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 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 67
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ? Page 2 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
at Jadyn


Therefore, Jews for Jesus is a COMPLETE CONTRADICTION. The very definition of a Jew believing that Jesus Christ is the savior is Christianity.


......i believe you are wrong in many respects:.....first of all, you are forgetting that JC and his apostles & early followers were ALL of the Jewish faith and extraction!!!......and NONE of them was ever passing themselves as anything other than Jews, especially Saul of Tarsus............JC never came to start a whole new religion called "christianity" in opposition to Judiasm, he came in fulfillment of the scriptures.......it is non-believing Jews and Pagans of the Roman world who dubbed those Jews who were followers of JC as "christians" or "christian" sect of Jews!
---------------------


To me, it is ridiculous for anyone to claim that they are Jewish and believe that Jesus is the son of God. That means Christian.


.......you as a Jew, certain have the choice NOT to accept JC as the Messiah, BUT those Jews who do accept him, are certainly NO LESS jewish that those who don't!....Lets suppose that somebody should come along tomorrow whom you BELIEVE to be the Messiah, you wouldn't be any less Jewish than you are TODAY!......remember that it is the aspiration of every true Jew to welcome in the Messiah as a fulfillment of these scriptures, so if you read the book of Daniel 7;13......you will see that reference is made to "one like the son of man"....whose dominion is everlasting and cannot be destroyed, and this is in sharp contrast to earthly kingdoms/Messiahs....so in essence it points to a Messiah of Divine origin or influence!
------------------------------


If you believe in the Jewish religion, you believe that the messiah has not come.


......with due respect, but who are you (as a Jew) to say that in order to be Jewish one must affirm that the Messiah has not come???....then when is a Jew supposed to believe that the Messiah has come?..because if you read Daniel chapt 7 and even Isaiah 53, you can see that when the Messiah comes he does not establish an earthly presence!!!!
---------------------


The BASIS of Judaism is the belief in ONE God.


......so is "christianity".......JC never instructed his followers to pray and bow to him, he always defered to God, since he came only to fullfill the mission.
------------------


The very definition of a Jew believing that Jesus Christ is the savior is Christianity.


.....no, you are wrong!...the definition of a Jew who believes that JC is the savior, is simply a Jew who chooses to believe that the Messiah has come in the form of JC!
----------------


Did that help at all?


...No,....but i hope that what i wrote here certainly helps you see things other than in black and white!
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 69
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/7/2007 4:04:27 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus

One of the better cited wiki entries on this subject with plenty of links to web locations that give VERY thorough explanations as to why Judaism does not view Jesus as the Messiah nor Messianic Jews as following anything other than Christianity under another label.

Certainly you cannot "give up" your genetic or tribal "Jewishness" by practicing or not practicing a particular faith. But you can't put plastic milk dispensers on a mule and call it a Guernsey either...and Messianic Judaism is not Judaism in any way, shape or form.

But there are some Jews who practice it.

As Rabbi Tovia Singer says, the best gift a Jewish parent or grandparent can give to their children is a good Jewish education...it would help put him out of a job and that would make him happy.

As to the interpretation of certain biblical passages, without going off-topic I think one will find that one's predisposition to accept a certain conclusion rather than reading what is actually said in context and the original tongue, at least when it comes to Tanach, is going to skew the results somewhat...I will tend to defer to a rabbi rather than a pastor when I want to know what was said in the Tanach. Don't go to an auto mechanic when you need a watch repaired.
 workerbee68
Joined: 7/22/2006
Msg: 72
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/8/2007 2:38:14 AM
So Jadyn07, when your messiah comes what will you be called then? Certainly not a Jew, right. If the Jews that believed Jesus was the Messiah can no longer be called Jews then you will no longer be a Jew when the "One" comes that you believe to be the Messiah. Especially if not accepted by the whole Jewish faith as a whole. Which would probably never happen.
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 101
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/8/2007 8:02:44 PM
at jayden


but in Jewish faith, a messiah is the deliverer. So if you're Jewish, you cannot believe that a messiah is just a prophet, and THEREFORE if you believe Jesus was the messiah, you are not Jewish.


^......so then by this logic,....the highly learned Lubovitch Jews,{who had believed and put all their resources in the notion that their grand rebbe, (M. schneerson) was to be the Messiah} are NOT (or were not) Jews because they believed that the Messiah was somebody other than who you (within the majority of Jews)would find acceptable!
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 103
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/8/2007 9:44:27 PM

Please show some verses from your original doctrine to support this. NOT some rabbinic (manmade) cr*p. I want to see if it can be traced to Moses own mouth.

I don’t believe Moses would say anything to that notion. Hence, unless you can show some verse from your ultimate doctrine – this (if true at all) must be a manmade innovation or traditional cr*p. This, most likely had NOTHING to do with the real teachings of Moses.

Prove me wrong!
Then I can begin to say - Jewish people are following a religion that makes no sense to me. Why would a real God set such standards or restrictions to be a Jew?

I am waiting for those verses… Otherwise it is just you and few other who think a traditional cr*p is really the original teachings of Moses.


Just a word about this notion that I often see creeping up in these debates about Judaism. I have never proclaimed any expertise on the matter but even my limited study of it can point out a big fat non-starter when I see it...the old libel about "made-up rabbinic crap" and "rabbinic traditions" as opposed to "real scriptural truth."

The Oral Law. Not acknowledged by a lot of Christian apologists, or some practicioners of Messianic Judaism, very germane to the subject matter...often described as "made up rabbinic crap" yet very often illustrated in the Hebrew Scriptures. Once again I am inclined to point out the necessity of expertise in the area when researching...ask a Rabbi if you want to answer a question about Judaism, not a Christian...preferably before a website...failing that I guess a website written by a Rabbi or rabbinical student will do. Once again I suggest Rabbi Singer's lecture on the Oral Law but for those who can't take time out of their busy lives for an interesting hour...

http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/howtoask.html
http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/oral-imperative.html
http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/whynotwritten.html
http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/notchaotic.html

http://www.beingjewish.com/

Overall the above is an excellent website and if you want to check the individual's CV it is there...it's not fringey stuff he's talking about.

As far as the rest of it goes...ultimate doctrine and other such nonsense...with all due respect that is such a silly question, even for this forum, trying to frame a response other than "go soak your head" is proving a real challenge. It's a RELIGION. You can accept the traditions as they are given to you by their originators, like it or lump it... but to cherry pick some as official and say the rest are somehow less "divinely inspired" A) because you didn't bother to learn about them, or B) couldn't be bothered to learn about them or C) found out they were part of an oral tradition as opposed to a written one and you weren't invited to the club...

well that is just pretty obtuse. But don't worry, you're in a big line up of cherry pickers before you who like piecemeal religion. I'm sure the Jewish people will go on doing what they do anyway without the validation of Christian apologists or anyone else telling them what is or isn't a valid part of their faith...


 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 105
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/8/2007 11:15:41 PM
@ jad


My logic is that if a person believes that Jesus CHRIST was the messiah, that person is Christian. That is all I have said. Anything else you think I meant is purely speculation on your behalf.


.......your logic actually says that if a 'Jew' believes that some figure (whether it be JC or the late grand Rebbe schneerson) to be the Messiah...they are automatically catapulted outta Judiasm into some other religion as catagorized by those observers who do not share that same belief!
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 110
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/9/2007 11:39:38 AM
Until you actually start looking up the material presented, shadowdancing, which is vast, and well supported, there is no point in representing the entire case for the Oral Law here in these forums. It has been done elsewhere by more qualified individuals than myself and I frankly don't see the need to convince you to make a point when a simple citation will do.


Traditional practices and religion is NOT the same thing. In order to learn the true teachings of any religion – one MUST discard all traditional practices that contradicts with the said religion’s principal teachings and makes the religion look wrongfully biased towards any direction. I am not interested to know what certain rabbinic nincompoops came up with – I am trying to see the real teachings left behind by (primarily) Moses and (prior to him) maybe other divinely inspired individuals. This is why I only acknowledge stuff from their ultimate doctrine.


This is still silly. You have no way of knowing whether the Written tradition is the only complete tradition or Oral material is part of the real tradition or not. Nada. Bupkiss. Just because one is written and one is not. You have written instructions but all they are, for all you know is the shorthand. You might not have any idea WHAT it actually means without the rest of the recipe. Your ethnocentric hubris is astounding. We are left with your cast aspersion, and the common one from the history of Christendom that the Oral Law is made up Rabbinic nonsense...however, as is established quite irrevocably within the citations I noted before, solid references to the Oral Law are noted within Written Scripture...which is a shorthand for the complete tradition of Judaism. The fact that you and of course others have not acknowledged this is not particularly special...but doesn't win you any brownie points in a debate...and still leaves you with nothing but a cast aspersion.

I'm not surprised you couldn't follow Rabbi Singer...but HIS books? What his books? He used the extant Bibles for proofs...common translations and then the Hebrew language. How much more common do you need than that? What could you not make sense about from that? If that's over your head then it's back to Theology 101 for you my friend.
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 115
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/10/2007 7:02:19 AM
at jaden


Please don't tell me what I do and do not believe.


^.......your own train of thought expresses what you do or don't believe, not me!....if you label those who believe in JC (as messiah) as "non-jews" ....then the same must apply to those jews who have selected some other figure to be the Messiah....to state otherwise is at best, faulty logic or at worst, it is plain bigotry!.....assuming you are not bigoted, then what you are saying is that any jew who happens to believe that a certain Messiah(that you do not believe in) has arrived, is no longer a jew.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 117
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/10/2007 12:19:04 PM

I was expecting a response from you regarding – whether or not Jesus is considered a “prophet” by all Jews – as claimed by Jadyn07 (a self proclaimed Jew) who obviously spoke for all Jews in her post#98. I thought you will shed some light on that. That is very close to the topic at hand because if all Jews do accept Jesus as a prophet then I really need to seek more information between the difference between a “messiah” and a “prophet”. In that case – the difference between a Messianic and a Jew will lie between those definitions.


If you check out that wiki entry that i posted on msg 69, it is actually quite well researched. With all due respect to Jadyn and her beliefs, I personally have not ever heard of any mainline Jewish faith organization referring to Jesus as a prophet. Some groups, due to political correctness or a desire to maintain ecumenical peace may be softsoaping things but the official position of Orthodox Judaism has always been if there was such a person - and this was always held in doubt - he was no prophet...but not relevant to Judaism and not the Messiah.

A prophet is someone receiving divine wisdom from God. The big "M" Moshiach, relevant to this discussion, is the anointed mortal representative of God that heralds the Messianic Age when God makes himself known to Mankind and establishes a time of Peace and Harmony on Earth, rebuilds the Temple, yada yada. The Moshiach would also be a prophet. Does that make it any clearer? Hope I was of assistance...back to my chilling breakfast
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 119
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/11/2007 6:48:43 AM
at open


It is not called bigotry, in religion, it's called heresy. As a Christian, I'd thought you'd be familiar with that word, sum1.


........i'm talking about bigotry toward one (presumed) heresy...the hersey in question is that of christianity as seen through the eyes of Jews.
------------


However, the Messianic Jews, the people in the topic, believe in the Christian Trinity, making them Christians.


.......what pple don't understand is that multiple personhood is not inconsistent with Judiasm!......the term 'son(s) of god' is seen frequently in the OT (genesis & Daniel)...the 'spirit' also mentioned......and the word 'abba' denotes the Father.

the word 'trinity' was a convenient term which as i believe, was coined years after the crucifixion, done to simply package the 3 into one word.....it is just semantics and not religious concepts that was altered by this word!.......the fact that a Messianic jew would believe in a trinity concept is thus of no surprise!......and therefore, wouldn't disqualify them as being jews at all!.......the issue of contention would be whether or not they accept the virgin birth of the Messiah!....if they do then it puts them more in the camp of strict christianity!


hey claim Israeli citizenship under the Right of Return; the state says they forfeited their rights to immigrate as Jews when they accepted Jesus as the messiah.


.......this ruling is something that was pushed into law by pressure exerted from the orthodox (and ultra-orthdox) Jews so as to prevent the free influx of what THEY define to be non-jews......but this is not a belief that is widely accepted!
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 121
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/13/2007 9:53:42 PM
at open


The terms "sons of God", in the OT, refered to Angels.


.......and which 'expert' has told you this?.........actually, anything refering to being 'sons' essentially means either someone (or a group of individuals) who are given a mandate or directives from "god".......that is, someone having authority by way of an 'anointing' of sorts.

if you read genesis 6; 1-2....you will see what i mean.....it would be ridiculous to think it was refering to Angels here!...if so, then how do you explain these "angels' coming down, taking wifes, and much less copulating with them???...............you would make a heck of a lot more sense if you had said that they were 'space-aliens' instead of angels!
------------------


There are a number of "sons of God", that aren't God, in the bible


......thats right, and then its up to the reader to determine what the purpose of their anointment was in the context that each case is presented!
--------------------


Now they come along and start calling themselves Messianic Jews, so they had a new ruling on the law. It's the same law, just different terminology.


......its those who are in power that actually define terms and status, usually based on political reasons!........for instance, if, from the begining, Israel had a law that said, anyone of maternal jewish descent is (and will always) be a Jew regardless of their view on who the messiah is then i'd bet that there would be no one disputing the validity of this law!
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 123
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/17/2007 10:26:34 PM
at open


That was the common, pre-5th century belief. I know you prefer the rulings of the Roman Catholic Church of that, post-Constantine era, but it wasn't the original view.


.......the original version does not always coincide with correctness!.......the sites that you put up don't hold anything convincing.........in essence, the term "sons of god" has been believed to represent angels by mere de-fault!......on quick observation, it seems like an easy fit but not quite......if you read genesis 19, in the destruction of S&D, the first line makes reference to 2 angels, and NOT '2 sons of God (or heaven)' as you'll have in Gen 6;2.....and why would this be?.......especially in the same book?........if son of God and angels are interposable then what does it say for the early christains (of Jewish origin) who 1st refered to JC as the son of God?...........and of Gen 6;2, what is truly meant here?... .....was it put together to supernaturally explain a social phenomenon that later transpired?.......what was so different in the definition between those labeled as 'sons of god' and those called angels sent by god (in Gen 19).......there are lots of opinions out there and that is all there is!!!......in my view, Gen 6 explains a significant social turn of event...the key in this passage is the very first statement that says 'when men began to increase in numbers on the earth'.......and it seems clear here that there was some sort of intermixing with a type of pple previously unrecognized, but whose grandeur made them feel that they were 'sons of god'...or sons of heaven....what convinced them of that is obviously not clear!....furthermore, the phrase or title: 'son of' was quite commonly used as a point of reference to a lineage as it is today in that part of the world!.......what ensues in Gen 6;5 is just an anthropomorphic dissertation to explain the cataclysm to come!


Explain to me how that isn't Christianity.


the statement is merely of Jews who happen to believe that the Messiah has come in the form of JC....the notion that he is equated on the same level as the father doesn't make them any less Jewish.......belief in the 3 persons is something that makes itself manifest on its own once you recognize and deem the Messiah to be of Divine origin.
 thebomb1971
Joined: 6/22/2005
Msg: 128
OK SHADOWDANCING ---Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 4/17/2007 8:22:01 PM
"I should stop eating this sourdough bread, then...."

What's wrong with sourdough? Does it have to do with leavened bread over passover?
 sbbeef
Joined: 10/24/2006
Msg: 136
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/14/2007 6:58:11 PM
First of all if you would bother reading the Bible instead of letting others interpret it you would find out that Rabbi Yeshua and his apostles were "Jewish" and the early Messianic people were "Observant". What is called Christianity today is a corrupted form of Judaism because of the prejudices against Jews by Constantine and many other refugees from the invading Parthians (Germans (Gad), Prussians, Scythians (Saxons), and other tribes). Well, good luck in your road to enlightenment. Sincerely, Michael J. Wellington at sbbeef@gmail.com
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 137
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/20/2007 1:53:39 PM

The greatest majority of modern day "Jews" are not genetic or racial Israelites (about 90% or so according to the Jewish scholar's own estimates). They are not YHWHs' "chosen people" as most people misidentify them today, and Jesus was not "Jewish" in the way a previous poster asserted. Modern day "Jews" are descended from a Mongolian/ Turkish race known as the Khazars. The Khazars adopted the religion of Judaism between the 7th and 9th centuries AD. This is where the Ashkenazi, or "German Jew" comes from that comprise the majority of Jews today. Google the terms Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews.


You could believe this crap, which is often cited on the same web sites as white supremacists and Holocaust deniers, or you could demand that the poster either produce real information from mainstream genetic science that confirms it...or withdraw the bullsh*t claim which is the same kind of goose-stepping nonsense that you always here from Jewish persecutors and should be not given the time of day.

Well do you have any REAL science to back it up from mainstream, peer-reviewed geneticists that are not from the lunatic fringe? We won't hold our breath...



The Jewish religion is based on a book called the Talmud. The Talmud comes from ancient Babylon, not the Hebrew religion of the Bible. Judaism isn't based on the Bible as most people today believe. The Talmud is a book of laws written over the ages by Jewish Rabbis. These laws completely contradict the Biblical 10 commandments, and the laws of YHWH. Judaism rejects YHWHs' laws for the laws their Rabbis made up, and thereby elevate their Rabbis to the status of God (There is even a part of their Talmudic literature that states a Rabbi got into an argument with YWHW, and the Rabbi won the argument!). Judaism is a humanistic religion, where Biblical religions are monotheistic.


I honestly haven't seen propaganda like this since Der Stuhrmer was last in print. As the poster very thinly treads the line of promoting hatred against an identifiable group, (which is illegal in Canada and on Canadian web sites) by spreading this malicious misinformation let me clear up something for you - the above quote is completely untrue and the poster knows it. Search any Jewish website, any religious tolerance website and even any mainstream Christian website and you will not find such a blatantly agenda driven misrepresentation of the Jewish faith there, nor such a misrepresentation of one of the co-religionists of the Peoples of the Book.

Any time you see the words "talmudism", "Pharisaism" or "Rabbinic" used in the pejorative you can be sure these are buzz words for a Jew hater, new covenant theologist or a white supremacist, make no mistake about it. This material is frequently disseminated by people like Ernst Zundel, Stormfront and others as part of their Anti-Semitic, White Christian agenda. Ordinarily this would be "Godwinizing" a debate...alas this is one of the few times it is truly relevant and that indeed is a sad thing.

AS TO THE TALMUD...coming from Babylon...what stupidity.

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

This is one of the better sites about the Talmud on the net and as it concludes quite rightly there are MANY lies, the above quoted unsupported drivel among them, about the Talmud floating about on the internet. The poster above posts this unmitigated poppycock with no reputable support...it's essentially just more fringe group hate fiction against Jews.

This site essentially takes apart and dismisses EVERY SINGLE ONE of the posters frivalous and hateful claims about the Talmud. To reprint them here would be an exercise...however if the poster continues in their excremental nonsense, I would be more than happy to do so...I would suggest to them going to the site now and reading it because you'd have a long way to go to prepare a rebuttal to any one of them.

The irony of the last sentence in the quote regarding monotheism and Christianity is just too silly to bear focussing on.



Today honest discussion and debate is often met with slander and accusations when it comes to talking about anything Jewish as well. This is probably why your friend acts the way he does when it comes up.


Like referring to Jews as "not Jews", idolatyrs, deceivers, hypocrites and persecutors as well as deicides...slander and accusation indeed. Rich irony.

I encourage anyone genuinely interested in the Talmud and wanting to learn about it from real authors versed in Hebrew and not agenda driven hatemongers with an axe to grind, feel free to check that site, or ask your local rabbi as they would be more than willing to help you in most cases if you are genuinely interested in learning. Unlike what some may tell you, they do not poison wells, steal unbaptised Christian babies to harvest blood for Purim cakes, or transmit the plague... .

Only first-cousin-marrying-bigots from North America do that...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 140
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 12:03:12 AM


Time to move past anti-semitism and false history.


Well said sir. This New Covenant theology is just more of the same British-Israelism mixed with a healthy dash of the Christian Identity Movement...crackpot nonsense from the 19th Century which is embraced only by the lunatic fringe - remember Willie Martin, Tim McVeigh, Randy "Ruby Ridge" Weaver and others, and frequently posted on sites like Stormfront and those hosted by Aryan Nations and the KKK. Fortunately it has been thoroughly debunked by modern science, archaeology, genetics...in fact to anyone with any knowledge of the books of the day it would have never gotten off the ground.

A collection of essays in the public domain entitled "History of the Ten Lost Tribes
by David Baron"

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ten_Lost_Tribes_-_Anglo-Israelism_Examined

Add these to the mix...

British-Israelism: A Mirage http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mirage.htm
British-Israelism Refuted http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/wallace.htm
Dogma Of Christian Identity http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/identity_dogma.htm]
Christian Identity: A religion for White Racists http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/identity.htm
The Real Truth About The Khazars http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/khazars.htm
Why Judaism is not A Race http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/j4j_not.htm
The Fraud of The Protocols Of the Elders Of Zion
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/protocols.htm

Willie Martin and The Christian Identity on Trial - http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/index.htm

That should be just about enough of that nonsense...thanks for playing.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 142
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 10:00:03 AM
Nice try but the link I posted to the Khazars totally debunks that myth:

The Real Truth About The Khazars http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/khazars.htm

Your highly out of context quotes from Rabbis about the Talmud and additional myths about its origin and content and handily dealt with here:

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

You won't find any more "lebensraum" in this forum because your material is offtopic here as well. The subject is Messianic Judaism not Anglo-Israel poppycock.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 144
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 1:26:03 PM


Once again with the slander. For this garbage you spew at people who disagree with you to be true, and in order for your position to remain consistent, would mean that:


My position is quite evident to anyone viewing it, no one needs a strawman being built by you to see what it is or isn't.



Slandering and misrepresenting what people say along with their sources is mighty handy when you've got no valid argument, and I realize that. It's your favorite tactic to avoid honest debate and analysis where your own beliefs are concerned, and you enjoy resorting to it very much.


Rather than reprint the entirety of those sites, which dismiss racist propaganda point for point using actual cited facts instead of crackpot nonsense from two centuries ago mixed with out of context quotes, ad mauseum, I'd rather just stay on topic for this thread. I just posted the links.



Talmudism, Judaism, and Zionism are no more above honest scrutiny, debate, or disagreement than any other race, religion, or government on the face of the planet. And just because people, Jew and non-Jew alike, so disagree, debate, and scrutinize in those regards doesn't mean they hate Jews! How ridiculous, and what a shameful practice to cloak attempts at silencing free speech.

"Free speech" does not give one the right to utter "fighting words", shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, or on a Canadian website, promote hatred against identifiable groups...and in the Religion forums of PoF it also doesn't allow one to dehumanize or demean specific religious or cultural groups either. Debating Judaism and Zionism is a perfectly acceptable practice. The only people who use the word "Talmudism" however are historical revisionists and hatemongers and those who wish to de-Judaize Judaism. Honest scrutiny would be a new practice indeed for those people.

Now one may disagree with them all you like and post incorrect material about them...and when someone calls bull**** about it, and asks them to produce verifiable mainstream data to confirm their story, they may evade all they like...but don't try to call it denial of free speech. That's just being a crybaby when the facts make them look like a tool.

If you want to discuss those issues, start a new thread.

This one is about Messianic Judaism and doesn't need hijacking by an historical revisionist or fringe believer with an agenda to promote.
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 147
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 11:15:25 AM

If you keep the food laws then you're not following Christian beliefs. Jesus said that it's not what goes into the body that makes you unclean, but what comes out. According to Christian doctrines you're longer longer supposed to keep the Law.


All law? Does that mean that a true christian can not impose a moral code on others because the law does not apply? I actually have something to say when people quote the mosaic laws and use them to judge people? Sorry, I think this is priceless.

On Jews... I really don't know much about it except I thought Jews were a people, bloodline through their mother. Though I also know some people who have converted to Judaism(usually in cases of marriage). I think my confusion is because there are "born Jews" and converted Jews. That's a little confusing...would it be more "Hebrew's" as a people and "Jewish" as a religion? I am aware that there are many sects of Judaism also.

I proclaim my ignorance in this matter.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 149
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 9:27:54 PM
Like to clear up a few facts:
1) Jews are a race
Jews are a race and Judaism is a religion.
Jews have this very strange law: once a Jew, always a Jew.
Just like being any other nationality. If you're born a Brit, you're a Brit no matter where you go.

Now, if this is true, what does it mean for a Jew to practise another religion?
It means that he's not practising his religion. He's not doing the right thing.
But he's still a Jew.

If he's still a Jew, what difference does it make if he doesn't practise Judaism?
The answer is again simple, but unexpected. Jews have a different POV on Heaven than most people. Heaven is not an either-you-go-or-you-don't-place for Jews. You go to Heaven, but the more good things you did in this world, the better Heaven is for you in the next. So if you don't keep your religion, you still get to Heaven, but you get a billion billionth of the Heaven you would have gotten if you did the right thing.

What if you thought you were doing the right thing?
True intent and actions are the most important. If you truly believe that you are doing the right thing, you get rewarded as if you were right. But G-d's a clever guy. He puts you in situations that show if you are faking it or not, to be replayed later when you get to the gates of Heaven.

2) Does the Talmud come from Babylonia?
Depends on your viewpoint.
If you believe that the date of first publication is what's important, and that the NT comes from England, because the NT in the King James Bible that most people use was first published there in 1611, then yes, because the Babylonian Talmud was first published in Babylonia (Iraq). However, if you believe that the information in the NT is what's important and Jesus spoke in the Middle East around the First Century, then you have to consider that the Talmud is composed of quotes from people going from the Third Century all the way back to Moses. In fact, the Talmud is really a collection of discussions on the Bible and the Laws written in it. Every law in the Talmud can be traced back to the Bible. However, it is acknowledged that some can be shown easier than others.

Either way, it's a collection of discussions containing quotes of people from the Third Century all the way back to Moses. A lot of people are quoted who travelled back and forth between Israel and Babylonia. In particular, Rabbi Yochanan lived in Israel and ran away to Babylonia to escape the Roman Occupation. He often quotes Rabbi (Rabbi Yahudah Hanassi) who lived his whole life in Israel.

3) Where do the terms Jew and Israel come from?
The OT never mentions Jews. It talks about the "sons of Israel" (Jacob). In Hebrew, the word "sons" (Banim, from the word Boneh = "to build) meaning children you have brought up, pupils, or descendants. The word Yeled (from the word Yalad = "to give birth") means biological children. So the term "sons of Israel" means descendants of Jacob.

The land known as Israel is referred to as "the land of Israel", meaning the land promised to Jacob and his descendants in the OT.

The word Jew comes from the Yiddish / German "Jude" (pronounced Yudah in German), short for Judah-ite, meaning one of the tribe of Judah. This term is generally used to refer to modern Jews because after the Assyrian Invasion, 10 of the 12 tribes (13 if you count Ephraim and Menasheh as 2 separate tribes) were supposed to have been exiled, and were never found. This left the tribe of Yehudah, the tribe of Levi, the tribe of Benjamin (situated as a strip inside the region of Yehudah) and a few of each tribe who were in the region occupied by Yehudah at the time. As the tribes of Levi and Bejamin were always very small, and the tribe of Yehudah was always extremely large, the tribe of Yehudah was by far the bulk of the population. So the descendants of Israel became known as the Yehudim. As the Romans wrote a Y as a J, the Yehudim became known as the Judaim, which in German became the Juden, and in singular form, Jude (Yudah), which was read by English speakers as Jewde, shortened to Jew.
As you can see, Judaim (Yudah-im) was read as Judaism by English speakers, and was taken to be the English word for the religion.

Just thought you'd like to know.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 150
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 10:50:35 PM
The imputation that the anti-Semite is using is that the Talmud, because it was written or compiled during the Captivity, is somehow of Babylonian origin, is therefore a product of Babylonian religion. This is, as is obvious, both a logical and religious absurdity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud


Since the Exile to Babylonia in 586 BCE, there had been Jewish communities living in Babylonia as well as in Judea, as many of the captives never returned home. From then till the Talmudic period the Babylonian Jewish population increased through natural growth as well as migration. The most important of the Jewish centres were Nehardea, Nisibis, Mahoza, Pumbeditha and Sura. It was no longer necessary for scholars to travel regularly to Israel to gather authentic traditions.

Talmud Bavli (the "Babylonian Talmud") comprises the Mishnah and the Babylonian Gemara, the latter representing the culmination of more than 300 years of analysis of the Mishnah in the Babylonian Academies. The foundations of this process of analysis were laid by Rab, a disciple of Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi. Tradition ascribes the compilation of the Babylonian Talmud in its present form to two Babylonian sages, Rav Ashi and Ravina. Ashi was president of the Sura Academy from 375 to 427 CE. The work begun by Ashi was completed by Ravina, who is traditionally regarded as the final Amoraic expounder. Accordingly, traditionalists argue that Ravina’s death in 499 CE is the latest possible date for the completion of the redaction of the Talmud. However, even on the most traditional view a few passages are regarded as the work of a group of rabbis who edited the Talmud after the end of the Amoraic period, known as the Saboraim or Rabbanan Savora'e (meaning "reasoners" or "considerers").

The question as to when the Gemara was finally put into its present form is not settled among modern scholars. Some, like Louis Jacobs, argue that the main body of the Gemara is not simple reportage of conversations, as it purports to be, but a highly elaborate structure contrived by the Saboraim, who must therefore be regarded as the real authors. On this view the text did not reach its final form until around 700. Some modern scholars use the term Stammaim (from the Hebrew Stam, meaning "closed", "vague" or "unattributed") for the authors of unattributed statements in the Gemara. (See eras within Jewish law.)


The site that I referenced before basically addresses and answers any of the dissembling regarding any of these comon slurs against the Talmud and the last two posters have as well...and thank you gentlemen for posting...which as I am sure you also know is a mitzvah and may Hashem bless you for doing so.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 151
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 11:31:48 PM

1) Jews are a race

Simply put - this is wrong. Not false, just plain wrong. To further comment on this...


once a Jew, always a Jew.
Just like being any other nationality.

Yes...and you could call Jews a nation. But "nation" and "race" are very much different concepts. A "Brit" or a "Jew" may be white or Asian, but a white Brit is not the same race as an Asian Brit, while an Asian Jew and an Asian Brit are the same race. The term "race" has various definitions, but they all include a concept of distinctive features and relatedness. All members of a race are more closely related to each other than to any member of any other race. This cannot apply to Jews. Genetically unrelated peoples, including blacks and Asians have converted to Judaism over the millenia. Likewise, some descendants of the first Jews have converted to Christianity, Islam, etc. Thus: some of those with Jewish ancestry are not Jews. By definition, they would be racial Jews. Many of those who are Jews do not have that original ancestry. By definition they would be Jews, but not racial Jews. Two violations of the concept of "race". Among humans, we typically recognize three or four races. Among other organisms, we would consider these to be subspecies or species, though this is both politically and socially unacceptable where humans are concerned, as well as taxonomically flawed. Caucasians, Mongoloids, and Australasians form physically and genetically distinct and identifiable lineages more or less unique and separable from all others. Although blacks [negroids] are usually recognized as a race, they are actually the one group which cannot be recognized as a race. The reason being, the other three races are all derivatives of Africans. By recognizing them separately, what remains of the Africans is a large number of separate, distinctive physical and genetic groups, each one equal to the other three races. "Negroid" would be a catch-all for multiple biological races. Treating them as one would necessitate including whites, Asians, and aboriginals...which would be exactly the same as calling them "human". Similarly, calling Jews a race would necessitate chopping Caucasians into a large number of smaller "races" of equal genetic and physical status. That's IF Jews were a homogeneous group, which they are not. So no, not by any stretch of the imagination a race. "Nation" if you must.
Talmud - out of my league. Sounds good.
Etymology - The specifics are largely out of my knowledge base, but I would agree with the argument.

To the ACTUAL topic...
I would have to say that 2000 years ago, one would consider a Messianic Jew to be Christian. However, what Christianity is now is distinctly different from messianic judaism, and to use the term Christian would be highly misleading. It would seem that there is actually very little to separate a messianic Jew from other Jews, so considering them as such would seem most appropriate. It doesn't sound to me like there's actually ANYTHING to disqualify them as such. All Jews believe in a messiah, do they not? His coming is expected, but since that is considered to be a future event, then the established writings could never account for his arrival, at any time. So long as one follows Jewish teachings, there's nothing to preclude the follower of any messiah being Jewish.

Besides, many would seem to argue that there are only two choices - Jewish or Christian. Christian Jews are called Christian. Mohamadan Christians or Mohamadan messianic Jews are called Moslems. Maybe messianic Jews are not Christian, not Jewish, but messianic Jews...or just Messianic. "Yeshuite" might be confused with "Jacobite" or "Jesuit" though.
 Raveninns
Joined: 7/19/2005
Msg: 152
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/29/2007 5:26:43 AM

Real Jews still believe the messiah is coming and that it will mostly likely be someone of Davidic descent.


I must admit that I know very little of this subject.

But this little tidbit piqued my interest. Can someone tell me if Jewish people keep family trees that clearly show David's bloodlines? Can a contemporary today claim to be a descendant of David? If the descendant of David finally shows up, how will he prove it? Or is it understood that the entire Jewish contingent is by default a descendant of David?

I am truly not trying to be contentious here. Just want to know a little more.

Cheers, Raven
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 154
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/29/2007 5:47:35 PM

But this little tidbit piqued my interest. Can someone tell me if Jewish people keep family trees that clearly show David's bloodlines? Can a contemporary today claim to be a descendant of David? If the descendant of David finally shows up, how will he prove it? Or is it understood that the entire Jewish contingent is by default a descendant of David?
Not me personally, but I have heard of people who have a full record of their lineage on both paternal and maternal lines, and some of these people have a full paternal line going back to King David. My father's family have detailed their lineage going back about 12 generations. My mother's family goes back about 5 generations. Most Jews I know of, are proud of their family history, and take great pride in knowing who they are descended from, and who they are related to. With most Jews I have met and known, the only game more popular than "who are you related to?" is Jewish Geography aka: "do you know so-and-so? he lives in your town."
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 156
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/29/2007 9:14:14 PM

That should be enough to put to rest the point of religion and race

Sorry, it is not. One or two genetic markers specifically sought do not make a race. These genetic studies only seek markers within the target population. They do not seek markers in outside populations, nor do they seek other markers FROM outside populations. Thus, they do not show overall relatedness, either within the study group, or between the study group and outgroups. The studies have an inherint bias, they do not evaluate overall relatedness, and they don't use adequate data to reach a conclusion of race [the studies themselves only conclude "line of descent", which is a far cry from "race"]. There's more, but basically, the conclusion is so far off the mark that I lose track of which flaws are forefront in my mind.

Your first link contains no science and is irrelevant.
Your second link starts with a summary which does a great job of showing that jews are not a distinct and homogeneous group. To whit:

Eastern European Jews have a significant Eastern Mediterranean element which manifests itself in a close relationship with Kurdish, Armenian, Palestinian Arab, Lebanese, Syrian, and Anatolian Turkish peoples

None of these are races, and there is no indication that any are distinct - only that all are closely related.

the Y-DNA haplogroups J and E, which are typical of the Middle East, are so common among them

IE, not unique, and widely shared with the neighbors.

At the same time, there are traces of European (including Western Slavic) and Khazar ancestry among European Jews. Ethiopian Jews mostly descend from Ethiopian Africans who converted to Judaism, but may also be related to a lesser extent to Yemenite Jews

IE, not a unique or homogeneous group.

What we can say for sure is that Jewish Y-DNA tends to come from the Middle East

IE, not unique and endemic to the groups. Not distinct from the neighbors.

studies that take into account mtDNA show that many Jewish populations are related to neighboring non-Jewish groups maternally

Again, not unique or endemic, as well as being strong evidence of outcrossing into adjacent cultures...which is the same trend suggested by Y chromosome haplotypes. mtDNA is only really useful to demonstrate strongly UNrelated groups. No matter how much inbreeding takes place, ONE outside female with female descendants will leave a pattern of outside mtDNA, and ONE outside male with male descendants will leave a pattern of outside X chromosomes. A six-foot population with blonde hair, blue eyes, which includes but ONE 5 foot person with black hair, roman nose, and brown eyes can easily leave NO trace of the the out-stock's genes after a couple centuries. If that one person was female though, and all females in the population descend from her...they will have her mtDNA. A comprehensive study will show that the strongest ties are with other blue-eyed blonde-haired groups. The mtDNA will create an illusion of strong ties with black-haired brown-eyed groups. It's an illusion borne of not understanding the data.

comparisons with living populations appear to be adequate to trace geographic roots

IE, they're Caucasians, more or less in the strictest sense. The "Kurdish, Armenian, Palestinian Arab, Lebanese, Syrian, and Anatolian Turkish peoples" might take exception to being called the "Jewish race", a definition necessitated by this highly flawed use of the data. All of these are, however, definitively part of the Caucasian race
The remaining sections of that site refer to a large number of traits which are not unique to Jews, but are shared with various other neighboring ethnic groups [ethnic does not equal race, though they are often subsets OF a race]. It actually refers specifically to jewish lineages which are NOT "pure".
The third site refers to the markers in a general sense, noting their persistance after 3000 years. It emphasizes genetic cohesiveness, but that does not define a race on its own. There are many genetically cohesive groups of varying size, but only the largest and most distinctive, with shared genes and physical features and a common geography and ancestry dating back tens of thousands of years. In this case, "race" is a deliberate obfuscation. The word is used outside it's normal definition, leading to a false equating of several related ethnic groups with large biogeographical entities. In other words, it's a lie.
Your next link reiterates the data again. Argumentum ad nauseum fallacy - repeating the data doesn't make it any more useful.. Be that as it may, once again, the very article you cite points out that male and female Jews have different ancestries! Either way you look at it, this is a problem. It shows that the data set is too small to draw comprehensive conclusions, and it shows a minimum of TWO origins. Thus, these data not only fail to support the conclusion [half of the data disagrees with the other half], but they point to a contradictory conclusion [two origins rather than a shared origin].
The last link is mainly a database of sources. Good place to search for sources, but not a source in itself, and thus of rather limited value here. Handy to post as a link if you expect no-one will look at it. Argumentum ad meritoriam, perhaps?
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