't in order to function, and also has to involve its employees in major decision making policies.


Yes - under the “ISDS” provision of the TPP..it’s a private tribunal to decide trade cases. It takes those decisions away from each country, thus these countries lose the power to make regulatory laws themselves. Powerful nations/corporations have the means to raise trade challenges/lawsuits, while poorer/smaller countries don’t have the means to raise or defend these cases. The rights of investors to make profits rule the day.


If this provision is that toxic, then why has it been in place with NAFTA all these years......and why hasn't it hurt America (not to be confused with American workers) ?


Citizens of countries no longer have the power to enact regulations themselves for their own country. It’s removed to global bodies with unelected technocrats that have only concerns about efficiency, profitability and growth of multinational corporations and banks


You have this to some degree under NAFTA (but this is not why Trump doesn't like it).....but looking at the link below:

www.tppbadforus.info/index.php/isds-provision-in-tpp

and reading the last sentence of the last paragraph of the 1st page...........the writer opines, that "Obama should renegotiate TPP and remove the ISDS provision, otherwise scrap the whole thing"!...............This begs the question as to what would make this so difficult to do?................Interestingly enough, many (pre-election) politicians were fully against the TPP (for reasons of the ISDS) including Bernie Sanders, Warren, Jeff Sessions, and various others!

Its odd that Obama was fully in favor of it.... in the form it was in...........a man, who was branded as a Socialist by the GOP..............but to digress, I would ask as to why this ISDS provision cannot be attenuated to some degree through re-negotiations.


And China isn’t in the TPP


I know,.....I should have wrote "if part of the TPP"


What the TPP amouts to is a bad trade agreement, pushed to counter the result of another bad trade agreement ….the one that empowered the rise of China


The way it is described in the above article....it looks bad, and dangerous.............but if we are looking for a tool to stem the rise & power of China.....then why would the Chinese participate in it?
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/12/2019 11:56:13 AM
LeFou

The secret courts that fleece taxpayers for billions was going to be part of obamas ttip deal with brussels. But citizens particularly in germany held protests and thankfully ttip got shoved to one side.

It was trumps opposition to ttip that many citizens welcomed. Here is a wee article about the secret courts........



"TPP would hugely expand the number of companies that could sue the U.S. government.

A secretive super-court system called ISDS is threatening to blow up President Barack Obama’s highest foreign policy priority.

Investor-state dispute settlement — an integral part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal — allows companies to sue entire countries for costing them money when laws or regulations change.

Cases are decided by extrajudicial tribunals composed of three corporate lawyers. Buzzfeed, in a multi-part investigation launched Sunday, called it “the court that rules the world.”

Although the ISDS process has existed for years, TPP would drastically expand it.

The most common criticisms of the system are that it’s secret, that it’s dominated by unaccountable big-firm lawyers, and that global corporations use it to change sovereign laws and undermine regulations. That’s all true.

But here’s what most of the coverage and the critics are missing.

The ISDS system ― which is now written into over 3,000 international trade treaties, including NAFTA ― was designed to solve a specific problem.

When corporations invest abroad, they fear that their factories might be nationalized or their products expropriated by governments that also control the local courts. ISDS is meant to give companies confidence that if a country seizes their accounts or factories, they’ll have a fair, neutral place to appeal.

But instead of helping companies resolve legitimate disputes over seized assets, ISDS has increasingly become a way for rich investors to make money by speculating on lawsuits, winning huge awards and forcing taxpayers to foot the bill.

Here’s how it works: Wealthy financiers with idle cash have purchased companies that are well placed to bring an ISDS claim, seemingly for the sole purpose of using that claim to make a buck.

Sometimes, they set up shell corporations to create the plaintiffs to bring ISDS cases.

And some hedge funds and private equity firms bankroll ISDS cases as third parties.

The Big Problem With TPP's Super Court That We're Not Talking About

www.huffingtonpost.com
 vlad dracul
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/12/2019 11:58:30 AM
President the donald though ripped up the old nafta thingy. And it should save canadian taxpayers lots of money.

The nafta deal between america, canada and mexico also has behind closed doors courts. Isds has cost canadian taxpayers millions. One third of a billion dollars apparently


"While the United States Mexico Canada Agreement (USMCA) is similar to its NAFTA predecessor in many ways, some experts are cheering the removal of a section little-known to the Canadian public — Chapter 11, Section B., or the Investors-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) mechanism

Behind the scenes of these major issues however, the Canadian government has been navigating a minefield of arbitration disputes brought against it by mainly American companies under NAFTA’s Chapter 11 — and these claims have cost taxpayers almost one third of a billion dollars.

Since NAFTA’s inception, Canada has spent more than $95 million in legal costs defending itself against investor-state claims and has paid out over $219 million in damages and settlements, according to a report prepared by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives in January 2018.

Gus Van Harten, a professor at Osgoode Law School and an expert in dispute settlement, is glad to see it go. He told Global News that the removal of ISDS means that “the new NAFTA is way better than the old NAFTA.”

What is ISDS?

The ISDS mechanism allows foreign investors to bypass the domestic courts and sue governments before private international tribunals. It’s historically been used to protect companies who invest in developing countries with potentially corrupt court systems.

The clause was initially added when Mexico joined the agreement to protect and reassure the interests of Canadian and American companies. However, as a result, the clause has largely been used by American companies to sue Canada.

“There were a lot of U.S. companies coming after the Canadian government for a lot of environmental challenges, as well as other challenges in Canada. So it was costing the Canadian government a lot of money to defend against those claims,” explained Walid Hejazi, an economics and policy professor at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management.

Canada has been sued 41 times under NAFTA’s investment section, more than either the U.S. or Mexico. While more than half of these cases have not been settled yet, of those that have been, Canada has won eight and lost nine.

The legal fees amount to almost $100 million, while settlements and damages have surpassed $200 million and arbitration will continue until outstanding disputes are settled.

Hejazi offered the example of Canada’s environmental policies as a common outlet for American corporate arbitration claims.

Because Canadian environmental protection laws are sometimes more stringent than those in the U.S., American corporations would often sue the Canadian government over restrictions posed by these policies, he said.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4519161/usmca-chapter-11-investor-state-dispute-settlement/
 vlad dracul
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/12/2019 12:16:27 PM
As i said european citizens opposed ttip. Citizens were never asked if we were in favour of ttip. All the negotiations were behind closed doors.

So ttip is dead. But brussels signed a trade treaty with canada called ceta.

Once again citizens were not asked if they favoured this trade deal.

And the globalist elites wonder why citizens are unhappy and are not voting for the tired old political parties.

If anyone can be arsed reading the link below you may see the deal only benefits multi national globalists.


"The US-Europe deal TTIP (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) is the best known of these so-called “new generation” trade deals and has inspired a movement. More than 3 million Europeans have signed Europe’s biggest petition to oppose TTIP, while 250,000 Germans took to the streets of Berlin last autumn to try to bring this deal down.

A new opinion poll shows only 18% of Americans and 17% of Germans support TTIP, down from 53% and 55% just two years ago.

But TTIP is not alone. Its smaller sister deal between the EU and Canada is called Ceta (the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement).

Ceta is just as dangerous as TTIP; indeed it’s in the vanguard of TTIP-style deals, because it’s already been signed by the European commission and the Canadian government. It now awaits ratification over the next 12 months.

The one positive thing about Ceta is that it has already been signed and that means that we’re allowed to see it.

Its 1,500 pages show us that it’s a threat to not only our food standards, but also the battle against climate change, our ability to regulate big banks to prevent another crash and our power to renationalise industries.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/30/ttip-trade-deal-agreements-ceta-eu-canada



And the five questions posed below should be asked in ALL democracies.............


"Tony Benn and the Five Essential Questions of Democracy

Tony reminded me of his belief that those in positions of economic, social and political power should always be asked five questions:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 191
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/12/2019 10:36:57 PM
to Drac


The secret courts that fleece taxpayers for billions was going to be part of obamas ttip deal with brussels.


Obama was on the side of big Corps because he owed them for their support....and you know what could happen to you if you break your pledges to the powers that be!


It was trumps opposition to ttip that many citizens welcomed.


Trump wasn't against TTIP because of the ISDS provision....he is too much of an idiot to realize the implications....he was against it because Putin likely convinced him that it wasn't a good thing... (as it goes against Putin's edict of sowing meyhem & discord in Western countries. )


Investor-state dispute settlement — an integral part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal — allows companies to sue entire countries for costing them money when laws or regulations change.


and if you read anything I wrote above....you'd see where I said that this provision can be modified (just as it was between the US & Canada in the new USMCA)


Although the ISDS process has existed for years, TPP would drastically expand it.


Some modified form of ISDS is needed.......to prevent host countries from undermining or subduing foreign corps


The ISDS system ― which is now written into over 3,000 international trade treaties, including NAFTA ― was designed to solve a specific problem.


Under the USMCA, grievances between the US & Canada must be brought to the tribunal of the host country....not to a private tribunal

https://thearbitrationbrief.com/2018/11/13/expected-changes-to-isds-mechanisms-under-the-usmca/


When corporations invest abroad, they fear that their factories might be nationalized or their products expropriated by governments that also control the local courts. ISDS is meant to give companies confidence that if a country seizes their accounts or factories, they’ll have a fair, neutral place to appeal.


This ^ is not an unfounded concern............look what happens to many foreign companies in China


But instead of helping companies resolve legitimate disputes over seized assets, ISDS has increasingly become a way for rich investors to make money by speculating on lawsuits, winning huge awards and forcing taxpayers to foot the bill.


The part of ISDS that lends itself to abuses should be eliminated from the statutes


President the donald though ripped up the old nafta thingy. And it should save canadian taxpayers lots of money.


Trump overturned an agreement that largely favored US Corps (at least in Canada)...........Trudeau played it cool, and faked Trump into thinking that Canada was getting screwed by undoing NAFTA........when in fact USMCA may actually serve the Canadians better..................great move by Trudeau IMO.....making a FOOL out of Trump and at the same time, making him think the US got the better of the deal by removing the ISDS!


The nafta deal between america, canada and mexico also has behind closed doors courts. Isds has cost canadian taxpayers millions. One third of a billion dollars apparently


Not anymore.....Canada should be gratetful to JT (who, like Putin...could not believe his luck, in having an idiot like Trump!) .
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 192
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 4:38:59 AM
LeFou
"The secret courts that fleece taxpayers for billions was going to be part of obamas ttip deal with brussels.

Obama was on the side of big Corps because he owed them for their support....and you know what could happen to you if you break your pledges to the powers that be!"

That be true. But obama was seen as someone who was going to help citizens. But he ended up the same old same old...............

"It was trumps opposition to ttip that many citizens welcomed.

Trump wasn't against TTIP because of the ISDS provision....he is too much of an idiot to realize the implications....he was against it because Putin likely convinced him that it wasn't a good thing... (as it goes against Putin's edict of sowing meyhem & discord in Western countries. )"

Err aye ok then. It's them pesky russians. Again...............

"Investor-state dispute settlement — an integral part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal — allows companies to sue entire countries for costing them money when laws or regulations change.

and if you read anything I wrote above....you'd see where I said that this provision can be modified (just as it was between the US & Canada in the new USMCA)"

I did read what you wrote. But i notice you can not credit trump eh sorry putin for doing away with nafa and the secret courts..............

"Although the ISDS process has existed for years, TPP would drastically expand it.

Some modified form of ISDS is needed.......to prevent host countries from undermining or subduing foreign corps"

You mean like looking after the workers in said nations? And nations have rules in place to stop globalist businesses doing what THEY want..............

"The ISDS system ― which is now written into over 3,000 international trade treaties, including NAFTA ― was designed to solve a specific problem.

Under the USMCA, grievances between the US & Canada must be brought to the tribunal of the host country....not to a private tribunal"

And the new treaty was hammered out by whom and on who's orders?................

"When corporations invest abroad, they fear that their factories might be nationalized or their products expropriated by governments that also control the local courts. ISDS is meant to give companies confidence that if a country seizes their accounts or factories, they’ll have a fair, neutral place to appeal.

This ^ is not an unfounded concern............look what happens to many foreign companies in China"

Well a lot would depend on which nations global businesses set up in. Maybe they should stop looking at nations where they can exploit workers................

"But instead of helping companies resolve legitimate disputes over seized assets, ISDS has increasingly become a way for rich investors to make money by speculating on lawsuits, winning huge awards and forcing taxpayers to foot the bill.

The part of ISDS that lends itself to abuses should be eliminated from the statutes"

And that is something that citizens should welcome. And now the new trade deal is addressing the problem. Well done trum err putin.................

"President the donald though ripped up the old nafta thingy. And it should save canadian taxpayers lots of money.

Trump overturned an agreement that largely favored US Corps (at least in Canada)...........Trudeau played it cool, and faked Trump into thinking that Canada was getting screwed by undoing NAFTA........when in fact USMCA may actually serve the Canadians better..................great move by Trudeau IMO.....making a FOOL out of Trump and at the same time, making him think the US got the better of the deal by removing the ISDS!"

Deary me lol TDS at it's best. Nice one................

"The nafta deal between america, canada and mexico also has behind closed doors courts. Isds has cost canadian taxpayers millions. One third of a billion dollars apparently

Not anymore.....Canada should be gratetful to JT (who, like Putin...could not believe his luck, in having an idiot like Trump!) ."

Oh I'm fairly sure the new deal will still benefit american businesses more. Trum eh putin lends a helping hand. Again
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 193
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 4:41:59 AM
A wee question for yous shermans. This new trade deal seems to have been welcomed by the three nations involved. So why would the democrats try to stymie it?

The new trade deal requires mexican companies to introduce workers rights. Why would the democrats oppose that in favour of worker exploitation?.................

"Does anyone know where all those free trade Democrats went?

Since Donald Trump burst on the scene, liberal policy wonks and their Democratic allies had a field day torching him for his tariff policies.

Last year when I testified before the Senate on auto tariffs, nearly every Democrat on the committee, including Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, spoke derisively of what they called Trump's "dangerous," "destructive," and "mindless" trade restrictions.

They protested that protectionism was harming our relations with our friends and raising prices on our consumers and could thrust the economy into recession.

Democrats were defending the virtues of global capitalism and international commerce, and stiff-arming the Trumpian "America First," nationalist theme. Wall Street and Silicon Valley started steering even more of its campaign cash to reward these pro-business Democrats.

What happened?

Now Donald Trump has renegotiated a new North America free trade deal with some impressive improvements, including greater protections of American drug patents and reduction in Canada agriculture tariffs.

Yes, there are some dubious protectionist policies too, such as requiring that Mexican auto workers get paid $16 an hour.

Will those virtuous free-trade Democrats put up or shut up? So far they aren't showing up at all. Every vote count analysis finds that support from Democrats is nowhere near where it must be to secure ratification through the House.

The born again free trade Democrats are inventing every possible excuse for stonewalling.

They are saying it lacks protections for American workers from low-priced Mexican labor and plant closings.

This is a farcical argument. In addition to the minimum wage requirement, Mexico must also enact a host of workplace measures that support and protect women, unions and migrant workers.

There are also new "Made in America" domestic content requirements for manufacturing. These sops to the unions are the very reason some free-trade Republicans are legitimately worried about the deal.

The fate of USMCA rests in the lap of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Will she free up her caucus to provide the votes to approve a Trump initiative that's good for all three nations?

Or will she ramrod Democrats back into their safe space of resistance to anything Trump is for - even if it advances the interests of Democratic constituents and the nation as a whole?

Even the liberal intellectuals who were ringing the bells for free trade internationalism are now stoically silent on USMCA. These free-trade hypocrites are apparently for every trade deal - unless it is negotiated by Donald Trump.

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2019/february/the-fate-of-trumps-usmca-trade-deal-where-did-all-those-pro-trade-democrats-go


"Trump and the leaders of Mexico and Canada signed a revised trade agreement late last month that was supposed to end an ugly dispute among the three nations.

But the new United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement can only be ratified by Congress. And Democrats, who will take control of the House, are showing they’re reluctant to hand Trump any kind of political victory."
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/policy/trade/article223115200.html
 LeFouGamboj
Joined: 11/17/2018
Msg: 194
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 6:14:05 AM
^


But obama was seen as someone who was going to help citizens.


He did help citizens by enacting many consumer protection rules....health care....etc........................even in spite of his support of the ISDS provisions, he did more for citizens....than Trump would ever do


But i notice you can not credit trump


credit him for what?..........the new Nafta accord has yet to be ratified............besides, Trump has never done anything altruistically, he has always done things to benefit himself & his organizations, so before any credit is given....I want to see the "finished product"


You mean like looking after the workers in said nations? And nations have rules in place to stop globalist businesses doing what THEY want


it has to work for both parties


And the new treaty was hammered out by whom and on who's orders?


you think it was Trump himself?..............Oh naivity?.

Like I said......I will wait for the end product......so far, it seems that Canada will gain some benefit


Maybe they should stop looking at nations where they can exploit workers


was such an "iron-clad" provision built into the new NAFTA agreement?


Deary me lol TDS at it's best.


Sure, its TDS....when Trump was advised by his own party members not to inact a Gov't shut down over the "wall" money, because he would not win............but did it anyway

Its just TDS...when Trump says that he "believes Putin"...... instead of his own national security agencies

Its TDS...when Trump said that there were some "good Nazis"....in the Charlotteville, Va riots

Its TDS...when Trump set up a fake University, then cheated aspiring students out of 1000's of $$.....and was forced to pay them back by a judge's decree (otherwise he could not assume the Presidency)....which, under any other circumstances he would never have paid back.............just like he's screwed many other people he has dealt with through the years!

according to you simplistic Trump loyalists.....anything adverse to Trump.....is TDS..............but Carry on, in your delusion!!!!


So why would the democrats try to stymie it?


Who is saying they would............they just don't want to give Trump a free victory......he has to make deals with democrats on other issues.....................just like it happened with Obama...............politics is a 2 way street!


But the new United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement can only be ratified by Congress. And Democrats, who will take control of the House, are showing they’re reluctant to hand Trump any kind of political victory


Unless Trump is willing to make deals on other issues concerning the Democrats.
 kavapaw22
Joined: 10/3/2018
Msg: 195
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 7:35:52 AM
Stockman: Trump, a ‘Neanderthal on Trade,’ Just Kept NAFTA But ‘Complicated the Machinery’

https://marketsanity.com/stockman-trump-a-neanderthal-on-trade-just-kept-nafta-but-complicated-the-machinery/


Vlad it is not TDS to recognize on an objective basis trump is an idiot. And he ain't no populist.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 196
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 7:41:15 AM
LeFou
"Who is saying they would............they just don't want to give Trump a free victory......he has to make deals with democrats on other issues.....................just like it happened with Obama...............politics is a 2 way street!

But the new United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement can only be ratified by Congress. And Democrats, who will take control of the House, are showing they’re reluctant to hand Trump any kind of political victory

Unless Trump is willing to make deals on other issues concerning the Democrats."


Yep i understand quid pro quo. It is used over here as well. So i cannot see online anything the democrats would like in return. And if the usmca would be abandoned and it could end up back to nafta.

I cannot see how going back to nafta is a good thing. Back to secret courts etc. But the main points to usmca as written in vox online are...............


"The pact has been tweaked to include changes for automakers, labor and environmental standards, intellectual property protections, and digital trade provisions.

Here are the biggest changes:

Country of origin rules: Automobiles must have 75 percent of their components manufactured in Mexico, the US, or Canada to qualify for zero tariffs (up from 62.5 percent under NAFTA).
Labor provisions: 40 to 45 percent of automobile parts have to be made by workers who earn at least $16 an hour by 2023.

Mexico has also agreed to pass laws giving workers the right to union representation, extending labor protections to migrant workers, and protecting women from discrimination. The countries can also sanction one another for labor violations.

US farmers get more access to the Canadian dairy market: The US got Canada to open up its dairy market to US farmers, which was a big issue for Trump.

Intellectual property and digital trade: The deal extends the terms of copyright to 70 years beyond the life of the author (up from 50). It also extends the period that a pharmaceutical drug can be protected from generic competition, and includes new provisions to deal with the digital economy, including prohibiting duties on things like music and e-books, and protections for internet companies so they’re not liable for content their users produce.

No section 232 tariff protections: Section 232 is a trade loophole that Trump used to impose steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, Mexico, and the European Union. Canada and Mexico wanted protections from these tariffs as part of the NAFTA negotiations, and the fact that tariffs are still in place remains a sore subject, particularly for Canada. Canada and Mexico did get the US to make a side agreement that shields them from possible auto tariffs under 232.

Sunset clause: The agreement adds a 16-year “sunset” clause — meaning the terms of the agreement expire, or “sunset,” after a set period of time. The deal is also subject to a review every six years, at which point the US, Mexico, and Canada can decide to extend the USMCA.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/3/17930092/usmca-nafta-trump-trade-deal-explained


The only point i would be opposed to in that is the coddling of the pharma industry.............


"Some House Democrats have been staking out their positions on the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement in recent weeks. Prevailing concerns have centered on how the pact’s labor and environmental standards will be enforced.
Several lawmakers have also been critical of intellectual property protections that they say could lock in high prescription drug prices.

“We want to make sure we have a bill that works for labor, for the environment, for consumers. We especially find the provisions around pharma very egregious," Pocan told reporters earlier Tuesday."

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/12/democrats-against-nafta-replacement-1263704


So the democrats main gripe seems to be about the pharma industry. So why did they not object during the nafta agreement about the pharma industry?

And the worry they have for labour and environment issues, are they worried for american workers rights? Because they did not seem to bother about their rights when nafta and ttp were on the go.

So what in your opinion would the democrats probably want in return?

Over here the NHS won a fantastic victory over giant pharma companies. The 12 ccg's now have a saving of £13.5 million per year. Which could employ 270 nurses per year.

Kick on the NHS.............


"The NHS has won a landmark battle against drug giants paving the way for the health service to save millions by prescribing cheaper medicine.

Avastin, which costs around £28 per injection, is widely used around the world. However, despite being recommended by the World Health Organisation, it is only licensed for cancer treatment in the UK.

Novartis and Bayer manufacture the two more expensive licensed drugs - Lucentis which costs £561 and Eylea which costs £800 a time.

Dr David Hambleton, CCG chief officer in South Tyneside, former consultant geriatrician and lead on behalf of the North East and North Cumbria CCG Forum, said: "We are absolutely delighted that we are now in a position to offer Avastin as an alternative treatment for wet AMD to our patients across the North East and North Cumbria.

"The drug is undeniably equally effective, and much less expensive, and the money this will save - in excess of £13.5 million per year for the 12 CCGs involved in this litigation alone, and hundreds of millions of pounds across the country - can be ploughed straight back into delivering the very best care possible to our patients.

"Here in the North, that's enough to pay for an extra 270 nurses or 266 heart transplants every year, and in a financially stretched NHS that could be life-changing for thousands of our patients.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/21/nhs-wins-legal-battle-against-drugs-giants-saving-millions-cheaper/

Platy
Trump said America First. Now like that statement or loathe it a chord was struck with citizens. The contempt shown to his voters says it all.

Scotland absolutely hated Margaret thatcher. There were parties in Scotland, wales and northern england when she died. But she struck a chord with many citizens. Which is why she was in power for so long.

Shermans who are/were just getting by had nothing to lose.

America First or ttp or ttip. Its a no brainer to me

Brexit or remain. Its a no brainer to me.
 Seamist474
Joined: 6/24/2018
Msg: 197
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 9:17:18 AM

Scotland absolutely hated Margaret thatcher. There were parties in Scotland, wales and northern england when she died. But she struck a chord with many citizens. Which is why she was in power for so long.

Shermans who are/were just getting by had nothing to lose.

America First or ttp or ttip. Its a no brainer to me

Brexit or remain. Its a no brainer to me.


I always liked Margaret Thatcher....until I visited Wales for a month and listened to an entire different story.

As for those "Shermans" who were just getting by and had nothing to lose were the uneducated and stupid, for the most part and he appealed to them on the same level as when a crow sees a shiny thing. And if Trump can be elected because he's such a pig, I'm thinking that it wouldn't take much to get Tucker Carlson elected either.

Countries like Canada like trade agreements but we're friendly that way and take people at their word. Our government signed TPP. We didn't gain much or lose much when we signed the new NAFTA deal and all it really did was give a name change to appease the Toddler in Chief.

And what WILL happen regarding Brexit? I listened to Tony Blair about a month ago and I know you never liked him, but he suggested another referendum as now the people are far more aware of what their decision will cost them.
 BBEisBack
Joined: 9/16/2015
Msg: 198
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 9:38:36 AM

A wee question for yous shermans. This new trade deal seems to have been welcomed by the three nations involved. So why would the democrats try to stymie it?


It's just TDS. Lots of things the Dems were for, before, now they're against.
Simply, if the Donald is for it, they're against it.
 kavapaw22
Joined: 10/3/2018
Msg: 199
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 9:45:58 AM
^^^^^ LOL.....as if Trump actually knows what is going on in any of the deals he pillories. Do you think BBE that he had the foggiest notion of what was in the Iranian deal that he now refuses to comply with? Trump has a simple view of the world...if Obama did it, I need to reverse it...and this is the man you all hang your hat on to make America great again. You guys are cultists...nothing less.
 BaldwinMotionPhaseIII
Joined: 10/15/2018
Msg: 200
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Why Are People Obsessed With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Posted: 3/13/2019 10:06:12 AM
Vlad, thanks for the articles. i especially loved this paragraph you missed :)

"Since 1994 when Ronald Reagan's vision and Bill Clinton's new Democrat promise to sign NAFTA was delivered, trade across borders in North America has almost quadrupled from roughly $290 billion in 1993 to more than $1.1 trillion in 2016, according to the Council on Foreign Relations, This has been one of the great bipartisan economic successes of modern times. Voting down USMCA would weaken the entire North American continent as we compete for continued supremacy against the European Union and the Asian tigers. "
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2019/february/the-fate-of-trumps-usmca-trade-deal-where-did-all-those-pro-trade-democrats-go

>>>i guess NAFTA wasn't such a disaster after all :) but it was done before the internet, so it would need an upgrade for what's new in commerce. as for the big mystery why the dems won't support it, you can google "usmca democrats" and find even a Forbes article on it. the issues the Dems agree with are, in the treaty enforceABLE, but there's no real way to show it will be enforcED. that is, the dems fear a treaty with no teeth will only have lip service paid.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnbrinkley/2018/11/16/house-democrats-wont-accept-usmca-in-its-present-form/#4855be93c430

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/economy/trade-skeptic-democrats-coming-out-against-usmca

even freshmen Dems from ag country, which sends much of its crop north and south, are leery of how anything will be enforeced.

meanwhile, Boeing has shown why AI is far from ready for prime time, with its Max 80 planes. Wonder if the government shutdown really did affect any FAA attempt to rein it in.

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/3/13/ralph_naders_grandniece_died_in_ethiopian

And colleges have shown us its not just Trump Sr. and Kushner's dad who offer an unfair advantage to higher ed. its still Hillaryous that those who suffer "Obama Derangement Syndrome" or "Democrat Derangement Syndroom" never self diagnose. Why is is deranged to notice the emperor has no clothes? heck, i thought chump's ban on bumpstocks would have sent the gun nuts who claim to hate both parties into...TDS. i guess its TDS when you DON'T spot what's going on. :)
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