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 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 76
Ever spend a night in Detroit?Page 3 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
For you to pretend like there isn't a crime problem in Detroit is laughable

I was just wondering... Is English your first language...? Because if it isn't, you have failed the "assimilation test" all you right wing-nuts are always on about...

How in the name of education and literacy you ever managed to get...

For you to pretend like there isn't a crime problem in Detroit is laughable

from...

"But, I realize that isn't 'today'... No, unfortunately, that was back in the '80's to '90s mainly, when Detroit's crime rate was considerably higher than now... You know, in the days of the "Murder City" word-play pun, when the murder rate was 50% higher than it is now and the Detroit core had one of the highest crime rates in the nation...

I know 'today' is different... The murder rate is a fraction of what it was back in the '80s/'90s and the Detroit core now has one of the lowest crime rates in the state and country... and I really SHOULD be acting like a cringing, fearful little boy just like the right wing-nuts, but I just can't seem to find the energy for that... Must be an age thing..."

... is even MORE mind-boggling and mysterious than "a number of..." becoming "just a few..."

Seriously, they do have literacy courses for adults... You are aware of that, right...?

*shakes head as it becomes clear that the failure of American education dates back as far as the '50s and '60s in some locales*
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 77
view profile
History
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 1:34:41 PM

when Detroit's crime rate was considerably higher than now... You know, in the days of the "Murder City" word-play pun, when the murder rate was 50% higher than it is now


http://www.freep.com/article/20121228/NEWS01/312280175/Detroit-s-homicide-rate-nears-highest-in-2-decades

Not according to this article from the Detroit Free Press published in December, 2012. There is a graph on left side about half way down the page showing homicide rates per 100,000 going back to the 60's. Are you referring to a period previous to that?

With Detroit filing bankruptcy, it would ludicrous to state that emergency services haven't been affected. But the OP was obviously an extreme exaggeration.

Interesting article about the population decline published by Time over 2 years ago:
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/24/vanishing-city-the-story-behind-detroit%E2%80%99s-shocking-population-decline/

But there is another story behind these numbers. Some of Detroit’s population loss in the last decade can be attributed to the exodus of middle-class blacks unwilling to subject their children to schools that too often lack the audacity to expect them to succeed, and crime in the relatively affluent neighborhoods that remain. It’s not just Detroit. A similar black middle-class exodus is occurring in in Chicago, Washington, Atlanta and New Orleans



it’s unclear what will happen to Detroit’s nearly 140 square miles — enough to fit Boston, San Francisco and Manhattan with room to spare — that now lie largely vacant.



Clearly, I don't know what you mean by "Detroit core" based on everything I've read lately. Happen to have a cite to support this statement?

Detroit core now has one of the lowest crime rates in the state and country
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 79
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 2:21:59 PM

Are you referring to a period previous to that?

I was referring to the mid '80s to early '90s... Yes, I mistyped 'rate' instead of 'numbers'... As in 'the murder numbers were...' and, as you can see from your own graph the peak murder numbers for that period are almost twice today's numbers (686 in '87 to ~375 for '12)... I will correct the percent I used though to be fair as the 'rate' was only ~20% higher (63.5 in '87 to 53 in '12) though the numbers were almost double...

Either way, it doesn't change the validity of my contention that Detroit was MUCH MORE dangerous in the '80s/'90s than it is today... By virtually any measure...

Clearly, I don't know what you mean by "Detroit core" based on everything I've read lately. Happen to have a cite to support this statement?

Yes, I do...

The crime facing Detroit is not insurmountable and it's untruthful to say that it's citywide.
....
There is a fact that is missing in this crime talk. Beyond this, the crime rate in downtown Detroit is 37-percent less than the national average.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-a-brown/detroit-police-restructuring_b_1533759.html
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 80
view profile
History
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 4:16:43 PM
^^^
Thank you for the clarification.

In all fairness, the referenced source is written by Gary Brown who is President pro tem of the Detroit City Council from May, 2012. I don't mean to imply that the information isn't accurate, but to state that the source is a blog is simply factual. There is a very interesting link on the section you are quoting...

the crime rate in downtown Detroit is 37-percent less than the national average


It links to a DPD Diagnostic document showing a lot of charts about police efficiency & response as compared to other cities. I didn't see any supporting reference for his statement regarding the crime rate in downtown.

Regardless, it was an interesting link contained within the blog.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 82
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 5:42:38 PM

So? THAT in and of itself proves nothing...

Actually, it proves EXACTLY what I was saying... The crime stats are BETTER now than they were in the '80s and '90s... In short, Detroit is SAFER from a crime stats point-of-view than it was 20-30 years ago...

If it was safe enough for me to wander around in the middle of the night and early morning and only be "victimized" by prostitutes trying to rustle up some business, anyone carrying on about how "scary" Detroit is TODAY is behaving like a cringing, fearful little boy...

Get a clue....... as we used to say when I played sports......... Pump up, then pop off. So, when you take into consideration the current population of Detroit, the fact that most of it is not even habitated, and the part that is habitated is policed properly, yeah, crime may be down.......... but only in DOWNTOWN.

Umm... No... Crime is down OVERALL, not just in downtown (though that is where the least crime is), compared to what Detroit used to be... In short, crime is lower now than it was 20 yrs ago... The numbers and the history PROVE it...

You can jump through all the hoops you like to avoid admitting that so many right wing-nuts act like cringing, fearful little boys when the discussion starts to relate to "certain people"... It isn't going to change the reality...
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 84
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 7:12:12 PM

Actually, it proves EXACTLY what I was saying... The crime stats are BETTER now than they were in the '80s and '90s... In short, Detroit is SAFER from a crime stats point-of-view than it was 20-30 years ago...

If it was safe enough for me to wander around in the middle of the night and early morning and only be "victimized" by prostitutes trying to rustle up some business, anyone carrying on about how "scary" Detroit is TODAY is behaving like a cringing, fearful little boy...


Ok,25-30 years ago you could do that.You're older now,remember?Predators will also recognize you as being older.Don't be stupid enough to try this again.Parts of Toronto I wouldn't try this either.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 85
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 7:18:52 PM

I have no idea what part of Detroit that you wandered through, and frankly I would be surprised if you did either

Well, given that I have ALREADY said "what part", your having "no idea" and your "surprise" speak volumes... You would likely be "surprised" by my adventures in places like NYC and DC as well... However, your "surprise" says more about you than it does me... What can I say, I'm an American, I don't act like a cringing, fearful little boy for anybody...

For anyone to hold the position that you do is beyond silly

Do you mean it is "silly" to believe that lower crime rates mean less crime...? Really...? Do you even know what the word "rate" refers to and how it is measured...?

Do you mean it is "silly" to believe that "less crime" means "safer than more crime"...? Really...?

And acting like a cringing, fearful little boy would be less "silly"...?

You can ACTUALLY suggest those things with a straight face and mean it...?!? I think we have found a poster boy for our "education in crisis" campaign...

things change, and not always for the better

Well, most people I know usually believe that "less crime" and "lower crime rates" is "better" than "more crime" and "higher crime rates"... But they actually know what words like "more", "less" and "better" mean... And they typically don't "jump" when they see their own shadows...
 theritefoot
Joined: 3/30/2013
Msg: 86
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 8:54:23 PM
My aunt had a mansion near Detroit, a gorgeous old mansion that was once worth big money. Well, my uncle died and my aunt tried to sell that house....and tried to sell that house.....and kept reducing the price again and again....until finally about four years later she sold it for a pittance. I'm saying, she got almost NOTHING for that house.

Detroit is a DISASTER.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 88
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/23/2013 10:17:13 PM
"They seem all too pleased about this unfortunate chapter in the story of America. "

You've never been married, have you Skooch? It sucks when things go wrong, but when your spouse was trying to warn you that this was going to happen, then it sucks that much worse.
"I TOLD you this would happen, and did you listen to me? NO !!!"

Please remember that this "unfortunate chapter " took 50 years to occur. That's one hell of a slow-motion train wreck. You would think that someone could have put the brakes on.
Fifty years is a lot of time, Skooch.

Maybe the Emperor will just "buy" the city of Detroit and give it over to the good loyal unions.
That's what I call "progress." Call up Bernanke, print up some Obamabux, write the check.
What's the big deal? Business as usual, circa 2013.
 enigoM
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 90
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 5:44:23 AM

A dwindling population -- 706,585 people in 2011, according to the U.S. Census estimate -- and the rise in homicides combined to make Detroit’s murder rate among the highest in the nation, Detroit Mayor Dave Bing and Police Chief Chester Logan announced at a press conference.


Not really sure where Joe gets his data (just read the post where you cited your source a huffpo article) interesting that it says Downtown crime, unfortunately there is more to a city than downtown...


Either way, it doesn't change the validity of my contention that Detroit was MUCH MORE dangerous in the '80s/'90s than it is today... By virtually any measure...


Detroit
Crime rates (2011)
Crime type Rate*
Homicide: 48.2
Forcible rape: 59.8
Robbery: 695.6
Aggravated assault: 1,333.6
Violent crime: 2,137.4
Burglary: 2,242.4
Larceny-theft: 2,307.2
Motor vehicle theft: 1,593.8
Arson: 134.1
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 91
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 8:12:14 AM
"Do you know of other cities that will being filing bankrupcy in the next fifty years? Your future telling skills could be useful for city planners."

Financial planners are not stupid, they go to school and they know that they have to balance their books. The problem is up the ladder, when the managers, supervisors, and elected officials get that data and make decisions, many of which that are NOT in the best interests of constituents.
When things are good, city and state planners say "Gee, we can build those roads, parks, Gov't buildings, or even a high-speed train to nowhere" and they allocate funds and get the ball rolling. But what happens if the money slows down in a few years? Now we are stuck with those deals , and we can't get out of them, Gov'ts lack the flexibility to cope with those reversals.
50 years is a long time, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if plenty more BK's are announced, cities, counties AND states,
Also, it's interesting that when Detroit announced their BK, Wall Street didn't even flinch. Why? Because those people saw it coming long ago.

http://www.governing.com/news/state/sl-officials-propose-ways-to-detect-cities-on-fical-brink.html
State Officials Propose Ways to Detect Cities' Fiscal Troubles Before They Worsen

Related Articles

Experts: States Should Have More Active Role Aiding Distressed Municipalities
Is Bankruptcy a Viable Tool for Struggling Cities?
Bankrupt Cities, Municipalities List and Map
Michigan Kills Controversial Emergency Manager Law

By Stephen C. Fehr

Top finance officials in California and New York are proposing closer state-level scrutiny of local government budgets to help prevent the distress that has plagued many cities, towns and counties over the last few years.

California Treasurer Bill Lockyer says he wants the state to develop a warning system in which local government finances would be monitored and cities in fiscal trouble identified. New York Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli says he intends to initiate a scoring technique to categorize cities under the most strain. In this way, DiNapoli says, “local officials and the public would have sufficient time to discuss options for turning things around.”

The separate calls for scrutiny from two influential big-state elected officials reflect a growing sense in the financial community that states cannot stand by as some of their cities struggle to stay solvent. Local governments have been slow to emerge from the recession because of a gradually worsening decline in property tax revenue.

California and New York cities have been hit especially hard by the downturn. The California communities of San Bernardino, Stockton and Mammoth Lakes filed for bankruptcy protection last summer and nine other California cities have declared financial emergencies in the last few years. DiNapoli released a report in September saying that spending had increased by $2.7 billion in 61 New York cities since 1980 (excluding New York City), but revenues went up only $2.1 billion. Cities are required to balance their budgets.
(excerpted)
 enigoM
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 92
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 8:22:31 AM

"Do you know of other cities that will being filing bankrupcy in the next fifty years?
Pretty much all the cities that implemented Liberal policies and increased the size of public employee sector and their benefits and pensions are at risk ..
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 94
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 11:33:19 AM
"So now pointing out a few facts is showing a lack of patriotism"

It's like a Hollywood movie set. From far away you see a big glamorous modern city, but upon closer inspection it's just an empty shell.
It calls up the question "Why do cities exist?"
Maybe Joe can answer that question for us.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 95
view profile
History
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 11:46:43 AM
Yes ... back in the late 60's. My boyfriend was from Detroit and he took me home with him to visit. (He was stationed at a military base just outside of Columbus and I was in the USO.)

I think my parents took us there when I was a child ... but I don't recall that we stayed over night.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 96
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 1:13:31 PM

Either way, it doesn't change the validity of my contention that Detroit was MUCH MORE dangerous in the '80s/'90s than it is today... By virtually any measure...



Detroit
Crime rates (2011)
Homicide: 48.2
Forcible rape: 59.8
Robbery: 695.6
Aggravated assault: 1,333.6
Violent crime: 2,137.4
Burglary: 2,242.4
Larceny-theft: 2,307.2
Motor vehicle theft: 1,593.8
Arson: 134.1

I see we have a "co-poster boy" for our "education in crisis" campaign... I see you've posted the crime stats for 2011... Good boy...

Now, I have just one question... How do you figure that proves me wrong...? That doesn't say ONE word about crime in the '80s/90s...

All you have proven is that you don't know how to refute a point (of course we already knew this but thanks for the confirmation)...
Here is just a small sampling for comparison:

homicide, 62.8 (1987)
forcible rape, 143.0 (1985)
robbery, 1,537.6 (1985)
burglary, 3,703.1 (1985)

You right wing-nuts REALLY enjoy making yourselves look foolish while proving me right, don't you...? You must, you do it all the time, of your own accord...

Not really sure where Joe gets his data (just read the post where you cited your source a huffpo article) interesting that it says Downtown crime, unfortunately there is more to a city than downtown...

Well, apparently from a place that is beyond your cognitive grasp... And yes, it is unfortunate, for you, that there is "more to a city"...

Now, would you like to try cramming your other foot into your mouth as well...? I would have thought, by now, you would have realized that I am the "paper bag" that you can't argue your way out of... you are out of your league...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 98
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 2:06:26 PM

BUT, first lets look at why the numbers are the way they are..................... The numbers are due to the shrinking population........... GET IT??

Ummm... Gee, where to begin... Oh, I know... Rates are INDEPENDANT of population changes, THAT is why they use them...

If Detroit were "less safe" today than the '80s/'90s, the RATES WOULD STILL BE HIGHER... Even if we accept that Detroit is safer because of population decrease that doesn't change the point... Detroit is STILL SAFER than it used to be... Which means: all those right wing-nuts carrying on are just acting like a bunch of cringing, fearful little boys... Not very "American" of them in my view...

I can see it now......... There is joe, in a tent, in one of the razed parts of Detroit, a soft glow from his Coleman lantern coming from the outside of the tent, a soft hissing noise from his Coleman camp stove as he heats his dinner, wondering why he can't get cell service...

And... I would still be more safe than before... You're point is...?
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 99
view profile
History
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 2:21:24 PM

And... I would still be more safe than before


Well that may be true statistically...but is there anyone left to hear you scream for help? And how long will it take for one of their 12 policemen to respond?

Obviously, I'm exagerrating. But it is food for thought. Detroit is ranked as the 2nd most dangerous city in America. Flint, Michigan beat them out for #1.

I chose the Huff-Po link since that seems to be one of your preferred sources.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/most-dangerous-cities-in-america_n_3478091.html
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 100
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 2:44:00 PM
Obviously, I'm exagerrating. But it is food for thought. Detroit is ranked as the 2nd most dangerous city in America. Flint, Michigan beat them out for #1.

Uh-huh... But that STILL doesn't change the basic premise... Many Americans, particularly the right wing-nuts, have an irrational perspective regarding crime rates... A perspective that leads them to acting like cringing, fearful little boys...

I will illustrate this for you... Let's take Detroit's overall 'violent crime rate' as our example (because it is "high")... Even at a rate of 2,137.4, your chances of being a victim are still a piddling 2.1374%... That means your chances of NOT being a victim are ~98%... Again, ~98% chance of NOT being a victim of violent crime...

So many Americans seem to be emotionally incapable of taking rational perspectives about these things... And if the right wing-nut posters on this site (and the internet in general) are any measure of this then it seems that ~25-30% of Americans are deathly afraid of 35-40% (70-75% if you include white liberals) of their fellow Americans... What does THAT tell you...?
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 102
view profile
History
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 2:57:29 PM
Mungojoe

Tells me you should go pitch that tent in a half abandoned neighbourhood.

The tens of thousands on Americans murdered, raped, assaulted will be pleased to know it is not likely to happen again to them...then again, the murdered won't care. It sure isn't accepted in my society that a couple percent of the population are victims of violence...every victim has value and is not just a stat. 'Gee, too bad your daughter was raped...then again, she was only the second one in her high school this year....not so bad'.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 103
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 3:14:45 PM
Fortunately, your view of America and Americans carries about as much weight as my dogs flatulence......... and Americans should give it about as much weight.

And, UNFORTUNATELY, this means that 1/4 to 1/3 of Americans will continue to harbour an irrational fear of a majority of their OWN countrymen and continue to live their lives like cringing, fearful little boys... I hope your "bunker" at least has cable service...

The tens of thousands on Americans murdered, raped, assaulted will be pleased to know it is not likely to happen again to them...then again, the murdered won't care. It sure isn't accepted in my society that a couple percent of the population are victims of violence...every victim has value and is not just a stat. 'Gee, too bad your daughter was raped...then again, she was only the second one in her high school this year....not so bad'.

I can see that you are not any more rational about the topic than the American right wing-nuts...

How you ever got that from what I wrote is a mystery... an irrational disconnection from the reality of what I wrote without any basis in fact...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 105
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 4:48:39 PM
Let me simplify it as much as possible for you, MJ..... while you may be OK with two people out of one hundred being the victum of violent crime, he/she is not.

You see... This is why I asked you if English was your first language... and this is why I pointed out that adult literacy training is available...

How you EVER read that in what I wrote really does boggle the mind... Not once in this thread have I EVER stated or even implied my beliefs regarding crime prevention, justice for victims or punishment of crimes... Not one word, not one hint... ALL I ever mentioned was the irrationality of acting like cringing, fearful little boys in the face of extremely improbable events...

The mere fact that you did read that into it only further bolsters my description of the pattern of perception and thought among the right wing-nuts as irrational in relation to the actual risk, as the behaviour of cringing, fearful little boys (in case you weren't aware that's typically what fearful little boys do, act irrationally... irrationality and fear are hand-in-glove and it doesn't matter which comes first)...

I can't imagine what it must be like to live one's life in such irrational fear... In abject fear of almost half of your own countrymen (almost three quarters for some) because of an over-blown perception of improbable events... (warning: movie quote) "It must be so damn exhausting being you"...

Talk is cheap, you have been proven wrong so many ways, that any further discussion is folly.

ROFLMAO

Not ONE person has yet proven that I was wrong about Detroit having MORE crime and being MORE dangerous in the '80s/'90s than now... not one person has been able to disprove that "less crime" means "more safe from crime"...

However, I do agree with you about the "folly" part... A disproportional fear of an improbable event can't be fixed on an internet forum (the wing-nut arguments about Islam have shown that)... In other words, you aren't likely to calm the cringing, fearful little boy with just a note in his lunchbox...
 Madailein
Joined: 6/9/2012
Msg: 106
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 6:07:45 PM
Detroit…excellent example of, “The parasites devouring the host”.

What happens when government tells private industry who they must hire?

Why not then take your business to places where the risk taker hires whom he deems most productive for his company?

Outsourcing by U.S. successful companies, is the direct result of government interference with private industry.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 107
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 7:50:25 PM
So mungojoe cruised at midnight in a hozone 30 years ago.Now he's a tough guy who fears no evil.Do you really think you could walk your white azz through those neighborhoods unscathed today at midnight?30 years ago cabbies in Toronto wouldn't go to Jane and Finch after dark.Do you think they knew something?Possibly you need more education....of the real world kind.
 theritefoot
Joined: 3/30/2013
Msg: 110
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 9:02:15 PM
Yeah, the people who've never had any experience with diversity talk all tough and poopoo
crime rates and claim that it's right wing insanity.
Yeah. Go and work in those areas tough guy. I did it for 25 years.
Shit happens on a daily basis that would would make most people crap their pants.
A routine stop at a gas station could cost you your life.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 111
view profile
History
Ever spend a night in Detroit?
Posted: 7/24/2013 9:17:41 PM
Re Detroit.

Perhaps the issue is that it shouldn't die a slow death but that it had its years in the sun and that it no longer has a purpose as a major US city. The Detroit based auto industry has been artificially propped up. There is unlikely to be much future investment...that will go to Tennessee, the Carolina's, etc. Bankruptcy is just a reality check. Let 'Detroit' pass on with dignity...off life support and the surrounding more viable communities may come more into their own. St Louis is in a similar position...a great history but no real reason to be a major urban center into the rest of this century.
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