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Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?      Home login  
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 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 76
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out? Page 4 of 34    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34)
Oh, clownfish, how petty you've gotten in your dotage! Your posting really crosses the line. It's underhanded and mean. But I hate to disappoint you as I have had a date. Earlier this month, as a matter of fact. That's all I'm going to tell you.

And, Jessika, just because you start a thread doesn't mean you own it. Figure it out. If you wanted a care-bear type thread, don't name it "ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?" Gee, who could have thunk it would arise in controversy?

Let me restate what I has posted on this thread. Maybe you guys will view it as a personal attack again. One can only wonder. Whatever, it will be my cross to bear!

ADD and ADHD are both real and not real. Like all psychological syndromes, these refer to a set of associated maladaptive behaviors found in certain groups of people exposed to the same environment. They are not real diseases in that there is no common pathogen/cause discovered for these syndromes. As the origin of these syndromes is still unknown, they are called "idiopathic". However, it is known that these syndromes are associated with an imbalance of neurotransmitters in the brain, mainly serotonin and norepineprhine.

Treatment of ADD and ADHD is complicated by the fact that the symptoms manifested are entirely behavioral. Therefore, treating the chemical imbalance in the brain is only part of the answer. Behavioral therapy is also needed to train the victim in how to cope with the stimuli that incite hyperactivity. Regulation of external stimuli and diet are necessary parts of the treatment process.

The increase in detection of these syndromes has led to the formation of a cottage industry of fraudulent health practitioners selling cures for these syndromes to the unwary. These panaceas range from special diets to untested "natural" drugs. If you feel that these treatments are a bogus way to make a buck or that parents/teachers just want to control unruly kids, read http://www.addconsults.com/articles/full.php3?id=1030

There we go. What I said in a nutshell. If you disagree, PLEASE quote me, post an intelligent observation and, if available, back up your opinion with references. If we stick to the issue, we can avoid interpersonal conflict.

No harm done and no grudges borne, at least on my side. I am passionate about this issue because my kids are involved. If you don't like me, it's not because of ADD or ADHD.

Thanks, All.
 jessika2908
Joined: 6/17/2005
Msg: 77
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 5:46:35 PM
So what medical book did you google that time?
I didn't want a CARE Bear thread thread as you put it, I wanted somewhere where people could talk about this and what they have discovered about add/adhd and there thoughts about it. I never said I owned it. Matter of fact I hadn't posted in some time. Just let it take a life of it's own, and it did.
What I didn't want was a lot of fighting and crap going on like a lot of the other threads have. But with your negative attitude you have turned it in to that.
I think that add/adhd is real. I won't say it isn't but I think that there is underlying things to it too, and other things mirror it.
 skisnobound
Joined: 11/21/2005
Msg: 78
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 6:05:38 PM
Over50...
Do you have ADD or ADHD? Do you have a child with ADD or ADHD? My guess is no. It's really easy to sit there and quote medical books when you don't have to live with it day in and day out. Unless you have personally delt with these disorders, you don't really "know" what they really are. It's easy to quote books, but they are not always correct.
ADD and ADHD are VERY real. I live with it each and every day. Some of these others LIVE with it each and every day, their children may have it, or they themselves have it.
Next your going to be telling me that PTSD isn't real either.

To everyone else who deals with it, keep strong! You are doing the best of your abilities, and don't ever let anyone make you doubt yourself!
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 79
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 6:20:52 PM
I am hoping that there are some intelligent people who are tracking this thread. Let's hear from you. People who can read with comprehension, that is.

I guess I should be flattered. Everything I post is original. If the two jerks who just posted think it's plagiarized, they can copy and paste the text into google with their fat little fingers, hit search and find out if it is. Real easy, but you have to have a brain to think of it. Sorry they don't qualify. Let me give you some incentive, girls, if it is plagiarized, I'm in real trouble. Contact the publisher and they'll sue my @55 off. Of course, you'll find it isn't plagiarized. i would wait for an apology but that takes too much class.

mpmommy. Read what I wrote. I have two sons with ADHD so get off your high horse. If you read well, you will notice that I said that the condition is real but it's not a "real" disease. It's a psychological syndrome. Do you own a dictionary? Geez!

Yes, there are people on POF who can think effectively and read and write. If you can't, it's not my fault. Post intelligent comments or leave us humans alone.

There, I've said my "peace".
 jessika2908
Joined: 6/17/2005
Msg: 80
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 6:42:09 PM
over5o there is no need to be so rude!!!! Just quit while you are a head please. Just stop it. This is going no where!!! You like to quote books while others want to talk about real life problems with there kids and there situations. Just please stop it. You are not making anyone feel better by assumeing they are idiots. Let it be you have quoted your books over and over again we get it.
 skisnobound
Joined: 11/21/2005
Msg: 81
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:05:36 PM
jessika..

I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread, it helps others to know that they aren't the only one's out there dealing with this. Now as parents we have found a group where we can discuss this, without feeling "inferior". We are all here with something in common. A child with ADHD or ADD..

Overit..
I am not willing to stoop to your level and argue over this. Yes you do have some valid points, but you are expressing them in the wrong ways. Instead of being scientific about it, approach it as a human put it "laymans" terms. Many of us are not as "well-read" as you are. And many of us are more "well-read" then you are willing to believe. I am truely sorry but I am going to believe what the NIMH puts out from their studies, and my doctor over you. Someone who says that they are a scientist, but yet has to say what they study for sciene.
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 82
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:13:32 PM
Great link. The ending reminded me of one of the battles I had with my mother-in-law (ex, thank god!). She kept on yelling at me for letting my kids drink caffeinated drinks near bedtime. It was a sure sign they were getting tired and needed something to calm their brains down. The MIL could never grasp that caffeine, in the case of the ADHD-afflicted, can help calm them down.

Another great thing about the article is that it stresses that states of mind are variable in all of us. It's like they slide back and forth along a Gaussian curve and we are all depressed or have ADHD or are insomniac, etc, at differing points in our lives. We only diagnose people with psychological syndromes if they spend most of their time in those regions.

It's a fascinating subject. Of all the organs, we know the least about the brain. Maybe someday we'll lick this thing.

Thanks.
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 83
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:28:46 PM
mpmommy

I'm sorry if I overreacted but NOBODY accuses me of plagiarism and gets a smile. I make no apologies for my style of writing because that's what I do when I convey information. Also, you'll find that I am not at all disagreeing with your doctor or NIMH. If you feel I am, post an NIMH study you feel I've contradicted so we can look at it together.

I know for a fact that most of the people reading this thread are well read and educated. How? If you look at the view count, you'll see that a lot more people than the three I've had trouble with are reading this thread. They haven't sent me any nasty messages so I assume they understand what I've written even though they haven't posted. They may disagree with it but they don't feel that such disagreement warrants personal attacks.

Don't get fixated on my writing that ADHD is not a "real disease". What I mean by that is that there is no identified cause so it can't be pigeonholed into classical disease profiles likea cold, the flu, AIDS, sprue, etc. It is a very real condition but, in the sense that we cannot identify a cause, it's not classically a disease. You mentioned PTSD earlier which also has no single identified cause YET. As such, it can be regarded as a condition but not a real disease. Why? Because science has a huge gap in its knowledge of and diagnosis of malfunctions of the brain.

If you want to discuss this type of thing in a more informal fashion, contact me privately. When I'm dealing with an individual I can let my hair down and write less formally because I feel I won't be attacked for sloppy writing. (That's the kind of forum I'm used to and it's going to be difficult to break the habit, I'm afraid.)

Anyway, sorry if I caused you any travail. I don't mean to make anyone feel inferior. Why would my style of writing make you feel like that anyway? It's only words.
 skisnobound
Joined: 11/21/2005
Msg: 84
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:42:46 PM
Overit..

First, I didn't accuse you of plagerism. I can understand why this would make one upset. But please re-read your posts. They read as if they come straight out of a medical book. Impersonal, and unfeeling.

I have not become "fixated" on your writing that "ADHD is not a "real disease"". In fact I think I said that you have had very valid points, and agreed with you.

Sometimes a persons style of writing reflects them as a person. We already know by your own admission that you are a scientist. While many of us are not. Sometimes one's profession "leaks" out when least expected, here is an example: I am a soldier, now if I started to speak as I do at work. No one would understand me but those who are soldiers as well. Many times at work I can complete the majority of a conversation in acroymns. I may not do it intentionally, and many times I will speak as a soldier at home. I know when I do this by the confused look on my families face, or my daughter will say "Mommy your talking Army again."
Because of that some may feel inferior, it may not be your intention, but it could happen. Yes they are only words, but sometimes words cut deeper than one anticipated.
 skisnobound
Joined: 11/21/2005
Msg: 85
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:46:27 PM
Jessika,

I am truely sorry for hijacking your topic....i will no longer do this...please accept my apoligies.
 jessika2908
Joined: 6/17/2005
Msg: 86
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:53:11 PM
You are fine. No problem here. I just want everyone to get along.
Try to be more uplifting and supportive.
 skisnobound
Joined: 11/21/2005
Msg: 87
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 8:11:49 PM
I will...
Everyone that has a child with ADD or ADHD has my utmost respect...
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 88
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 11:05:16 PM
mpmommy:

Why don't the braniacs ever post?

Read what you wrote:

It's really easy to sit there and quote medical books when you don't have to live with it day in and day out.

What is a word for quoting without attribution? It starts with a "p". So, you did accuse me of plagiarism. Military you might be but you don't know law. And I have two kids with ADHD so it's obvious you're not in Intelligence.


But please re-read your posts. They read as if they come straight out of a medical book. Impersonal, and unfeeling.

I should have pointed this out more forcefully before as Jessika seems to believe that she should have sole discretion on how this thread should have evolved. Read the title she gave this thread. It's "ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?". To me, that means that the topic is whether or not ADD and ADHD really exist or are just a made up ploy to medicate unruly kids. Hence, it's a medical discussion. Am I right or am I missing something? If the lot of you want to give each other hugs and slaps on the tush, maybe "Aren't parents of ADD and ADHD kids wonderful?" would have been a more appropriate title. As it is, I'm holding up my responsibilities by defending the scientific position. I'm NOT going to sit idly by while some Luddite tells everyone that a diet will fix this problem and I'm not going to let my posts be abused by obnoxious, insolent and illiterate people. Do I make myself clear?

I've sat in cabs, listening to drivers use obscure language. Do I feel inferior? No.
I've listened to the arcane words of skateboarders. Do I feel inferior? No.
I have many MD friends. Do I feel inferior when they lapse into jargon? No.
The only reason to feel you're inferior is if you are inferior. Don't open any technical books, lady, they'll break your heart.

And, what's this BS apologizing to Jessika for "hijaking her thread". You're just feeding her illusion that she's in control of this thing or that she's responsible for it. Frankly, if she truly felt responsible for it, she would apologize to everyone for giving it a title that would unavoidably lead to a technical/medical discussion. One that she didn't want but is going to get anyway. Otherwise, how would you settle the issue of whether or not ADHD exists?

I've had it with the touchy-feely crowd. If you can't address the issue broached by the title of this thread, you should bug out and go hug each other in a different thread. That includes you, Jessie.
 Guitarmanou812
Joined: 11/7/2005
Msg: 89
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 11:57:43 PM
Wow, OverIt50, you are such a butthead!

I bet you were beaten up alot when you were a school kid. Not many friends. Thick glasses. A nerd.
So you hid yourself in books, and became an overbearing, boorish, know-it-all.

Bet that sums you up.
 jessika2908
Joined: 6/17/2005
Msg: 90
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/29/2005 3:59:27 AM
Overit why don't you quit trying to be so controlling and rude. Geeesh!!! I just simple said what I had in mind when I wrote this. But you have hijacked it to know end. I think maybe you should re-read the rules!! If you treat other people like this makes me wonder why you are divorced, and only had a date earlier this month.
People really don't want to hear your garbage and your scientific BS. They want to hear real stories on how to deal with this stuff. And real life experiences. I have tried to be nice over and over. But all you want to do it argue and get your little digs in. I am sure you are a sad lonely man if you have to make others feel like crap. That is really sad, and I feel bad for you.
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 91
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/29/2005 6:58:22 AM
Hi, Paradisequeen.

Thanks for your kind message. I needed it. You are right. Given the title of the thread, I tried to inject a scientific defense regarding the true existence of ADHD, ADD, Asberger's, etc. I know from the response that at least five participants were not looking for that approach. So, here's the non-clinical side of my experience, greatly abridged.

My story is that I have two sons who are ADHD and I mean bad ADHD. When my then-wife and I were first told by a teacher that she thought our elder son had ADD, I went into complete and utter denial. I took him to doctors and, lo and behold, these "idiots" sided with the teacher! Soon, there was no denying it. My kid had this ADD thing. That was the begining of a long and painful education of what these syndromes are. The more I found out about them, the more I saw the condition in my kid. My son put a great deal of strain in the household but we were able to get by. Then we had his little brother. Everyone told us that lightning doesn't strike twice. Not so. This kid was a lot more loving and personable than his older brother but he was even more hyper. At that point, we lived in the boonies in NC and decided we had better move to an area where there was more support for these kids.

When we moved up to our present location, we took our elder son to a GP who was the area expert on ADD. (This guy is a marvelous doctor, has five kids and one of them is ADHD. He showed us a protrait and asked if we could tell which one. It's drop-dead obvious!) He sized up my son as a very severe case then looked at our younger son (then 2) who was trying to dismantle a bench and told us not to be surprised if he was much worse. And so it turned out.

The strain of one of these kids on a marriage is bad enough. Two sent my marriage into a complete tailspin. My then-wife, who already had a problem with alcohol, completely lost it. She inherited some money and shortly afterwards greeted me with the news that she had retained a divorce lawyer when I came home one day. I did my best to keep the family together because I saw a train wreck coming but I failed. I moved out to an apartment close to the kids so I could monitor the situation and, as expected, the ex started drinking again. The elder one was eighteen but I had to rescue my younger one in January. He had also gotten himself in a lot of trouble at school (sent one teacher to the emergency room and poked another in the eye with a ruler). I had to place him in a partial hospitalization program. By hook and by crook, I got him well enough to graduate with his fifth grade class with weeks to spare!

Now, he's in sixth (obviously) and relapsing. He has the highest level of non-residential care available right now and it's basically just keeping him home. I've warned him time and time again that he will have to be institutionalized if he gets any worse but he just can't help himself. (A lot is his own stubborness but there's a fair bit he doesn't have the tools to control yet.) So, on we go.

Folks, I do know what I'm talking about. I'm a scientist and have posted references to establish that this thing is real. It's real with a vengeance! It wrecks families and lives. Special diets and fanny-slaps only go so far. If you have a kid with this stuff, get some real good help and get it quick. It will help your kid and you. If anyone wants to contact me personally, they are welcome. I can tell you the mistakes I made along the way then you can decide the best path for yourself. I'm not a treatment specialist but I've faced and have educated myself on just about every option out there. Don't fall for hucksters and don't trust any therapist that's overly-supportive. You and your kids and your spouse/supporters need real answers and effective options and you need them in a timely fashion. The path is a long one and a successful approach must include not only therapy for your kids but help for you as well.
 pennybrite
Joined: 8/17/2005
Msg: 92
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/29/2005 2:10:19 PM
I know personally ADD and ADHD are a real thing. My daughter was diagnosed last year. She is 7 years old now, but had to repeat kindergarden because she couldn't concentrate at school. Her focus was on everyone else. She couldn't look at you in the eye when you were talking to her. We couldn't read to her or watch a movie through, she wouldn't stay still. We now have her on adderall, when she takes it, she is calm, loving and like a different kid. It doesn't mean she is zombied out, she rides her bike, scooter, plays teacher, plays monopoly and now enjoys books. I know she will eventually outgrow this and not need the meds, it's all about control, but in the mean time, she is up to grade level and doing great!
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 93
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/29/2005 3:30:31 PM
Paradisequeen,

Yes, I've been and am continuing personal counseling. Otherwise, I'd be in a rubber room by now. Both of my kids are heavy ADHD and it's taken a lot out of me and, obviously, a lot out of the ex. I've been able to help my kids with the help of many, many people and, specifically, with the help of people who have taught me about myself and how to deal with myself.

My frustration in my earlier postings have not been as a result of my frustrations with my situation, though. Please read through them carefully. I was trying to warn people away from the panacea/self-satisfaction pathways. Those lead to delusional beliefs that the condition had disappeared while it festers and, eventually, the poorhouse. My frustration was more with people who responded who had obviously not read my posts carefully or not understood them. Then when I tried to correct their misunderstanding they got personal. (Do you get any dates? Gee, just one?)

I am not a stranger to discussion groups (mostly on usenet) and I know I have some bad habits, developed through my years as a teacher/instructor. I have a really bad tendency to reply to everyone, even the stupid, ignorant or abusive and I get drawn into really idiotic "so is your old man" exchanges. I will try not to do it again. I would like to be a resource to the readers of these threads and the squabbling will only drive readers away.

Thanks and be well.
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 94
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/29/2005 4:30:45 PM
Angelic,

Yes, you are right. The problem with ADD, ADHD, even things like depression is that they are psychological syndromes and their diagnosis is strictly clinical. There is no lab test for any of these syndromes. Therefore, there is a lot of room for error and misdiagnosis. That is why you need to have the suspected patient evaluated by a psychiatrist, not just a GP or psychologist. Of course, the latter are pretty good at starting you on the path but, for my money, treatment must be done by a psychiatrist. Don't let a non-psychiatrist determine the medication****ail for the patient.

All in all, the treatment for ADD et al is so invasive and intrusive that I really doubt that people who don't have it will stick it out for long. Of course, those who do have it have little choice other than failure.
 skisnobound
Joined: 11/21/2005
Msg: 95
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/29/2005 6:43:41 PM
Wow some of the challenges all of you face! It is amazing, how you do it everyday with such a postive attitude. I give you all the utmost rrespect.

Overit...Your last posts are wonderful now. These were the type of posts that I was talking about. I will not answer to your earlier attempt to slander me, but I will agree to disagree with you. Although I must say this. Everyone is an expert in how they deal with their child and ADD or ADHD. What may work for you may not work for another and vise-versa. I am a expert on my child and you on yours.
 unicorn10123
Joined: 11/28/2005
Msg: 96
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/30/2005 12:26:29 AM
When you guys have a family member who hangs himself by his own belt because of how he feels about himself and is afraid to take medicine because people like you all who think he is copping out or what ever you all call it then you will have a right to judge people who help their kids feel better about themselves and can help prevent things like this from happening. My son is nine years old now and when he was in kindergarten he had a very serious problem with identifying with children and could not focus on anything (suspension, suspension, suspension) in school. I did help him but homework took three hours a night. For a first grader that only had to do a couple of sheets a week that was a long battle. To get ready for school was a 1 hour battle. That was just to get his cloths on forget about breakfast. After I took him to a neurologist he was treated for ADHD and Bipolar Disorder. He is nine years old now and has been taking medicine for 2 years now and has not been suspended in a year and a half. And he has just been asked to join the Riverside Spelling Bee. So no it is not a cop out. If I can prevent my son from doing what my brother did it is well worth the medication he is taking. And for those of you who have ever commented badly on parents who as you put it "cop out" I hope you never have to go through what we go through every day. And those of you who don't have kids at all and comment badly on us you have no idea what you are talking about.
 unicorn10123
Joined: 11/28/2005
Msg: 97
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/30/2005 12:30:07 AM
Sorry it is a touchy subject for me.
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 98
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/30/2005 5:07:56 AM
Angelic,

I don't think that normally someone who didn't already show the symptoms would be diagnosed with the disease but stranger things have happened. That's why I urge prospective patients be diagnosed by a psychiatrist, not a GP. As noted by many other posters, just because someone is hypercative doesn't mean they have ADHD. Behavioral therapy should be tried first and a review of the home environment can also solve some cases. Medication can calm a kid down but won't teach them how to act. It's still up to the parents and teachers to teach the kid how to act.

By invasive, I mean that the treatment for ADHD goes far beyond taking pills in the morning. I have psychologists and case workers and physical therapists coming to my home every week. They call me at all hours to set up/cancel appointments. They quiz me on what goes on at home and how I handled it. This morning I had to get the kid up extra early because he drew morning (and afternoon!) detention today.

That's what I was referring to. It's not quite living in a fishbowl but it's close. I am grateful, though, for all these home invaders because they really are helping my kid and me. These guys know what they're doing and I might even give them keys.

It's very obvious to me that you're not stupid. I've noticed that life is full of paradoxes and here's one: only stupid people have never thought they're stupid. It takes comprehension to feel stupid. Weird, huh? You'll never convince a stupid person that they're stupid (nor would you want to). But, they're people so treat them with respect and get the hell away from them ASAP. We all run into bad teachers who make us feel worthless if they don't happen to like us. I had lots of teachers who made me feel stupid, some even told me I was. That's why they never told me what my IQ was when the scores came back. They told all the other kids. I know your pain.

Be well.
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 99
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/30/2005 5:09:22 AM
Unicorn,

You rock!
 OverIt50
Joined: 10/25/2005
Msg: 100
ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/30/2005 10:41:35 AM
Angelic 1,

The official symptomology for ADHD is listed on this CDC webpage:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm
Since you're in Canada, perhaps you can find Health Canada's version but they should match.

I read on a website dealing with adult ADHD only yesterday that the current thinking is that there is no such thing as adult-onset ADD or ADHD. Either you're born with it or you don't have it. Frankly, I think it's a little too early to tell to make this pronouncement but, as the disease is strictly clinical in nature, maybe an adult can come down with it but the medical people will give it a different name just so they don't have to contradict themselves.

If you want to share, I'd be interested in your trauma theory or hypothesis or whatever. The world of psychology really has no hard and fast rules as it's still in its infancy. Remember, geologists laughed at the guy who proposed plate tectonics and now he has a Nobel hanging in his office.
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