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Joined: 8/1/2014
Msg: 318
WOMEN have a VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE on POF then MEN !!!Page 7 of 32    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32)
I have read thru alot of women's profiles and I have seen the minimum height requirements. They do exist with some people.

But, men have their lists, too. We all have preferences, whether we list them or not. I read guy's profiles and I know I am not what they are looking for. Quite a few want ladies to dress up in heels and****ail dresses or be ready to go out sky diving, skiing, and participate in a very active, sport oriented lifestyle. Should I hold this against them any more than the height thing?

You cant ask people to change their standards. I would never think of telling a guy hey, you know what, I think we could really get along but I'm not going to jump out of a plane with you. What if he really likes jumping out of planes..or dressing up and going out to clubs. Or doing anything I have zero interest in. Like going to ball games. Which I can't stand. Should I ask him to reconsider watching sports because I can't stand it?

And one of the biggest things now...ALOT of men my age (mid 40's) will not date women my age..they always have to be younger. Should I spend time lecturing them on what they are missing, how great I am, give me a chance, it's so unfair? I don't spend a moment even thinking about it. They are not interested in me. Because of my age. Nothing I can do about it. You just move on.

You have to respect what they want. Accept it, and realize it was never meant to be any way. Nothing lost.
Joined: 8/1/2014
Msg: 321
Posted: 8/30/2014 10:55:19 AM
About 90% of the men I've seen want women younger than their own age. Most of the time they will not even date women the exact same age, and this is also the biggest areas of lies I have discovered with guys..their age. Many are perpetually 49.

This tells me it is purely biological, unchangeable, not something we can "lecture out of men" by berating them. Middle age women are just not a high priority for alot of men, especially on dating sites where I think people feel they can dial up the ideal easily. You run across it enough to say to yourself OK, I get it-no debates, no fights, no remarks, you just adjust your expectations and move on.

I dont have an issue with what men want-we are all strangers on here in search of SOMETHING-youth, security, attention, love, sex-here and in real life as well. My prospects have almost vanished at this age, life is drastically different now. But there is peace in accepting this, not trying to wrangle someone into an ideal of how YOU think things should be, or trying to convince people you are lovable, desirable, when clearly they have no interest (been there, done that.)

On the other hand, if I request that a guy at least have a car and a job, he should not have a meltdown over it, labeling me "demanding".

Ah, a perfect world...... :D
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 322
Posted: 8/30/2014 1:32:28 PM

I'm just trapped here, really.

Nobody is "trapped" anywhere.
For eons, people managed to find relationships and marriages without the aid of OLD or even lonely hearts personals ads.

I want to tell you, I found EXACTLY what I wanted at PoF. I used a search engine looking for forums/discussion groups on dating-and it brought me here.

As for guys, yeah, I've dated and had a couple of short-term things from OLD in general. Some of those guys were shorter than I. Some were taller. I made a few friendships that led to other friendships and social/activity circles. Generally speaking I've had better luck with the "oldfashioned way".
But nobody is "trapped" in any OLD site.
Good grief.

The forums are an interesting timewaster for me-I like to know what's going on/what people are thinking whether I am or am not dating. And it's not uncommon for me to put dating/finding a relationship off to one side because there is some other matter, process or project I'm dealing with.
I am not at all unhappy about being single, in fact my wish to have a LAT( living apart together) LTR rather than cohabitation or marriage is a common source of misunderstanding/miscommunication. But that is not anybody's fault. The Universe does not OWE me dates or a relationship. Sure sometimes some things seem unfair, but LIFE is unfair.

I'm sorry, but somebody saying they are "just trapped here,really", just doesn't make any sense to me at all. That it causes people to over-think things, yeah. The "kid in a candy store" and "greener grass" syndromes, yeah, I guess...
but nobody is TRAPPED in OLD.
Cindy O
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 325
Posted: 8/31/2014 2:44:35 PM

Just as there's a "kid in a candy store mentality" with online dating for men such a mentality exists for women as well.

Actually, based on the volume of complaints of men who don't get responses, for most men, it's more like being on the outside of a closed and locked candy store and peering through the windows at all the candy they can see but can't get close to.
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 329
Posted: 8/31/2014 5:03:22 PM

"So you're asking for a woman to overlook the fact that serial killers and rapists exist and take a chance on some guy they've never met before not killing or raping them. You guys can't be that dumb right?"

Dumb is a bad choice of word.

Rape: there's no one solid answer, but they've found that 2/3 all the up to 90% of rapes were by someone the victim actually knew.

Murder: FBI stats say it's about 54% of people they actually knew.

Statistically, you're actually safer with the complete stranger from POF than your friends collectively.
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 331
Posted: 8/31/2014 6:07:41 PM
No, you didn't. You posed a hypothetical situation that had nothing to do with what was being said. The fact that SOME men might read and take a pass (which is great, because that's what my profile is designed to do... to eliminate certain men from the pool right off the hop). It was an insinuation that if men DID read my profile, they were likely to pass.

My example was directly related to what you said. You claimed that very few men read the profiles. I disagreed with it. Saying that "plenty of other men read the profile and didn't contact you ( or women in general )" doesn't mean all or most men in that situation. Plenty just means more than a few.
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 332
Posted: 8/31/2014 11:01:42 PM

Statistically, you're actually safer with the complete stranger from POF than your friends collectively.

This is true. I confirmed as much with a representative from "America's Most Wanted" once, at a health and safety fair.
The majority of murders, rapes, kidnappings, and child molestations in the US are committed by someone known to the victim, not complete strangers. When a married person is killed under unclear or suspicious circumstances, the first person automatically looked at is the spouse.
Joined: 8/1/2014
Msg: 333
Posted: 9/1/2014 12:02:17 AM
Whats interesting is that men want to know why women don't reply, and when the reasons are laid out, everything is argued with.

I've been reading some very astute and very accurate replies here from the gals about our perspective on dating, or concerns, and our experiences. The reasons why we do what we do. Our priorities. And instead of being listened to, everything is being debated.

THE number one question here above and beyond everything else is "why dont women respond to my messages." Almost daily someone posts about this.

Well, we've laid out why. We've offered suggestions for improvement or for alternatives. We've voiced our concerns for safety. Some of these posts are really really good-very honest, and very good.

Debating with women over the concern for being assaulted.,,not going to get you anywhere. Guys dont seem to get that a smart woman is GOING to be more cautious...more cautious than a man is. Her priorities are going to be a bit different. She is going to expect things that may not be what a man expects.

To argue and debate all this, especially when true and essentially fundamental, is not going to change anything.

This almost seems to be some sort of competitive thing among men that "women have it easier online" somehow.

I certainly never felt I had anything easy, so I can't relate to whatever these benefits supposedly are. Online dating is hard. Really hard-and so unrewarding I ended up not doing it anymore.

But to continue to debate with what women find important, what they prioritize, their sense of safety...changes nothing.
Joined: 8/24/2014
Msg: 334
Posted: 9/1/2014 12:54:01 AM
So,we all know that many men complain about not getting messages. Well, we hear from the ladies about how they were talking to this perv, that creep, and this d-bag, so on and so forth. These are the guys the women are messaging back, then complaining about it. So, these guys must have done something to peek these ladies' interests enough to get at least a date discussion. On top of that, they are complaining about the guys who they are not even trying to build a rapport with. It seems to me that the wimpy losers are still better then the guys you are picking. Or maybe you are just bitter and no better than the guys that complain. Also, when women post that online dating may not be beneficial for certain guys, that's not truthful? It seems to me that many of you ladies are saying when things go bad for you, it's the guys fault, when things go bad for the guys , it's also the guys fault. Who are the true bitter ones?
Joined: 10/25/2012
Msg: 335
Posted: 9/1/2014 6:43:46 AM

Statistically, you're actually safer with the complete stranger from POF than your friends collectively.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "complete Stranger."

If you have had contact with someone (e.g. become "acquainted" through PoF, by messaging, email, text, and/or phone calls) prior to an assault, then that person is an "acquaintance." In other words, they are NOT a "complete stranger" for statistical purposes.

Stranger Rape
When a person is raped by an unknown attacker it is considered a “stranger rape”. Stranger rapes, contrary to media coverage, are rare and account for only 25% of all reported sexual assaults. Most victims know their attackers.
Depending on level, a sexual assault (that a person survives) in this case would be categorized as a "date rape."

What the crime statistics reflect are statistics based on RANDOM (complete stranger) assaults. These are people who have no knowledge of each other's existence prior to the criminal encounter.

Yes. It is more likely that women are violently assaulted by people who are known to them. Previous contact, even though they have not met in person, makes that party "known" to them.

As a matter of fact, date rapes are thought to be severely under-reported, largely due to the perception that women are "complicit" in the act.

Finally, rape victims are blamed more when they are raped by an acquaintance or a date rather than by a stranger (e.g., Bell, Kuriloff, & Lottes, 1994; Bridges, 1991; Bridges & McGrail, 1989; Check & Malamuth, 1983; Kanekar, Shaherwalla, Franco, Kunju, & Pinto, 1991; L'Armand & Pepitone, 1982; Tetreault & Barnett, 1987), which seems to evoke the stereotype that victims really want to have sex because they know their attacker and perhaps even went out on a date with him. The underlying message of this research seems to be that when certain stereotypical elements of rape are in place, rape victims are prone to being blamed.

So, yes, women are far more likely to suffer a violent physical and/or sexual assault from a person they have made contact with prior to the attack, than a "stranger" who is not previously known to them.

This makes it all the MORE important to take precautionary measures when meeting someone, with whom you have had prior contact ( i.e. NOT a stranger), in person for the first time.
Joined: 8/1/2014
Msg: 336
Posted: 9/1/2014 6:55:47 AM
Patch, this isnt a "man" vs. woman" thing like most conversations boil down to here.

Online dating may not work for ANYONE. I am a woman, and it certainly did not work for me. The difference here is, I am not still spinning in the soup, still online trying to date, and *still complaining about it*. I removed myself from online dating in 2012. It has been 2.5 years since I went on an online date.

One of the pratfalls for *anyone* is the "false front*. This can happen to a man or woman. The person seems totally great at first, they tell you what they think you want to hear, they are on their best behavior. So, you trust them, go out to meet them, and "the truth will out." They are actually still married. They are actually ten years older than they listed. They are actually really only interested in sex, when they said they wanted a relationship....THAT'S how it goes down.

Now, if you continue to see that person, thinking they will change, well then it's your own fault for sticking it out with a faulty model.

With online dating you have to gather your information fast, then make a determination relatively soon about that person. And yes, you DO have to take responsibility if you choose to continue to try to hash it out with someone who so clearly is NOT what they advertised.

I decided to stop online dating because, one day, while scrolling thru profiles, I realized I no longer trusted people. It was just a feeling that sunk in. I lost my enthusiasm, lost trust, and I felt it would be best not to pursue this anymore.

So I am now here reading about other people's experiences and giving advice. I enjoy this, for the most part. Kind of interesting, seeing what people have to say. Not everything ends up being this "bitter" experience. We're not all blaming men, or men in general out there.

I love men. I do not love online dating.
Joined: 8/24/2014
Msg: 338
Posted: 9/1/2014 8:13:04 AM

It's interesting that you agree with NDT and with all of this "excuse" stuff. With the amount of negative things she is always complaining about in regards to men she encounters and her past experiences, why are you not saying, "well maybe your own negative attitude may be playing a part in it", and things like that. I have to applaud your hero prince approach to putting us in our place on the ladies' behalf. Your case of chapstick is in the mail.
Joined: 12/17/2011
Msg: 341
view profile
Posted: 9/1/2014 10:14:00 AM
Damn. This thread just re-enforced that dating and/or relationships just isn't for me. Yes, I might be one of the losers of life, but at the same time I am not even sure I even want a someone. I keep going back and forth on this issue a lot in my head. My depression surely doesn't help in the matter, especially at night. It is all too easy for us guys to think of women as objects of our lusts and wants, but it is another matter completely to think that they have lusts and wants as well that might or might not align with our own. The trick is to improve yourself for your own sake, but do not compromise who you are for the sake of who you lust after. I am not quite sure I could do that at this moment. The "not compromise myself" part that is. I have noticed I have a more chameleon like ego, and that is not entirely good. While the conflicts I encounter are very low, my risk taking is also very low, thus my results will always be sub-par or abysmal. Put into the terms of personal relationships, it means I make acquaintances and am liked pretty well, but true friendships are very few and far between. That is not to even mention romantic relationships. I could count them on a single hand if half the fingers on that hand were missing.

This comes to the issue that is the root of a lot of the problems for people like myself. A sort of inner strength. Whatever that inner strength is, is open to interpretation, but it is that quality that people desire. This issue leaks into every facet of our lives, from hygiene, emotional security, intellectual capacity, relationship building. Some people got it, some do not. There is no point in complaining about that fact if you take no or even half assed effort to acquire it for yourself.

Then comes the people that I admire. The people that just plain don't give a shit because they go after a higher calling. Whether that be social, scientific, or religious, its pretty much all the same creature. This is what I want to be, even though I keep flip flopping between wanting someone and not wanting someone. Unfortunately, I am really not that intelligent even though people around me say I am, and religion has no place for me anymore, even though at one point, my dream was to be a priest. So that just leaves social things for me to do. I want to start, but like the first thing I said, I have a low risk/low reward personality and I do not agree with most social services that come from a religion, or have religious undertones. Maybe one day I can get off my lazy ass and do something about it.
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 342
Posted: 9/1/2014 5:33:56 PM
There's also a profound difference between her b it ching and you guys b itching. You guys b it ch but you still want a result, you want women to jump at you and give you a chance. That is not going to happen. She may be b it ching but she is not demanding that you guys change and give her a chance. Big difference.

What you two forget, though....

Why don't we look at the "Why won't you just give me a chance" argument.

While we're at it, let's throw a few more common lines up there:

"Why can't I meet a nice guy?"
"I'm tired of kissing frogs."
"Looking for my Prince Charming."
"Prove to me that good men exist."
"Prove that not all men are the same."
"Tired of being used."
"Why can't I find a guy who isn't just looking for sex?"

I wonder where the "Well if you would just give me a chance..." argument comes from. Anyone have any ideas? Anyone?

And on a lot of these aruments, NDTfan is solid proof that your past affects the way you are. How many women honestly believe that if an ugly guy says "hi" that he's bothing you and looking for sex? Clearly something happened to cause her to think that way, while for tons of other people, nothing caused that to happen. When these guys complain that no girl wants them, try to remember, at one time, they could have been a very confident, great guy, but were just ugly, which is a death-sentence in high-school dating. Then they grew up, and their past is still a part of their life.
Joined: 8/24/2014
Msg: 343
Posted: 9/1/2014 10:34:57 PM
I have talked to quite a few ladies on these sites about their experiences with online dating. Not trying to set up dates, just friendly conversation about their opinions. Most of them say that all the guys they LIKE on these sites end up being jerks and players. These are the guys they are choosing to establish a rapport with. It is clear that many of the guys that do have success on these sites realize it can be useful for things other than meaningful relationships. It is the same online as in a bar, the pickup artist is not looking to pick up a wife. Oh, but that's right, all of these women are too smart for that. Or are they?
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 347
Posted: 9/2/2014 6:17:06 AM
if you write 30 girls who are active within a day, and you get near-zero responses -- pretty much you're aiming for girls out of your league. They can do better on POF. Simple as that, for the most part.

This may be true for some men. But even when a man contacts women "in his league", he still may have a fairly low positive response rate. There is a lot of competition on dating sites. There are more men than women ( although that starts to even out over 40 years old ) and a higher percentage of men make first contact. BTW it's not a complaint or whining. It's just an explanation.
Joined: 9/8/2012
Msg: 349
view profile
Posted: 9/2/2014 7:27:01 AM

True, some 'girls' are attracted to bad boys...then they turn 18. Women are, for the most part, attracted to confident, active, responsible, respectful males.

Most women like most men develop social skills. We go through the teen years is a state of flux. Well adjusted people learn. By the age of 25 , most guys are seeking the cute librarian they can take home and introduce to their mother..,not the high school vamp they lusted over in class.. The same with women, the good looking dude on the motorcycle wore pretty thin...somewhat no future and boring. For the most part we want good father material for our future children. Biology takes over on both sides...who will make the better partner in life...not who is wilder on a Saturday night.
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 350
view profile
Posted: 9/2/2014 8:48:56 AM
NDTFan: You didn’t answer my question, which was “why my profile, constructed with forum advice, with no hints of bad attitude, lack of confidence, whining or griping gets 1 unsolicited view a month and 1 message a year, while (IG’s) ‘leave me alone’ profile got so many views and messages that he had to start being mean about it?”

You think you did, but Jessebunnies already answered the question. The problem with your answer is that it takes into consideration the text content of my profile (my mention of the content was purposeful misdirection). But text content of one’s profile has NOTHING to do with the views one gets. The views you get are primarily a function of your searchable characteristics (age, ethnicity, height, body type, income, religion, etc.). If you’re not getting many unsolicited views, then people aren’t even getting to the point of reading your profile or even realizing that it exists. The reason IG continues to get many more views than I do despite having a badly written profile is because he ranks highly on searchable characteristics while I rank in the bottom 1% of searchable characteristics, which are largely beyond my control. Who cares about views, you ask? You can’t get a first contact message without a profile view first.

However, your criticism of my profile is noted, despite the fact that it sounds like you’re reading between lines that aren’t there based largely on our interactions in the forums. There have been other (likely valid) criticisms of my profile, but I have to say that is the first time anyone has EVER claimed it sounded “whiny.” I’d ask others to verify that, but I’m sure the only women that would respond are VK and TrustinKarma, and I know exactly what they are going to say in response to anything you say. But in other threads, I did get compliments on my profile from women (obviously not ones that I was at war with in the forums), so maybe it’s just a matter of taste?

“But when it comes to women, arguably one of the most important decisions in their life, they don't put any real effort in and expect it to happen. It's just because they're lazy as f*ck, and want it easy.”

Really? I put no effort into this site? Really?

When you say things like that, I find it unfathomable how many people here continue to take you seriously. And this: “Even if you do it 5000 times (5000 x 2 seconds / 60 is still less than 3 HOURS” is a direct contradiction of what you’re demanding men do – you really want men to put only 2 seconds of effort into contacting you? It takes more than 2 seconds to click onto your profile, much less to read it. And it certainly takes more than 2 seconds to construct the 3 sentences we both previously agreed upon is ample effort. Five minutes per message is extremely normal for any guy that is putting a solid effort into this site (NOT guys who are just writing “Hey” a second after clicking on a profile). And 5 minutes X 5000 messages / 60 = 416 hours or 17 days. There is no way I can be accused of a lack of effort. WRONG effort, perhaps, but lack of? Just drop that argument before you start looking even more ridiculous.

Oh, wait, you weren’t talking about me specifically in that case? Then quit responding to things I said with stuff that other men are doing.

“Make up for his shortcomings (seewhatIdidthere?!) by being educated, witty, nice, doing as much as possible to get women interested in him for other reasons.”

Aren’t I more educated than you are? Heck, if you behave in real life like you do in the forums, then I’m almost certainly even NICER than you are (all of my closest friends are female and they spend a lot of time with me – if I’m such a terrible example of a man, then why would they do that?). And certainly “witty” is in the eye of the beholder, but I do have a wall filled with writing accolades. What effort didn’t I put into making women more interested in me for “other reasons”? I was a competitive powerlifter for many years, I was the top student in almost every class, I have as many female-oriented interests as male (I’m not sure that’s a good thing).

Basically this all comes down: you hate my attitude in the forums and you’re trying to use that and your own bad experiences on this site as your primary arguments about my failures on the dating side of the site. But I’m not behaving like the vast majority of men on this site and I’m not anything like the vast majority of the men on this site. And you know this, yet every argument you throw at me is rooted in what OTHER men do and what OTHER men are. How much more educated do you want me to be? Should I go for my doctorate? How much more fit do you want me to be? Was a few pounds off the world benchpress record in my weight category not good enough? How much better of a career do you want me to get? How many more feminist-oriented musical acts like Tori Amos, Le Tigre, Cat Power and Sleater Kinney do you want me to be fans of? How much more time do you want me to spend on this site? Is 5 minutes per message not good enough? You tell me how far to climb, and I’ll meet you at the top of that mountain.

BTW, I have no problem with the length of your posts. I have a problem with people who have a problem with the length of my posts but not a problem with the length of YOUR posts. Nevertheless, because I was gone all weekend and have much to respond to, I’m going to break this one up into two parts (you, and the rest).
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 351
view profile
Posted: 9/2/2014 9:02:10 AM
Jesse: I don’t disagree with anything you said in your middle paragraph. But our environments are very different. Central Florida is by definition halfway between conservative backwoods North Florida (aka “Lower Alabama) and progressive, highly diverse South Florida (aka “Little Havana”). Technically I am in a market of 3-4 million people, but you move too far away from south Tampa or downtown St. Pete, you find yourself in “mudding country.” And because of the twin cities situation (not to mention Clearwater, Lakeland, Wesley Chapel and Sarasota being significant “little sisters”), the already sparse population of single women who would be willing to consider someone with my bottom 1% characteristics is extremely spread out and scattered. OLD is essentially the only method of finding most of them. In fact, I’ve almost never dated anyone from my own city, even though it is the largest and supposedly most open-minded city in the area. I’ve dated more women from both Pinellas and Pasco Counties than my own county, and it certainly isn’t because I want to drive nearly an hour for a date. It’s because those places just happened to be where the women willing to date me in this area lived at that moment.

I’ve also got hobbies that will likely never lead to a date. Women make up a very small percentage of people in filmmaking, and most of them that are in the business are actresses, and you know how attainable most of them are. Should I be taking up hobbies that don’t interest me just to meet women? I grew up in a mountainous area – I’ve had enough hiking for a lifetime (and now live in a place where the kind of hiking you do is impossible anyway). It’s also questionable as to whether I even have time for additional hobbies – I spent this entire weekend in negotiations with filmmakers on their potential participation in the film festival I helped found. That project will preoccupy nearly all my spare time until December.

I definitely get what you’re saying and agree 100% that I should have better luck in real life situations, but I am also not coming across single women at the same rate I did in my 20s (which statistically, is completely logical). I’m meeting lots and lots of women, they’re just rarely single. And the ones who are usually are single for a reason. Just like I’m single for a reason.

“Their all the same for the most part. Women on E-Harmony are not going to be any more inclined to over look the height issue than women on Match or POF.”

Technically, that is true – but back to the main subject of this thread, it’s really a question of efficiency. I can see right on women’s Match profiles whether or not they are willing to consider dating someone of my height and ethnicity (and can in fact leave women out of my searches that won’t date me for those reasons), and therefore don’t waste 5 minutes per email on them like I do on POF (where women don’t often list their preferences). And e-H doesn’t usually send me matches with women who won’t date me because of my height or ethnicity. Whenever I have a membership on either of those sites, I spend very little time on them (because there are not many women I’m qualified to contact) and yet get much higher response rates than on POF – because I am not contacting women who disqualify me in advance.

On a related note: “We all have preferences,*whether we list them or not.*” And THAT is the difference between an efficient site like Match or eH and a highly inefficient site like POF. Inefficiency is frustrating and leads to threads like this one. I would point out to VK: age actually IS one of the few preference listings on POF – in fact, it’s not a “preference” but a REQUIREMENT. Under normal circumstances, a man for whom you are “too old” doesn’t even come up in your searches. That is one of the few efficient characteristics this site has.

ladyc4: Sure, I could quit. But what if the day I quit, the perfect woman that’s been looking for me all her life signs up? Our ships will pass in the night. And all because I quit a FREE site. I’m usually less concerned about letting my membership expire on Match or eH because by the time that happens, I will often have gone a couple weeks without anyone new to contact (note that’s not the same thing as nobody new signing up – dozens of new women usually show up on all 3 of those sites every day, but on eH and Match, someone new that will not have disqualified me with her profile is very rare, maybe once every few weeks, while on POF the majority of women never put any disqualifiers or preferences in their profiles). So that’s why I say I’m trapped here – quitting could lead to that 1 big missed opportunity, and the only thing I’m losing by keeping a profile up is my psychological health.

“And instead of being listened to, everything is being debated.”

Debating is the backbone of these forums. I notice you don’t automatically agree with every piece of advice men give you.

“The sad thing is that hackings now has his answer. He's a short fellow and that's it. ”

I obviously knew the answer to that question before I asked it (and that interpretation is highly simplified, by the way). I only asked that question because you and others were claiming that my attitude was what was killing me in online dating, and the answer to that question would prove that my attitude had nothing to do with it (well, nothing to do with why I wasn’t getting any first contact messages; it doesn’t really prove that my attitude has nothing to do with why I’m not getting responses to my own first contact messages, but if the undesirable characteristics effect is there for profile views, then what are the chances that it also doesn’t have a strong effect on my rejected first contact messages?).

“However, I do not know how to change women”

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing on that one.

“You're either saying something crazy/foolish to everyone, or you're just aiming for girls out of your league.”

Which must mean it’s the latter for me. Which must mean nearly every woman is out of my league, because I message nearly anyone that doesn’t disqualify me with their profile or isn’t repulsive. (I’m aware of this – I’m just telling you, there are some people that have no league. Plus there’s the whole puzzling factor that the majority of women that I have dated have actually been attractive...)

Hondogirl: Age has a lot to do with it, too. I met a lot of women through OLD in my mid-to-late 20s before ending up in relationship for a couple of years with someone I met in real life (which was definitely a case of a woman dating me in real life that never would have given me the time of day online). Nearly all of those women were in their late teens or early 20s, which is an experimental and much more open-minded point in a woman’s life. I almost never see height preferences/requirements in an 18-year-old’s profile, even among really tall women. In fact, they rarely ever have any requirements beyond “be nice to me.” I am obviously way too old for such women now, and the ones who stayed open-minded were obviously awesome catches and are gone from the market, while the others through trial-and-error came to the conclusion that they didn’t want certain characteristics in men. Single women in their 30s seem very laser-focused on their preferences (they have ticking clocks, they can’t waste time with frogs). If you’re a short guy, you either need to marry them young or get rich and famous, or you’re kinda screwed.

“That is soo far from truth. Convicts get women, nice women sometimes. Guys that are drug addicts, unemployed get nice women. These guys probable make up at least 10 percent of the population. Do you really believe you are less desirable than them because of your height?”

20/20 once did this experiment in which they showed single women a lineup of men of all heights, and gave all the short men impressive resumés while they made the tall men pathetic. The women chose the tall men every time. 20/20 asked one of the short women why and she said, “I’d be afraid we’d have short kids” (I’ve dated one woman ever that was shorter than me – all the others were my height or taller). Then they asked what they could do to make the women choose the short men over the tall men and one of the women responded, “Maybe if the tall guys were murderers or something.”

That is how difficult it is to overcome the short male stigma. But I don’t say I’m in the bottom 1% just because of my height – that’s more like bottom 10%. The combination of all my searchable characteristics, including height and ethnicity (men with African ancestry are the least desired among American women) = bottom 1% of searchable characteristics. When I do a reverse search on Match (that is, a search that gives me only the women who have preferences that don’t disqualify me), after discarding the women who obviously didn’t bother to fill out any profile preferences information, I’m usually left with 1-2% of all women on the site. Most likely, it’s even worse on POF, because as a free site, it caters to a much more lower common denominator, plus as a free site, the competition is much more ridiculous.

That, combined with my dislike of children: it’s really amazing that I’ve had any interactions on this site at all! Again, I guess I should be happy with my 1 unsolicited view a month. Who are these rare desperate women that actually included someone with my characteristics in their search when 99.9% of men have better stats? Definitely women can be kids in candy stores, too.


I have to say, I was surprised when I came back from the long holiday weekend and discovered this thread still intact. It would seem Allison is missing...
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 353
Posted: 9/2/2014 10:09:02 AM
yeah yeah OK OK.
Men flop on Pof if they are short.
To all the men taking this position, I ask-
So what's your plan going forward?
Cindy O
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 355
view profile
Posted: 9/2/2014 2:37:17 PM
“To all the men taking this position, I ask-
So what's your plan going forward?”

A POF plan? There is no POF plan. You’re talking about something completely beyond our control. We can’t talk women into dating us who aren’t attracted to us. No amount of “life improvements” are going to change their minds about our attractiveness (except for leg-lengthening surgery or excessive riches). The site itself is unwilling to identify women who are opposed to dating short men but won’t list that fact in their profiles, so we will never be able to use the site efficiently (and even those few women who have no problems dating short men have hundreds of offers in their mailbox).

It’s something that just can’t be fixed, at least not by anything within such men’s control. It is what it is.

In terms of POF, the only plan can be to stay the course: continue to put one’s best foot forward and hope through random chance that a one in a thousand woman stumbles across us and likes what she sees.

However, as previously stated by me and numerous others, because of POF’s structure, it’s just a bad plan to begin with. The least frustrating course of action is to engage in some site that is more efficient or to engage in real life activities that could lead to dates. But that doesn’t necessary preclude using POF at all during that period of time, because statistically, it's still the place anyone is most likely to come across a potential date, because it is free and so large.

Anyway, I didn’t get involved in this thread for advice on how to make POF successful for me – my eyes have not been opened to very much at all, because I knew most everything that was going to be said before I even chimed in, either through meticulous research or from previous POF threads (or this one itself). I was just commenting on the original subject of “Women have a very different experience on POF than men” from my point of view, which is pretty much a no-brainer, as it’s been well-established that that statement is quite true: women (in general) and men (in general) definitely have VERY different experiences on this site, but I suppose the real debate is whose experience is worse.

I do think it’s pretty obvious that NDTFan’s experience is better than mine, just from the fact that it takes me nearly an hour to initiate 10 of my normal first contact emails (including searching and profile read times), while it takes her 2 minutes to read 10 of her normal first contact emails, but how typical is my male experience? Most guys probably do take only about 5 minutes to compose 10 messages of the type she posted and put almost no effort into the site, but that’s not me.

That’s what I’ve been trying to get across for days now: I am putting in the effort that so many of you women require. But this is DATING. Effort is but one part of the formula for success, and sometimes it’s completely useless. I can make all the effort in the world, many times over, with all the research and advice from all the experts, to make a 3 point shot from 1000 feet away but it’s never going to happen, because it is physically impossible for me (or anyone else) to do. (Basketball courts are less than 100 feet long, for those non-basketball fans.) I didn’t end up trying to “prove” something I already knew until people started claiming that my failures on this site were because of my attitude and effort. It’s just really annoying when people start hopping on that bandwagon despite tons of evidence to the contrary. Just because many men fail on this site due to lack of effort and bad attitude/behavior doesn’t mean that’s the case with every guy, and exhibit A was IG attempting to “fail” and still “succeeding” with not just no effort, but COUNTER effort, while I put my heart and soul into my POF efforts and got far weaker results. That’s not a whine – I’m not saying I deserved better results with the effort I put into it (though that is the argument of many that are arguing with me somehow -- more effort = better results). I’m just saying, the vast majority of my failures on this site were due to things beyond my control, and quite a few men succeed on this site due to things beyond their control. Just don’t tell me I made a bad effort. (At this point, though, you can tell me I’m currently making a DUMB effort, since I’m well-aware that the likelihood I’m going to make a thousand foot 3-pointer on this site is close to zero.)
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 357
Posted: 9/2/2014 2:58:42 PM

So what's your plan going forward?

Voodoo curses.
Joined: 8/28/2014
Msg: 359
Posted: 9/2/2014 3:52:14 PM

whining or griping gets 1 unsolicited view a month and 1 message a year, while (IG’s) ‘leave me alone’ profile got so many views and messages that he had to start being mean about it?”

'reverse psychology' in action, maybe? "I'm so wanted I have to tell them to leave me alone' ;)

if unwanted messages are "Really" a problem on here it is exceedingly easy to set mail filters to "no one under 99 years old" and/or other criteria. such as "must live within 75 miles" AND must live in Estonia" , for example, etc..such that no one could send a need for over the top profile: "Please, women, girls, leave me ALONE! I beg you I know you all want me so bad, but I am in a relationship"
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 360
view profile
Posted: 9/2/2014 5:08:24 PM
“I did, I told you that you look like a petulant 15 year old in your profile pic. Coupled with the FACT that most women don't do searches, and the FACT that IG looks like a grown up in his profile”

I don’t deny that I look much younger than I am and it definitely contributes to the lack of interest from women my age (no woman wants to date a man that looks like he could be her son). But like my height, there is nothing I can do about that. One day maybe I will start balding and greying, and that will fix the problem (and, of course, create new ones).

But it doesn’t matter that many women don’t do searches, because IG and I are in the same boat on that. Unless, for some bizarre reason, the 2 million women in the Atlanta area are much more likely to do searches than the 2 million women in the Tampa area, then the fact that he gets many more views for his “forums-only” profile than I get for my serious profile has significant meaning in this debate. It’s proof that many more women are searching for somebody with his searchable characteristics than are searching for somebody with my searchable characteristics. And we are largely equivalent in every searchable way except height and ethnicity. I will agree, though, that him looking like a mature man in his main pic and me looking like a teenager in pretty much all of my pics also factors into it, but again, this debate is about things that are within a person’s control. I mean, you look pretty young, too -- is it your fault young men hit on you because they think you look close to their age?

Jessebunnies’ answer is not the only one that I’ll accept; it’s just the only one that fits all the evidence, including the reverse match results on Match. But again, I definitely think it is an oversimplification to say it is height alone. It's a toxic combination of searchable characteristics.

“Who cares if short men with better attitudes, better personalities, better everything than you have, get dates all the time”

Give me some examples that aren’t rich and/or famous. And I'd really like some examples of short men who "get dates all the time" on dating websites (as opposed to real life). Also make sure “get dates all the time” is exactly that, and not a short guy who lucked out in high school with a girl whose preferences hadn’t developed yet and they are now still together 30 years later and that's his "date all the time" (after all, I didn’t have that opportunity since I went to a nearly all-white racist high school in rural Alabama). I actually work with several short men who are married, but they all married high school sweethearts. A few years ago I worked with this guy who was a couple inches taller than me, the son of a well-known politician and had ten times the looks and charisma I did and as a salesperson made way more money, and was white to boot. All of the women we worked with thought he was cool as hell. But one day when we were out clubbing, he turned to me and said, “I just keep striking out, man.” I haven’t worked with him for a half dozen years but I’m FB friends with him and he never has a “in a relationship” update, though much like me, he is always surrounded by a bunch of attractive women in every picture I see of his. Maybe it means he's banging a different one of them every night, or maybe it just means he has a bunch of attractive female friends like I do.

Also, I myself have been on “dates” with like 30 women (just none in the past 7 years) and was in relationships with 3 attractive women for more than a year each. How does that fit into your theory?

Of course, you could ask the same of me, but I already explained how that fits into my theory (they were all young and their preferences hadn’t developed yet).

“I can just imagine you sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NU UH!" as you read what I post. It amuses me greatly.”

I’m starting to wonder if I’m debating a 4-year-old.

“And I think that, like most men, you put very little effort into trying to find a girlfriend vs. what you'd have to put into a relationship if you actually had a REAL LIVE GIRLFRIEND.”

I readily admit I put no effort into getting my ex-girlfriend. After a year of us working together and not having very many interactions of any kind, she just one day decided she had a crush on me. I never understood why the woman I dated for a year before her liked me either – I not only never pursued her, but rejected her advances for months (because I knew that despite the fact that she was very attractive, she was nothing but trouble, which is exactly what she turned out to be). That’s the problem with dating – so much is inexplicable. I’ve put ridiculous amounts of effort into some women that seemed to like me and they either took advantage of me or never cared. Then I put no initial effort into those 2 women and ended up with 3 years worth of (dysfunctional) relationships out of it. MAKES NO SENSE. Which is why I often laugh at these effort arguments, despite continuing to put the suggested effort into it anyway, whether you believe me or not.

“When I wrote this, I was replying to something someone else had written. It's against forum rules to post more than one, so I have to reply to everyone on the one post.”

What rule is that? Post more than one what?

Also, I don’t live in California.

Look, I’m just tired of going around in circles with you about my supposed lack of effort. It’s pretty obvious that you’re either never going to believe I’m doing nothing besides spraying out 40 “Hey what’s up sexy” emails a day or you believe it and are just never going to admit it for whatever messed up reason is going on in your puzzlebox of a head. So be it.

"I don't know. I can tell you... if you did exactly as I tell you (in terms of changing photos, look, profile and email approach and ATTITUDE), I can get you at least 3 dates in 3 months, and laid in 6 months."

Are you willing to throw in a free cup holder and some fuzzy dice with that offer? If so, then I am SOLD!

Originally I thought I felt dizzy because I've got a bad summer cold that's blocking my sinuses, but now I realize it's because I keep getting pulled around in circles in this thread.

fuglygirl: Or, as someone else pointed out, he could just hide his profile. But obviously I'm glad he didn't, because it gave me evidence supporting my argument!
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 366
Posted: 9/2/2014 7:44:24 PM
Yes...No one needs to get unwanted messages...For women it's back to hide your profile for free...I don't know about men. But when it wasn't..setting your age limit at 80 or 90 does the trick too.
Or remove your photos....easy...peasy..

Men can hide for the profile for free as well. However I never had the "problem" of receiving too many unwanted messages on POF. My profile is hidden because I'm here for the forums.
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