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 MB58SC
Joined: 2/1/2007
Msg: 573
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Circumsized or not circumsizedPage 6 of 35    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35)
I understand what you're saying. You're talking about the cultural impact. I'm not quite sure I understand how a lack of choice socially with a females body in relationship to removing hair, skin, or other sources of the body relates to a male child and the procedure. In both cases neither have a choice.

Are you basically saying the choice aspect -- which others have put forth -- is moot relative to socially acceptable appearances? If so, I agree. As far as the other reasons behind the procedure, your points are valid in my opinion.
 MB58SC
Joined: 2/1/2007
Msg: 590
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/22/2007 9:49:26 AM
You know what I find interesting, though I do realize this is an incredibly huge exaggeration, but -- where do we individually, culturally, and universally as a race, draw the line at altering the bodies of children?

I know parents sometimes let their kids get earings young, -- the list of things goes on, piercings, various other body modifications.

Imagine if a set of parents right after having their child come into the world said "please neuter our child."

I mean it's funny and crazy to think about, but can you imagine what some societies in the future might do!
 Hotti_6969
Joined: 11/15/2005
Msg: 592
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/22/2007 10:55:33 AM
HA I have had both and really i prefer circumsized but i didnt mind Un I got my son cut when he was born cuz of health reasons and just stories i heard Ya ok he was sore for like the first hour and it looks so bad and i felt like a total **** but in the end he will thank me when he doesnt get infection so Yeah if i am a bad parent for getting my son cut then fine what ever get over it and Bite me It was my choice not yours
 NoahCoast2Coast
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 597
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/22/2007 10:29:03 PM
I think what I find most disconcerting about the circumcized or uncircumcized debate an antisemitic-monopolistic thing, so let the parents make the considerations, and when circumcision happens, it happens quickly and the baby doesnt even remember it. I by the way, am circumcized, I certainly have never had any smegma, and I've been given some compliments.
 javelin1010
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 599
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/22/2007 11:21:58 PM
Glad I was clipped at birth> i was born when I was very young and don't recall it. Cleaner and more sensitive I think but i've always been this way so I can't compare it. Ladies???
 Kirklet
Joined: 3/21/2006
Msg: 600
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/22/2007 11:33:16 PM
Excuse me for not reading all 20 pages...I only read the first page.

As a nurse I can tell you, as well as from what family members and parents have said, that many times this is done to lessen irritation, infection, etc.

I am CUT and my parents did NOT do this for a religious purpose. It was recommended at the time (1977) by my physician to have it done.
 ~breathlesshush~
Joined: 4/25/2006
Msg: 609
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/23/2007 9:27:42 PM
I did not have my son circumsized. My ex and I nearly broke up over this (he is), but I stood my ground. The point is, simply put, ALL boys are born with a foreskin. It is normal. Why the hell are people cutting them off!!!???

And yes, plain old common sense dictates that an uncut penis would be more sensitive than one which is cut. Not rocket science people.

As for cleanliness, ever seen what a woman has between her legs?? I mean come on, if that's not a breeding ground for bacteria, I don't know what is. Personal hygeine, teach it, practise it.

Sheesh, whatever happened to good 'ole common sense?


As for the prevention of HIV, ever heard of abstinence, followed by condom use?? Nah, lets just chop off the foreskin, I'm sure it'll cut wayyyyyyyyyy down on the cases of HIV.
 katjeep
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 614
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/25/2007 5:58:10 AM
My son had to be done twice, doctor didn't do it right. The second time they used a plasta bell and it fell off in 4 days and was healed real good, plus it wasn't that much pain.
 tiny_wonders
Joined: 12/11/2006
Msg: 625
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 12:58:27 AM
uncircumsized is the way. the skin is there for a reason.
 tiny_wonders
Joined: 12/11/2006
Msg: 626
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 12:59:19 AM
if your uncircumsized and you have a cleaniness problems. wash your freaking penis. its NOT hard.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 MB58SC
Joined: 2/1/2007
Msg: 627
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 4:53:58 AM


its NOT hard.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Unless it is.
 ~breathlesshush~
Joined: 4/25/2006
Msg: 628
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 7:21:29 AM
Great post EternalGrooviness.

Once again we have an issue here which is, unfortunately, often clouded by emotion. As I stated in an earlier post my son is NOT circumsized. I recently got into an argument with a close friend about this issue, her son is cut.

She flat out said "It's disgusting". So I asked her to be sure and let my six-year-old son know that she thinks he's "disgusting". You see, after I shot down all of her "arguments" in favor of circumcision, this is all she was left with.

It bothers me that the majority of parents who make the decision to have their boys cut don't even know the origins of circumcision, and very few research it beforehand. I did, and made what I think was an informed choice.

I only wish more parents did the same, rather than giving in to peer pressure.
 RedPaladin
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 641
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 3:23:58 PM
The foreskin facilitates intercourse: foreskin is a natural gliding stimulator of the vaginal walls during intercourse, increasing a woman's overall clitoral stimulation and helping a woman achieve orgasm more often and more quickly.

The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft and The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating movable skin.

Chinese scientists found a statistically significant increase in erectile dysfunction following circumcision. Pang and Kim (South Korea) reported "Of those who were circumcised long after they had been sexually active, > 80% reported no noticeable difference in sexuality, but a man was twice as likely to have experienced diminished sexuality than improved sexuality."

In another study by Kim and Pang of 255 men circumcised after the age of 20 and 118 who were not circumcised, they reported that masturbatory pleasure decreased in 48% of the respondents and increased in 8%. Masturbatory difficulty increased in 63% but was easier in 37%. 20% reported that their sex life was worse after circumcision and 6% reported that it had improved (the abstract is silent about the other 74%). "There were no significant differences in sexual drive, erection, ejaculation, and ejaculation latency time between circumcised and uncircumcised men." They concluded, "There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings."

...so which is more important to you: maximum stimulation or aesthetics, even though there's a risk of impotence?
 ~breathlesshush~
Joined: 4/25/2006
Msg: 643
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 3:40:39 PM
I'm sorry quadmom, I have to agree with Bubbles on this one. Your response was very rude, I'm sure you could have found a much more diplomatic way to state a preference. I have read many of your posts and have been impressed with your replies, and find this one a bit of a shocker.

A penis with a foreskin is not disgusting, it merely has a small sheath of skin over the head. When erect it looks exactly the same as one that has been cut (I dated a guy for four years who was uncut).

As for sex feeling any different, in my experience it was exactly the same. When the penis becomes erect the foreskin "disappears", so why would it feel any different?

As for your comments lyinggame, I think perhaps your lack of an orgasm may have something to do with your mindset...if I was repulsed and turned off by a part of a man's body, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have an orgasm either.

Just a thought.
 tiny_wonders
Joined: 12/11/2006
Msg: 651
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 7:12:07 PM
i think its all in your head.
 tiny_wonders
Joined: 12/11/2006
Msg: 653
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/26/2007 7:13:56 PM
im confused......
 mystlw
Joined: 9/19/2005
Msg: 661
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/28/2007 3:36:53 PM
There are pros and cons of both sides of the coin but in the end, I don't think it makes that much of a difference.


Given the fact that three different studies have shown that uncircumcised men are at more than twice the risk of HIV infection, it seems to me that there's a HUGE difference.
 mystlw
Joined: 9/19/2005
Msg: 666
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 2/28/2007 6:53:13 PM
Which studies? I'd like to see those.


Articles from more reputable sources:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,,1971526,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/health/14hiv.html?ex=1323752400&en=a7128f5b111e1c4d&ei=5090

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=59013

The results from these three studies were so unexpected, that they halted two trials because it was so obviously unfair to withhold circumcision from the uncircumcised group.


I also like this paragraph from the New York Times article:



Earlier studies on Western men have shown that circumcision significantly reduces the rate at which men infect women with the virus that causes cervical cancer. A study published in 2002 in The New England Journal of Medicine found that uncircumcised men were about three times as likely as circumcised ones with a similar number of sexual partners to carry the human papillomavirus.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 673
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 3/1/2007 7:10:58 AM
to the above.

circumcision dosn't "prevent" anything. All the studies that show benefits are based on a "reduction in the chance" of getting the diseases and at that it's minimal. if there was such a huge medical benefit as you claim the procedure would be recommened by the health ministry in both europe and north america. However this is not the case.
In fact the only countries that openly do circumcision as a norm are developing countries and then the US.

Besides. if you use circumcision as a method of preventing STD's you are in for a great surprise. The use of a condom is always recommened and with that it nullifies any sort of benefit a circumcised penis may have.

In addition to the so called prevention of STD's. you should probably consider the reason for the foreskin and read up on what exactly it does and see the benefits of it like the sensitivity the foreskin adds, and not just in the thousands of nerve endings in the foreskin itself. there is also the fact that it protects the head of the penis and keeps it in a natural state.
just remember, not many years ago they thought tonsils were useless and cut them away happily.


The arguments thus far for circumcision have been pretty silly.

1. circumcision is healthier as it "prevents" STD's. - silly since we live in society where condoms are reguarly used so this dosn't really matter, besides it's a reduction not an elimination.

2. circumcized is prettier - well that's just based on the norm and personal experience, a fully erect non-circumcised penis with the foreskin retracted looks fairly identical to one that's circumcised

3. it's cleaner - this is more based on the individual than the penis. if someone dosn't cleam themselves they probably have more issues, in any case it is based on the individual not on the state of their penis.

4. i just like it that way - personal opinions are fine. however if they are based on false information it is time to re-examine them.


there is tons of information on the benefits of the foreskin, i think it's time for some to read up on it.
 ~breathlesshush~
Joined: 4/25/2006
Msg: 679
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 3/1/2007 2:15:26 PM
That's a personal preference Cheap Trick Fan.

And for what it's worth, me four.
 mystlw
Joined: 9/19/2005
Msg: 681
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 3/1/2007 3:55:49 PM

All this "disease" talk about foreskin and no foreskin is crapola.


I'm sure The Centers For Disease Control and The World Health Organization (which says, and I quote, " "Circumcision is the most potent intervention in HIV prevention that has been described.") will be eternally grateful for your expert opinion.

Expect medical journals everywhere to be rewritten in the near future.
 tiny_wonders
Joined: 12/11/2006
Msg: 684
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 3/1/2007 8:53:35 PM
who the **** really cares?
 ~breathlesshush~
Joined: 4/25/2006
Msg: 685
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 3/1/2007 9:19:00 PM
Well, considering there have been over 600 posts to this thread tiny wonders, I'd say a few people care. If you're not one of them, I'm sure you could find something else to read and dazzle with your witty replies.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 686
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Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 3/2/2007 7:05:05 AM
When I was considering this issue for my two boys, everything I read indicated that there were no health issues if the area is kept clean (a few seconds in the shower or bath), which we would hope circumcised boys are doing too, ew, and as seeking you noted, SWS is responsible for stds, not circumcision.

My X was opposed to it because his son's howling bothered him more than a decade later. I based my decision on the medical/psychological suggestion that your children 'match' the father (who was born at home and never circumcised) and my feeling that it was unnecessary pain that was a social convention more than anything else.

When I was born, circumcision was the norm just like bottle feeding. It is now seen as more of a choice. Again, if kept clean, it does not result in urinary tract infections but like women, some males are predisposed to this whether circumcised or not. It has no impact on sexual performance and an erect penis, whether circumcised or not, does not have that great a difference in appearance.

It's a choice and should not be so big a deal that 700 people have been arguing about it for how long? More than two years, wow. Wonder if the breast-feeding in public thread will ever catch up.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 687
Circumsized or not circumsized
Posted: 3/2/2007 7:11:03 AM
In regards to "bubbles1979" post on the references for circumcision.

First of all, as far as i can tell these refereces are based on HIV factors in Africa where they dont use condoms. the recomondation to do circumcision is only based on the fact that it is in Africa.

also, your websources are outdated and come up with errors that the pages do not exist anymore.. However, i can provide you with a quote from the ama-assn.org website which you seem to quote a lot. This is based on the HIV studies

"Regardless of these findings, behavioral factors are far more important risk factors for acquisition of HIV and other sexually transmissible diseases than circumcision status, and circumcision cannot be responsibly viewed as "protecting" against such infections"

i think that is clear enough in removing the whole HIV part as a reason to have it done.


I find it weird that no one seems to care about the benefits of the foreskin and what it actually does. seriously, if you are cutting off parts of the body it should be important to know what it does and what you are missing out when its gone.
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