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 canambc
Joined: 6/8/2005
Msg: 6
Natives rights...pros and cons....Page 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
You know this is funny but also a serious topic...
Im 1/2 Cherokee 1/2Blackfoot..
and my Great Grand father was on the Trail of Tear's at the age of 9 yrs old walking from the east end of Tennessse.. to the "reservation"...
Anyways..
Below the 49th Native Rights theres not that much news on it as it is in Canada now in BC In the Okanagan Valley theres a few tribes that went BC Goverment to demand that a certain percentage of Natives work on building the Floating Bridge project since it was going to be on 1 side of native land and this sort of thing is all across canada But below the 49th not a word only Hmmm Opening of new casinos on reservation land.. I think its time to stop waiting on hand outs and start doing what we know we can do with out lands...

Ottawa really dont give a rats a*** about native lands and laws.. they just humor us.. and pat us on our heads and only worry about us when they need our Vote..


Im Going to hush now...
get off my soap box.. this topic can get nasty LOL
 sammysalt
Joined: 9/7/2005
Msg: 10
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 10/17/2005 7:14:39 PM
My husbands family look no more indain than I do, but because its in the blood line some place, they all were able to get a haitarage card. (I know I spelled that wrong. and am way off on the spelling, so have a good laugh on it and move on please.) He got my son one to. Personaly I think that kind of stuff should be reserved for pure blood lines. I didn't like him doing it. They said that way if there comes a day that they sell the indain land, the people with the card, can get something out of it. I think people that are 100% should get it, for staying true to their past. It didn't feel right them getting one. Don't hate me now, but thats how I feel about it. pure blood lines are getting rare. I think its good that some stay true to it.
 williamspeak
Joined: 10/14/2005
Msg: 20
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 10/17/2005 8:07:17 PM
The natives are a defeated nation. It is an absolute anomoly of history that we allowed them to live and actually allowed them land. This kind of stupid generosity will never be appreciated. They see it as weakness.
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 35
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 10/17/2005 9:08:54 PM
nothing is done to them for fishing out of season


That's odd considering that the NS natives face severe fines for fishing trout out of season in waters they have fished before Canada bacame Canada. Funny how THEY are not the ones who depleted the Cod and Atlantic Salmon stocks.

As far as tobacco is concerned...who started it? Who introduced it to Europeans?


The Peruvians.

It is also Canadian LAW that states "a Natives word in court MUST carry more weight than that of another person"...


Bullsh*t. Show me the legislation. (Have you ever heard of teh Drybones case?)

Um..did you get beat up by a Native or something? Maybe one swept in and stole your wife or gf? (Gotta watch out for them cheekbones dude; ladies dig em)

Another group (Europeans) did the exact same thing...displaced the natives.


Actually they made treaties/contracts then broke them.

Other groups have tried for the same thing and it has been denied


You mean like self regulating industries?

Indian affairs has had to step in and take over the financial end for more than one band because of corruption


Enron. (done)

It was PROVEN in court that they made extra cigs just for that purpose. The Natives made a mint...and still do.


Now research pharmaceuticals.

Whale hunting by Natives....why? Cause it is their "tradition"? Jeeze...we have generations of fishermen who can no longer carry out their "traditional" method of living...they have to change. Why not the natives too?


Because they don;t deplete the stocks.

They want the electricity, the big screen TV's, the comfortable homes, the big pay jobs, the new trucks and cars...great...EARN THEM, just like everyone else has to


And don't cheat on your taxes like many others; or do it through bankruptcy law manipulation.

Any culture or society that doesn't keep up


Does not collapse like all world leading countries do. (See CHina)

I just do not agree with special rights and priveledges for anyone....treat people ALL the same, both socially and within the law


Agreed.

Cannibalism within Canadian tribes was NOT unknown


Cannibalism within WHITE culture was not unknown.


We can't be making restitutions to every group that ever walked on this soil,


But you CAN make restitutions to agreements which were broken or not honored.


but that was pretty cut and dried anyways.


And had nothing to do with broken contracts or pacts.
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 43
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 10/17/2005 11:02:06 PM
Supreme Court of Canada handed that notice down last year.


We need a name. A case name or precedent name may work. R vs ?????? (I.e. R Vs Drybones)

IS the *cough* new law(s) given a distinctive name? Or do we just Google "natives word strongest"?

...there has been more and more evidence that native americans did eliminate species as a whole, long before Europeans were on the scene...


Man; you're SO not very good at illustrating your points with examples.

They depended on word-of-mouth handed down for generations.


Do not forget "art" there chief. (in many cases; as good as "signature") Better if it can't be forged. ;)

I find it incredible that anyone would think that a native would be able to write his name in the early 1800's. Very few could write at all, back then. BUT....someone could write their name for them, then have it marked by that person as their signature. It was a common practice used back then...many white people were uneducated and signed contracts this way. Nothing odd there...for THAT time in history


Many still do in fact. It is also illegal now.

You will not change anything with your technique sir. If nothing else; you will just look bad.

What is it that you would most like to change?

I think ALL peoples need to be treated on an equal basis


Is that your thesis or main topic sentence/point? If so; you may want to address the class war, as well as, the regional disparities, as well as, race, as well as.....well...you get the picture...no?

Yes, I agree with this point you make; but the natives WILL and DO say that they did not even get the start (ok..the same opportunities for the first x amount of years as did any white Canadians) Again; I refer you to R vs Drybones. (look at the date AND the case) Once you read this; we can go into further injustices or inequalities which were in place during times when everything HAS been very well documented.

With that being said; I also think everyone should be treated equally under and before the law and in the eyes, actions and judgements of society. (Sh*tty word that "should") <--such a teaser and unfair word really.

I have heard that Casinos are making many welathy natives ,(in the US anyways), who share the traits of tyrants and tax cheats AND philanthropists and local heroes JUST LIKE WHITE PEOPLE!! (neat hu?)

Perception and understanding sure does go a long way to ending ignorance.

Talk to natives of many tribes that, both look poor AND rich, or educated AND non-educated. They will teach you lots sir. (promise)

Maybe send a letter or email to Mr Ken Dryden? I am sure that HE would love to spend some time in the Parliamentary vaults discussing history with you. (or didn't you know?)
 Frrosty
Joined: 3/21/2004
Msg: 44
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 10/17/2005 11:19:55 PM
I apologize "The Honorable Mr. Ken Dryden" that is.

Maybe he could and would give you insight into the native cases and stories within Canada.

I bet you could get a reply from him if you speak nicely and with respect you know. (He isn't exactly THE busiest Minister)

The man knows much native history. I will not tell you why. (I will let you enjoy that finding yourself)

:)
 serendipitee
Joined: 9/5/2005
Msg: 56
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 10/19/2005 8:57:56 PM
Hey I didn't read the thread but based on the original post, how can you say natives should have no rights?
What if Joe Blow came along and decided he wanted the land your house sits on and just took it? Somehow I suspect you would not go for that. How is what you're talking about different?
As for the smoking thing that's personal choice and people make STUPID personal choices every day. I certainly hope you aren't blaming the Indians for the fact that some people CHOOSE to smoke. Sorry Bud but that's ludicrous. It's like saying my neighbor introduced me to crack, I've become a crack-head, it's my neighbors fault? Sounds like faulty reasoning to me. No?
 Diggy03
Joined: 4/7/2005
Msg: 59
view profile
History
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 10/20/2005 11:29:06 AM
Ok.... let me understand this.... the OP wants equal rights between all men and First Nation's People? Are you referring to all of us having the same "rights" as First Nation's People or all First Nation's People having the same "rights" as all men?

From my perspective First Nations People don't have it as good as more than half the population think they do. Everything and anything that you see as a "handout" really doesn't help them in any way. In fact it hinders most First Nations People's.

Ummm... why is the OP even bringing this up? How does this concern him in any way? I could understand if it were a First Nation's Individual who started this.. but you are all aware of the hardships you endure on a day to day basis regardless of the history in your culture.

Ok.. I really have no opinion on this matter. Just thought I'd stop in and say "HI".
 LynnOtten
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 64
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 9/12/2010 10:12:39 PM
jimi, "Little is giving in return to really help their people."
I disagree. The profits (in my tribe. Cant speak for others.) from our tribal casinos provide many things for their people. Once all the taxes are paid, then the rest goes to tribal administration and programs. Tribal employees pay, housing assistance, medical and dental facilities. Scholarship programs, as well as countless youth and elders programs. Programs that keep those youth involved in their community and teach the importance of leadership and about their heritage. These are just a few of the things that the casino money enables the tribe to give back to their community.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 69
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 9/13/2010 12:34:04 PM
As a non-First-Nations/non-Aboriginal (pick and choose your label), I'll just attempt a response to yna6, who asked "not one person has done anything to disprove that we should all have the same rights."

1. I'm not going to comment on the situation of various First Nations groups in the U.S., as I know little about it. What little I do know, applies to the Canadian context.

2. Yes, we all **should** have the same rights, but the *fact* of the matter is that this proposition never was true, insofar as the First Nations people were concerned. They never *had* the same rights, and were never treated equally.

First Nations men could not even vote in Federal elections up until 1960 without renouncing their status. That's simple fact. So are all the shameful and sordid episodes involving the residential schools, where aboriginal children were quite legally (at the time) separated from their families and subjected to all kinds of abuses, ranging from molestation to being strapped for having the temerity to speak their own languages.

The notion that one could, with just a stroke of a legislative pen, wipe all of these facts out and just legislate First Nations people into having the "same" rights as any other citizen is just a non-starter.

Regardless of whether we're talking about M├ętis or Haida or any other group, how does it answer the question of basic fairness to say, in effect, "er, so sorry 'bout the rampant ripoffs, cheating, and that business of having your children legally kidnapped, beaten and molested, but we're all going to play fair now, 'm'kay? Just ignore the fact that I looted half the $500.00's out of the bank before we let you start playing and make with the Park Place hotel rentals, please."

Sure, yes, there are some legitimate questions to be raised about what needs to be, can be, or should be done to remedy all of this.

There are some legitimate questions to be raised about what responsibility non-Aboriginals who were never even remotely involved in all of this would have, i.e. anyone who was a child in the 1980's or later, recent immigrants and so on.

In fact, someone whose family was of Chinese origin that had been in this country for over a 100 years could easily say, well, our ancestors were being head-taxed and worked as near-slaves on the railroads around the time that a lot of what you're complaining about was going on, we didn't arrest anyone for having a potlatch and were way to busy doing other people's laundry because it was the only job we could get than to hand out beatings in residential schools, so why do we get to pay for all of that now, etc.

There are also legitimate questions about the ambit of Aboriginal self-government, whether Aboriginals in positions of power should be allowed to tyrannize their fellow band members, run criminal rackets with impunity, and so on.

But it's a non-starter to just pretend that a past of violent oppression didn't happen, and that neither the government nor the other citizens of the country have any responsibility to do something about the situation, even that "something" in the end amounts to little more than leaving the Aboriginal people well enough alone to run their own lives, themselves, without paternalistic harassment "for their own good".

People complain about the First Nations getting some government handouts, and sure they receive some, but that's often due to the fact that they were deprived of a lot more to begin with, and this stuff is still going on. If you look at the James Bay development projects going on in northern Quebec right now, you're talking about flooding thousands of people out of lands their ancestors have occupied for **at least** hundreds of years.

3. All of the complaints about 'special' rights for First Nations people really have to face up to the fact that 'special' rights (and obligations) for First Nations people have always been a part of Canadian law for as long as the Canadian state has had meaningful control over their lives. This stuff is not 'new', and it was Europeans who started those impositions in the first place.

As for the newer part, sections 25 and 35 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms were ratified by overwhelmingly *non*-Aboriginal legislative bodies, and as for what they mean and the rights they guarantee, there are over a million First Nations people in this country and there are exactly zero Aboriginals on the Supreme Court of Canada that plays a huge role in determining their rights.

It's actually a bit of a surprise to me that the First Nations people are not a LOT more militant than they have been. I realize it's an appeal to emotion, but people who are hostile to First Nations' rights should consider approaching the question with more of an open mind. If someone proposed bulldozing your ancestral cemetary to make way for a golf course, wouldn't you have an issue with that even if you did not own it?
 olddirtybastard
Joined: 9/9/2010
Msg: 70
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 9/13/2010 2:33:38 PM


Ummm... why is the OP even bringing this up? How does this concern him in any way? I could understand if it were a First Nation's Individual who started this.. but you are all aware of the hardships you endure on a day to day basis regardless of the history in your culture.


possibly because we are not supposed to be 'racist' these days, but yet grant special rights (tax exemptions, hunting, fishing rights, free post-secondary education, exemption from normal courts in some area (tribal councils) etc., etc. to some people, based solely on blood-lines (who their great-great-great-grandfathers were..)

how is that not racist? please explain?
 olddirtybastard
Joined: 9/9/2010
Msg: 71
Natives rights...pros and cons....
Posted: 9/13/2010 3:16:01 PM

Anything the First Nations/N.Americans recieve is far too little and far late in the day.
I find it unbelievable how they were so shabbily treated,until recent date and now they get some small recompense and the mingers come out complaining.Just think of the centuries that the Natives had no voice and in their own lands.

And before some ursurper says there were others there before the First Nations........well thing is that we have them here and now.They were there First of those here now.
Great heritage and the best thing about North America is the Native American,his culture,art,music and history.


er, you are English, this affects you how? oh you mean by all the colonies the UK took and gave people no voice in their own lands, etc..?

Q: Why does the sun never set on the British Empire?

: because God would never trust an Englishman in the dark.
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