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Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?      Home login  
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 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 801
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out? Page 33 of 34    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34)
I think this post and the "Does this change your mind about spanking your child?"
post should be looked at together and see if there is a good way to spank the ADHD and ADD right out of the kids that act the way they do. I think you can spank the ADHD right out of most kids. I am not a real doctor, but a do play one down at the beer barn when I am trying to pick up the chicks there. I think my spanking cure should be tried before the drugs.
 dolphinlvr36
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 802
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 6:52:42 PM
[To add to the problem, many school administators will attempt to force parents into medicating their children, making the diagnosis on their own.]

Actually, we are not allowed to tell a parent we think their child is ADD, or ADHD. I can only tell the parent what I see in the classroom, and make suggestions (not meaning medication here) as to what can help. The thing is, teachers are usually the first to pick up on a kid having this problem, because in some cases we spend more time with a child then the parent (we get them a large portion of the day).

A child with ADHD can certainly spend a large chunk of time in front of a video game, and struggle in the classroom....It's like a "down" for them. In a lot of cases, if you give a child with ADHD caffeine, it will actually calm them down, whereas a kid without ADHD will go wild.

I have spent time as a nurse, in a pediatrician's office, for 11 years before I started teaching. I've had the opportunity to see both sides of the spectrum. Yes, there are doctors and parents out there willing to "drug" up their kid quickly. However, there are MANY doctors out there willing to look at other factors. Just last year I had a student who was having issues with behavior in the classroom. We sat down and had a conference with the parents, and we decided to try and take certain things out of his diet. We saw an immediate change. I truly believe that the things our kids (and we as adults) are exposed to in our environment have played a huge impact in lots of ways, ADHD being one. I also know that, just like depression, it can be caused by problems with the neurons in the brain.

I think some of the issues with this problem could be solved with education about the problem. Unfortunately, just like lawyers, chefs, bankers etc., not all doctors are great doctors who are willing to take the time to do the education. Sometimes, it is pressure from the parent(s) to give the kid the medication.
 Sarahbecca814
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 803
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 7:34:26 PM
Freetime2bme, even if this is a joke it is not at all funny. There are people out there that believe this. I know of one in particular and its my son's father. SO i can tell you the results of this hypothesis as my ex beat my son so brutally at the tender age of 4 that he now suffers from PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) on top of his ADHD. He now also has serious issues with anxiety. I had to do therapy with him for 8 months to get him to even be able to trust ME again. If you have children i'd like you to think of what it must be like for your child to feel like he can't trust you and therefore shows no affection towards you for that long or longer, cuz of what some STUPID idiot like you did. And he still has a long road of therapy ahead of him, but i do mostly have my baby back at least. However that is only cuz this beating only happened ONE time. For children who endure this kind of logic more could leave permanent lifetime scars and may not be able to be helped like my son was. You disgust me.
 friends2b
Joined: 9/16/2009
Msg: 804
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:04:13 PM
Ok one thing I never understood since I have a few nephews that supposedly have ADHD and/or ADD. If kids have a hard time focusing why is it that the only time they have the focus issue in is when they are doing something they don’t like to do? They can focus very well when playing games but not when they are studding. They can behave very well when they know that they would get spanked if they don’t behave. Their memory is fantastic when it comes down to girls phone numbers, what was the score in the 1969 World Series while being born in 90’s. They can remember the names of every NFL player but not the ABC’s. It seems a little convenient that a child’s disease some how is a problem when they walk into a school. Then we have our school teachers that for some reason can’t seem to teach our kids to read or write but yet they have a medical degree for a disease that their is no real test for except for some questions and observation of behavior. If we were not talking about kids and ADHD & ADD what would anyone think of teachers and schools? And let me say I respect teachers and the hard work they do but we have a big problem in this country today with incompetence in our schools. I really do feel that most of the kids have a diseases called Lack of discipline compile with boredom that is contracted by spending to much time in building infected with incompetence.
 Sarahbecca814
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 805
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:13:39 PM
For the original post, i've been dealing with my son's disorder for close to 2 years. Allergy testing, psychiatrists, special schools, changing diet, behavior analysts, and therapists. I have 2 children, one is ADHD, the other is not. You can tell a major difference. With an ADHD child they know what to do, and not to do but when the situations arise this thought process simply seems to disappear. The scariest and worst aspect of the disorder (for me and i'm sure many other parents would agree) is the hyperactivity and impulsiveness. These children do not perceive danger correctly and do not realize consquences for their actions. I have watched my son dart into the street several times even tho in the house he can tell you all the reasons not to do so. They also can get very aggressive. I've come to the point that i'm ready to try medications, after 2 long years of trying everything that i've been advised to try. Its not to make my child a zombie or so i don't have to "deal" with him anymore. Its so my child has the help he needs to make the right choices. Its about my son's safety as well as every other child around him. And, forgive me if this is selfish, i don't want to bury my son.
 friends2b
Joined: 9/16/2009
Msg: 806
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:19:55 PM
Why is it that every time some talks about spanking or discipline there is mostly some woman that comes up with some sorry ass story about some kid getting his head kicked in. There is a deferent between spanking your kind and beating the shit out of them. By the way your story as you told it you post doesn’t make any sense at all. Even if it was a brutal beating like you said that the father belongs in Jail why that kid not thrust you the Mother and have no affection for you the Mother whom did not hit him and needs to go to therapy probably for the rest of his life…………That sound like BS to me. Sorry but it does or you are living a whole lot of the story out.
 Sarahbecca814
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 807
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:43:06 PM
Well 1st of all i don't feel the need to go into the whole story cuz i'm sure alot of people don't care to hear it. I only made my statement as some people can take spanking a child too far and to suggest "beating a disorder out of a child" could get out of hand. I am not against spanking or disciplining my child. I know there is a difference, but some people will not see that difference so to suggest it as a solution to millions of people, there is a chance someone could take it to dangerous levels. Btw, child services ruled the case as abuse and charges have been brought against his father. I also got a PFA for my child against his father cuz the justice system is taking its sweet old time on it. If it was BS a judge would not have signed the PFA. Besides that, with the child services ruling as they did, he will never be able to be around the child even after the PFA lapses or after he gets any due punishment. I never said my son was going to be in therapy the rest of his life. I said that a child that possibly endures more than he did possibly could. Also to clarify, my son did not trust or show affection towards anyone. Of course this hit me the hardest, as i am his mother. He became totally withdrawn cuz he was only 4 yrs old and thats where his mind had to go to deal with the experience and the pain he endured. A withdrawn child will not be affectionate. The therapy he has done so far has brought him well out of his shell but he still has more to go. But no i don't think it will be for the rest of his life. Still it has been alot for him to deal with at his age and something that should not have happened to him.
 Sarahbecca814
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 808
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:47:37 PM
And yes i do get rather defensive on this topic cuz when i came home from work that evening my son's father said he had "whooped his ass" , so i guess when i hear those words or anything like it my mind goes back to my son covered in bruises. I hope this would be an appalling sight for any parent. I was only trying to share my experience to possibly prevent this from happening to other children.
 MePlusTwo
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 809
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/14/2009 9:25:14 PM
ADHD/ADD are real. They are not a cop out. Proper diagnosis is complex and many children are misdiagnosed and/or not diagnosed when they should be.

Drugs are not a "cure", nor should they ever be a stand alone treatment. They are no more than a support mechanism so that the REAL TREATMENT - ie. teaching them to function in a way that will make their life more manageable - can take place.

The drugs should be treated no differently than if you were taking a cold/flu pill to clear your symptoms so you can function or an allergy pill that does the same.

Properly medicated children with ADHD/ADD will never be, nor should ever be "zombies". If they are, then they are not appropriately medicated.

Problem is, doctors, parents, teachers, health care providers and the general public are so ill-informed and uneducated when it comes to the disorder that it is rarely properly treated and/or managed; particularly in childhood.

And this thread is just a perfect example of that. Reading about how ADHD/ADD can just be "spanked out" of a child makes me sick to my stomach. That level of ignorance is the biggest single problem in appropriately treating and managing the disorder.


/rant
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 810
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/15/2009 4:06:40 AM
"Freetime2bme, even if this is a joke it is not at all funny" "You disgust me."
"cuz of what some STUPID idiot like you "

With that kind of an out look no wounder your son now suffers from PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). May be you can spank that out of him too. If you don't see the hummor this time get your self back into the therapy.
 friends2b
Joined: 9/16/2009
Msg: 811
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/15/2009 5:52:14 AM
Sarahbecca814, reading your post it sounded to me that you were implying that your son would end up in therapy for life just because of one incident that happen and I don’t believe that kids are that fragile usually there are other reasons that have gone on before the child gets to that point, but that was just assumption on my part and I apologize for it. . I understand how we can all jump at certain words that we hear or read because we associate them with images of experiences we have just as I get very frustrated when I hear people equating spanking and discipline to a beating which is really an assault on a child only not called that because it is a parent that commits it. To spank a child is proper and to discipline a child is necessary for the child to learn of cause it has to be done correctly and for the right reason but once you cross the line then it is not a spanking any no longer should it be discussed as all and the some that’s why it becomes so hard to have discussions over issues because what a word means to one person it doesn’t mean the something to another and that’s when arguments start with no end. Good luck with your kid and I’m glad to hear that the father is getting what he deserves.
 Sarahbecca814
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 812
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/15/2009 12:46:43 PM
thank you friends2b for your apology and best wishes, i truly appreciate it. i did write my posts in the manner i did cuz i was very upset at the time, so i can understand a misunderstanding. again, to anyone else reading this, i was not sharing my story to get sympathy from people i do not know. that is not my intention or what i need. i was only sharing cuz of a mindless suggestion that you can beat a disorder out of a child which attempting to do such a thing could lead to only more problems for your child. i hope that no one would take this suggestion seriously or literally but somewhere there may be someone that does and i feel for those children and feel an obligation to share my son's experience to potentially prevent it from happening to another child.
 Sarahbecca814
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 813
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/15/2009 12:54:07 PM
my outlook has nothing to do with my son's trauma disorder. post traumatic stress disorder is a result to having a life threatening experience, or anything that the person perceives as a life threatening experience. i once upon a time used to laugh about phrases like that or maybe even used them myself (ex:"i'm gonna strangle this child). of course in no way do i think that everyone who says things like this will then act upon it but when you are giving advice or suggestions to millions of people there is a chance someone will take it literally or try it. that is why i posted my response. and thats all i will say. and i will not apologize for not seeing humor in something that is now a big disturbance for ME cuz of MY experiences.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 814
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/15/2009 1:01:05 PM
"i once upon a time used to laugh "

From reading your post, I really find it hard to believe you ever were able to to that. I'm not a real doctor, but like I said before I do play one at the beer barn when I try and impress the women folk and I tell every one to laugh for good health. Give it a try.
 Sarahbecca814
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 815
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/15/2009 7:24:19 PM
please if you are gonna quote me please quote the whole part of what i said. I said i used to laugh at using such phrases because before my son got seriously hurt by someone basically acting out what alot of people say lightly or jokingly, i was able to take things like that in a different perspective. our perspectives and associations change with our life experiences.
 dolphinlvr36
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 816
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/15/2009 8:54:03 PM
[They can focus very well when playing games but not when they are studding. They can behave very well when they know that they would get spanked if they don’t behave. Their memory is fantastic when it comes down to girls phone numbers, what was the score in the 1969 World Series while being born in 90’s. They can remember the names of every NFL player but not the ABC’s. It seems a little convenient that a child’s disease some how is a problem when they walk into a school. Then we have our school teachers that for some reason can’t seem to teach our kids to read or write but yet they have a medical degree for a disease that their is no real test for except for some questions and observation of behavior. If we were not talking about kids and ADHD & ADD what would anyone think of teachers and schools? And let me say I respect teachers and the hard work they do but we have a big problem in this country today with incompetence in our schools. I really do feel that most of the kids have a diseases called Lack of discipline compile with boredom that is contracted by spending to much time in building infected with incompetence. ]


i guess you didn't notice what i talked about in my post above. ADHD kids can most certainly focus in certain situations and not others, just like people with depression can be unhappy in some situations, and not others.

In terms of the whole school thing? Wow...such strong words. Do you have children in school? If so, do you take part in their education, not just rely on their teacher's to teach them without parental support? It's a team effort between the student, teacher, and family. We have too much to teach in one day to also "so called" diagnose kids, not to mention try to teach them in a world with which we have to compete with.
 staceyssc
Joined: 10/18/2009
Msg: 817
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/22/2009 7:42:31 PM
I have 2 kids with ADHD and 1 with ADD. They are not on meds and after a lot of study I think most kids dont need meds. It is very real though. There are all different degrees as well. Some can cope with simple exercises, some need a special diet or natural remedies, but don't let uninformed idiots tell you no kid needs meds for this. I have an adopted brother who is 6 yrs old. His ADHD is so bad that at 2 the drs thought he was autistic. My stepmother spent 4 years and probably a fortune trying diets, holistic drs, naturopaths, and studying every natural cure known to man. Her and my father are wonderful parents and I know that discipline is not the issue - no problems with the 5 yr old they adopted either. When she finally gave in (he was not even capable of attending school) and put him on concerta, he was fine. The only person who didn't do well with the meds was my stepmother. She had been convinced that this was a copout and that she was drugging her child. The people who say ADHD doesn't exist made her feel like a failure. The quality of life improved for him as well as everyone around him and he is able to learn. These are not "zombie pills". They are not meant to sedate the child, but to help them focus. If it turns your kid into a zombie, they are on the wrong med for them or the dosage is not correct.
 staceyssc
Joined: 10/18/2009
Msg: 818
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/22/2009 7:51:26 PM
I just wanted to add that untreated ADHD is very dagerous. These kids can get violent, run into traffic, jump into water that;s to deep, etc, etc, etc. For teens it is worse - look up statisitics on ADHD and car accidents, suicide, etc, etc. Nobody should try to make parents or educators feel guilty for trying to get kids help when it is needed. Yes the medication is abused - what medication isn't? Parents should try other alternatives first, but in the end do what is best for the child - not what a bunch of uninformed people who have never dealt with this think is best.
 licoricecat_1
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 819
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:51:29 PM
I am RN, BSN and know all about bipolar and ADHD. My son was dx with ADHD at 3 yrs old. He definitely had this. However, Dr's do overdiagnose people with labels and the pharmaceutical companies make more and more drugs to fit the label. The Dr's oftentimes have stock in the drug companies. The video, "Making a Killing" has documented stories about this and the Billions$ that is being made daily and we the American people are the ginny pigs and so are our children. Most of these conditions are real. Most of them are genetic. Most of them could be helped immensely through diet. Vegan Diet. Get rid of the meat (filled with hormones and garbage) pesticides (so eat organic and raw), red dyes, food coloring, processed foods, white sugar and white flour, etc. Eat instead vegetables and fruits, nuts (if not allergic) oatmeal, grains, sprouts, seeds, etc. Get child tested for allergies first to rule out any. Read Living Foods Lifestyle book by Brenda Cobb and Hallejuah Diet by George Malkmus and you will understand more what I am talking about. American Food is deficient in nutrition and kills your cells causing all sorts of health problems and the drugs we take continues to weaken our cells .
 licoricecat_1
Joined: 11/23/2008
Msg: 820
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:57:53 PM
Want to add to not take child off med's, but do change their eating habits to nutritious eating and then maybe you will not need to give them med's or may be able to lessen them. Ask Dr. first. Get them on healthy eating and then see the change. Then ask Dr. about decreasing med's or maybe totally not need it anymore. Kids with ADHD are very impulsive and do not think of the consequences of their behaviors. Later on they could be violent, get into trouble of all sorts. They also have difficult time focusing.
 Janewantstarzan
Joined: 8/3/2009
Msg: 821
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/22/2009 10:00:52 PM

Why is it that every time some talks about spanking or discipline there is mostly some woman that comes up with some sorry ass story about some kid getting his head kicked in.
It is never a 'sorry ass story' when someone brings to light abuse of a child! When even one child is abused that is one to many! You could be a little more tasteful in your wording!
 Lady Seinu
Joined: 10/7/2009
Msg: 822
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 10/23/2009 4:43:31 PM
From my own personal experience, disorders are a cop out for me (and I will explain why), although they may not be for others. Every situation is different... however, I don't believe we should have our children on medication unless every other option has failed. Kids go through a lot of stages, teenagers have a lot of issues due to hormonal changes. It's perfectly natural for children and teenagers to be distracted, stressed, depressed... all of the above.

At any rate, I was once that kid on ritalin, the kid with ADD... I was also the teenager with "borderline-personality-disorder" which is slightly more extreme than bi-polar disorder. I was on Lexapro, Adderall, and Depakote as a teenager... I can openly admit, I was a rotten teenager. I acted out, got into trouble, I was severly despressed, suicidal... all that fun crap. Any way, I was on ALL these medications and still acting up (this all happened when I was 14-17)... if anything, I probably got worse, my doctors kept upping the dose, swithing things around. I was even put in a Behavorial Center for a week. Anyway, when I was just barely 17, my mom finally threw in the towl... she was tired of spending the money on medications that did nothing and was at the end of her rope with me. She cut me off from the meds and after about six months started seeing improvements with me.

In the end, I believe the medicine (especially the Depakote... I have not met one person yet who has taken that medication and has told me it did any good for them), did more harm than good. I can't even remember half of the stuff I did in those years that I was on that medication and it's been less than five years since! It also made me eat like a pig... and I gained about sixty pounds because of it. I think, especially in my scenario, the more the doctors diagnosed, the more I had convinced myself that something was wrong with me! It gave me the EXCUSE to act out. And my mom finally said enough's enough, cut me off, and left me alone because she didn't know what else to do with me at that point, that was when I "sobered up" so to speak and began maturing a little. I put my depression to somewhat of an end with a mind-over-matter sort of attitude. Don't get me wrong, I still get VERY depressed every once in a while but I can pull myself through it without the help of medication and I'm certainly not suicidal anymore and I don't speak with a doctor either (although there's nothing wrong with seeing a social worker, that's just my personal choice).

But of course, every person is different, every case is different. To me, disorders ARE a cop-out. They don't exhist with me. I've learned to over-come them with my own tactics, by constant optimism. I have a very strong will-power that you can't find in a lot of individuals. But anyway, I don't think I would ever want my daughter on medications unless it was a last resort and nothing else worked.
 gentleplus
Joined: 9/8/2008
Msg: 823
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/19/2009 8:42:49 PM
Daily doses of the nutritional suppliment GABA is a wonderful and very effective alternative to meds for children and adults
 MePlusTwo
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 824
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/19/2009 9:07:05 PM
"Disorders" are NOT a cop out. They are real. They are not "excuses" for dysfunctional behaviour and relating, but they are a powerful explanation.

The biggest single problem is this. You cannot 'cure' ADHD, nor can you cure many other disorders of this nature. All you can do is learn to live the most functional and 'best' life you can by finding ways to manage them. And the way you do that is NOT by taking a pill, any pill.

The public's and indeed many in the medical field give the impression and operate on the assumption that the 'frontline' in treating ADHD is pharmaceutically. And this creates a huge problem. People then think that if they give their child a pill that that is it. All will be well. And of course, nothing could be farther from the truth.

The analogy is this. It is like the common cold. There is no cure. There is only medications that can alleviate the symptoms, to allow you to function a bit better. But you need to rest. You need to sleep a lot. You need to drink lots of water and maintain a healthy diet. And in time cold will get better and eventually be gone.

ADHD is no different. Now, in a large number of people, (estimates are around 40%), ADHD never in fact is "gone". They carry the disorder into adulthood and for the rest of their lives.

But the medication is not the cure. It is no different to the cold and flu pill. Appropriately prescribed and managed (and it takes some time to find the right prescription for each individual), it alleviates some of the symptoms. It provides a support mechanism to make functioning 'normally' (or at least in a much more efficient and effective way) and nothing more.

But you have to do the work of learning how to manage the behaviours. You have to have systems and routines in place that are appropriate to the way ADHD affects cognitive function.

Any doctor that just declares it's ADHD, prescribes a pill and sends you on your way, thinking the issue is solved should be struck off. That is negligent treatment, plain and simple.

And of course, you then are left with a situation where people think that ADHD is a "cop out" or that we are just trying to drug our children into submission. And who can blame them? That's definitely how it seems and in fact that's often how it is (ie. parents left to drug up their kids and that's it).

It infuriates me (can ya tell??!! )

Until the medical and health professionals pull their heads out of their asses on this one, we are not going to get anywhere. The primary point of 'treatment' for ADHD after diagnosis should not be a psychiatrist/Dr who just prescribes pills until they get a pill and dose that don't cause adverse side affects and knocks the child out enough to satisfy parents and schools who are too lazy and/or too uneducated and/or overwhelmed to deal with the modifications an ADHD child might need.

The primary treatment should be psychological - developmental, educational, social; both parent and child need to be taught and supported in finding the pathways to allow the child to flourish and live a happy full life.

Those pathways are not anything like the 'normal' routine ones. Because it has been scientifically proven the ADHD brain is not anything like a 'normal' brain. And depending on how long the child was undiagnosed and how entrenched their coping mechanisms and dysfunctional/destructive ways of functioning are, it can be a very long, frustrating and incredibly hard road to turn that around.

And hey, we're all about the quick fix aren't we? Who wants to hear about a long-term committed path of really hard work when they can just shove a pill in a kid's mouth?

But, with the right support, education and management, a child with ADHD (and indeed an adult with ADHD) becomes pretty much indistinguishable in terms of 'normality' from someone who doesn't have the disorder.

The 'pills' are great, but they are far more restricted in their scope and role in managing ADHD than what most people realise or are led to believe.

/end rant
/end soapbox!!
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 825
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ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/20/2009 9:26:19 AM

Ok one thing I never understood since I have a few nephews that supposedly have ADHD and/or ADD. If kids have a hard time focusing why is it that the only time they have the focus issue in is when they are doing something they don’t like to do? They can focus very well when playing games but not when they are studding. They can behave very well when they know that they would get spanked if they don’t behave. Their memory is fantastic when it comes down to girls phone numbers, what was the score in the 1969 World Series while being born in 90’s. They can remember the names of every NFL player but not the ABC’s.

Do some reading on this disorder and you will get it, doesn't make it easier to live with at times but it is what it is. Just like other people, people are interested in what they like to do but with my daughter, she loves history so if she is having a particularly bad day, even though she would normally be engaged she cannot manage it.
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