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 ieatrocks
Joined: 11/16/2005
Msg: 52
No such thing as a cure... so CultPage 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
To the source? Absolutely, thanks for the challenge.

http://www.aa.org/default/en_pdfs/p-16_theaagroup.pdf

"A.A.’s Single Purpose
Tradition Five: Each group has but one primary
purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who
still suffers.
"There are those who predict that A.A. may well
become a new spearhead for a spiritual awakening
throughout the world. When our friends say these
things, they are both generous and sincere. But we
of A.A. must reflect that such a tribute and such a
prophecy could well prove to be a heady drink for most
of us—that is, if we really came to believe this to be the
real purpose of A.A., and if we commenced to behave
accordingly.
"Our Society, therefore, will prudently cleave to
its single purpose: the carrying of the message to
the alcoholic who still suffers. Let us resist the proud
assumption that since God has enabled us to do well
in one area we are destined to be a channel of saving
grace for everybody."
A.A. co-founder Bill W., 1955"

Note that the 12 actual steps the organization is built upon, were not readily displayed at aa.org. All throughout the promotional PDF's displayed on aa.org you can find this rhetoric however. So na.org may be more assistance and less religion based then, right? In all fairness let's have a look.

http://www.na.org/ips/an/an-IP16.htm

Wow! Same 12 steps I quoted, my first time, right from the source. If you want to attempt to disqualify a point I make stating I'm not getting it from the source... maybe you should check the source first to see whether or not it actually is in fact an exact quote I used.

So, glad to have answered your concerns about the integrity of the information I've based my opinion from; I now stand by it. Cult. There is no doubt about that.
 hobbes26
Joined: 11/4/2005
Msg: 55
No such thing as a cure... so Cult
Posted: 12/7/2005 2:44:05 PM
i think its not the programs, its the individuals

Some people can just quit without trouble. My uncle quit smoking cause he did not feel like going to the store to get cigarettes. For others its brutally hard.
Some people the support mechanism these groups provide is needed. Its the same thing with churches. There are those who are total whacko's and there are those that are just part of a community.

Personally, I am neither religious nor one who likes the idea of support groups but I think they have an important place in helping people out. I have had friends that these programs have helped out and as many that they were no help....Its a personality thing. Some folks like to be part of communities especially when they are weak while others its best to go hide away and heal.
 ieatrocks
Joined: 11/16/2005
Msg: 56
No such thing as a cure... so Cult
Posted: 12/8/2005 6:47:09 AM
NRK, I've never been to a Reverend Moon mass wedding either; should I therefore not pass judgement on that organization as being a cult?

To avoid pissing everyone off, I think I must re-state that I am in favour of groups like AA, NA and others; regardless of their program, they produce some results in some cases. This is a *world* of difference when compared to nothing at all. If they manage to save even one home from becoming broken, then they have my support. I may not personally agree with the way those results are produced, but their ability to run it, and my ability to question it are what make us a free society.

If "ieatrocks' 12 ways to smack and insult a drunk into smartening the f*** up" were likely to be as effective and widely accepted, I'd had my pamphlets printed off by next week and my first session on Saturday.
 Captain Sargasmo
Joined: 10/12/2005
Msg: 57
No such thing as a cure... so Cult
Posted: 12/8/2005 2:15:16 PM
i like the Cult...

and also the Cure...

so...i'd take 12 steps in either direction to listen to them.
 gotu
Joined: 5/23/2005
Msg: 58
No such thing as a cure... so Cult
Posted: 12/8/2005 2:26:24 PM
bad cappy - draggin threads off topic :P

Is the cult in here referring to religion... because I think the word that is used is spiritual not religious. I am spiritual and am not religious. there is a difference.
 TheDreadPirateRoberts
Joined: 11/18/2005
Msg: 60
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 12/11/2005 8:12:45 AM
A fundamental aspect of the *working* definition of a cult, to those who study them, is the deliberate use of deception to entice and ensnare new adherents. Some mainstream "religions" fit this description, but most don't. On the whole, Christianity does not (except for the couple of "offshoots" commonly recognized as such), neither do Buddhism, Judaism, Bahaism, Sikhism, etc.

Remember, the key aspect is DELIBERATE deception in order to ensnare. Since not all religions agree on fundamental points and therefore they cannot all "be right" (presuming that even one can be...) the rest are therefore "wrong" and deceiving their members. Being wrong does not make them a cult -- at issue is the deliberate, planned and choreographed use of deception to E&E. In the cults I've studied, this deception is planned, storyboarded and practiced with full awareness by the leadership that it is, in fact, a deception. Sometimes physical means (sleep-deprivation, dietary anomalies, prepared environments) are used to prepare the subject for the con, but not always.

Of course... no twelve-step program comes even close to this. If a twelve-step program did not work for *whoever*, well it sucks to be whoever. He/She'll have to find another tool to use that *will* work for them -- and I sincerely wish each of us every success with our personal battle-of-all-battles, be it alcohol, drugs or food.
 Captain Sargasmo
Joined: 10/12/2005
Msg: 69
IT'S A CULT
Posted: 3/1/2006 11:18:24 AM
how about this...

if something legal helps someone stop drinking so much they keep waking up in Trophy's bedroom duct-taped to a goat, then great! it's probably for the best.
 ~JaneSays~
Joined: 5/6/2009
Msg: 80
No such thing as a cure... so Cult
Posted: 5/24/2009 9:32:29 PM
Interesting thread and some interesting responses.

I don't think it is a cult. I doubt it meets the definition, but suppose it does. Perhaps, it could be considered a good cult because it helps people change their lives for the better. Also, there is a certain amount of wisdom in some of the things they say.
 WesternWildRose
Joined: 9/15/2008
Msg: 81
view profile
History
No such thing as a cure... so Cult
Posted: 5/25/2009 1:11:43 PM
Well apparently I don't know a lot about this.... so I referred to Wiki...an where I thought the 12 Step concept was a tool to get your life in order and take steps to over-coming addiction by acknowledging your addiction in a group setting with others...etc...tools...step by step ways to get to recovery and cease your addiction.....

now I see where the original 12 Steps of AA as per Wiki involved handing over your confesssion....an accepting God to take over your life...and help you thru this addiction and recovery.

Steps 5,6 and 7 I believe referred to God so why it is not a cult in my eyes..it does have some religious belief... Christianity...and thus could be seen as Christian indoctrine.
 Wilf Huckitt
Joined: 3/29/2008
Msg: 82
view profile
History
No such thing as a cure... so Cult
Posted: 5/25/2009 1:17:31 PM
Been through a cpl. progams and several meetings but didnt get much out of it in the long run. The fact that you have to believe in a higher power alone is enough to make me think its more of a cult than anything.


http://rational.org/index.php

This was how I finaly made the right choice and quit! No higher power or meetings in 3 yrs.

I dont agree with the bashing of different ideas, nor do I agree with being judged by either side!


So for me the cure was the realization that I was a dumass that chose the wrong life style!
 Wilf Huckitt
Joined: 3/29/2008
Msg: 85
view profile
History
IT'S A Recovery Program
Posted: 5/28/2009 1:00:34 AM
Here Here ms fartsalot!!

All though I have not read his book, I have viewed his site and the AVRT worked quite well for me!

To finaly realize I was the one that had to decide to make the right choice! None of this one day at a time bs! No higher power to keep me on track, or forgive me if I sin!


I personaly know more "Dry Drunks" as we are called (if we quit outside of the boundry's of the 12 step program)than I know of people that have quit in it!

The "Treatment Industry" is booming these days and will as long as people keep lining their pockets off the "so called sick!"
 Wilf Huckitt
Joined: 3/29/2008
Msg: 91
view profile
History
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 9/27/2009 8:18:35 AM
""~JaneSays~ on 9/8/2009 718 PM
Is the 12 step program the only route for a person who is addicted to drugs or alcohol? I am sincerely asking. It seems like group therapy to me and I think some people would prefer private therapy.""

As far as I know the 12 steps are the only recognized program in the "Treatment Industry"!



For me This is the one that worked!


http://rational.org/index.php
 Moanie
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 93
Treatment Really Means Sanitarium!!
Posted: 9/27/2009 1:29:25 PM
^^^^ I see why you choose that handle for yourself. It suits you perfectly

edit: don't you have to be a certain age to be on this site?
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 94
view profile
History
Treatment Really Means Sanitarium!!
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:14:19 PM

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
To me that has cult and brainwashing written all over it. The failure rate is over 90% but its not meant to help people get over their addictions anyway, its true agenda is revealed by the completely unnecessary injection of 'God' throughout it. Why not Allah or Vishnu or Zeus or the Creator or better yet, why mention a god of any kind in the first place?

There are two basic principles commonly used to brainwash someone - first you break them down, second you bring them back up. In this case you break them down by convincing them they are weak, helpless slaves to their addiction - then you bring them up by saying but there's hope! - so long as they perform lots of useless prayer and fill the collection plate.

If I truly wanted to help someone overcome something I would encourage them to externalize their problem (as opposed to putting the blame on them) and help them to foster personal strength to fight that problem. I wouldn't slap more shackles on them like the 12 steps do, I would try to liberate them. Naturally this 12 step religious indoctrination, thinly veiled as something meant to help you, does the opposite - it tells you that you are weak, powerless, and incapable of beating your addiction on your own - which is pretty much the exact opposite message you would ever give to an addict if you want them to recover. In a sense, the 12 step program tries to replace one addiction with another - if you convince someone that they need your religion and that they are powerless without it, you've got them addicted.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 96
view profile
History
Treatment Really Means Sanitarium!!
Posted: 9/27/2009 3:43:00 PM

Gee, rock on ding dong!
Gee, name calling...what a great debate tactic.
copying all that out of google for our education and edification
You're complaining about having the 12 steps listed? What a pathetic thing to whine about.
how many people do you know who have sustained long term recovery from same? i know a few. how many do you know who have recovered (long term and happily) without? hmmm...i know one but he hasn't come out of his house in a few years LOL!!!
You know "a few" people who have recovered from addiction? Congratulations - what an enormous body of subjects from which you've formed an opinion on the matter. It seems unimportant for you to bother pursuing what has worked for thousands or millions of recovered addicts because you know 'a few' people. Good for you.
a twelve step program is not a religion
You're being disingenuous. It may not be a religion on its own but it has obvious religious components. In fact, in many states it is illegal to force someone to join AA as it violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof).
oh well - you can always go back to cutting and pasting long educational excerpts from google...that'll keep everyone gagging for more...i know i sure am!
And you can go back to whining about cut/paste when you're incapable of refuting the argument itself.

I find it amusing that you defend the 12 steps yet you continue to whine about me posting them. Its not surprising, people don't like it when they're hypocrisy is revealed. If the 12-step program involved the name 'Allah' instead of 'God' I'm sure you'd be wailing in hate instead of defending the program.

There's plenty of other help programs at least as effective as the 12-step programs that don't require indoctrination into believing in God. Clearly the mention of God is unnecessary - this is one of the things that makes it more of a cult than a place to manage your addiction.

Lets look at its effectiveness
In a 1979 study, 260 individuals, either referred by the courts, other agencies, or self-referred, were treated for 210 days. Participants were assigned randomly to one of five groups: AA meetings run by experienced nonprofessionals, RBT therapy administered by a nonprofessional, RBT therapy administered by degreed professionals, Insight Therapy administered by professionals, or a control group which received no treatment.

After treatment was completed, a three month follow-up showed that AA group treatment was associated with five times more binge drinking than the control group and nine times the binge drinking of the nonprofessional RBT group. Nonprofessional RBT was deemed the superior treatment in a comparison between the two. The study concluded that coerced AA attendance did not work well.

AA had the largest dropout rate. The Insight Therapy and Professional RBT groups ranked the highest in drinking indices for the most nondrinking days over the 3 and 9 month follow up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous

I think support groups are great for overcoming addiction but I just dont see the need to inject religion into it.
 Moanie
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 98
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 9/27/2009 6:03:59 PM
mo-mo:
Wow, 29 years!! Big hand of applause to your Dad, and of course to his obviously very supportive family Very impressive
 Moanie
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 100
Treatment Really Means Support :)
Posted: 9/27/2009 8:53:28 PM
AA was also very good to someone in my family. Without it, where would he have gone? to belong and to heal? The more options in the community the better!
Several years ago I heard about this addiction model in Italy...incredible...they were thinking about trying to bring this to Canada. It would be awesome if they worked out something like this for Alcoholics as well.
They create a community, and your family comes along with you. You are provided with everything.... work, school, hospitals, treatment, home......

http://www.lorennwalker.com/blog/?p=18
(if that link doesn't go through, it is a reference to the San Patrigno facility in Italy)
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 102
view profile
History
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 9/27/2009 9:18:58 PM

your research is current at least, dingle...NOT.
More name calling I see. Is that the only thing you're good at?
And you didn't like the year? Is it because you think the 12-step program is a research study that has been replaced by recent scientific discovery? Did the number of steps change? We're talking about 12-step programs, not science. lol!
Since you think it makes a difference, here's another one for you.
AA and other 12-step approaches are typically based on the assumption that substance dependence is a spiritual and a medical disease. The available experimental studies did not demonstrate the effectiveness of AA or other 12-step approaches in reducing alcohol use and achieving abstinence compared with other treatments.
The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2009 Issue 3, Copyright © 2009 The Cochrane Collaboration
This was preceded by their 2006 study involving 8 trials and 3417 people which found that...
No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF (twelve step facilitation) approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems.
Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2006, Issue 3. Art. No.: CD005032. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD005032.pub2
But please, feel free to complain about the year the studies were done. And feel free to tell me about a friend or two that may have been helped. I'll rely on the results of thousands over the heresay of one person claiming a few people were helped once...lol...even if true - who cares? I'm not saying that nobody is helped by AA or the 12-step program, I'm saying there's no need to inject God/religion into it - and that other programs are at least as effective.
I have no doubt that AA and similar 12-step programs help the occasional person - I just think they don't need to be so...well...cult-like...about it.
 Moanie
Joined: 4/16/2008
Msg: 103
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 9/27/2009 9:32:11 PM
Hi rocondon,

That's not what I'm hearing. I read that they were saying that it was not God/religion that was specifically, injected into it, as you say. They are saying that it was each individuals choice as to how they approached their spiritual healing.

If there had been no AA there would have been a lot fewer helped, no argument there I would think?

Also, it is not necessarily true that not injecting healing on a spiritual level would be the best answer for everyone. Those who rely for their moral guidance on those principals you disagree with, would not feel well served without its injection possibly.

Programs develop over time, become increasingly efficient or are replaced. AA deserves respect for its grassroots history, for all the good it has done, and for the people who are associated with it.
 Wilf Huckitt
Joined: 3/29/2008
Msg: 104
view profile
History
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:17:59 AM
Posted By: mo-mo on 9/27/2009 3:04:34 PM
Subject: 12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Message: I dont really care what it means.....
My dad gets his cake for 29 years sober tomorrow night.
The 12 step program saved our family and a lot of other people that i know.
Some people do manage to quit on their own... good for them.

My experience has been that those that work the program succeed at changing those traits that made them drink in the first place. The people that do it on their own may just stop drinking but do they ever address those underlying demons that made them drink?


Gimme an alcoholic in a 12 step recovery program over a dry drunk any day
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Its this kind of judge mental attitude that drives me nuts!
Sorry, but I would rather be titled a non drinker than a "dry drunk/alcoholic"!


Congrats to your Dad Mo-mo
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 107
view profile
History
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 9/28/2009 3:48:56 PM

p.s. you shouldn't take this so seriously - just trying to have a bit of fun
Thats good advice, and I'm taking it too. I couldn't care less about 12-step programs or the AA, I've just had things on my mind lately and picking a fight in this thread was a nice distraction from it.
Perhaps we'll duel again one day... *slaps you with a digital PMS gauntlet*...
 Wilf Huckitt
Joined: 3/29/2008
Msg: 113
view profile
History
12 STEPS CULT OR CURE??
Posted: 9/29/2009 11:50:32 AM
Hi I'm Wilf and I'm an Athole (pronounced with a lisp)

I prefer to be called an a$$hole over anything else that starts with an "A" because in my mind an a$$hole is just a fun loving "Heathen"!

I have been through 2 treatment programs and countless meetings, and always had a hard time with the higher power bs! Gets my hackle's up when anyone tries to shove religion down my throat! I also feel that for the folks in the 12 steps to judge the ones that do quit outside the programs, and call them names like "dry drunks" is bs as well. This name calling injects fear in the flock to stay true to the program! This type of psychology as I see it would equal what I assume you would find in a cult. (My thoughts!)


http://rational.org/index.php
^^^^By the same token I don't agree with the way Jack Trimply bashes AA! I have met some really awesome ppl in the programs that were (like myself) trying to absorb everything that was being taught to us. It was however his AVRT that worked great for me!

So now its not one day at a time.........



Its Wilf Huckitt I don't drink!
 sageb1
Joined: 2/26/2004
Msg: 114
view profile
History
it's only a cult of personality
Posted: 9/29/2009 2:31:23 PM
why AA can't be a cult:

There is no cult of personality except for bill w, and he was an acidhead. Seriously.

The anti-drug stance is what makes AA "religious". This stance NEVER works in rehab. Proof: The Phoenix program for meth addicts in rehab failed the first year on abstinence, but has been showing success by instituting a marijuana substitution program to "cure" meth.

IMHO if AA banned cigarettes, there'd be more relapses.

As well, Bill W"s advocacy of LSD alienated him to the anti-drug conservatives in the original home group so much he was quietly told not to promote drug use at meetings.

However, the LSD cure for alcohol had the lowest rate of relapse. Very few people who experienced LSD in Saskatchewan had relapses.

Why? Dropping acid does ALL the first steps prior to the one where you make amends to people that your drinking hurt.

As well, any impending psychoses involving violence is avoided because the doctors who implemented this study didn't let anyone trip out & escape, unlike the uncontrolled setting of illegal acid trips kids do nowadays.

Therefore, prohibition of some drugs which have therapeutic potential is immoral, much more than carefully controlled use of these recreational drugs.

Am I for legalization of some drugs? Yes.
Which ones?
Marijuana, because it is less harmful than cigarettes; entheogens such as LSD and ibogaine, for drug rehabilitation which lasts;
MDMA, which in pure form is safer than methamphetamines and other stimulants, though not as safe as caffeine;
Salvia, which is a kappa opioid agonist with some disassociative properties, but is the only carbohydrate with mild and moderately brief hallucinogenic properties -- mainly for entheogenic purposes involving rehabilitation from other drugs; and
a couple banned drugs which never got to market because the State fears pro-social drugs which are safer than alcohol and tobacco, because no one in power wants to lose profits and sales, and also because sociability is supposed to be learned, not medicated.

The last two drugs never got out of a lab setting, because today's State is afraid of a pro-social drug which is safer than alcohol and tobacco. Alcohol and tobacco companies would lose profit if the government had a safer alternative to alcohol and tobacco.
 sageb1
Joined: 2/26/2004
Msg: 115
view profile
History
it's only a cult of personality
Posted: 9/29/2009 2:33:59 PM
Note that I am promoting the legalization of some drugs for medicinal use. I do not endorse the recreational use of any drugs mentioned in the above reply, because it involves drugs which are currently being manufactured illegally.

I do not include marijuana manufactured by State-sponsored industry such as the crappy medicinal marijuana (MM) as it is not being produced in a manner which enhances its medicinal properties.

Sativex consists of cannaboids from a blend of marijuana, and is superior to gov't-approved MM. But it is only approved for pain by cancer victims, because no doctor would prescribe it off label. That'd be illegal.

However, a variant of Sativex could be recommended for psychoses caused by mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, if they moderated the THC and raised the CBD level a tad.

CBD is a natural sedative, the use of which is known to demonstrate marked changes in schizophrenics, whereas THC consistently may cause psychoses, sometimes requiring sedation by benzodiazepines such as Ativan or something stronger injected in a person's ass who is exhibiting any number of violent psychoses and/or psychotic behavior. Yep, sedatives control psychoses caused by the stimulant-like effect of such drugs as alcohol, high-THC marijuana, cocaine, crack, methamphetamines, crystal meth, PCP, etc.

However, with PCP, the amount of sedative needed to sedate a person may threaten the person's life. It cannot be an opioid derived from opium due to the risk of CV and breathing complications which may result in death by heart attack, stroke, or anoxia. As well, there is no safe benzodiazepine. Usually, the doctor administers a safe dose of a benzo and orders restraints. Most harm suffered by the patient, though, is due to the inappropriate behavior both by the patient and by his handlers i.e. violently trying to remove restraints, resisting hospital security personnel, etc. Indeed, a person undergoing PCP-induced psychosis is at risk first to himself and secondly to everyone within reach.
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