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 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 210
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ? Page 8 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Every time someone posts something new to this thread, it seems to fail the acid test of addressing the central question of what it means to be a Jew? Is "Jewishness" a religion and a culture? Yes or No? The answer is pretty definitively a yes and it is and has always been defined in the words of the Tanakh and, respectfully to those who wish to call themselves Messianic Jews, or "completed Jews", etc., not in the New Testament.

You may call yourself whatever you like, and believe whatever you like, but it seems to me that the first group out of the gate, and the group that sets the precedent gets to establish what the criterion are for belonging to that group. Jonny-come-lately's who want to borrow the outer trapping's of that group to co-opt the name but not the core priniciple's do not get to set the agenda, nor should they get to decide what it means to be a member of that group.

I can put a plastic bubble on my head and cover some coveralls with tinfoil, but that does not make me a NASA mission specialist. Likewise, I can believe that Jesus - call him Yeshua to "Jewish-ize" it - is the Moshiach/Messiah, put three candles on my Menorah for the Trinity, and wear tallit and tzitzahs and call myself a Jew...but if I believe in the Trinity, and a resurrected Jesus, then I am a Christian no matter what else you want to call it.

Messianic Judaism is, in short, yet another attempt to missionize and Christologize Judaism.

Judaism contains beliefs that, while in some ways are similar, in other ways are absolutely antithetical to Christianity and never the twain shall meet. Philosophically it shares a great deal with Christianity because Christianity is a splinter religion from Judaism. But religiously, cosmologically, they are as different as night and day and attempts to try and do a fake job or mangle them together half-heartedly as in Messianic Judaism are full of too many contradictory elements to make sense. Only those unaware of the distinctiveness of the two religions really would fall for it. Of course, in this world of quick fixes and half-assed religious teaching...this is hardly surprising. all IMHO of course...your mileage may vary.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 211
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/10/2009 11:29:12 PM
Jewish is a race you are Jewish by birth or adoption as I said that is it. No matter what anyone has told you.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 213
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/11/2009 12:54:31 AM

Not according to those who self-describe as Messianic Jews. And that for me is the bottom line. THEY, once followers of Judaism in some for or another and Jewish by birth or adoption who then believe the Jesus/Yeshua is the Christ/Messiah claim to be "Messianic Jews". Most continue with the same Jewish rituals as before. With a ton of respect, what YOU think ain't worth spit. Who died and made you Chief Rabbi?


You did see the rest of my post didn't you RO?

And yes, I agree wholeheartedly... frankly what I think isn't worth spit. It's what Jewish rabbis - real authorities on Judaism (not Jews for Judaism) and not people who do not apparently have the benefit of a real solid education on Judaism think. It's what real practicing Jews think. Not Christians. Not "self-described" Messianic Jews...but people who have practiced Judaism the way it has been practiced for the last several thousand years through all of its various changes and developments and evolutions into the form it is today.

But even a goyim like me can tell the difference between Christianity and Judaism buy comparing the two because of basic principles and without being a Talmudic scholar.

If you want a basic outline on the primary difference I STRONGLY suggest listening to the lectures of Rabbi Tovia Singer at www.outreachjudaism.org as they are free to download and Rabbi Singer knows his Torah, Talmud, and New Testament back to front.

After listening to some of his lectures, maybe you'll also get an idea of why a lack of a Jewish education also causes some Jews to become Messianic Jews instead of following the Jewish faith of their ancestors. After listening to them myself it became quite apparent.

Believe what you like and live and let live... but Judaism and Christianity are two different faiths and Messianic Judaism is essentially Christology by a different name with Jewish trappings.

Judaism is monotheism. It wasn't always, in it's most ancient form it was henotheism, but now it is pure monotheism...and there is no incarnate deity in the form of Yeshua/Jesus...there is no Trinitarianism, and there is definitely no sacrificed deity for the sins of man as the very thing is anathema to the G-d of Israel according to Judaism (this is Judaism 101 ... I shouldn't think I should even have to explain this to you or anyone else on this forum as this is common knowledge...if it isn't time to hit a basic encyclopedia).

As I said, you can "self describe" as whatever you like, and if it makes you feel good, that's fine...and if you are a good neighbour and good to your kids, and pay your taxes, whoop-de-fricken doo... but if you are a Messianic Jew does that make you Jewish?

Not according to anyone who cares about what it means to be Jewish, including councils of Orthodox, Conservative or even Reform rabbis or the State of Israel. Only maybe to evangelicals. No denomination of Judaism that I know of recognizes them as practicioners of the Jewish faith.



Jewish is a race you are Jewish by birth or adoption as I said that is it. No matter what anyone has told you.


Sorry this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm



What Is Judaism?

Level: Basic

What is Judaism? What does it mean to be a Jew? Most people, both Jewish and gentile, would instinctively say that Judaism is a religion. And yet, there are militant atheists who insist that they are Jews! Is Judaism a race? If you were to say so, most Jews would think you were an antisemite! So what is Judaism?
Is Judaism a Religion?

Clearly, there is a religion called Judaism, a set of ideas about the world and the way we should live our lives that is called "Judaism." It is studied in Religious Studies courses and taught to Jewish children in Hebrew schools. See What do Jews Believe? for details. There is a lot of flexibility about certain aspects of those beliefs, and a lot of disagreement about specifics, but that flexibility is built into the organized system of belief that is Judaism.

However, many people who call themselves Jews do not believe in that religion at all! More than half of all Jews in Israel today call themselves "secular," and don't believe in G-d or any of the religious beliefs of Judaism. Half of all Jews in the United States don't belong to any synagogue. They may practice some of the rituals of Judaism and celebrate some of the holidays, but they don't think of these actions as religious activities.

The most traditional Jews and the most liberal Jews and everyone in between would agree that these secular people are still Jews, regardless of their disbelief. See Who is a Jew? Clearly, then, there is more to being Jewish than just a religion.
Are Jews a Race?

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).
Is It a Culture or Ethnic Group?

Most secular American Jews think of their Jewishness as a matter of culture or ethnicity. When they think of Jewish culture, they think of the food, of the Yiddish language, of some limited holiday observances, and of cultural values like the emphasis on education.

Those secular American Jews would probably be surprised to learn that much of what they think of as Jewish culture is really just Ashkenazic Jewish culture, the culture of Jews whose ancestors come from one part of the world. Jews have lived in many parts of the world and have developed many different traditions. As a Sephardic friend likes to remind me, Yiddish is not part of his culture, nor are bagels and lox, chopped liver, latkes, gefilte fish or matzah ball soup. His idea of Jewish cooking includes bourekas, phyllo dough pastries filled with cheese or spinach. His ancestors probably wouldn't know what to do with a dreidel.

There are certainly cultural traits and behaviors that are shared by many Jews, that make us feel more comfortable with other Jews. Jews in many parts of the world share many of those cultural aspects. However, that culture is not shared by all Jews all over the world, and people who do not share that culture are no less Jews because of it. Thus, Judaism must be something more than a culture or an ethnic group.
Are the Jews a Nation?

The traditional explanation, and the one given in the Torah, is that the Jews are a nation. The Hebrew word, believe it or not, is "goy." The Torah and the rabbis used this term not in the modern sense meaning a territorial and political entity, but in the ancient sense meaning a group of people with a common history, a common destiny, and a sense that we are all connected to each other.

Unfortunately, in modern times, the term "nation" has become too contaminated by ugly, jingoistic notions of a country obsessed with its own superiority and bent on world domination. Because of this notion of "nationhood," Jews are often falsely accused of being disloyal to their own country in favor of their loyalty to the Jewish "nation," of being more loyal to Israel than to their home country. Some have gone so far as to use this distorted interpretation of "nationhood" to prove that Jews do, or seek to, control the world. In fact, a surprising number of antisemitic websites and newsgroup postings linked to this page (in an earlier form) as proof of their antisemitic delusions that Jews are nationalistic, that Israel is a colonial power and so forth.

Because of the inaccurate connotations that have attached themselves to the term "nation," the term can no longer be used to accurately describe the Jewish people.
The Jewish People are a Family

It is clear from the discussion above that there is a certain amount of truth in the claims that it is a religion, a race, or an ethnic group, none of these descriptions is entirely adequate to describe what connects Jews to other Jews. And yet, almost all Jews feel a sense of connectedness to each other that many find hard to explain, define, or even understand. Traditionally, this interconnectedness was understood as "nationhood" or "peoplehood," but those terms have become so distorted over time that they are no longer accurate.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz has suggested a better analogy for the Jewish people: We are a family. See the third essay in his recent book, We Jews: Who Are We and What Should We Do. But though this is a new book, it is certainly not a new concept: throughout the Bible and Jewish literature, the Jewish people are referred to as "the Children of Israel," a reference to the fact that we are all the physical or spiritual descendants of the Patriarch Jacob, who was later called Israel. In other words, we are part of his extended family.

Like a family, we don't always agree with each other. We often argue and criticize each other. We hold each other to the very highest standards, knowing that the shortcomings of any member of the family will be held against all of us. But when someone outside of the family unfairly criticizes a family member or the family as a whole, we are quick to join together in opposition to that unfair criticism.

When members of our "family" suffer or are persecuted, we all feel their pain. For example, in the 1980s, when Africa was suffering from droughts and famines, many Jews around the world learned for the first time about the Beta Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia. Their religion, race and culture are quite different from ours, and we had not even known that they existed before the famine. And yet, our hearts went out to them as our fellow Jews during this period of famine, like distant cousins we had never met, and Jews from around the world helped them to emigrate to Israel.

When a member of our "family" does something illegal, immoral or shameful, we all feel the shame, and we all feel that it reflects on us. As Jews, many of us were embarrassed by the Monica Lewinsky scandal, or the Jack Abramoff affair, because Lewinsky and Abramoff are Jews. We were shocked when Israeli Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin was killed by a Jew, unable to believe that one Jew would ever kill another member of the "family."

And when a member of our "family" accomplishes something significant, we all feel proud. A perfect example of Jews (even completely secular ones) delighting in the accomplishments of our fellow Jews is the perennial popularity of Adam Sandler's Chanukkah songs, listing famous people who are Jewish. We all take pride in scientists like Albert Einstein or political leaders like Joe Lieberman (we don't all agree with his politics or his religious views, but we were all proud to see him on a national ticket). And is there a Jew who doesn't know (or at least feel pride upon learning) that Sandy Koufax declined to pitch in a World Series game that fell on Yom Kippur?
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 215
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/11/2009 1:17:15 PM

A Jew* in all the normal and Jewish sense of being a Jew comes to the belief that Jesus is the Messiah and in his heart and soul and conscience and mind and whole beingbelieves this to be the truth and accepts it as a revelation from God. In my world such a person is a Jew who believes Jesus is the Messiah. They believe themselves to be a Jew still. They speak of a sense of fulfillment of their "Jewishness". They seem to be as "Jewish" as they were before.


You've chosen to selectively redefine what it means to be a Jew then. Everyone else who is a Jew, every other group who identifies as a Jew, with the exception of Christians and Messianic Jews do not use this definition.

By analogy, if a bunch of electricians went and took a weekend plumbing course and decided to start calling themselves master plumbers, every plumber in the world, every plumbing union and every plumbing certification organization would say you can call yourself a plumber all you like and believe it all you want...you can even say God calls you in your heart to be a plumber. But according to us - and frankly that's what counts here, you're not a damn plumber.

And as I stated in my last post, no denomination of other Jews, organization of Jews, or even the State of Israel recognizes Messianic Jews for anything other than Christians.
Are they "Jews in their heart" or as Rabbi Singer jokes "cardiac Jews"?

Now is the question - which you seem to be hinting at - is someone who was Jewish by birth or family tradition no longer Jewish because they now practice a Messianic religion?

The wiki stub clears it up and has ample footnotes should a person need to look further:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jews

Messianic Judaism is a religious movement whose adherents believe that Jesus of Nazareth, whom they call Yeshua, is both the resurrected Jewish Messiah and their Divine Savior.[1][2][3]

The central characteristic defining the Messianic Jewish movement as Christian, rather than Jewish, is its belief in the divinity of their Messiah, Jesus.[4] This central tenet of belief is seen by the great majority of Christians and Jews as being the defining distinction between the two religions.[5][6] This is also the opinion of the Supreme Court of Israel regarding immediate and automatic eligibility for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.[7]

Similarly, Messianic Judaism differs widely from mainstream Christianity in adherents' observation of Jewish Law which is often discouraged in churches.[8] These observances include observing the Jewish Sabbath, abstaining from pork, shellfish, and other foods banned by Jewish law, and observing Jewish holidays.

As of 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. As of 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide.[9] By 2008, the number of Messianics in the United States was around a quarter million.[10] The number of Messianic Jews in Israel is reported to be anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 members.[11][12]

Although many Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish and argue that Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism,[13] the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism.[14][6] Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[5]

Jewish objections

Jewish objections to Messianic Judaism are numerous and often begin with objections to the term "Messianic Judaism" itself: It is objected that Judaism is a messianic religion, but that its messiah is not Jesus,[4] thus the term is misleading.[73]

Use of "Judaism" in the term is also considered misleading and as a subversive tactic used for missionary purposes. Messianic Jews are only considered eligible for the State of Israel's Law of Return if they can also claim Jewish descent[7]. An assistant to one of the two lawyers involved with an April 2008 Supreme Court of Israel case explained to the Jerusalem Post that Messianics were "entitled to automatic new immigrant status and citizenship precisely because they were not Jews as defined by the Law of Return, but rather because they were the offspring of Jewish fathers" [74].

Several anti-missionary organizations, such as Outreach Judaism and Jews for Judaism oppose Messianic Judaism on theological grounds, usually from an Orthodox Jewish perspective. In recent years these organizations have noticeably shifted their focus from countering the missionizing of Jews in the name of Christianity to countering the spread of Messianic Judaism. The Jewish anti-missionary organizations view the latter (Messianic Judaism) as a more threatening and subversive form of apostacy than the former (openly missionizing in the name of Christianity).

Denominations and organizations

All denominations of Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations reject Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism.[14][6][75]

According to the Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform):

"For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, she is clearly a Christian."[76]

Concerning Christian-Jewish reconciliation and Christian missions to the Jews, Emil Fackenheim wrote:

"…Except in relations with Christians, the Christ of Christianity is not a Jewish issue. There simply can be no dialogue worthy of the name unless Christians accept — nay, treasure — the fact that Jews through the two millennia of Christianity have had an agenda of their own. There can be no Jewish-Christian dialogue worthy of the name unless one Christian activity is abandoned, missions to the Jews. It must be abandoned, moreover, not as a temporary strategy but in principle, as a bimillennial theological mistake. The cost of that mistake in Christian love and Jewish blood one hesitates to contemplate. …A post-Holocaust Jew can still view Christian attempts to convert Jews as sincere and well intended. But even as such they are no longer acceptable: They have become attempts to do in one way what Hitler did in another."[77]

According to a 1998 Audit of Antisemitic Incidents issued by Canadian B'nai Brith,

"One of the more alarming trends in antisemitic activity in Canada in 1998 was the growing number of incidents involving messianic organizations posing as "synagogues". These missionizing organizations are in fact evangelical Christian proselytizing groups, whose purpose is specifically to target members of the Jewish community for conversion. They fraudulently represent themselves as Jews, and these so-called synagogues are elaborately disguised Christian churches."[78]

 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 216
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/11/2009 2:01:42 PM
Any Rabbi who teaches against the books of Moses is doing his followers a disservice. I challange that Rabbi to read the words and see that he is wrong. You do not stop being the child of Jews just because you go to church. You are Jewish by birth as it is writen and if one part of the writings the Rabbi reads from is to be made out to be untrue then the whole Scroll should be tossed out.
In the begining God Created and the word used for God is a singular plural. That rabbi is flawed in his teaching and all that follow him should read the books to know what is true. Quote who ever you want I am right and they are wrong. Jesus taught only from the Jewish writings and everyone knows Christians are people of the book.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 217
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/11/2009 2:20:08 PM


Any Rabbi who teaches against the books of Moses is doing his followers a disservice. I challange that Rabbi to read the words and see that he is wrong. You do not stop being the child of Jews just because you go to church. You are Jewish by birth as it is writen and if one part of the writings the Rabbi reads from is to be made out to be untrue then the whole Scroll should be tossed out.
In the begining God Created and the word used for God is a singular plural. That rabbi is flawed in his teaching and all that follow him should read the books to know what is true. Quote who ever you want I am right and they are wrong. Jesus taught only from the Jewish writings and everyone knows Christians are people of the book.


Pfft. There are whole LIBRARIES full of books about this subject that frankly you don't seem to have clue one about. And frankly, I'm prepared to take the word of a scholar, teacher and holy person of Judaism who speaks Hebrew and knows his Bible and all of its writings and laws back to front over some person on the internet who belongs to another religion altogether.

Do you get your tires changed by your butcher? Does your grocery clerk do your open heart surgery? I don't think so.

The books of Moses make very clear what happens to Jews who worship Gods other than him. They are breaking his covenant. It doesn't say they can't regain it...but until they atone for the sin of idolatry and worship Haschem again, they are no longer Jews as far as the Law is concerned - they are apostates. The Law is very clear on that subject whether they were "born" Jews or converts.

I know that and I am not even a rabinnical student...my question to you is how do you not know this? The information is readily available. Are you saying that YOU know more about the Jewish faith than the rabbis who teach it? If that's the case, I can simply write you off as an idiot and we don't have to continue this conversation.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 219
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/11/2009 2:40:42 PM


tmf, we'll have to agree to disagree I think. I don't believe myself qualified to judge who a person is before God and whether they are entitled to call themselves "Jew". As I've stated before, except for overwhelming evidence to the contrary, if they call themselves "Jews" I accept that they are better qualified to know the state of their own hearts, their own faith, and their own relationship with God. At such moments legal - or legalistic - definitions hardly matter.


If we are talking about "before God" then I agree with you...that is a different kettle of fish altogether. I am only talking about terrestrial definitions.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 220
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/11/2009 2:58:30 PM
I do not care if there are whole worlds about this topic if they disagree with me they are wrong because I am in agreement with the God who wrote the book. No one can say the blessing without using the singular plural form of God and that lordship is one. If you say listen our family is one you are not saying you are the only member of your family you are saying that your family is in unity. Moses wrote about Jesus as did all of the others David was not talking about his self when he wrote "the Lord said to my lord" he was talking about our lord Jesus. Rabbi should know
They can say or believe whatever they want but the Word stands no matter how they scribble on. I'd get my tiers changed by a butcher if that butcher knew how to change a tire and what did your doctor do to support his self in school? He may have worked in a store no rule aginst it.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 221
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/11/2009 3:19:07 PM

No one can say the blessing without using the singular plural form of God and that lordship is one.


http://www.outreachjudaism.org/trinity.html

Question:

I am about to begin a conversion process. My boyfriend is Jewish and I wish to convert before we marry. I have believed for many years that this is the way for me and will be the way in which I bring up my children.

I have a born-again Christian friend coming to visit me next weekend. She has been very involved in Messianic Judaism (even though she is a gentile) and I know she is going to have a big talk with me. I want to be able to answer her intelligently. I know exactly the one she is going to throw at me and I would like some help with the answer. She is going to talk about the time in the bible (can't remember where it is) when they bought back a sample of the fruits of the promised land. Apparently it says that they bought "echad" grapes. The word "echad," although it refers to ONE, is talking about a BUNCH of grapes. Therefore, when we talk about "Adonai Echad," we can be talking about three gods in one.

None of this rings true for me, but I want to be well thought out on all of this. Would you please help ASAP. (She is arriving next weekend!)

Answer:

I am very pleased that you have asked this question because I am certain that some of our Jewish readers will be quite taken aback by your dilemma. How can I be so sure that they will be stunned by simply reading your question? Try to imagine the astonished reaction of a Jew (who has his monotheism intact) as he discovers from your question that missionaries use his cherished national creed, "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one" (Hebrew: echad), to prove the doctrine of the Trinity. To the surprise of many, Trinitarians will often use this celebrated verse to support their belief in a triune nature of God. Let's examine this missionary argument more closely.

To support their claim that there are multiple persons within the godhead, missionaries insist that the Hebrew word echad (one) at the end of Deuteronomy 6:4 does not mean an absolute one, but rather it can only signify a compound unity, or many things in one. They will often cite two verses to support this assertion. The first is the one you have mentioned, Numbers 13:23 reads,

Then they came to the Valley of Eshcol, and there cut down a branch with one (echad) cluster of grapes; they carried it between two of them on a pole. They also brought some of the pomegranates and figs.

The second is Genesis 1:5, which reads,

. . . and there was evening and there was morning, one (echad) day.

From these verses, they contend, it is clear that the Hebrew word echad can only mean a fusion of a number of things into one.

Although this "proof" is as flawed as the doctrine it seeks to support, for those who lack an elementary knowledge of the Hebrew language, this argument can be rather puzzling.

The word echad in the Hebrew language functions in precisely the same manner as the word "one" does in the English language. In the English language it can be said, "these four chairs and the table constitute one dinette set," or alternatively, "There is one penny in my hand." Using these two examples, it is easy to see how the English word "one" can mean either many things in one, as in the case of the dinette set, or one alone, as in the case of the penny.

Although the Hebrew word echad functions in the exact same manner, evangelical Christians will never offer biblical examples
where the word echad means "one alone." Thus, by only presenting scriptural verses such as Genesis 1:5 and Numbers 23:13, it creates the illusion to the novice that the word echad is somehow synonymous with a compound unity. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth. For example, Deuteronomy 17:6 reads,

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one (echad) witness he shall not be put to death.

or Ecclesiastes 4:8 reads,

There is one (echad) alone, without a companion; yes he has neither son . . . .

In the above two verses the exact same Hebrew word is used, and clearly the word echad is referring to one alone, not a
compound unity.

The question that immediately comes to mind is: If the Hebrew word echad can signify either a compound unity or one alone, how can one tell which definition is operative when studying a verse? The answer is: In the exact same way the word "one" is understood in the English language, that is, from the context. "Four chairs and a table make up one dinette set" is a compound unity, and "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one" is unsullied monotheism.

I thank you for your question, and may the Merciful One guide you in your conversion process.

Sincerely yours,

Rabbi Singer




David was not talking about his self when he wrote "the Lord said to my lord" he was talking about our lord Jesus. Rabbi should know


http://www.outreachjudaism.org/psalm110.html

Question:

Dear Rabbi Singer,

A co-worker and friend of mine, who I know is a fundamentalist Christian, recently asked me what Jews think about the Trinity. I told him that the concept is not part of our religion and that Jews believe in only one God. He went on to ask me to explain Psalm 110 to him, which starts in English, "The Lord said unto my Lord . . . ." To him this is yet another proof of the trinity. I could not give him an answer to his question. Would you please explain the meaning of this.

Thank You.

Answer:

Psalm 110 represents one of the New Testament's most stunning, yet clever mistranslations of the Jewish scriptures. Moreover, the confusion created by the Christianization of this verse was further perpetuated and promulgated by numerous Christian translators of the Bible as well. As you will soon see, some Christian translators, to their credit, refrain from rewriting this text in Psalm 110.

The story of the church's tampering with Psalm 110 is so old that it begins in the Christian canon itself. In the Gospels we find the church's first use of Psalm 110, and it begins with a question. In Matthew 22:41-44 Matthew's Jesus turns to the Pharisees and asks them,

What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?

The question in laymen's terms is, "Of whom is the messiah supposed to be a descendant?"

They said to him, "The son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the spirit call him 'Lord,' saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool"?' If David then called him Lord, how is he his son?" No one was able to answer him a word, neither did any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Although the above conversation could never have occurred, I am certain this narrative has been replayed over and over again in the imagination of countless Christians for nearly 1,900 years.

It's an inspiring story to the Christian believer. Jesus really showed those Pharisees how little they knew! Yet, this is precisely why this story could never have transpired. No Jew who had even a superficial knowledge of the Jewish scriptures would have ever found Jesus' argument compelling, let alone a conversation stopper. The depth of knowledge that the Pharisees possessed of Tanach was astounding.

Let's take a closer look at the original verse from which Matthew's Jesus quoted so that you have a sense of how the original Hebrew text was masked. The New American Standard Bible (NASB), one of the most widely read Christian Bibles in use today, translates Psalm 110:1 in the following manner,

The Lord said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet."

It appears from the NASB translation that the "Lord," which is God, "said unto to my Lord" -- who missionaries would have you believe is Jesus (David's "Lord") -- "Sit thou on my right hand, till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet."

Is the above verse speaking about Jesus? Not at all, yet look at the first word "Lord" in the verse. Now look at the second word "Lord" (they are only three words apart). Did you notice any difference between them? You didn't because the Christian translator carefully masked what it actually says in the text of the original Hebrew.

Although the two English words in the NASB translation are carefully made to appear identical, in the original Hebrew text they are entirely different. Whereas the first word "Lord" in the Hebrew is a correct translation of ,1, which is the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), the ineffable name of God, the second word "Lord" is a complete and deliberate mistranslation of the text. The second word "Lord" in the verse is an appalling translation of the Hebrew word (pronounced ladonee). The correct translation of ladonee is "to my master" or "to my lord." The Hebrew word adonee never refers to God anywhere in the Bible. It is only used for the profane, never the sacred. That is to say, God, the Creator of the universe, is never called adonee in the Bible. There are many words reserved for God in the Bible; adonee, however, is not one of them.

To illustrate this, let's look for a completely different place in the Bible where the exact same Hebrew word appears and find out how the same New American Standard Bible translates it there.

For example, we find the same word, (ladonee), used in the following two verses which have been translated by the same New American Standard Bible where the identical word is used as in Psalm 110:

Then he and the men who were with him ate and drank and spent the night. When they arose in the morning, he said, "Send me away to my master
(ladonee: )." (Genesis 24:54, New American Standard Bible)

He also commanded them saying, "Thus you shall say to my lord (ladonee: ) Esau, 'Thus says your servant Jacob, "I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed until now." ' " (Genesis 32:4, New American Standard Bible)

The Hebrew word ladonee used in the above two verses is referring to Abraham and Esau, respectively. Notice that the Hebrew word used in both verses is identical to the Hebrew word in Psalm 110:1. Why did the New American Standard Bible translate ladonee correctly in Genesis 24:54 as "to my master," or in Genesis 32:4 as "to my lord," yet, for some reason, in Psalm 110:1 mistranslate it as "Lord"?

The answer is obvious. Both Genesis 24:54 and Genesis 32:4 are not texts used by the church to "prove" Jesus from the Jewish scriptures and therefore they had no reason to tamper with them. Psalm 110:1, on the other hand, is a verse that is flaunted by the New Testament and its missionaries as a verse that evangelicals insist "unquestionably points only to Jesus," and it therefore was deliberately mistranslated.

Some Christian translations are more transparent in their rendering of Psalm 110 than the New American Standard Bible. For example, the King James Version and a few other Bibles still render the second "Lord" as if it were sacred; however, they translate the first "LORD" in upper case. This is a helpful hint to the keen observer that there is a distinction between them. Of course, it's up to the curious Bible student to then look up the second "Lord" in a Hebrew Bible. Only such a deliberate and thorough investigation would uncover how the text was doctored.

It should be noted that while many Christian translators indulge in this manipulation of Psalm 110:1, some do not. Numerous modern Christian Bibles have corrected Matthew's mistranslation. For example, the Revised Standard Version and the New English Bible correctly render the Hebrew word ladonee as " to my lord," in Psalm 110:1, indicating that it is not speaking of God.

As mentioned above, this tampering with Psalm 110:1 began long ago in the Christian Bible itself. The Christian translators, who would later also mistranslate this verse, simply followed in the footsteps of the author of the first Gospel. If we look at the original Greek of Matthew 22:44 we find the same doctoring of the text in later Christian translations of the Book of Psalms. When Matthew has Jesus quote Psalm 110:1 to the Pharisees, the identical Greek word kurios2 (pronounced koo-re-os) is used both times the word "Lord" appears in Matthew 22:44.

Finally, it is essential that I explain the meaning of Psalm 110:1. Of whom is this Psalm really speaking? To whom are the words "my master" or "my lord" referring?

The Psalm begins with the opening Hebrew words "Mizmor l'David." The word "Mizmor" means "a song," and thus the opening phrase of this Psalm is, "A Song of David." In fact, the word Psalms comes from the Greek word psalmos, which means "a song." This is unknown to many Bible readers.

Why would King David be writing these songs? For whom was he writing them? By whom were they to be sung? With these questions in mind, we can begin to understand the intent of Psalm 110.

One of the great disappointments in King David's illustrious life occurred when God refused his request to build the first Temple in Jerusalem. Although David's son Solomon undertook that task and eventually constructed the first Temple, David's connection to it was significant.

For example, David founded the city of Jerusalem, the city where the Temple was built. In fact, both the city and the Temple were called after him, the City and Temple of David. Moreover, he made preparations for the building of the Temple, and even arranged for the Temple service (II Samuel 7; I Chronicles 14-17, 22-26). This is where the Book of Psalms played its central role. King David was a faithful servant of God who possessed extraordinary skills as a teacher, musician, and poet. In fact, King David authored most of the Book of Psalms. The original purpose for which King David composed the Book of Psalms was for the Levites to sing them in the Temple. The Levites would stand on a platform and joyfully chant these spiritually exhilarating Psalms to an inspired people. King David composed Psalm 110 for liturgical recitation by the Levites in the Temple years after his death. Therefore, the Levites would read this lyric,

The Lord [God] said to my master [King David] "Sit thou at my right hand . . . ."

For the church, however, the Psalmist's original intent was superseded by its interest in Christianizing this verse. Thus, the opening verse in Psalm 110 was altered in order to paint Jesus into the Jewish scriptures.

Here is some advice. The only way to recognize such rampant Christian tampering of the Bible is to be able to read it in the original, without the aid of the Christian translator. Therefore, give your children a good Jewish education. Remember, the success of the missionaries who target us represents the unpaid bills of the Jewish people.

Sincerely yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer


Footnotes:

Click on the footnote to return to the article


1The hyphens which appear between the last two Hebrew letters, the vav and the hey, were inserted by the author for the purpose of not inappropriately placing the sacred name of God on a web site where it might be printed out and then eventually discarded.

2 Although the two Greek words kurios in this verse are the same, they are written with a slightly different syntax. Whereas the Greek word for the first word "Lord" in Matthew 22:44 is kurios, the Greek word for the second word "Lord" is kurio, because the latter is in the dative case, indicating "to" or "for" which an action occurs. This Greek syntax functions similarly to how the lamed does as a prefix in the Hebrew language.



I do not care if there are whole worlds about this topic if they disagree with me they are wrong because I am in agreement with the God who wrote the book.


Do you speak or read Hebrew? I sure don't. But I do happen to know a few people like these rabbis who do. Apparently they seem to know that book a little better than you do. You go on believing though



I'd get my tiers changed by a butcher if that butcher knew how to change a tire and what did your doctor do to support his self in school? He may have worked in a store no rule aginst it.


Let me rephrase that analogy so you'll get it. Would you let the auto mechanic perform open heart surgery on you or a family member if he wasn't a trained doctor? Would you let a tire mechanic cut your meat if he wasn't a trained butcher? If you can't get this simple analogy - or want to continue trying to weasel your way out of it, I don't think we have much more to talk about...although I would like to see you weasel your way out of the explanations given at those two links.

Chances are the best you will come up with is to stomp your foot and say "I believe it and God told me so and that's all there is to it." That of course could be used to justify any believe from the sublime to the silly. That you can't see this is par for the course.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 222
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/17/2009 7:05:06 PM


Do you speak or read Hebrew? I sure don't. But I do happen to know a few people like these rabbis who do. Apparently they seem to know that book a little better than you do. You go on believing though


Yes I've been a part of biblical studies for over 20 years and there are books about each word in the first five books. The first word for God used is a singular pural I am too sleepy to go on. If you want to believe that Rabbi and other followers of that form of thought peace between us. I think if your brother came over to me and said you were not his brother I would go to your parent and ask. I would not go to your brother's friends or children. I would go to your parents who would say yes he is my son. According to the book Messianic Jews are Jews.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 223
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/17/2009 7:12:06 PM


Yes I've been a part of biblical studies for over 20 years and there are books about each word in the first five books. The first word for God used is a singular pural I am too sleepy to go on. If you want to believe that Rabbi and other followers of that form of thought peace between us. I think if your brother came over to me and said you were not his brother I would go to your parent and ask. I would not go to your brother's friends or children. I would go to your parents who would say yes he is my son. According to the book Messianic Jews are Jews.


Respectfully, I have to submit myself to the rabbi's expertise on the matter before I would take your word for it because frankly on this his credentials are FAR superior to yours and a whole lot of other peoples. He deals with questions and issues like this and others on a daily basis. Do you have a cogent response to any of his arguments or the issues he raises?

As to the name of G-d being a singular plural, guess what, he's dealt with that too:



Question:


Dear Rabbi Singer,

A Messianic Jew is working overtime to try to convince me that I need JC. She recently showed me Genesis 1:26, “Let US make man in OUR image,” stating that JC was part of creation with G-d, plural Us and Our being the proof. Can you explain the plural in this verse to me? I want to have an intelligent answer. I am trying very hard to learn more of my Jewish religion, as I was raised in a non-religious home. The only Bible I own is the one she gave me and it is a King James.


Answer:

No area of Jewish literature could be more inhospitable to the Christian doctrine of the triune godhead than the Torah and the writings of its prophetic messengers. It is on the strength of these sacred texts that the Jew has preserved the concept of one, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to “prove” the doctrine of the Trinity from the Jewish scriptures. No prophet went silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the godhead.

Because the prophets relayed their divine message on the nature of God with such timeless clarity, few texts in Tanach could hold any promise for the church to raise up as a support for their teachings on the Trinity. Understandably, though, the defenders of Christendom flaunted the very few verses that they managed to somehow skew into a supposed support for this alien doctrine.

One of the most popular verses used by missionaries as a proof text for the Trinity is Genesis 1:26. This verse appears in missionary literature quite often in spite of the fact that this argument has been answered countless times throughout the centuries. Let’s examine Genesis 1:26.

And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and they shall rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

With limited knowledge of the Jewish scriptures, missionaries advance the above verse in as evidence that there was a plurality in the godhead which was responsible for creation. What other explanation could adequately account for the Bible’s use of the plural pronouns such as “us” and “our” in this verse?

This argument, however, is grievously flawed. In fact, a great number of Trinitarian Christian scholars have long abandoned the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject. For example, the evangelical Christian author Gordon J. Wenham, who is no foe of the Trinity and authored a widely respected two-volume commentary on the Book of Genesis, writes on this verse,

Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.1

If you had attended any one of my lectures you would know that the New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also writes in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our . . . Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18)2

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our. Plurals of majesty.3

The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the Reverend Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,

The plural pronoun “Us” is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.4

The 10-volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch is considered by many to be the most influential exposition on the “Old Testament” in evangelical circles. Yet in its commentary on Genesis 1:26, we find,

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity; modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis . . . No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis . . . .5

The question that immediately comes to mind is: What would compel these evangelical scholars -- all of whom are Trinitarian -- to determinedly conclude that Genesis 1:26 does not suggest the Trinity, but rather a majestic address to the angelic hosts of heaven? Why would the comments of the above conservative Christian writers so perfectly harmonize with the Jewish teaching on this verse?

The answer to this question is simple. If you search the Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his angels known as Cherubim to stand at the gate of the Garden of Eden waving a flaming sword so that mankind is prevented from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine Genesis 3:22-24.

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” -- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what is intended by the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of Bible sources from the Jewish scriptures to support its position that “God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”6

I will close this letter with one final note. Outsiders often wonder what binding force keeps the Jewish people united in faith. This is not so odd a question when we consider the inner conflict that has followed our people throughout our extraordinary history. Bear in mind that regardless of the turbulent quarrels that fester among us, the oneness of God remains the binding thread which unites the Jewish people in history and witness. The teachings of the Torah were designed to set forever in the national conscience of the Jewish people the idea that God is one alone and therefore the only object of our devotion and worship.

Sincerely yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer



Footnotes:

Click on the footnote to return to the article


1Gordon J. Wenham, Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, Word Books, 1987, p. 27.

2NIV Study Bible, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, p. 7.

3Charles Caldwell Ryrie, The Ryrie Study Bible (Dallas Theological Seminary), Chicago: Moody Press, 1978, p. 9.

4Jerry Falwell (Executive Editor), Liberty Annotated Study Bible, Lynchburg: Liberty University, 1988, p. 8.

5Keil & Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, Peabody: Hendric., 1989, Vol. I, p. 62.

6A similar verse describing God as He converses with His ministering angels is found in the beginning of the sixth chapter of Isaiah, which reads,

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the Temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew . . . Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” (Isaiah 6:1, 8)
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 224
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/17/2009 7:18:20 PM
no you do not you want to submit yourself to him because you do not want to be found wrong and he tell you you are right. If you wanted to you could submit to any one or study it out and stop being lazy.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 225
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/18/2009 1:12:35 PM


no you do not you want to submit yourself to him because you do not want to be found wrong and he tell you you are right. If you wanted to you could submit to any one or study it out and stop being lazy.


Sorry...uh what? That doesn't exactly parse.

I said I had to "submit myself to the rabbi's expertise on the matter before I would take your word for it because frankly on this his credentials are FAR superior to yours and a whole lot of other peoples." And so I have. That is his answer to one of the questions you posed. There is no "laziness" in admitting when someone has more knowledge and expertise on a subject that you do...that is just being honest and knowing your limitations.

I would never presume, for instance, to tell someone that I knew the teachings of Judaism better than an Orthodox Jewish rabbi who has made it his life's work to study that faith and teach it to others, which is why when someone asks a question regarding it, I would source what they had to say rather than "do-it-myself" because its more than obvious the rabbi is going to be able to answer the question better than I can. That's just common sense, not laziness. The contrary - assuming that you somehow can discern better the answer based on some nebulous concept like your own impressions or faith or what you feel like, rather than actual knowledge of a subject is not only hubris of the worst kind...it's also frankly kinda nuts.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 226
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/18/2009 10:02:49 PM
You do not know my credentials and I like it that way. Personal information should not begiven in a forum setting but you site sources that are wrong and I gave you real sources to look at and you came back with what some one said. I can quot the children of Isreal's Brother or Uncle they say that Esau or Ishmael was the favored son of Abraham and give you all the quotes they teach to prove that the Jews are not God's chosen. I can quote from Midion Abrahams last named son on how they are the blessed seed. You want to quote from a Rabbi that is doing the same thing. "I am more Abraham's son then they are because...." If that Rabbi has not ever gave a sacrifice on the alter in the holy place he is cut off from his people.

What?

I say if this Rabbi did not obey every piont of the law as it was writen then he is cut off from the people. If he wants to piont to a part of the writings and refuse to see it all so be it. I studied Judaism and I know its holes. I know its holes when it comes to scriptures it does not like. It is caused by emotion not logic that is why he would quote Falwell.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 227
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 1/19/2009 12:17:57 AM


but you site sources that are wrong


So prove it. And do it on topic or this is just a waste of time and forum space.



I studied Judaism and I know its holes. I know its holes when it comes to scriptures it does not like. It is caused by emotion not logic that is why he would quote Falwell.


Bluster and bravado do not make a very persuasive argument. Either put up or frankly shut up. So far, I have seen nothing to indicate to me that you have studied anything of Judaism at all...make an argument related to the OP, or hit the bricks. The last thing the moderators here need to deal with is another preaching troll that just wants to bash some religion because they can't put together a cogent argument...but I will be more than happy to call them in to put the brakes on this nonsense if you can't address the point.
 return-to-the-sea
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 228
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 4/29/2009 3:43:05 PM
It's an old (and boring) argument. I've run into this before with these folks. Some of them call themselves "Jews for Jesus," but to be direct, what he's saying isn't true. It's a born again Christian spin. Either you're a Jew or a Christian, you can't be both. The belief systems are incompatible, despite the "spin." Having been on both sides of the fence, I speak from direct experience.

And now, having left Judaism over 20 years ago, it's a bit funny that the same drama is still going on.

RTTS
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 230
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 11/13/2009 9:15:14 PM

Either you're a Jew or a Christian

So what was Jesus? Paul? Peter James John... That is total bull. you can not stop being what you are. This craziness is as stupid as replacement theology.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 234
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 12/26/2009 6:31:45 PM
RE Msg: 231 by Chiny®™©:

Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
IMO.......Yes........of course they are.

When Jesus embarked on his ministry, his discourse was with his own people. He never addressed or sermonised to the goyim/infidel or gentile if you like, his mission was primarily focused on the children of Abraham, the Jews and those others of the larger Semite Family. All his disciples were Jews whom were the first converts to his new interpretations of his Father’s Word as presented in the Torah or Books of Moses. BTW indifference to what most assumed “Christians” believe, Jesus stated quite plainly “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them”. In other words he has come not to delete the Laws of his Father or the Prophets as stated in the Torah but to reboot them back into place but this time as he has interpreted them. The Old Testament remains wholly relevant and was never replaced by the New Testament. Jesus was starting a new sect, an off-shoot, a new interpretation of his Fathers Word as written by Moses but still remaining within Judaism but opposed or distinct from the old rabbinic interpretations. This is where he first ran afoul of the old rabbi’s of the old synagogue.
That is one way of looking at things. However, Jesus wasn't the only one preaching a different interpretation of the OT. There was also the Saduccess, the Beithusim, the Essenes, the Samaritans, and the Karaites. Today, there are also the Reform Jews. There are many more groups. So if the Messianic people are Jewish, then so are all those other people.

In reality, you can say that:
1) According to Messianic Jewish people, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
2) According to the Saduccess, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
3) According to the Beithusim, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
4) According to the Essenes, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
5) According to the Samaritans, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
6) According to the Karaites, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
7) According to Reform Jews, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
8) According to Orthodox Jews, they are Jewish, but the rest might not be.
They all have their own rules for who is Jewish, according to their interpretation of Judaism.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 235
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 2/1/2010 4:05:52 AM
RE Msg: 235 by Csonka:
The Hebrew church by the ninth century under Roman papacy was much changed and I would think but do not know, they were not Jewish anymore.
That's the problem. Orthodox Jews called their places of worship "synagogues", because they didn't change, despite the huge efforts of the Romans to stamp out traditional Judaism in order to Romanise the Jews. It was the Hebrew Xians who changed the names of their places of worship from being "synagogues" to being "churches", because they changed to suit the Romans. That was the biggest split between Xians and Jews, and that was when Jews finally realised that Xianity was more than just a messianic sect, but was actually a whole different religion, as different as Islam is from Xianity.

Even hypocritically, some taught against Jesus, after being refused baptism by John and having Him killed, a guilty few at the top.
That was the Roman papacy's influence. Far better to claim that their rivals (Orthodox Jews) killed Jesus, than to admit their patrons (the Romans) killed their messiah.

Most of Israel didn't hear the message in power.
From what I understand, Jesus went about preaching in public. I don't know about you. But I can say that even nowadays, Word of Mouth is still powerful in the Jewish Community. Back then, Word of Mouth was the main form of communication. So if Jesus left his house and started preaching, everyone heard about it. It's just that most Jews didn't want to follow Jesus.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 236
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jews Still Jews?
Posted: 2/1/2010 2:01:11 PM
RE Msg: 237 by Csonka:
But Scorpio, are not the oldest Gospels writen by Jesus close disciples, and they mention that the Jewish leaders handed Jesus over.
There were plenty of dodgy things going on in Israel at the time by lots of dodgy people. The Gospels don't pick on any of them.

The other problem is that the Xians weren't exactly the first people to have a problem with the Pharisees. Far from it. But all these groups weren't all saying nasty things about the Pharisees. They all agreed on one thing, and only one thing. They all were saying they could make up their own interpretations of the Bible. The only problem with that, was that they all agreed that the Pharisees were the bearers of traditional Judaism, and the Pharisees didn't agree with them. But that's not the only problem. You see, the Pharisees encouraged questioning. They actually believed it was a good thing to question their beliefs and argue with them. But if they won the argument, then you'd have lost your argument. That's the biggest problem facing all these groups: they argued with the Pharisees, they lost, and didn't like it.

So all I have, is yet another Johnny-Come-Lately group, who disagree with the interpretation of Judaism of the Pharisees, argued with them, lost the argument, and still wanted everyone sane to do the insane thing and follow the people whose arguments didn't stand up to scrutiny. They didn't like that, and then they blamed the death of their leader on the Jews.

The Jews didn't all lay down and do what the Romans wanted. There was a revolt in Syria, and the Romans responded by crucifying 5000 Jews. So crucifixtion didn't mean all that much as a form of execution.

The Romans went crazy after the Bar Kochba revolt in 132-136 CE, and slaughtered so many Jews in response that they almost drowned the fields in Jewish blood. The key thing about the Bar Kochba Revolt that the Romans didn't like, was that many of the Jews believed that Bar Kochba was the Messiah. The Romans were afraid that he would lead the Jews to unite in battle, as a force of millions. That was just too many for the Romans to take. So they were very against any possible Messiahs even before this. They had to keep the people down. So the last thing they wanted was someone claiming to be the Messiah, uniting millions of Jews against the Romans, especially when the Romans had not had total control of the land, which was the case during Jesus' life.

The most likely situation is that the Romans decided to kill Jesus for being a threat to the Romans, just because people said he was the Messiah.

Also the Jewish OT holds that prophets were usually bruised and often killed, like Isaiah?
Yes, by the Jews who followed idolatry. They killed the Rabbis, who are also called the Pharisees.

Also the Romans in their art clearly portray Romans killing Jesus.
The early Romans didn't have a problem with killing up Jewish rebels. But the later Xians did have a problem with saying their grandparents killed their own saviour. You don't need to be a genius to figure that one out.

Besides, I don't know if you know, but a few years ago, the Pope apologised for this erroneous claim about the Jews.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 237
view profile
History
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 2/21/2010 5:55:58 PM

almost eveyone except the Jews know that the Jew Jesus is the Messiah or Chirst [anointed one],


Everyone except the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoist, Confucionists, anyone practicing aboriginal religion . . .

According to this site, approximately 1/3 of the world's population is Christian. The other 2/3 do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. So your statement is statistically incorrect.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

# Christianity: 2.1 billion
# Islam: 1.5 billion
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
# Buddhism: 376 million
# primal-indigenous: 300 million
# African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
# Sikhism: 23 million
# Juche: 19 million
# Spiritism: 15 million
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 KanehB
Joined: 11/30/2009
Msg: 239
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 6/12/2010 11:43:26 AM
Was Christ 'Jewish'? Yes! He was of the tribe of Judah and followed the Torah completely, as were all of the disciples. I too, am a Messianic Jew. This means follower of Messiah, keeper of the Covenant, observer of the Holy Days and kosher eating. We follow the WHOLE Bible....not just part of it. Even Paul that wrote most of the New Testament called himself a Jew and was Messianic(follower of Messiah) tho he was of teh tribe of Benjamin.
Christianity didn't begin until the 3rd century. All 'Jewishness was forbidden for a while, as Constantine brought in sun-god worship.
I personalloy would LOVE to meet this man you speak of. They are rare.
 g.i.jane3868
Joined: 1/7/2012
Msg: 240
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 5/9/2012 1:34:30 AM
OH LORD, IF PEOPLE WILL READ. JESUS WAS JEWISH. YES JESUS CHRIST. WHO LEFT THE EARTH AT AGE OF 33.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 241
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 5/23/2012 11:45:58 AM
a Messianic Jew is still a Jew who has left his/her religion for a different religion.
if you are born to a Jewish mother (who has been born to a Jewish mother)..or has converted within the orthodox way....and born after the mother converted,....the person is still, halachically, a Jew.

many here have written things written in both the Old Testament (which by the way is NOT the Old Testament...it is the Torah, or Tanach) and the New Testament (which I think is called the New Covenent???Maybe??)
that are not meant to be taken literally. Most Jews who have went to Yeshivot or other Jewish schools know this. Too many Christians are unaware of Talmud and Mishdrash and Kabalah....which all help explain the Torah. There are different levels to understanding the true meaning of Torah. G0d does not have to look like a man because we are made in His image. Perhaps we are made in the image of his attributes,...not physicallity...since God is without form.

If Jesus was the messiah....he must have been Massiach ben Yosef and not Massiach ben David. has world peace arrived? have the dead been raised? Has the temple been rebuilt? these are things the Messiah will do...we all know there is no world peace.
also....perhaps Jesus was a Messiah,....there is a Messiah perhaps in every generation. However.....what Jews will never believe is that the Messiah was born of a virgin and that he is part of the trinitarian G0dhead. Man is not G0d. that is the main issue with believing in Jesus. the messiah will be a man,....not God. Annointed by G0d, chosen by God , but not God. we cannot see God and God is NOT a man nor in the form of a man. Worship to any other than G0d Himself is idol worship.
 Complete8
Joined: 4/22/2013
Msg: 242
Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 11/13/2013 9:01:43 PM
Yes. When you read the OT and the NT they are written with "Israel" as a nation and written as YHWH's desire for Israel to be "grafted" in through YeshuaHaMaschiach/Jesus the Christ. When you read the Torah/First 5 books of the Bible you will find there that Yah wrote to His People Israel. So the question is then asked, who is Israel? Israel was initially "Ya'akob/Jacob" who had 12 sons. Of these 12 on of them was Yehudah/Judah/The Jews (which is slang). Now. What happened to the other 11 brothers? Scripture is a great history lesson. When you read it, ask The Father, what are You trying to tell me? He will.
Shalom/Peace.
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