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 AUTHOR
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 59
How do you feel about prayer in school?Page 2 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
Don't we agree, at least for the purpose of this discussion, that prayer and the Bible are two different subjects all together?

Prayer and the Bible are two different subjects -- but not for the purpose of separation of religion & govt. The Bible is derived and branched off of the Jews' docterine, and the same goes for the Koran... then of course, you have a boatload of other religious docterine that's out there for other views, etc.

But, the purpose of this discussion is whether prayer should be mandated, passively or aggressively, in public institutions. Many people don't have a problem with it done passively, but I (as with other church/state separatists) do.

The Bible is different than prayer, but both are religious entities, and both should be for the people only - not promoted by government officials. Unless, of course, the 1st Ammendment doesn't mean anything. :)
 dogar2007
Joined: 5/24/2006
Msg: 71
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History
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 6/25/2006 12:06:36 PM
I believe in being fair. And I do believe in God. I am not an atheist. So, in the interest of fairness, I figure we can have morning prayer in public schools when they let me start teaching a science class on evolution from their church pulpits on Sunday mornings. Fair is fair, right?

It just kills me that people who don't have the time to read the Bible with their kids or say daily prayers with them, somehow think the school system should take over this job for them as well. Parents have their kids more hours a year than the school does, so why don't they do it themsleves? Simple answer: it's not about their kids - it's about your kids! They want to make your kid pray, because they have decided it is good for him to do this. Just another example of some ultra-conservative elitist know-it-all deciding what is good for everybody else.

Sign in a tavern: "We have an agreement with the bank; we don't cash checks and they don't sell booze."

Sign that should be in schools: "We don't obey churches, and they don't have to listen to us, either."

Same principle!
 dogar2007
Joined: 5/24/2006
Msg: 75
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How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 7/6/2006 10:54:58 PM
Nobody is stopping a child from taking a moment and saying a silent prayer to God if he wants to. That is not imposing on anybody else, and most of the kids won't even notice unless somebody is intentionally seeking peoples' attention. Kids have been praying in school ever since they invented school exams!

However, it most certainly is intruding on other people when you say to them, "Now you have to stop talking and stop what you are doing so that I can pray right here and now if I choose to and everybody can know I'm doing it."

You want to pray? Fine. But please don't force others to participate in your prayer time. That should be between you and God. Even Jesus advised people to pray in private unless they were trying to make a big show for others. (Matthew, Ch. 6, verses 5-6)
 SelfSufficient
Joined: 12/14/2005
Msg: 77
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 7/7/2006 10:21:03 PM
It has nothing to do with how I feel ....

to anyone that can read --- the bill of rights clearly says:
" or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; "


It's pretty black and white.

It would be much simpler if the waters were not muddied by
the existance of government schools.

With all private schools it is simply a matter of what the school policy is
so pick a school whose policy you like.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; " only applies to government and
government schools, not private business's.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 81
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 8/9/2006 11:41:55 AM
Majestic_Wizard,

But not allowing people to pray on their own at appropriate times (like the moment of silence) is unethical and unconstitutional.

That's never an issue, thank God. No pun intended! :)
 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 86
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 8/13/2006 10:26:02 AM
I'd say keep the prayers going !!. Young people need a good foundation to go on and part of that development happens in school. They need to be taught in an ethical way so they grow up into good, well developed people.

We need more people with values and the right perspective on life and to know right from wrong.
 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 88
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 8/13/2006 4:11:59 PM
Prayer must stay in schools, it is what the U.S. has been founded on and for them to leave God out of schools will lead to problems down the road.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 91
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 8/14/2006 7:57:21 AM
Rob_0126,

Prayer in school should stay. It has been there for years because our country was founded upon christian values. Say what you will, but it's true.

You mean "stay" in the places where it remains still.... as that's where the debate is. Government-sponsored prayer has been cast out of public schools in many places for a while. Also, the term "prayer in school" can be misleading, as the real debate is whether government schools should have an official time set to have kids pray. Just an fyi, virtually nobody is against allowing kids to pray -- it's uncle sam being preacher sam, where the debate is.

First, Christianity has no copyright and no room to boast when it comes to "values". Like children, the 'family values pushers' have temper tantrums because their goal is to convert as many as possible, and believe that having the government raise kids in schools to be religious (specifically Christianity usually) should be the law of the land. They then use the straw-man argument and put words into other people's mouths, calling them godless or anti-religious -- when it's really just anti-religious-government.

Our country wasn't founded on "Christian values" per se. Read the constitution. It was based on reason and the senses; you don't need to be a Christian drone to realize what is moral and what isn't... and just because a country was founded to be ethically just and had a mainly Protestant-Christian society, doesn't mean it was set to be Christian. Although, there were debates about that then, as there are now -- guess who won? Read the constitution and you'll find out. It's for the people to do for themselves -- not uncle sam.


However, removing prayer from school is depriving the individuals that DO want to pray. How tolerant is it to deny them prayer?

There is no debate AT ALL about removing prayer from school. Stop listening to Sean Hannity for a second. Seriously, it should give you piece of mind about the issue. The debate isn't about depriving ANYONE from praying. It's about depriving the GOVERNMENT from HOLDING prayer for kids who are growing up in their schools. Some people want the government to do that, and some people want the government to stay out of it. THAT is the real debate.
 montanadharma
Joined: 9/7/2006
Msg: 98
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 11/15/2006 6:22:42 PM
Against it.

My daughter got in trouble for having a bumper sticker on her locker that said "If going to church makes you a Christian then does going to the garage make you a car?"
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 99
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 11/15/2006 7:59:11 PM
izz4us,


What your calling separating the government from personal religion translates into separating the people from the people because each religion teaches that "they" have the monopoly on "God". So, yes the government is being perceived as banning "God" from the school. Why? Because the government is an elected group of individuals who are supposed to represent the people upholding "union" not "separation."

I am saying separating the government from religion in general... it doesn't translate into separating the people from the people. Huge misunderstanding. Just because the government is composed of people, doesn't mean it's the same as "the people". Language problem. There is a difference between the people in school and their parents ("the people"), and the people running the school (the government). The government is not an elected group of individuals doing what the people want no matter what. It is not a pure majority-rules democracy. Another illusion people believe. If 60% of the people wanted slavery back, slavery still could not be allowed. Why? The constitution, and the founders laughed at a mob-rule democracy.


If you want to remove religion and keep God in the schools perhaps you could consider changing your title from being a religion-government separatist, to a religion-government unionist.

It isn't about removing or keeping religion or God in schools. That's such a misuse of language. It's about keeping religious beliefs and prayers to the students, and not putting government officials (teachers) on the podium to lead them into their prayers, or handing a microphone off to a select student or student body to lead the rest of the kids into sponsored prayers. Let them have their own after-school bible clubs, koran clubs, or torah clubs. Let them get together amonst themselves, pray with eachother on their own time, brought on by themselves -- just not have the government itself lead them.



Perhaps we should provide valid and correct information for living instead of teaching them that banning religion from our schools is going to protect them and make their lives more "comfortable".

It's not banning religion. Not at all -- it's a protection of the citizen's positions on religion (religious or not). I know, a lot of folks freak out, and have been conditioned to think that those who don't want government officials leading children into the government's chosen (ie popularly accepted) prayers, are anti-religion, anti-God, and want to ban God & religion from schools. That's hogwash, actually. It's allowing the kids to pray all they want -- not the teacher leading them into prayer. When we ban a government official from leading kids into prayer -- don't lie to yourself believing that it's banning kids from praying -- it's banning teachers from leading them into their own personal prayers or popular ones.
 brawnydog
Joined: 5/12/2006
Msg: 105
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 11/18/2006 1:00:54 PM
We always said "the pledge of allegiance" when I was in school.
We started the day that way. "one nation, under God" in the US.
I don't recall anyone saying which God that was.

No. I won't allow anyone to shove their beliefs down my kid's throat.
And I don't mind if a teacher says "Bless you" if he sneezes.

achoo
 brawnydog
Joined: 5/12/2006
Msg: 106
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 11/18/2006 1:53:43 PM

Interesting, the Pledge was written by a socialist, ...and did not have the words "under God" as part of it.

I wasn't there when it was written. I just recall what I was taught as a child:

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the united states of america
one nation
under god
conceived in liberty and dedicated to oil prophets

....oh, sorry. Wrong pledge. :D



I'd want to see the teacher fired.

I'd scream so loud that they would quit.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 126
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 2/7/2007 9:33:56 PM
It's not only prejudiced, its hysterical black-white fallacy nonsense...

But for the freshly washed brain of the hyper-religious, don't go using any of that fancy lawyerin' tricks like reason, logic or book larnin'... them's is tools of the

In a recent CNN story an American family, one of many, was roundly persecuted in its community of so-called Christian neighbours and eventually forced to leave its town due to being open atheists. Worse still, the so-called panel of journalists that followed the news story were horrendously biased...

Each of them were convinced of the myth of living in a "Christian nation" as the above poster surely seems to be...never having read the words of the Founding Fathers, never having heard of the Treaty of Tripoli, never having studied their own history well enough to realise that this could not be further from the truth and that such a notion was a bigoted one.

Pluralistic and non-theistic education - with a thorough dose of history - is the only way to combat this wretched ignorance that is apparantly still rife in the nation.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 130
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 2/8/2007 9:26:38 AM
Alas most of the above is complete and utter wishful thinking...and the ancient Greeks reported the same thing...

Oh noes! The sky is falling! People no longer honour the gods! Children don't listen to their parents! Morality fails us! Politicians are corrupt! Violence is rife in the streets! Gimme that old time religion! I sure wish it was the way it used to be!

Complete and utter poppycock.

In fact the complaints from the email, changed only for technological parity are almost verbatim and that's what makes it so funny.

The grass was never that green, the age was never that golden...some people were just a touch more naive, some were a touch more supressed and I guess WASP pride in America is just angry that it is taking a hit for that now...

Well tough darts, Cletus. Give a hoot, read a book.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 132
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 2/8/2007 10:00:58 AM
What you teach your children in your homes is between you and them...and you have and should have every right to practice whatever faith you choose...part of your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

The founding fathers recognized that by permitting any one religion a place of honour in the state it could lead to it being seen as the state sanctioning or forcing that religions views on the people...something than many of them had seen done in living memory causing hundreds of thousands of deaths in Europe in wars of Catholic versus Protestant.

What you are talking about however is veering dangerously close to "exclusivity of truth" and you probably know and believe it. But as you may or may not be aware, like the founding fathers, the forum moderators are pluralists and don't tolerate people stating that only they have the "One True Faith" and that every one else is "evil"

So believe what you want in your heart of hearts and teach what you want in your home...and you have every right to...but don't expect everyone else to, and with all due respect, don't get mad when we tell you to put in a sock in it when you say we are all pawns of

Just trying to give you a friendly heads up...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 138
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 2/8/2007 9:25:13 PM
I will pray each and every day of my life until its over. and that's all I have to say about that.


Thank YOU Forrest, Forrest Gump.


hey vulf....GOD BLESS YOU...........


And may the magic unicorns bring you what you wish for as well...* sprinkles sparkly dust to sound of wind chimes *

I used to pay better attention to moon phases but did it just go full and I didn't notice?

I also like the bumper sticker, "Dear Lord, please protect me from your followers"

As far as I am concerned, He has some 'splainin' to do.

good posts by dknickerbocker, shieldvulf, trippy and fishy...ordinarily a simple troll report would be easily filed against the content free crankery of the Flanders'es but for sheer humour value these are worth keeping this time...like badly made scarecrows...

Like how are you supposed to take a debate on prayer in school seriously when THAT is the best rebuttal you can get? Like dialing through Sunday morning AM radio in the Southern half of the Bible belt to hear what part of the Tribulation you are now in...spare me...Part 666 of our "Eschatology-Follies" Series by Pastor I. Ron Butterfly.

I think I will sleep in and miss it this week. Wake me up when the hail of toads starts...

I prefer to see the children get their cultural mores at home, be that religion or in the extreme cases superstition and bigoted-phobic-extremist-insantity, not funded by state tax dollars thanks all the same.

I'd have to draw the line somewhere and I think the Founding Fathers of America made a smart move on that one.
 fetish4u
Joined: 4/18/2007
Msg: 155
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How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 5/26/2007 2:47:11 PM
No prayers in school.Let these religious people send their children to a religious school.
 Blackbry
Joined: 2/24/2006
Msg: 161
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How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 7/22/2007 9:36:28 PM
The nifty thing about prayer...is that you can do it whenever, wherever. You want to pray? Get to class early and bow your head before the bell. I see no reason why there has to be a time to do it as a group. Do it as you walk between classes, do it as you're sitting down for lunch, whatever.

But not every one is going to want to pray, and as such taking time out of their day for it is to take away that much more time they could be learning. Pray on your own, don't bring everyone else into it.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 167
How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 7/26/2007 8:46:57 PM
Deebug,

When I was a girl, we started every morning with prayer--and we didn't have any school shootings, rapes at school, teacher sex predators, etc.

When I was in school, we didn't have a sanctioned morning prayer. We didn't have any school shootings, rapes at school, or teacher sex predators (although there was this one hot teacher, and I wouldn't have minded it myself... lol)

Pray sets a positive tone for the day.

For that individual, sanctioned by that individual. The debate is not about "allowing" kids to pray. The ACLU would be all over a school's a$$, and yes, HAS BEEN, when a school tries to stop kids getting together and even having after-school bible meetings. The debate is about whether the school itself (via teacher, administrator, etc) dispurses religion (ie prayer) to kids.

Let the kids do it themselves. You don't need Uncle Sam as your pastor, sorry.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 168
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How do you feel about prayer in school?
Posted: 7/26/2007 9:12:40 PM

Deebug: I'm all for prayer in the public schools...I say let each person pray in their own way, but PRAY!

bear in mind that those who want prayers in school don't want their kids to have the option of praying, because they already have it. The ones who want prayer in school are christians that want their religion forced on non-christians. That is what you're fighting for, forcing your beliefs down the throats of those of different beliefs.

So when you say you're all for prayer in schools and to let each person pray in their own way - that's a contradiction. You really want each person to pray the christian way.
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