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 blissed
Joined: 10/7/2005
Msg: 26
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RdtooPage 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
masterspirit...

I see what you and rdtoo are both saying and I don't think you are really disagreeing. The way I see it is that there are TWO ways (likely more) of dealing with depression. You can have faith and do nothing else but work with spirit as you say. Or you can use your other gifts from God (brain, logic, intelligence etc.) and other tools that God supplies (doctors, the internet for knowledge, better nutritional options, etc.).

Two things I want to mention:

1) Why do we need to choose one over the other? Maybe God wants us to eat better, exercise more. Perhaps he doesn't just want us to ENTIRELY have faith and do nothing else?

2) Some people when depressed just do NOT have faith in what the day holds, never mind if they have the strength to heal themselves. Faith can be the most difficult thing to muster up at the best of times, and when one is dealing with something that saps their energy and strength, it can be near impossible. Maybe at these points, God wants us to do what we can and whatever is possible for us at the time.


Like I said earlier, I do believe faith can heal. But I don't believe that's the only way God heals. He's a bright God and I think he has many roads to optimum health.

blissed
 blissed
Joined: 10/7/2005
Msg: 27
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History
Depression
Posted: 10/26/2005 11:12:24 AM
smoochies,

i just want to clarify that I wasn't generalizing badly about "all doctors". I too have seen the odd good doctor, although to be honest, most weren't MD's. they were naturopaths.

My comments were based on what I've seen in my years of seeing doctors here in Vancouver, Canada. I wouldn't call them assumptions as they are based on what has happened to me personally and not others.

I actually sympathesize with doctors as they are usually overworked and have little time to do a lot of added research. I have a friend that works in a very busy doctor's office and she says that most doctors often take the information from the pharmaceutical reps as the reps are the ones that know about drugs more so than the doctors do. (i.e. reps know about new drugs, doctors know about the disease).

My point is that doctors don't have hours and to spend researching each of their patient's best drugs/alternatives. I believe they know the standards and will often give you that as an option. But unless you can get in to see a specialist in your particular "illness" (good luck on that.. wow.. the waits are enormous!) then likely you won't get the up to the minute info. Nowadays, that is truly up to the patient to do their research and take it to the doctor.

I myself have done that with various things that have come up, and I've had doctors say to me "oh... i've not heard of that" (vasovagal reactions.. apparently not common and had to test for without the right table). I have gone to doctors and said "listen, i want you to work with my naturopath on a solution" (re a growth that needed surgery). I've even asked them to test my blood for certain things that wouldn't normally show up on the list, since I've read an article or 3 on something that perhaps the doctor hasn't had a chance to hear about (mercury).

AS to finding doctor's very interested in natural remedies? That's incredibly refreshing and I'll continue my search for those doctor's =) Actually one of my previous doctor's just wrote a book on stress.. and one of his remedies (besides antidepressants) for me when he told me i was depressed was to exercise more. He has my respect.... =)

blissed
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 28
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Rdtoo
Posted: 10/26/2005 10:24:59 PM
I do believe that God heals, but I do not believe that He heals "on demand". I do think most depression can be healed by turning one's life over to God and letting Him do His work in you. On the other hand I think some people are afflicted with personality types that are prone to depression. Many famous Champions of the Faith suffered from depression or blue moods or whatever you want to call them. Martin Luther was one of these.

Yes, I believe there will be complete healing in the afterlife and I really do not think our souls will be completely whole until then. This is just an opinion. Maybe I am wrong. My thinking on this was influenced by Dr. Francis Schaffers book "True Spirituality" which I cannot recommend highly enough to Christians. He also wrote the definitive reply to atheists with his book "the God who is there".
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 29
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Depression
Posted: 10/27/2005 9:34:21 PM
I worked in an operating room for several years and the anethesiologists were the most serious and ethical of all Doctors. Most of the ones I knew who have run off a pharmaceutical rep that did not have an effective and worthwhile product. I wish I could say the same about general practioners but the evidence is contrary. My mother had COPD for years before she passed away and the most effective drug they had gave her was one they were trying to take off the market. Her Doctor kept giving her newer drugs and she would tell him they were not as effective. I went as far as contacting the drug company consumer hotline looking for answers as to why an effective drug would be taken off of the market. They did not give me the answer but it was an obvious answer. That particular drug was not making money for them anymore so they wanted to quit manufacturing it. Effectiveness had nothing to do with it.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 30
Depression
Posted: 10/28/2005 3:56:26 AM
ASB
Loneliness will creep into every life at some point. However, believers are never truly alone because God has given us a permanent companion. The Holy Spirit.
He is the helper who is with us forever. No one can truthfully promise always to be available to another person the realities of time, distance,and death can separate two people who would prefer to face difficulties together. Thankfully, by sending the holy Spirit to live inside us, Jesus Christ keeps His promise never to leave or forsake us. (Hebrews 13.5) This means that our Companion is greater than any human friend. Since He is a person of the Trinity, He is adequate to meet our every need. The Holy Spirit's foreknowledge allows Him to prepare our hearts and our minds for any situation. We need never dwell in uncertainty or inadequacy.
Human beings were never meant to live alone. God designed us to be complete only when we are indwelt by His Spirit, which occurs upon our salvation. We can choose to ignore the holy Spirit, though. For example, some people stubbornly attempt to live the Christian life in their own strength or skip Bible reading when they find it inconvenient. That kind of life is marked by discontent peace will be fleeting, and loneliness will feel like the heart's permanent resident.
The Holy Spirit is our companion who walks beside us. If we hold Him at arm's length, we distance ourselves from the Father as well. But if we ask the Spirit to guide our steps and open our minds to God's ways, He is always available.
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 31
Depression
Posted: 11/5/2005 4:45:28 PM
You are rock! Thanks for the posts
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 32
Depression
Posted: 11/5/2005 5:49:03 PM
I read somewhere that artists have the most extreme temperaments. The are the ones that could almost be borderline schizo's. Very interesting.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 33
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Depression
Posted: 11/5/2005 10:55:43 PM
I'll take a stab at this.

First off, depression is anger turned inwards. Secondly, faith doesn't heal it.
Thirdly, the emotion is triggered first. The stress hormones comes second and when sustained over a period of time results in a chemical imbalance.

The general consensus is that when anger is not dealt with, it is internalized. It can be either anger at oneself or anger towards people, places, things or even ideologies. This anger can be internalized to a point where it is so well buried that the person doesn't even realize that they have a problem. Anger being an emotion, is at its core, based on fear because of a perceived threat to a basic instinct. Fear causes the physical body to go into a "fight or flight" state but because it has been internalized it can't be acted out or resolved. The body therefore stays in a constant state of emergency because of the stress hormones that are constantly being pumped into the body. This in turn causes the symptoms related to the disorder.

The reason I said that Faith won't heal these disorders is because at their core they are about a lack of forgiveness whether it is forgiveness of self or that of others, places or things.
Faith will lead a person to the answer but it won't magically take away the problem. For that, one needs to look deeply within themselves to root out any and all areas of fear and anger in its many forms.

I had at one time many of the symptoms of ADD, BiPolar and depression. I was fortunately in a 12 Step program and through working them into my life on a daily basis was able to resolve a lot of the issues which in turn allows me to live with some peace of mind. Today when problems start to develop and anger and unforgiveness again become an issue, I recognize it much faster and deal with it.
The Steps are a pattern for living that really augments the spiritual life and are easily adapted to whatever or whomever one's "Higher Power" is.
Although the preferred method is to initially do them within a strong support group, it is still possible to get some benefits by doing them on your own. There are approximately 260 different 12 Step programs dealing with various problems. Many of them have an online presence if any care to do a Google or Yahoo search.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 34
Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 12:13:44 AM

The reason I said that Faith won't heal these disorders is because at their core they are about a lack of forgiveness whether it is forgiveness of self or that of others, places or things.
Faith will lead a person to the answer but it won't magically take away the problem. For that, one needs to look deeply within themselves to root out any and all areas of fear and anger in its many forms.


Wow. Evil Kyro, most of your posts that I've read are golden. Be sure to stick around!
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 36
Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 8:23:57 AM
That was a great post Kyro. That first sentance told me more than books could have. Thanks!
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 37
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Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 8:42:14 AM
Thank you for the comments. There are a couple of statements I would like to comment on in your post, Infornography.


Not all 12 step programs are good, AA for example has abysmal success rates, but some really do help and if you already believe strongly going in, it helps a lot.


A prerequisite for the working of a 12 Step program is "hitting Bottom". It is a point where one comes to realize that life as it is, is unacceptable but so is death. It also involves the realization that no matter what I do, tommorrow is not going to be any better. A loss of hope.
AA, for many years had a success rate of 80-90%, but as time went on and its popularity grew, more and more heavy drinkers were being forced to go by their wives, workplaces and the courts. Many of these people had never hit bottom and were really not ready to quit drinking. As a result they either never worked the Steps of did so in a haphazard fashion with little results. This is the reason for the seemingly abysmal success rate although it is still 20-30% in various parts of the world.

A strong belief is not a requirement. Many who were atheists/agnostic or even antagonistic towards anything spiritually related are able to come to terms with working of a program.


Don't completely turn your back on meds, because they can help a lot in getting you in the frame of mind to start truly attacking the problem, but do not get too comfortable with just living on meds either.


As I said above, it is the "bottom" that provides the motivation to start the process of rooting out unforgiveness, anger and fears. Meds insulate the person from the effects of their character defects/dysfunction/sin. In that respect meds are essentially no different from street drugs, alcohol or any other addiction, compulsive or obsessive behaviours. They just appear to have a legitimacy because it is a doctor that prescribed them. Therefore I have to disagree that meds will get a person in the right frame of mind. The opposite is true from my experience.

For those who are not on them as yet it would be best to first go through a 12 Step process and after a couple of months reevaluate whether it is necessary to do so. For those who are currently on them a process that I helped an ex through might be of value.
When i first met her she had been on various meds for 3 years. None of the concoctions had been very successful in alleviating the mood swings and depression she was continually going through. I helped her through the 12 Step process to the level she was capable of in her drugged state. Her symptoms were reduced dramatically within a month so that her doctor actually congratulated himself that he had finally found the right med for her. Over the next number of months she reduced her dosage until after about a year she stopped altogether. She then did a more in-depth fourth step and as a result has been med free for well over 5 years.

 blissed
Joined: 10/7/2005
Msg: 38
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Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 1:37:44 PM
I have to agree with inforn and asb, kyro. That was very concisely and eloquently put!

Anger turned inward is the cause. I'm now thinking this is why so many people that do not understand depression to any degree, believing that it's "self induced" or at the very least, able to be fixed easily. And amidst all those that believe you can just eat better and exercise more or even take meds or just "buck up", that belief that you can control it often overshadows the need to find the root of the problem first (i.e. what is the reason for my anger?)

When you have reached the chemical imbalance stage, you often don't know it's about anger at all! So how do you actually start to heal if you don't even know you have anger? You have to come to that important realization first.

This really does add up. I know there was some subconscious anger within myself before and during my depression. Now that I have let go of the anger I no longer feel depressed. Some days are tough, but everyone has those tough days. It's nothing like i experienced years ago thankfully.


Melancholy in the temperment of great genius, like Einstein, Beethoven, great musicians, artists, scientists, you name it. But melancholy also carries with it the curse of gloom, pessimism, and depression. It goes with the territory. It goes with this genius temperment.


You know Grod, although I would hesitate to call myself genius, I have noticed that the more intelligent and deep thinking, creative types often experience depression. There should be much more education to the advanced students in school, and include at least the awareness that you are "different" and may not/don't fit in. Perhaps then, this could be guarded against before it reaches full blown depression.

I'll also mention that i'm typically more creative in things like writing, designing and inventing when depressed. Somehow creative geniuses are able to funnel their moods into brilliant art.
I wonder why that is?

blissed
 blissed
Joined: 10/7/2005
Msg: 39
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Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 5:08:04 PM
Thx for the welcome back, grod! If you guys would quit jumping around on the threads I could keep up better ya know!! lol


I notice as I get older my melancholy side of my makeup gets stronger and overcomes the easygoing side, so actually I become more depressive with age.


And for some reason, I'm feeling lighter as I age. Hmmmm. I think perhaps it's because now that I've gone through it once (or twice even) that I know what to expect and am less scared of it taking over my life again.

So, Grod, not trying to be nosey here, but do you think you have more anger as you age then? Is this the reason for the increase in your depressive moods? *curiously*

blissed
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 40
Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 9:54:28 PM
I hear ya, gorilla. I have an anger/depression problem and sometimes it feels like it's getting worse. With anger management, do they make you think of clouds and water to clear your head? :(
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 41
Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 10:07:32 PM
That's true. Finally took one of my friends to get his meds right. For YEEAARRSS- nothing. Now something is finally working. Forgot what it's called though.
 blissed
Joined: 10/7/2005
Msg: 42
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Depression
Posted: 11/6/2005 11:20:31 PM
hiya asb. *hugs*

I'm confused about your post about the clouds and water to clear your head? Is this something that is done within anger management classes or something? A visualization exercise or something like that?

I've not been one to deal with a lot of anger within myself, but i have lived with people that should have been in anger management classes. Perhaps I absorbed some of that, or perhaps I felt sad that it sapped so much of my optimism. But what i do know is that many people that don't know they have issues with anger, will never ever go towards getting better.

If you feel you have some anger, then you are more than 1/2 way there, IMO. I was just discussing this anger/depression correlation with a friend tonite and what I realized was at the time, I didn't feel anger, i just felt horrible sadness. Somehow, I dealt with letting go of the bad feelings I had, even without knowing even to this day what the reason for my anger was.

I think maybe "letting go" and forgiving yourself for not nurturing your soul is the way to best deal with anger. If it's about others, then let go of feeling angry about situations that were unfair. Forgiving them is a step too, although I don't think i've fully forgiven all those that deliberately messed with my mind. I don't know it's necessary to feel better, but it can't hurt, if you can do that.

I forced myself DAILY to list 10 things I was grateful for. I know that sounds hokey, but it really did get my brain to focus on more positive things. Over time, I was happier because i KNEW there was goodness out there and I could be less angry about the horrible stuff.

Just be kinder to yourself and know you are a spiritual being having a human experience. =)

blissed
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 44
Depression
Posted: 11/7/2005 7:28:12 AM
^^^ wow than we agree on something too!


I'm confused about your post about the clouds and water to clear your head? Is this something that is done within anger management classes or something? A visualization exercise or something like that?


Hey Blissed

I just wasn't sure what they would do at an anger managerment class (and I never saw the movie lol). I got hypnotized last year to quit smoking and it didn't work. And she was talking about water, and clearing my mind and clouds and all these tranquil fluffy things. Didn't know if that's how it is at an anger management class. lol
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 45
Depression
Posted: 11/7/2005 8:37:00 AM
Ya lol I quit on the 20th and it's STILL very hard. But I know God will help me step by step. That's just the thing. God tells us we will have tribulations, but he will NEVER leave us by ourselves through them. It's all a matter of leaning on Him and asking Him to take that burden from you.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 46
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Depression
Posted: 11/7/2005 10:39:15 AM
@@Infornography- Hard and accurate numbers outside of AA are impossible. In fact even inside of AA are difficult. It is a very loose knit fellowship and I don't believe the membership lists are even submitted to the central office. So I'm sure you can appreciate the difficulty in ascertaining true percentages.
What also makes it difficult is that everybody has a different idea of when someone is an actual member. For example, someone who comes to a few meetings to check them out and then decides he would rather continue drinking shouldn't be included in the numbers. A person who comes to the meetings and then decides to actually become a member but only attends the meetings without actually working the Steps is really just "around" the meetings not "in" them. AA is a program of 12 Steps. When a person is working them they are "in" the program by strict definition. Similar to a person who goes to church but doesn't believe in God or follows the way of life wouldn't be considered a "christian".

The only true measure of success is someone who works the program to the best of their ability (12 Steps). The percentage of successes for those people is much higher than the 20-30%. Likely not as high as 80-90% but probably in the 50-60 range. That I can attest to from personal experience by looking at those who I've known to have worked the program.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 47
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Depression
Posted: 11/7/2005 10:57:16 AM

I forced myself DAILY to list 10 things I was grateful for. I know that sounds hokey, but it really did get my brain to focus on more positive things. Over time, I was happier because i KNEW there was goodness out there and I could be less angry about the horrible stuff.


I use that method myself even if I don't actually list them. It never fails to put me in a better frame of mind. An attitude of gratitude
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 48
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Depression
Posted: 11/7/2005 11:03:45 AM

Wow, asb, now you've got me wondering. After hearing so much about drug addicts who found the Lord and were instantly delivered, I thought it applies to everyone, that if you get saved, you get delivered. Guess I was naive, some people still struggle with smoking after they get saved. It must vary with the individual.


What is your take on the difference between people who are street drug addicts and those who take meds?
What I've learned is that there is no difference betwen the two except for the supplier, so I'm curious as to how others view the difference if any.
 E.Kyro
Joined: 10/3/2005
Msg: 49
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Depression
Posted: 11/7/2005 11:23:47 AM
Thank you for your opinion, Cat.

I wasn't judging but asking. There is a difference.
I have lived with the devestation of depression, both in myself and those I've been in relationship with. I have mentioned that a few posts back but perhaps you missed it.
 ASB
Joined: 9/17/2003
Msg: 50
Depression
Posted: 11/7/2005 12:15:05 PM
Evil Kyro- Ya I can agree with you on that. But it's so hard to tell how your OWN body will react to a drug. For instance: I have an "enlarged fatty liver". I guess my enzimes are up there. And that's mainly from ibuprofen. I suffer from bad headaches a lot and that's the only thing that helps. Also it's bad for your stomach. Well lucky me, I also suffer from REALLY BAd acid reflux (and don't have insurance to get on meds to help me) Either way, I'm in a hole. But a few of my family members take Ibuprofen and they are fine. Nothings wrong at all. Same thing with an anti-depressant. If you have an addictive personality, you can easily become addicted to the way it makes you feel. But if you don't, then you're probably fine. Just depends on what's right for who. It's hard to tell though usually until it's too late.
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