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 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 18
7th day sabbath and Sunday worshipPage 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
With the Church doing the Holy work on Sunday are you trying to say that the entire Churches of the world have been wrong for thousands of years?

I did not think so. One day os rest is what the image of God requires. The ultimate rest comes from being with Jesus.
The End
Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 19
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/11/2005 7:30:37 PM
Very possibly, we ran across an interesting site at where it speaks of the Sabbath and says this.

The fourth commandment instructing us to keep the Sabbath day holy is thirty percent of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments contain 322 words. 98 of those words are are about the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was held in high esteem in both in Jewish circles and in early Christianity. The Sabbath was made at creation, two thousand years before there were any Jews. After Abraham’s time the Sabbath applied to all people, aliens, and animals within the gates of the Israelites. (An alien is someone who is not a native of the land. This is the Hebrew “ger,” a righteous non-Hebrew who has been grafted into Israel. See Romans 11:13-21.)

God intends that the Sabbath be regarded as something honorable, something significant, not for its own sake, but because of what it represents. Keeping the Sabbath is the only one of the holy days to be ordained in the Ten Commandments. It is tied to two specific and highly significant acts in history: 1.) God’s “resting” after six days of creation (Gen. 2:2) and 2.) Israel’s deliverance from Egypt (Deut. 5:15).

God’s model of work and rest demonstrates how much of our lives is to be
spent in labor and how much is to be spent in worship. In both the Old and
New Testaments, the Sabbath calls to mind God’s sovereign rule and His
merciful redemption.

The Sabbath is not a yoke of bondage. It’s a day of joy, rest, eating, and enjoying Scriptures, fellowship, etc. The Sabbath was never intended to be a restraining time of punishment. What would your reaction be if your boss came to you and said, “I want you to take tomorrow off to rest. Enjoy yourself, eat, rest, read, just don’t even think about work.” Would you feel burdened?

The Sabbath is a holy time of resting from our weekly work in order to come into a joyous worship of God. It is a time of release from the stress and pressure of making a living. It is a time to rest from our normal pursuit of physical gain and to remember our Creator.

Keeping the Sabbath honors God, our Creator, who also rested on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3). It also unifies our families and sets priorities for them. This day of rest refreshes us spiritually and physically—providing time when we can gather together and when we can reflect on God without the stress of our everyday activities.

The study of when the Sabbath was changed to Sunday is very interesting. The New Testament is totally silent with regard to any change of the Sabbath day or any sacredness for Sunday. The adoption of Sunday observance in place of the Sabbath did not occur in the early Church of Jerusalem by virtue of the authority of Christ or of the Apostles, but rather took place several decades later.

In 132 A.D. Bar-Kokhba led a revolt against the Romans. When he was done, 50 percent of the population of Judea was dead and tens of thousands of men and women who remained alive were sold into slavery. Jews were forbidden to set foot in Jerusalem, and the province was renamed Palestine. It was a dangerous time to be identified with the Jews. During this period, the predominate day of worship among Christians gradually began to change from the Sabbath to Sunday. The day changed, in part, because of the need to disassociate the Christian movement from the Jewish nation.

Years later, the Church of Rome: Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E., worried about Judaizing and gave the following statement: “Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day (Sunday) they shall honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that it was the Catholics who changed the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday and claims this as a mark of its authority. Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine said, “Sunday observance is from when the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Needless to say this is a highly informative site, it also includes other Hebrew Holy Days if you are interested in learning about them.

Steve & Kara
 miss music
Joined: 1/18/2005
Msg: 20
view profile
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/11/2005 9:02:34 PM
Does it really matter if we worship on Sabbath of Sunday? Why is one or the other the 7th day? If I decide to call Sunday the first day of the week, then the Sabbath is the 7th. If I decide to call Monday the first day of the week, then Sunday is the 7th. (Is it written any where which day of the week is the 1st?)
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 21
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/11/2005 9:23:58 PM
Well, actually it is written the sabbath day is the day to be for God.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20.8

But I see your point also,if one is to look at this this way there is a way....

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20.8

But like sister_wife has said this was Gods commands in the old coventent and as ent_person said Jesus provides the rest, but with God making us an image of Him, He knows what is best for our bodies and that is what is being said work six days of the week and take one to be the sabbatical for you for the Lord. just as he has done in the creation of the wonderfull world we see.

Galatians 4:4-5“ But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born
under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of
sons. ”

Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 22
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/12/2005 10:02:33 AM
your write [Is it written any where which day of the week is the 1st?

it is written at this website

How to determine the day of the week, given the month, day and year
First a brief explanation: In the Gregorian Calendar, over a period of four hundred years, there are 97 leap years and 303 normal years. Each normal year, the day of January 1 advances by one; for each leap year it advances by two.

303 + 97 + 97 = 497 = 7 * 71

As a result, January 1 year N occurs on the same day of the week as January 1 year N + 400. Because the leap year pattern also recurs with a four hundred year cycle, a simple table of four hundred elements, and single modulus, suffices to determine the day of the week (in the Gregorian Calendar), and does it much faster than all the other algorithms proposed. Also, each element takes (in principle) only three bits; the entire table thus takes only 1200 bits; on many computers this will be less than the instructions to do all the complicated calculations proposed for the other algorithms.

Incidental note: Because 7 does not divide 400, January 1 occurs more frequently on some days than others! Trick your friends! In a cycle of 400 years, January 1 and March 1 occur on the following days with the following frequencies:

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
Jan 1: 58 56 58 57 57 58 56
Mar 1: 58 56 58 56 58 57 57

Of interest is that (contrary to most initial guesses) the occurrence is not maximally flat.

In the Mathematical Gazette, vol. 53,, pp.127-129, it is shown that the 13th of the month is more likely to be a Friday than any other day.The author is a 13 year old S.R.Baxter.

The Gregorian calendar was introduced in 1582 in parts of Europe; it was adopted in 1752 in Great Britain and its colonies, and on various dates in other countries. It replaced the Julian Calendar which has a four-year cycle of leap years; after four years January 1 has advanced by five days. Since 5 is relatively prime to 7, a table of 4 * 7 = 28 elements is necessary for the Julian Calendar.

There is still a 3 day over 10,000 years error which the Gregorian calendar does not take into account. At some time such a correction will have to be done but your software will probably not last that long!

Here is a standard method suitable for mental computation:

Take the last two digits of the year.
Divide by 4, discarding any fraction.
Add the day of the month.
Add the month's key value: JFM AMJ JAS OND 144 025 036 146
Subtract 1 for January or February of a leap year.
For a Gregorian date, add 0 for 1900's, 6 for 2000's, 4 for 1700's, 2 for 1800's; for other years, add or subtract multiples of 400.
For a Julian date, add 1 for 1700's, and 1 for every additional century you go back.
Add the last two digits of the year.
Divide by 7 and take the remainder.
Now 1 is Sunday, the first day of the week, 2 is Monday, and so on.

We are sure there are many other places in the internet alone where it speaks of Sunday being the first day of the week. You might reasearch dogpile web search engine to find information, we have learned much from all we research there, we just typed in the question what day is the first of the week?

Steve & Kara
Joined: 9/7/2005
Msg: 23
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/12/2005 3:48:19 PM
God might of rested on the 7th day, but no one was there to know what day it was. I personaly think you don't need a said day to worship him. Is it to remind people to do it. I always wondered about that. I always thought that was his way of saying everyone needs a brake. Why your taking your brake thank me for giving it to you. I personaly don't think he is going to be up set if your not a member of a church some where, as long as you know him.
Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 24
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/12/2005 5:29:12 PM
Actually sundown is at different times all over the world. Time was created by Yahweh and He understands when sundown is for each person, no need to think Sabbath would begin around 8am. A good source of what time sundown is is then input your zipcode and it will give you the precise time for sundown and when sabbath begins.

Steve & Kara
Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 25
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/12/2005 5:34:48 PM
you write but no one was there to know what day it was

Actually, Adam and Eve were there.

Steve & Kara
Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 26
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/13/2005 8:27:00 AM
I just checked Genesis, and all was created by Yahweh (God) was created in the first 5 days and the 6th day Yahweh created Man, although woman wasn't created at that time. This creation was the final creation until He saw how lonely man was and created a helpmeet for him, who Adam named Eve. So I must retract part of this statement in that Eve wasn't there on the first Sabbath, the first day of rest. Sorry for the confusion in this area.

Steve & Kara
 miss music
Joined: 1/18/2005
Msg: 27
view profile
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/14/2005 12:02:04 PM
Steve&Kara, thank you for your interesting post in message 80 about how to determine which day of the week any given date is. The information makes it possible for me to take any date (like January 27, 1879) and figure out whether it is a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc. (Just as idiot savants do)

Fascinating as this may be, it does not answer my question as to which day of the week is the seventh day mentioned in the bible.

Perhaps the bible, as other people have mentioned in this thread, was only stating that out of every seven days, one of them must be kept holy, and it didn't matter which one.

Of course, from a logistical and sociological point of view, it makes the most sense for everyone to agree on a day of the week. Society is held together by such commonly held ideas.

In any case, is anyone really offended that Christians generally choose Sunday as their holy day and Jews choose Saturday? Is this a problem? Or are we merely engaging in a diverting and interesting exercise of logic and conjecture? I hope it's the latter.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 28
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/14/2005 4:32:56 PM
Oh People I have sinned, for my words are of me a mere man and the words of God stands as Jesus said.
I ask for forgiveness here.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that He did not come to destroy the law. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” We saw in chapter one that the earth will abide forever. Here again in the clearest words possible Jesus tells us that He did not come to abolish the law but that the law will be in effect for ever.

Which law is Jesus referring to? The law that will be in force throughout all eternity, the Ten Commandments. How can Sunday-keepers claim that Jesus abolished the law, when He says plainly in these verses that He did NOT abolish the law? Jesus fulfilled the law by perfectly obeying every one of the Ten Commandments.

We saw in First John 3:4 that sin is breaking any of the Ten Commandments. “Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” When Sunday-keepers throw out the Ten Commandments, they are throwing away the definition of sin.

When did God institute His Ten Commandment law? We know that Satan sinned in heaven before the earth was created, so the Ten Commandments must have been in force then. We also know that Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, so the Ten Commandments must have been in force in the Garden of Eden. We saw in Chapter one that those who are saved will be keeping God’s Sabbath day, Saturday, holy throughout all eternity. The Ten Commandment law is the constitution of heaven. It is the law whereby God’s entire universe operates. If it were not, the entire universe would have the problems we have on earth today.

In fact, one of the main reasons God created the earth was to show to the universe what happens when people continually break God’s law. First Corinthians 4:9 tells us: “For we are made a spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men.” The word “spectacle” is translated from the Greek word theatron, which means “theater.” This present earth was created to be the theater of the universe where God is demonstrating to all the intelligent beings in the universe what happens when a society disobeys His law, the Ten Commandments. As the final result of the drama taking place on this earth, all of God’s creation — men, angels, and other forms of intelligent life throughout the vast reaches of space — will thoroughly understand that without obeying God’s law there can be no peace, for they are witnessing the trouble, misery, pain, and death that are the natural consequences of disregarding the law of God.

Isa 24.4-5 The wars and trouble, the pain and suffering all over the earth today are a direct result of people disregarding God’s Ten Commandments.

And I can say that I have an infection on the right foot that is a direct result of not obeying the Law.

I beg you always refer to the Holy Bible for it is never wrong. always ask for God's help when reading it He will show you what is to be, if not ask, seek, knock, and repeat till it is. Amen.
Hebrews 4.2-12
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We saw that we can never quit sinning without God’s grace, God’s help. Paul says in Romans 7:18 that there is no good thing in him. We are full of sinful tendencies. The idea is to replace our thoroughly sinful characters with a character formed by God’s grace. When that happens we won’t sin anymore. But, in order for this to happen, we must want this with all our heart and mind. In order for this to happen it must be our supreme desire to want to follow God perfectly and to keep His commandments. God will never force us to obey Him.

Jesus came to earth as a human being and condemned sin in the flesh by never sinning, showing us that we can also do this. When the “requirement of the law” is fulfilled in us, we will not be sinning. When the “requirement of the law” is fulfilled in us, we will be keeping the Ten Commandments perfectly, including properly keeping holy God’s Sabbath day, Saturday.

Galatians, like Romans, has a lot to say about being justified. Consider Galatians 2:16. “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Remember that being justified means being made righteous, and that being righteous is keeping all ten of the commandments. Remembering also that God’s grace is the power given to those who really want to obey God, we see in these verses also that we are justified by faith. We are made righteous by faith also. Faith, therefore, operates like God’s grace to give us the ability, the power to obey God’s law. This is why Paul says that “by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified,” because nobody can obey the law without God’s grace or faith.

Verses seventeen and eighteen make it clear that it is possible for us to fall away after we have come to Christ. “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.“

The next verse talks about being dead to the law. “For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.“

If this law that a person is dead to is the Ten Commandments, and being dead to the law means that we no longer need to obey the Ten Commandments, then are we free to commit murder or adultery, or any of the other sins prohibited by the Ten Commandments?

Notice how Paul became dead to the law. Verse nineteen says that he became dead to the law THROUGH THE LAW. The Ten Commandments convicted Paul of sin, and by the Grace of Christ he was able to overcome sin so that he no longer was under the condemnation of the law. If he never breaks the law, then he does not have to worry about the law. He has developed his character to the point that he naturally never sins. He is dead to the law. He is a born-again Christian, who, according to First John 3:9, “cannot sin.”

This verse is reminiscent of Galatians 3:24,25. “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”

How is the Ten Commandment law our schoolmaster? The law points out our sins as Paul says in Romans 7:7: “What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” When we look into God’s law, the Ten Commandments, and compare our characters to that law, we realize that we are in a terrible condition. When faith comes, when the power from Christ to overcome sin and obey the law comes, we are able to quit sinning. When this happens, we no longer need the schoolmaster, for our characters are then in harmony with Christ.

Galatians 2:21 tells us what we saw in Romans, that it is by the power of Christ, His grace and His faith, that we are able to obey the law. “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Notice that Paul does not frustrate the grace or power of God to keep him from sinning. Paul, therefore, must be obeying all ten of the commandments. When he says that righteousness does not come by the law he is saying again that he can not keep the law by himself, without grace. Remember that the Ten Commandments define righteousness. (Psalms 119:172) Paul also says here that if he could keep the law without Christ, then Christ did not need to die.

Next let us continue into Galatians, chapter 3. Verse one says, “O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified among you?” Notice the phrase “obey the truth.” What is truth? We saw in Psalms 119:151 that all of the Ten Commandments are truth. “You are near, O Lord; and all your commandments are truth.” Someone bewitched the Galatians by telling them that they no longer needed to obey the Ten Commandments.

As we continue in Galatians 3 remember that verse one said that the Galatians had been bewitched. “This only would I learn of you, Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” Who is it that receives God’s Holy Spirit? We saw that those who disregard any of the Ten Commandments cannot have the Holy Spirit, for the Bible tells us in Acts 5:32 that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who OBEY Him. “We are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God has given to them that obey him.” Since it is impossible for us to obey the law without the grace or faith of Christ, we cannot receive the spirit by trying to obey the law without Christ’s help. Therefore grace or faith must come first to give us the power to obey the law so we can have God’s Holy Spirit. And we saw that God’s grace or faith can only come if we want to obey the Ten Commandments with all our being.

We saw in chapter one that Satan gives people his spirit and makes them believe that it is the Holy Spirit. Sunday-keepers cannot have the Holy Spirit because by keeping Sunday they are not obeying God.

“Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” Here we see that the Galatians had become self-confident, believing that they could keep the law by themselves without the grace of Christ. Of course they could not keep the law without grace, and so when they became proud and self-sufficient they became backsliders.

You receive God’s Spirit by being willing to obey Him, by being willing to put fourth the effort required to overcome sin and keep His commandments. If you manifest an attitude of rebellion against keeping the commandments, or if you become self-confident that you can keep the law yourself, you cannot receive the Holy Spirit. When one becomes self-confident he thinks that he is righteous in himself. This is the recipe for failure.

Continuing with Galatians 3:6 “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” We see here again that true Christians are modern-day Israel.

Verse 8: “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.” We saw earlier that to be justified was to obey the Ten commandments. Paul says that it is through faith that we get the power to be able to do this.

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them.”

We have seen that no one can keep the law without help from Christ. That is what Paul is saying here when he says “no man is justified by the law. . .” He then goes on to say that the just shall live by faith, by grace, by the power of God. When our conscience against sin is strong by the power of God, we will not sin; we will not break any of the Ten commandments. Paul says in verse ten that if you are going to keep the law all by yourself, you had better keep them all that way.

We are seeing that there are many texts in the New Testament in many different books that say this same thing over and over again.

For I will learn for my mistakes and always wish to do God's will.
He shall come first in all that I do.
Thank God for Jesus!

Remember that Jesus, Himself, told us to keep the commandments if we expect to be saved. “And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said to him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:16,17) How could it possibly be any clearer?
Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 29
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/14/2005 6:37:48 PM
Wow Dei, we are rejoicing with you, if only one persons eyes are opened then this was a question that has borne fruit. We know it may be sudden but we would reccomend two places that have a book that is very eye opening and a copy of the scriptures that actually has Yahweh's name still printed in it. The book is entitled Fossilized Customs and can be found at, the scriptures can be found at
The name of the website for the scriptures is institute for scripture research.

We will be praying for you as your eyes are now open and will continue to be opened to the most amazing truths that Yahweh will reveal.

Steve & Kara
Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 30
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/14/2005 7:11:13 PM
One thing we were referring to may have gotton buried in the lengthy mathmatical equations but here it is "Now 1 is Sunday, the first day of the week, 2 is Monday, and so on."
That was in reference to your question " (Is it written any where which day of the week is the 1st?)"
We are not sure if there is anyone offended by Christians choosing Sunday to worship and Jewish people choosing Saturday. Mainly the question is to see if truth is revealed in shedding some light on the scriptures and to find out why it was changed from the day Yahweh commanded us to remember to keep holy. Also we see lots of division between Jews & Christians because of this. How can division be good? Also in a book entitled Come out of Her my People by CJ Koster, the author writes that anti-semitism was one of the main reasons why Sabbath worship was changed to Sunday worship.

For us it's more sad than offending that there is such division among people who believe the same thing, and worse that because of this we have effectively alienated the Orthodox Jews when we should be trying to reach them with the good news of the salvation that Messiah Yahshua can bring to their lives.

Steve & Kara
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 31
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/14/2005 8:59:01 PM
I thank you for this thread and I am always willing to learn God's will with the references to scripture make it all that much easier to understand His sayings, sometimes.

May God's peace and Love be expressed every Saturday, by everyone, every Sabbath.
 miss music
Joined: 1/18/2005
Msg: 32
view profile
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/15/2005 12:06:09 PM
Steve&Kara, actually, the part in the math that said "1 is Sunday, 2 is Monday" is simply a mathematical preface to the calculations. It's a way to convert a date into a number. Thus, if you solve the equation and get X=5, then you know that the answer is Thursday. You could easily have set up the equations so that 1=Wednesday. Thus, if X=5, you'd know the answer was Sunday.

Thus, that mathematical exercise has nothing to do with any teaching about which day is the 7th day of the week.

Do you truly believe that having a different day of worship is alienating? What's your proof?

You state that anti-semitism is one of the main reasons why Sabbath worship was changed to Sunday worship. So far, there has been no evidence of this. One early poster told us when the date was changed. I posted from the Catholic Catechism about why it was changed. Had everything to do with the resurrection of Jesus and nothing to do with the Jewish faith.

If your question is about anti-semitism, perhaps we should start a new thread.
Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 33
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/15/2005 12:08:21 PM
sounds like a good idea, see, we feel that being told you must worship on sunday or die, whether your Jewish, or a believer would be classified as anti-semitism or anti-christianity.

Steve & Kara
 miss music
Joined: 1/18/2005
Msg: 34
view profile
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/15/2005 12:28:46 PM
Steve&Kara, where is it said that everyone who doesn't worship on Sunday will die? I have never heard that before.
Joined: 12/6/2005
Msg: 35
view profile
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/15/2005 1:46:07 PM
Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that He did not come to destroy the law. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” We saw in chapter one that the earth will abide forever. Here again in the clearest words possible Jesus tells us that He did not come to abolish the law but that the law will be in effect for ever.


thank you bro, dei Gratia. Yes ,not one jot or tittle will be changed. And oh how time has changed thru the sands of time!

What was nailed to the cross and the Messiah Jesus's/Yehoshuah's crucifixion? Was it the Law of God or was it sin that was nailed? Think Moses and the serpent staff in the wilderness? Let's take a walk thru the OT shall we. Now history keeps repeating itself.

numbers 21...

The Bronze Serpent
4 Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. ***8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
Now what did this signify ? Same with the cricufixion, when one behold's Jesus onthe corss, Jesus became sin remember. John 3:14-15, 1 John 2:2 Why did Jesus yell our to His Father in Heaven, why have you forsaken me? Remember Jesus never knew separation from His Father in heaven! For thru the Sprit of God, he was in total union with he Father. As in the gospel of John, many times it speaks the Father and I are one!
And he who has been bitten by the sting of sin ,who looks upon the cross shall be saved.
John 3...
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

***14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Now we do know that coming to the cross seers the conscience to repentence. But it is thru this viewing of Jesus becoming sin as He took on the sins of the world here, that they can enter into Life. The birth from above,spirit. For without repentence there is no spiritual birth. Hm...unless a seed dies it can not bring forth life!

So really what was truly nailed to the cross. Not the Torah, Jesus gave the revelation of the Torah of God, first the physical, then the spiritual. Israel only knew the outside form, the rituals ,of sin and offering sacrifices. What ancient Israel was taught as a foreshadow and type. Tho God did speak even in the OT times. It is not sacrifices I want, but love and mercy. So Jesus brought the revelation of God.

And another question ,who has final say, man or God? I say God. Now if God says something is perpetual, then no one, I mean no one, has the right to change it! For who is the author of the 'good book'... men, or people inspired by the Spirit of God, driven to write the words of God from the ethers of Heaven? I say God is the author of the 'good book' and not up for debate here! Mankind, when inconvenienced, likes to do things for his own personal gain driven by fallen logic of mind, ego of Self seems to rules supreme! The Sabbath was not some manmade creation,but given as a gift and revelation from God Himself. For the day of rest but also symbolising the Age of Rest aka the 7th day symbolising the Messiah age of Shalom, when Messiah Jesus rules the earth for a 1000 years. In Leviticus, it speaks of 7 year sabbath, of restoration of the land and cancellations of debts and freeing of slaves. Then there is the Jubilee years of the 50th year.So in some cases, Israel got a double portion blessing on the 49 and 50th year,of restoration and cancelation of debts and freeing of slaves. All the Torah of God, I mean the whole of scriptures is good wisdom. One can not just pick and choose at personal whim here,and there is continuity thru the whole book. But one needs the Spirit of God to enlighten the mind with to understand. Why did Jesus speak parables, so only those who had ears to hear, and eyes who see can understand! Carnal man can not understand the things of Spirit ,for they are spirit. And only the Spirit of God can understand and reveal spiritual things. Also think Isaiah, has the lion laid down with the lamb yet? Me thinks not, the dark overlord of this world still reigns, chaos,death and atrophy still ensues. Just look around you and this present day world! Read the news, it'll shock ya! And darn it, Messiah Jesus has not planted his big toe on the mount of olives yet, tho I keep watchful over that one!

Anyways,read romans for yourself, it speaks on these very things. Not some theology book either. Ask the Spirit of God to be your guide and open your mind to His wisdom and revelation. For it speaks about the Law and the Spirit of the Law. And well the sabbath is part of the Law of God.

Ok, so what of the Law of God, an example... one is clothed in the crimson mantle of Jesus. So that God on longer sees sin , but now we are seen thru the eyes of Jesus. This is grace. Now when we do sin due to weakness and ignorance,for the heart is deceitfully wicked to no end! Still babes in the spiritual wilderness, while striving to grow in Jesus, when we do sin, we have a judaic High Priest who interceeds on our behalf. Of course we must confess our sins to Jesus. Cos sin causes a separation between the person and God,and well it is the believer who seeks reconcilation and the continual presence of God before them always. So a needing to keep the slate clean between oneself and God. Keep the flow of connection and communication going, after all God is looking for a relationship with His people. In a spiritual sense He is married to His people!

Hosea 2: “Therefore, behold, I will allure her, will bring her into the WILDERNESS, and speak comfort to her. 15 I will give her her vineyards from there, and the Valley of Achor as a door of hope; she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, as in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.
***16 And it shall be, in that day, says the LORD, that you will call Me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer call Me ‘My Master,’

Jeremiah 3:10-14 "And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to Me with her whole heart, but in pretense," says the LORD. 11 Then the LORD said to me, "Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12 "Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say: ‘Return, backsliding Israel,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not cause My anger to fall on you. For I am merciful,’ says the LORD; ‘I will not remain angry forever….***14 Return, O backsliding children," says the LORD; "for I am MARRIED to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion”.
Jeremiah 31:1-30 "At the same time, says the Lord, I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people. 2 Thus says the Lord: The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness - Israel, when I went to give him rest. 3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with loving kindness I have drawn you. 4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel!

Jeremiah 31:31-40 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (Hint: Are the Jews Christian yet?) - ***32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was 'a husband to them', says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Isaiah 62

3 You shall also be a crown of glory
In the hand of the LORD,
And a royal diadem
In the hand of your God.
***4 You shall no longer be termed Forsaken,
Nor shall your land any more be termed Desolate;
But you shall be called Hephzibah/My delight is in her and your land Beulah/married
For the LORD delights in you,
And your land shall be married.

So consider the comandments of God,what I call the Torah of God, the wedding contract.
If you love someone you want too please them and laws are the boundary of a good marriage, it keeps it safe from preditors and homewreckers! Jesus is the judaic wedding cup! And Jesus came in the flesh to reveal the face of His Father, God! He also nailed sin on the cross, he gave the 'new life' thru the resurrection,being the first fruit of the resurrection. The first of many, bros and sister, in and thru Himself. So who has the authority? God. Man reflects the glory of God, woman was made from man, therefore reflects the authority of man. God is the hubby, He alone is the authority. His Law, and any part of it, He has the last word on it!

Joined: 12/6/2005
Msg: 36
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7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/15/2005 2:07:33 PM
Romans 14
The Law of Liberty

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”[d]

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

The Law of Love

14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.

19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Well these verses sum it all up, it this not an issue for debate, but something one needs to take before God alone! I was once where many of yous were, but was by the wind of the Spirit of God to change my ways. I wall called out of churches. I studying and meditating on the scriptures, in rhema I learned to become Torah observant, I was instructed to Keep the Feasts of the Lord, and the biblical sabbath. Now this was personal instruction,it did not come by any man whatsoever. So people take this to God ok, let Him lead you in the path you are to walk. Man does not destine your path, only God does. Nor does man have the final say,only God does.

But inquiring on posts, you seek the wisdom of man,not the wisdom of Self, but is not God's wisdom most important?

To where one rises or falls, it is by God alone. So please, my best advice is, take it to God alone! Let Him reveal to you personally what is His will in all things, even this, the sabbath issue.

Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 37
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/15/2005 4:08:47 PM
Shalom Dear Sister,

Oh how challenging, and convicting this post is to me. It has brought me to the rock of truth and I feel I must do what is right, at work they have been pressuring me to work on the Sabbath, I have been brought to the realization that this is definitly a salvation issue, I absolutly cannot work on the Sabbath no matter what the cost. It will be interesting to see what lies ahead. I will need all the Shalom (peace) that only Yahweh and His dear saints can bring me to face this dare I say battle.

Joined: 11/22/2005
Msg: 38
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/16/2005 5:49:24 PM
That's an interesting question, does anyone know if there is anything written about working in the New Earth.

Steve & Kara
 miss music
Joined: 1/18/2005
Msg: 39
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7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 12/17/2005 12:49:47 AM
I googled "Sunday blue laws" as Funn1 suggested. I found:

Interesting. Doesn't have much to do with whether or not Sunday can count as the 7th day of the week, the day of rest that God speaks of in the bible. It talks more about such laws being supported by Christian churches as a way to help their faithful attend mass on a day that their church deemed holy.
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 41
7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 7/13/2008 1:42:18 PM
The Catholic church borrowed a lot from the Romans. The idea of choosing one certain day to devote exclusively to worship was not one of them, that I know of.
But, the idea of having "feast days" and such...definitely. Rome had almost a million people a day to feed...most of them poor. 2-3 "feast days" a week kept them from starving to death...think of it as early welfare. The church used it too. Then began using "feast days" to celebrate certain personages. Saints and such. Most of these days are now done away with...but not all. Some plces still hold masses on various saints days...they had a candlelight procession here last month for the namesake saint of the town. (Almost every town is named after a saint in Quebec...sometmes two or three towns even!)
Joined: 5/12/2009
Msg: 42
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7th day sabbath and Sunday worship
Posted: 5/12/2013 6:32:56 PM
The 7th day Sabbath is important, well said funn 1.
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