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 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 179
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ? Page 6 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)


Incidentally, have you read the Jewish holy book, The Talmud, and what they think of Christians and how they are encouraged to behave towards Christians?


This is quite clearly a blatant troll from a fundamentalist anti-Semite who knows less than nothing about Jews, Judaism and real world history, let alone the viewpoint of theology from beyond a narrow "fringe" point of view.

If they think, for instance, that the Talmud is the primary holy book of the Jewish faith, you have just spotted an anti-Semite...and someone either deliberately or ignorantly spreading misinformation about Judaism.

The next step will be to expect a flood of misquoted or out of context information from the Talmuds to attempt to paint Jews or Judaism in a negative light. The person quoting, of course, neither speaks nor understands Judaism, nor has likely read an actual responsible translation of the Talmud themself and is just parroting material from either a bigoted fundamentalist hate site or worse still, a white-supremacist site like Stormfront with a specifically anti-Jewish agenda as such sites tend to promulgate and spread such misinformation freely.

Best ignored or reported as to attempt to discuss anything with such a bigot will result in a tiresome game of ring-around-the-forum. Don't give them the time of day that they don't deserve.

If it continues, there are sources of accurate Talmud translation on the web to easily dismiss such idiocy.



Jewish is a race like being black, for example.
One can be Jewish by race and by religion as well.


Before stating an opinion like that, maybe you ought to take the time and read the thread...just because you may think it's that cut and dried, respectfully, it does not mean that it is.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 182
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 12/27/2007 1:35:17 AM
The markers are shared with other groups of people from the same regions and do not show Jews to be in any significant way distinct from other religions or cultures in the same places of origin. There is no validity to calling Jews a "race". Use of the term "race" also implies equal status with other groups which ARE considered races. That implied status is false, as most Jews are a subset of a subset of a subset of the Caucasian race. Others belong to one or more of the many African races. Caucasians are an identifiable geographical, morphological, and genetic group. Mongoloids and Australasians are also geographically, morphologically, and genetically identifiable. Africans meet these criteria as well, but as several groups, not one. Jews are only somewhat identifiable genetically, and those genetic traits are not significantly exclusive to Jews.

It really opens a can of worms to consider Jews a race, as it invites many other religions and cultures to call themselves Jews. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Pick one or the other, or you won't be able to maintain either. Most will pick "religion".
 Ravenstar66
Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 183
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 12/27/2007 11:23:04 AM
Oh.. THANK YOU Frogo!!!!

I have been saying this for years.... there are only 3 MAIN races: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid, with subsets within them. As far as I understand only a very few subsets are considerewd basically "pure" (for what that's worth) A small tribe in south america, the bushmen of africa and the pygmies. I could be wrong about the subsets but as far as semitic and such, there has been so much moving, migrating and intermixing in the middle east and India and North Africa that the peoples are incredibly genetically related. Are the Semitic peoples descendants of the Indo-europeans or Aryans?.. I'm not sure. anyway... I'm blathering...sorry.

Anyway.. thank you. I have this argument about racial types everytime someone tries to tell me that Arabs, Persians, Israelites or East Indians are not Caucasian... because they are "brown" (grrrrrrrrrrrrr) sheesh
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 184
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 12/27/2007 1:06:13 PM
The question of who is a Jew is something that comes up repeatedly in this thread. It is of little interest if some Christian decides to tell someone who is or isn't a Jew or by what qualifier. What do the majority of people who identify themselves with this definition classify the most broadly as the requirements to be a Jew and do they classify it as a race or a religion?

http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm
This reference probably explains it best...



What Is Judaism?
Level: Basic


What is Judaism? What does it mean to be a Jew? Most people, both Jewish and gentile, would instinctively say that Judaism is a religion. And yet, there are militant atheists who insist that they are Jews! Is Judaism a race? If you were to say so, most Jews would think you were an antisemite! So what is Judaism?

Is Judaism a Religion?
Clearly, there is a religion called Judaism, a set of ideas about the world and the way we should live our lives that is called "Judaism." It is studied in Religious Studies courses and taught to Jewish children in Hebrew schools. See What do Jews Believe? for details. There is a lot of flexibility about certain aspects of those beliefs, and a lot of disagreement about specifics, but that flexibility is built into the organized system of belief that is Judaism.

However, many people who call themselves Jews do not believe in that religion at all! More than half of all Jews in Israel today call themselves "secular," and don't believe in G-d or any of the religious beliefs of Judaism. Half of all Jews in the United States don't belong to any synagogue. They may practice some of the rituals of Judaism and celebrate some of the holidays, but they don't think of these actions as religious activities.

The most traditional Jews and the most liberal Jews and everyone in between would agree that these secular people are still Jews, regardless of their disbelief. See Who is a Jew? Clearly, then, there is more to being Jewish than just a religion.

Are Jews a Race?
In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).

Is It a Culture or Ethnic Group?
Most secular American Jews think of their Jewishness as a matter of culture or ethnicity. When they think of Jewish culture, they think of the food, of the Yiddish language, of some limited holiday observances, and of cultural values like the emphasis on education.

Those secular American Jews would probably be surprised to learn that much of what they think of as Jewish culture is really just Ashkenazic Jewish culture, the culture of Jews whose ancestors come from one part of the world. Jews have lived in many parts of the world and have developed many different traditions. As a Sephardic friend likes to remind me, Yiddish is not part of his culture, nor are bagels and lox, chopped liver, latkes, gefilte fish or matzah ball soup. His idea of Jewish cooking includes bourekas, phyllo dough pastries filled with cheese or spinach. His ancestors probably wouldn't know what to do with a dreidel.

There are certainly cultural traits and behaviors that are shared by many Jews, that make us feel more comfortable with other Jews. Jews in many parts of the world share many of those cultural aspects. However, that culture is not shared by all Jews all over the world, and people who do not share that culture are no less Jews because of it. Thus, Judaism must be something more than a culture or an ethnic group.

Are the Jews a Nation?
The traditional explanation, and the one given in the Torah, is that the Jews are a nation. The Hebrew word, believe it or not, is "goy." The Torah and the rabbis used this term not in the modern sense meaning a territorial and political entity, but in the ancient sense meaning a group of people with a common history, a common destiny, and a sense that we are all connected to each other.

Unfortunately, in modern times, the term "nation" has become too contaminated by ugly, jingoistic notions of a country obsessed with its own superiority and bent on world domination. Because of this notion of "nationhood," Jews are often falsely accused of being disloyal to their own country in favor of their loyalty to the Jewish "nation," of being more loyal to Israel than to their home country. Some have gone so far as to use this distorted interpretation of "nationhood" to prove that Jews do, or seek to, control the world. In fact, a surprising number of antisemitic websites and newsgroup postings linked to this page (in an earlier form) as proof of their antisemitic delusions that Jews are nationalistic, that Israel is a colonial power and so forth.

Because of the inaccurate connotations that have attached themselves to the term "nation," the term can no longer be used to accurately describe the Jewish people.

The Jewish People are a Family
It is clear from the discussion above that there is a certain amount of truth in the claims that it is a religion, a race, or an ethnic group, none of these descriptions is entirely adequate to describe what connects Jews to other Jews. And yet, almost all Jews feel a sense of connectedness to each other that many find hard to explain, define, or even understand. Traditionally, this interconnectedness was understood as "nationhood" or "peoplehood," but those terms have become so distorted over time that they are no longer accurate.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz has suggested a better analogy for the Jewish people: We are a family. See the third essay in his recent book, We Jews: Who Are We and What Should We Do. But though this is a new book, it is certainly not a new concept: throughout the Bible and Jewish literature, the Jewish people are referred to as "the Children of Israel," a reference to the fact that we are all the physical or spiritual descendants of the Patriarch Jacob, who was later called Israel. In other words, we are part of his extended family.

Like a family, we don't always agree with each other. We often argue and criticize each other. We hold each other to the very highest standards, knowing that the shortcomings of any member of the family will be held against all of us. But when someone outside of the family unfairly criticizes a family member or the family as a whole, we are quick to join together in opposition to that unfair criticism.

When members of our "family" suffer or are persecuted, we all feel their pain. For example, in the 1980s, when Africa was suffering from droughts and famines, many Jews around the world learned for the first time about the Beta Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia. Their religion, race and culture are quite different from ours, and we had not even known that they existed before the famine. And yet, our hearts went out to them as our fellow Jews during this period of famine, like distant cousins we had never met, and Jews from around the world helped them to emigrate to Israel.

When a member of our "family" does something illegal, immoral or shameful, we all feel the shame, and we all feel that it reflects on us. As Jews, many of us were embarrassed by the Monica Lewinsky scandal, or the Jack Abramoff affair, because Lewinsky and Abramoff are Jews. We were shocked when Israeli Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin was killed by a Jew, unable to believe that one Jew would ever kill another member of the "family."

And when a member of our "family" accomplishes something significant, we all feel proud. A perfect example of Jews (even completely secular ones) delighting in the accomplishments of our fellow Jews is the perennial popularity of Adam Sandler's Chanukkah songs, listing famous people who are Jewish. We all take pride in scientists like Albert Einstein or political leaders like Joe Lieberman (we don't all agree with his politics or his religious views, but we were all proud to see him on a national ticket). And is there a Jew who doesn't know (or at least feel pride upon learning) that Sandy Koufax declined to pitch in a World Series game that fell on Yom Kippur?



While there do seem to be certain genetic markers that show up due to controlled family marriages, such as the Kohainim marker, this on its own does not qualify as a racial grouping as has been pointed out.

If some small fringe group wishes to self-identify as a Jew they are welcome to...does that make them one in the eyes of the bulk of people who call themselves Jews and have done for two millenia or governmental or religious authorities? Probably not...not any more than putting a fishbowl on my head and making a refrigerator box rocket makes me an astronaut. But if makes you feel happy you can call yourself whatever you like.
 Seavoyage
Joined: 1/18/2007
Msg: 188
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/27/2008 6:18:56 AM
Oh.. THANK YOU Frogo!!!!

I have been saying this for years.... there are only 3 MAIN races: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid, with subsets within them. As far as I understand only a very few subsets are considerewd basically "pure" (for what that's worth) A small tribe in south america, the bushmen of africa and the pygmies. I could be wrong about the subsets but as far as semitic and such, there has been so much moving, migrating and intermixing in the middle east and India and North Africa that the peoples are incredibly genetically related. Are the Semitic peoples descendants of the Indo-europeans or Aryans?.. I'm not sure. anyway... I'm blathering...sorry.

Anyway.. thank you. I have this argument about racial types everytime someone tries to tell me that Arabs, Persians, Israelites or East Indians are not Caucasian... because they are "brown" (grrrrrrrrrrrrr) sheesh


The Jewish people are generally Semites, but a person who is born Jewish is considered to be a Semite who descends from the Israelites or Hebrews, but does not necessarily profess Judaism. So in that sense it would be like saying someone is a Frenchman or an Arab. The difference is being a Frenchman can never really be associated with religion. Being Arab sort of approaches that, because it is illegal to convert to religions in the Middle East except Islam unless you live in Lebanon. Caucasians used to be divided into subgroups in the past with Nordic, Alpine, and Mediterranean and the Israelites, Arabs, along with many people from Greece, and Italy fit under Mediterranean. As far as East Indians, it was the northern part of India that was genetically heavily influenced by the Aryan invasion, but that is more pronounced in Afghanistan. The Persians are generally very Mediterranean, and they supposedly mixed with a very swarthy group called the Elamites which changed their complexion, and they eventually adopted Semitic words from Aramaic and Arabic. A Jew can feel he is a Jew whether he believes in Jesus or not. It's up to him. A Jew doesn't necessarily have a religion. As far as whether Jesus was a Jew, his mother was a Jew. Under Jewish law, if your mother is a Jew, then you are a Jew, but I don't care if Jesus was a Jew or if Ghandi was an Indian or Buddha was Nepalese.
I care more about what great lights gave humanity...... And I definitely cherish the
forerunner of Jesus - the great Hebrew prophet Isaiah who talked about converting swords into plowshares....He talked a lot about peace, which our world needs..
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 190
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History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/28/2008 12:38:29 PM

Jews can return to their Jewish faith at any time but according to the Jewish faith are NOT considered Jews if they accept Christianity as their belief. This is not a negotiable consideration to the majority of the people in the world who use the self-designation of Jew no matter what some minority, cult or splinter-group or Gentile Christian might choose to call them.
Sorry, themadfiddler, but as far as I know, that isn't true. If a Jew converts to any other religion, he is still Jewish, but is considered a "min", meaning a heretic and is not a Jew who religiously practise Judaism. However, he can return to keeping Judaism at any time. But there is a rule, that if a certain number of generations of Jews are brought up in another religion, then they are not counted as being definitely Jewish, because there gets so much confusion of their parentage, that it is very possible that they think they are Jewish, when they are not. Such people need to convert to Judaism, before they are allowed to marry another Jew in an Orthodox Synagogue, because you can't be sure that they are Jewish.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 191
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/28/2008 12:52:54 PM


Sorry, themadfiddler, but as far as I know, that isn't true. If a Jew converts to any other religion, he is still Jewish, but is considered a "min", meaning a heretic and is not a Jew who religiously practise Judaism. However, he can return to keeping Judaism at any time. But there is a rule, that if a certain number of generations of Jews are brought up in another religion, then they are not counted as being definitely Jewish, because there gets so much confusion of their parentage, that it is very possible that they think they are Jewish, when they are not. Such people need to convert to Judaism, before they are allowed to marry another Jew in an Orthodox Synagogue, because you can't be sure that they are Jewish.


Lack of clarity in my post and incorrect context has confused the issue but at the time the discussion was focussed around the notion of "Jewishness" as a religion not a cultural identification even though it is both. I was not splitting that particular hair and while one's cultural Jewishness obviously is retained, the sources I had read, including the Orthodox rabbis stated that the individual was not any longer considered to be practicing Judaism as a religion.

Messianic Judaism, IMHO is an attempt to co-opt the Jewish religion via Christianity, while maintaining many cultural elements of beign a Jew and mutating others to have a Christian flavour.

I apologize for the lack of specificity but as far as I meant at the time, in terms of the discussion I was correct to state that a MJ was not a Jew in the opinion of the majority of those self-identifying as Jews from a religious perspective and that does still include the Government of Israel. Obviously the cultural or ethnic tradition can be maintained intact and a heretic who returns to the faith can regain their Jewish faith but someone who is a practicing heretic is not an observant Jew. It may be a fine point of semantics, but it is still true.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 192
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/28/2008 3:05:05 PM
^^^ themadfiddler, I can now see what you are talking about. I was only talking about the identity of a person who is born Jewish and later converted to Christianity.

There are 3 separate issues here: if the person's identity is considered legally Jewish according to Orthodox Jewish Law, which I was referring to, if the person is considered a "practising" Jew, and if the person is culturally Jewish.

There is no question that a Messianic Jew, who was born Jewish, is still Jewish, but he is not considered as practising Judaism, for the numerous differences between Orthodox Judaism and Messianic Judaism. For one thing, Orthodox Jews may not carry anything, not their keys, or their wallet, or even a hankie, in the street, from Friday after sundown, till Saturday after sundown, unless there is an Eruv enclosing that street. As you can imagine, this makes a big problem for Jews to leave their house, because they cannot carry their keys to their house in their pocket. So if a Messianic Jew leaves his house on Friday night or Saturday day, carrying his/her keys, he/she is breaking the Shabbat, and is therefore not practising the Jewish religion. There are numerous other examples, but that is only one, where you are extremely unlikely to find a Messianic Jew that keeps even that one.

If someone converts to Orthodox Judaism, and then converts to Messianic Judaism, then there is another problem, because then if his intent was never to keep Orthodox Judaism in the first place, then he never made a real commitment to Orthodox Judaism, so his conversion is invalid. So there would be a real question if his conversion was valid, and if he was Jewish at all.

However, if he converted to "Judaism" according to Messianic Judaism, and then accepted Jesus as his saviour, he could not be Jewish at all, because a primary part of that commitment to keep Judaism is to understand what you are undertaking, and because that person's understanding of what he is committing to, is Messianic Judaism, which simply does not keep the same laws at all. It would be like someone studying to become a lawyer in America, and passing the American "bar", and wanting to practise law in the UK. The law in the UK is a different system. He would have to first pass the UK "bar", and until he did so, he would not be considered a lawyer in the UK. So a non-Jew who converted to Messianic Judaism, would need to leave Messianic Judaism, and convert to Orthodox Judaism, to be considered a Jew.

Culturally, Messianic Jews are not considered Jews either, because the anti-semitic treatment of Jews at the hands of Christians over the last 1000 years, has put a lack of belief in Jesus as a significant part of the culture. So any Jew who believes in Jesus is just not culturally Jewish, to the vast majority of Jews. Most Jews I know consider Messianic Jews as a branch of Christians and nothing else.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 193
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/28/2008 3:32:21 PM
Thank YOU for bringing it up actually and I'm sure others besides myself greatly appreciate the additional detailed explanation on the finer points of the issue and background. As a non-Jew, coming from a predominantly Christian culture, my interest in this is purely to see that, to the best of my ability and in the spirit of ecumenical truth and fairness, the Jewish faith is not in any way misrepresented or submerged by people speaking for it. I certainly include myself in that category and direct people always to seek Jewish sources...when you want to know about Judaism, you don't ask a Presbyterian.

It's not my job, but I consider it a responsibility as there have been too many in western culture spreading too many lies and distortions about Jews and Judaism, I think it's about time we started turning things around. And if I ever get something wrong, I don't mind being corrected about it
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 195
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/31/2008 5:56:15 PM
RE msg 196:
Thank YOU for bringing it up actually and I'm sure others besides myself greatly appreciate the additional detailed explanation on the finer points of the issue and background. As a non-Jew, coming from a predominantly Christian culture, my interest in this is purely to see that, to the best of my ability and in the spirit of ecumenical truth and fairness, the Jewish faith is not in any way misrepresented or submerged by people speaking for it. I certainly include myself in that category and direct people always to seek Jewish sources...when you want to know about Judaism, you don't ask a Presbyterian.

It's not my job, but I consider it a responsibility as there have been too many in western culture spreading too many lies and distortions about Jews and Judaism, I think it's about time we started turning things around. And if I ever get something wrong, I don't mind being corrected about it
:applause:

That is exactly why I keep correcting people on issues too. FYI, keep posting, as I learn a lot from your posts.:applause:


RE msg 197:
Sort of to add to frogos point, and if you believe the bible to be literal, when the Hebrews split from Egypt I speculate that they had already mixed in with some of the other slave races the Egyptians kept.
From what I understand, Jews were on the lowest social standing possible in Egypt, even as a slave. No-one would touch them.
I would also speculate that when they split some of those other races went with them so to say that Jews are a certain race does not take that into account.
However, after the Ten Plagues and the Splitting of the Sea, and Jews basically showing their G-d was incredibly powerful, their standing went way up, and a large group of assorted non-Jewish people left Egypt with them and converted to Judaism. Also, there were groups like the Giv'onites, who were a mass of non-Jews that converted. So there are a lot of Jews that descended from convert blood, including myself, as one of my great-grandmothers converted to Judaism.
 agapenow
Joined: 5/20/2007
Msg: 196
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/1/2008 4:27:10 PM
Yes we are! I was brought up Jewish for 36 years both my parents were Jewish. One day I went to Church just to shut my friends up about Jesus..Well when I waked into that Church it was the first time I ever felt God and now I'm a completed Jew. The scales came off my eyes and now I can see the truth...If the Jews had accepted Jesus 2,000 years ago only the Jews would be saved. It was God's will that it went down the way it did and in the end all of Isreal will be saved.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 198
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/1/2008 9:36:28 PM


Yes we are! I was brought up Jewish for 36 years both my parents were Jewish


That's very interesting. I was raised as a Christian for about 14 years of my life. I read one book once to find out that something was wrong. About 6 years ago, a very nice and very funny rabbi from New Jersey gave me a lecture tape series, probably over 100 dollars worth for free...about 15 tapes. I can tell you if I had heard those as a young man I might have even converted to Judaism but there was no way I would have ever been a Christian before because "the scales came off my eyes." There was no great movement of faith, just reason and understanding and pure truth. Heck, most of it was in plain English using common translations of the Christian Bible.

I would like to know if in your 36 years how much of a Jewish education you had? How much Hebrew School did you attend? Did you have a bat mitzvah? After that? I mean as you and even I, a frozen Canadian goy from up in Oh Canada know, there is being raised Jewish and being raised Jewish so when someone comes on a forum and says it, we should know what it means. How long did you attend shul? Did you?

I can't speak or read Hebrew fluently, but I can tell you in the limted understanding of what I have, and based on the information that this rabbis lectures gave me and that of others since, I cannot understand how someone who really knew their Jewish faith would become what is essentially a Christian, call it a Messianic Jew, or completed Jew, but the concept is the same...it is essentially Christology intermingled, in my opinion unneccesarily, with Christianity.

And what I don't get is if a schmuck like me who was not raised in a Jewish environment with the culture, with the language, can see the problem inherant, the vast dichotomy between the two faiths and the simple truths inherant in Judaism on its own that require no "doctoring" from Christology, why a Jew cannot.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 199
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/1/2008 9:36:41 PM


Thats an interesting and encouraging post agapenow - cool - and in the end all Israel will be saved..


Actually, I don't find that last bit either encouraging or interesting...I find it preachy, arrogant, insulting and prosletyzing and really needlessly so...but we're all entitled to our opinion. That's yet another one of the reasons I prefer Judaism as it does not actively seek converts, unlike Messianic Judaism or Christianity.

Until a short time ago, the Southern Baptist Council, which along with many other evangelical churches gave Messianic Jewish groups like Jews for Jesus a huge amount of funding and support, used to refer to Jews as being in "spiritual darkness" and bound for eternal damnation and hellfire. They now only reserve this for Hindus and Buddhists and Wiccans ...oh yeah and non-Messianic Jews.

Still all part of the same movement to either missionize to, convert, or kill off all of the "perfidious, stiff-necked Jews" who are holding up the Second Coming.
 Jacobus101
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 201
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History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/1/2008 10:32:29 PM
themadfiddler said,


I can't speak or read Hebrew fluently, but I can tell you in the limted understanding of what I have, and based on the information that this rabbis lectures gave me and that of others since, I cannot understand how someone who really knew their Jewish faith would become what is essentially a Christian, call it a Messianic Jew, or completed Jew, but the concept is the same...it is essentially Christology intermingled, in my opinion unneccesarily, with Christianity.


Hmm.... well, it happens regardless. One example off the top of my head here is the former Chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII, Israel Zolli. He belonged to a family of rabbis and was undoubtedly quite well-learned in the Torah and Talmud. However, after the war, he was baptized into the Catholic Church by Pope Pius XII and changed his first name to Eugenio (after Pius XII's birth name, Eugenio Pacelli). According to him, he experienced a vision of Jesus Christ while officiating at Yom Kippur.

This is an article entitled "Eugenio Zolli's Path to Rome" from the Catholic Christian point of view. http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/print2005/swallow_zolli_sept05.html

To be fair, I'll also include a page from a Jewish "anti-missionary" page about Israel Zolli's conversion. LOL, pretty harsh words for the guy, though. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/rome.html


And what I don't get is if a schmuck like me who was not raised in a Jewish environment with the culture, with the language, can see the problem inherant, the vast dichotomy between the two faiths and the simple truths inherant in Judaism on its own that require no "doctoring" from Christology, why a Jew cannot.


And:


I would like to know if in your 36 years how much of a Jewish education you had? How much Hebrew School did you attend? Did you have a bat mitzvah? After that? I mean as you and even I, a frozen Canadian goy from up in Oh Canada know, there is being raised Jewish and being raised Jewish so when someone comes on a forum and says it, we should know what it means. How long did you attend shul? Did you?


I often feel the same way, except in a different situation. As a convert to Catholic Christianity and absolutely loving it, I don't understand why so many "born and raised Catholics" leave it for something else. But it happens.

Also, I share your sentiments and I think there's a big difference between being raised Catholic and being raised Catholic. Most people who claim to be raised Catholic may have been baptized at birth, attending Mass once in a while, and maybe even received confirmation, but that's about it. Most of them don't know any Latin or might even be surprised that at one time, all Masses were entirely in Latin. The Mass is usually in the vernacular now, but most Catholics today understand it much less than back when it was in Latin. They don't understand the word "transubstantiation" or the belief behind it. They don't know anything about the lives of the saints, and they quite possibly can't even name who the reigning Pope is, much less some rudimentary catechism like the seven sacraments. When asked to name one traditional Catholic hymn, they'd probably name "Amazing Grace", LOL.

In contrast, I have seen a few truly "born and raised Catholics", and they seem so counter-cultural, it's unbelievable. I say that in a positive way, though.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 202
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/1/2008 11:35:15 PM
Thanks for presenting both sides Jacobus, very decent of you.

When it comes down to it, my stance on religion at the end of the day is that whatever ends up making a person feel centered and complete and a good citizen and - in their heart and mind - at one with the Divine, is up to them...and a good thing. So long as they permit their neighbour to do the same, and do not attempt to misrepresent their neighbours attempts to do the same.

Speak plainly and truthfully. Don't try to baffle me with bullsh*t becuse sooner or later, the reasoning brain I was given will start to ask questions.

This, in essence, is what bothers me about Messianic Judaism is in avowing itself as simply another form of Judaism is still the belief in a form of replacement theology and a denigration of Judaism inherant that says Judaism on it's own is not a valid path to truth and you are not "complete" if you simply follow Judaism. Again, the spectre of exclusivity of truth rears its head.

Now I understand this feature is a function of many monotheistic religions, and in a sense to some extent Judaism itself - however - if one follows the Noachide Laws one will not suffer eternal damnation for not having worshipped the god of Israel (in point of fact in Judaism no-one but the most evil would suffer eternal damnation).

But this is, in my opinion, one of the weaknesses of this faith, is that it cannot exist without taking a page from and tearing down its predecessor faith.

If one is to subscribe to any particular set of beliefs, and here we are certainly in agreement, I think it behooves a person to learn EVERYTHING they can about it.



Not sure which theology has a take on the Jews/Israel holding up the second coming Fidd. News ta me..
Which Christian movements are promoting to kill off all the Jews???

Well it's obviously not a regular practice these days except among rather extreme groups...but it was regular practice for about two millenia to convert, or kill. After the Passion play, the usual medieval fun and games was to tar and feather the local Jewry and run them out of town...cut down on loan repayments that way. I trust you'll spare me the encyclopedic research on the history of Christianity as regards the Jewish problem at this late hour...
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 203
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/2/2008 1:08:07 AM
RE Msg: 204 by Jacobus101:
In contrast, I have seen a few truly "born and raised Catholics", and they seem so counter-cultural, it's unbelievable. I say that in a positive way, though.
I'll let you in on a "secret", Jacobus101. Back when I was a teenager, a friend of mine who went to an expensive Christian school, pointed out to me that of all the Jews we knew, the ones who went to Christian schools seemed to all be much more interested in Judaism. He said it was because when he went to school, his classmates would always ask him why he did this or didn't do that, and so in the beginning, he wanted to know more, just to be able to say more than "I don't know". But as he learned more, he wanted to keep more.

I think it's a case of the fact we truly appreciate things when they are something we are forced to question them.

RE Msg: 205 by themadfiddler:
When it comes down to it, my stance on religion at the end of the day is that whatever ends up making a person feel centered and complete and a good citizen and - in their heart and mind - at one with the Divine, is up to them...and a good thing. So long as they permit their neighbour to do the same, and do not attempt to misrepresent their neighbours attempts to do the same.
As much as it may not seem so to some, this is my opinion. I don't even expect people to believe in G-d. Just being good to their fellow people would do fine for me.

Well it's obviously not a regular practice these days except among rather extreme groups...but it was regular practice for about two millenia to convert, or kill. After the Passion play, the usual medieval fun and games was to tar and feather the local Jewry and run them out of town...cut down on loan repayments that way. I trust you'll spare me the encyclopedic research on the history of Christianity as regards the Jewish problem at this late hour...
I used to think anti-semitism was about anti-religious sentiment. Now, I just think it is a product of psychology and people's desires.
The issue of money-lending was a big one. Christians were not allowed to charge interest to other Christians, so they didn't lend each other large sums of money that often. But also, poor people didn't have much reason to borrow money, because they would be just as poor the next day. So only rich Christians like nobles and the lord of the local area borrowed money.
The only people allowed to lend money with interest in Christian society were non-Christians, which were nearly always Jews. As Jews were excluded from all Guilds, and doing any job with Gentiles other than usury or peddling, it was the case that if the local lord borrowed a large sum of money with interest, it was from a Jew, and if he dealt with a Jew, it was probably to borrow a large sum of money.

So it was quite common for a noble or the local lord to accuse a Jew of something, in order to avoid paying back his debts. The local people were treated abominably, so they would look for any excuse to blame someone else, as it would get their frustrations out, and make them feel a whole lot better about their lives. On top, it would head off any likelihood of a revolt, because the populace would blame the Jews and that would distract their attention from the injustices of the local lord. If we compare how many times that modern governments have to "spin" a situation to shift blame from them for one or another of their policies that is making the news, to the amount of Anti-Semitism that happened in the past, it is probably quite close. So instead of "spin", they had Anti-Semitism. There were lots of men who became corrupt priests in order to escape poverty and gain power, and were probably early versions of "spin doctors", as they got a lot of benefits from helping the aristocracy. Probably most priests were very decent people, and from what I have read and seen, I believe that most priests actually liked the Jews. But the small minority that was corrupt was enough to incite the populace to take out their frustrations on the Jews, which was a lot of frustration, considering how bad it was for the average person.

I agree that most Messianic people probably don't understand Judaism very well. But most people on POF, with the exception of a few, such as themadfiddler, and Jacobus101, seem to think that Judaism and Christianity are the same religion, and only differ on Jesus, when they are 2 separate religions. Fortunately, though, those who are in the know seem to get on for the most part. Just as one example, my best friend's mother was good friends with a Monseigneur for her whole life.
 agapenow
Joined: 5/20/2007
Msg: 206
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/2/2008 1:52:10 PM
Yes, I did attend Temple on Friday nights and celebrate all Jewish Holidays. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and I am a Christian and fully Jewish. All I know is now I feel the presence of God in my heart and soul and that cant be explained or reasoned with but a feeling that lies within me. You can choose to believe what you want to believe and I'm not going to judge you or try to change your mind. Now I have a relationship with God ... before I knew he existed but he was unattainable now I know he is my friend.
 amberwave
Joined: 10/6/2006
Msg: 207
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 4/1/2008 4:59:02 PM
A very good point, the whole Jewish tribe will all probably never accept anything with 100% in agreement. It isa definitely hard to imagine!

I accepted Yeshua quite some time ago. I am still very much Jewish. I am more responsibly a Jew now, more than ever! For me, being chosen is a reciprocal interaction. I am not passive, but proactive.

SHALOM

Heidi
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 234
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 12/26/2009 6:31:45 PM
RE Msg: 231 by Chiny®™©:

Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
IMO.......Yes........of course they are.

When Jesus embarked on his ministry, his discourse was with his own people. He never addressed or sermonised to the goyim/infidel or gentile if you like, his mission was primarily focused on the children of Abraham, the Jews and those others of the larger Semite Family. All his disciples were Jews whom were the first converts to his new interpretations of his Father’s Word as presented in the Torah or Books of Moses. BTW indifference to what most assumed “Christians” believe, Jesus stated quite plainly “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them”. In other words he has come not to delete the Laws of his Father or the Prophets as stated in the Torah but to reboot them back into place but this time as he has interpreted them. The Old Testament remains wholly relevant and was never replaced by the New Testament. Jesus was starting a new sect, an off-shoot, a new interpretation of his Fathers Word as written by Moses but still remaining within Judaism but opposed or distinct from the old rabbinic interpretations. This is where he first ran afoul of the old rabbi’s of the old synagogue.
That is one way of looking at things. However, Jesus wasn't the only one preaching a different interpretation of the OT. There was also the Saduccess, the Beithusim, the Essenes, the Samaritans, and the Karaites. Today, there are also the Reform Jews. There are many more groups. So if the Messianic people are Jewish, then so are all those other people.

In reality, you can say that:
1) According to Messianic Jewish people, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
2) According to the Saduccess, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
3) According to the Beithusim, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
4) According to the Essenes, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
5) According to the Samaritans, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
6) According to the Karaites, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
7) According to Reform Jews, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
8) According to Orthodox Jews, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
They all have their own rules for who is Jewish, according to their interpretation of Judaism.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 235
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Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 2/1/2010 4:05:52 AM
RE Msg: 235 by Csonka:
The Hebrew church by the ninth century under Roman papacy was much changed and I would think but do not know, they were not Jewish anymore.
That's the problem. Orthodox Jews called their places of worship "synagogues", because they didn't change, despite the huge efforts of the Romans to stamp out traditional Judaism in order to Romanise the Jews. It was the Hebrew Xians who changed the names of their places of worship from being "synagogues" to being "churches", because they changed to suit the Romans. That was the biggest split between Xians and Jews, and that was when Jews finally realised that Xianity was more than just a messianic sect, but was actually a whole different religion, as different as Islam is from Xianity.

Even hypocritically, some taught against Jesus, after being refused baptism by John and having Him killed, a guilty few at the top.
That was the Roman papacy's influence. Far better to claim that their rivals (Orthodox Jews) killed Jesus, than to admit their patrons (the Romans) killed their messiah.

Most of Israel didn't hear the message in power.
From what I understand, Jesus went about preaching in public. I don't know about you. But I can say that even nowadays, Word of Mouth is still powerful in the Jewish Community. Back then, Word of Mouth was the main form of communication. So if Jesus left his house and started preaching, everyone heard about it. It's just that most Jews didn't want to follow Jesus.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 236
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Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 2/1/2010 2:01:11 PM
RE Msg: 237 by Csonka:
But Scorpio, are not the oldest Gospels writen by Jesus close disciples, and they mention that the Jewish leaders handed Jesus over.
There were plenty of dodgy things going on in Israel at the time by lots of dodgy people. The Gospels don't pick on any of them.

The other problem is that the Xians weren't exactly the first people to have a problem with the Pharisees. Far from it. But all these groups weren't all saying nasty things about the Pharisees. They all agreed on one thing, and only one thing. They all were saying they could make up their own interpretations of the Bible. The only problem with that, was that they all agreed that the Pharisees were the bearers of traditional Judaism, and the Pharisees didn't agree with them. But that's not the only problem. You see, the Pharisees encouraged questioning. They actually believed it was a good thing to question their beliefs and argue with them. But if they won the argument, then you'd have lost your argument. That's the biggest problem facing all these groups: they argued with the Pharisees, they lost, and didn't like it.

So all I have, is yet another Johnny-Come-Lately group, who disagree with the interpretation of Judaism of the Pharisees, argued with them, lost the argument, and still wanted everyone sane to do the insane thing and follow the people whose arguments didn't stand up to scrutiny. They didn't like that, and then they blamed the death of their leader on the Jews.

The Jews didn't all lay down and do what the Romans wanted. There was a revolt in Syria, and the Romans responded by crucifying 5000 Jews. So crucifixtion didn't mean all that much as a form of execution.

The Romans went crazy after the Bar Kochba revolt in 132-136 CE, and slaughtered so many Jews in response that they almost drowned the fields in Jewish blood. The key thing about the Bar Kochba Revolt that the Romans didn't like, was that many of the Jews believed that Bar Kochba was the Messiah. The Romans were afraid that he would lead the Jews to unite in battle, as a force of millions. That was just too many for the Romans to take. So they were very against any possible Messiahs even before this. They had to keep the people down. So the last thing they wanted was someone claiming to be the Messiah, uniting millions of Jews against the Romans, especially when the Romans had not had total control of the land, which was the case during Jesus' life.

The most likely situation is that the Romans decided to kill Jesus for being a threat to the Romans, just because people said he was the Messiah.

Also the Jewish OT holds that prophets were usually bruised and often killed, like Isaiah?
Yes, by the Jews who followed idolatry. They killed the Rabbis, who are also called the Pharisees.

Also the Romans in their art clearly portray Romans killing Jesus.
The early Romans didn't have a problem with killing up Jewish rebels. But the later Xians did have a problem with saying their grandparents killed their own saviour. You don't need to be a genius to figure that one out.

Besides, I don't know if you know, but a few years ago, the Pope apologised for this erroneous claim about the Jews.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 237
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Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/21/2010 5:55:58 PM

almost eveyone except the Jews know that the Jew Jesus is the Messiah or Chirst [anointed one],


Everyone except the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoist, Confucionists, anyone practicing aboriginal religion . . .

According to this site, approximately 1/3 of the world's population is Christian. The other 2/3 do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. So your statement is statistically incorrect.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

# Christianity: 2.1 billion
# Islam: 1.5 billion
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
# Buddhism: 376 million
# primal-indigenous: 300 million
# African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
# Sikhism: 23 million
# Juche: 19 million
# Spiritism: 15 million
# Judaism: 14 million
# Baha'i: 7 million
# Jainism: 4.2 million
# Shinto: 4 million
# Cao Dai: 4 million
# Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
# Tenrikyo: 2 million
# Neo-Paganism: 1 million
# Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
# Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
# Scientology: 500 thousand
 g.i.jane3868
Joined: 1/7/2012
Msg: 240
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 5/9/2012 1:34:30 AM
OH LORD, IF PEOPLE WILL READ. JESUS WAS JEWISH. YES JESUS CHRIST. WHO LEFT THE EARTH AT AGE OF 33.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 241
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 5/23/2012 11:45:58 AM
a Messianic Jew is still a Jew who has left his/her religion for a different religion.
if you are born to a Jewish mother (who has been born to a Jewish mother)..or has converted within the orthodox way....and born after the mother converted,....the person is still, halachically, a Jew.

many here have written things written in both the Old Testament (which by the way is NOT the Old Testament...it is the Torah, or Tanach) and the New Testament (which I think is called the New Covenent???Maybe??)
that are not meant to be taken literally. Most Jews who have went to Yeshivot or other Jewish schools know this. Too many Christians are unaware of Talmud and Mishdrash and Kabalah....which all help explain the Torah. There are different levels to understanding the true meaning of Torah. G0d does not have to look like a man because we are made in His image. Perhaps we are made in the image of his attributes,...not physicallity...since God is without form.

If Jesus was the messiah....he must have been Massiach ben Yosef and not Massiach ben David. has world peace arrived? have the dead been raised? Has the temple been rebuilt? these are things the Messiah will do...we all know there is no world peace.
also....perhaps Jesus was a Messiah,....there is a Messiah perhaps in every generation. However.....what Jews will never believe is that the Messiah was born of a virgin and that he is part of the trinitarian G0dhead. Man is not G0d. that is the main issue with believing in Jesus. the messiah will be a man,....not God. Annointed by G0d, chosen by God , but not God. we cannot see God and God is NOT a man nor in the form of a man. Worship to any other than G0d Himself is idol worship.
 Complete8
Joined: 4/22/2013
Msg: 242
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 11/13/2013 9:01:43 PM
Yes. When you read the OT and the NT they are written with "Israel" as a nation and written as YHWH's desire for Israel to be "grafted" in through YeshuaHaMaschiach/Jesus the Christ. When you read the Torah/First 5 books of the Bible you will find there that Yah wrote to His People Israel. So the question is then asked, who is Israel? Israel was initially "Ya'akob/Jacob" who had 12 sons. Of these 12 on of them was Yehudah/Judah/The Jews (which is slang). Now. What happened to the other 11 brothers? Scripture is a great history lesson. When you read it, ask The Father, what are You trying to tell me? He will.
Shalom/Peace.
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