Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Abortions soon to become illegal again [Locked - Topic Hijacked]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 226
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal againPage 10 of 63    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
you know that's an interesting twist,....there yynot,...

what about all those frozen and fertilized embrios,..that are simply flushed every day,...down the sink,....literally??????

do they quallify as abortions?????????? they are fertilized????,...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 227
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/7/2006 11:52:43 AM
Why are they being flushed down the toilet? Where else do they go? Rent a womb?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

actually they could go to stem cell research but,..that then would serve a better good,....

and BTW,..I said sink,...not toilet,....
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 228
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/7/2006 12:10:09 PM
SORRY Buffalothritythree But I mis-read a forum rule... I stand corrected only because someone took the time to enlighten me via a message THANKS to them
************************************************

yynot...
It has nada to do with this thread... Roe vs Wade ...
I'll glady send you a message on my thoughts...
That is a UK issue and not one involving this thread...
GOD how I'd like to respond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 229
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/7/2006 1:43:18 PM
Jen I meant to answer your...

Yeah, it's called a baby and they cost way more than birth control pills. I agree with you it doesn't make any sense at all. The only way my insurance covers BC pills is if they receive a written letter from a physician stating that its use is for medical purposes only i.e. controlling the menstrual cycle and symtoms of PMS ect. otherwise it's not covered.


I was leaning more towards if they supply BC can they somehow be liable in some way besides the obvious (baby)... Can they be monetarily liable by a suit brought on by the woman who is now pregnant?

Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 230
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/8/2006 4:58:07 AM
Nothing sick about the truth... hmnmnmn
It is sick to hide the truth and not become informed from top to bottom on any issue...


Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 231
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/8/2006 5:54:24 AM
NO NO Babs... I gotta run but...
I am not refering to the scream just abortion procedures in general... Its good to know about abortion and I think there are enough women who choose not to abort after becoming educated on abortion and other areas like adoption and such that it is well worth the effort...
Gotta run...
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 232
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/8/2006 1:18:51 PM
That is the best you can do pogojeejo?
Guess so... cause that is all you posted...
For your sake I am glad that your Mother and Father decided to have at least one child and agreed too, also that your Mother did not take it upon herself to abort you, no matter your Father wanted...
You can concider yourself blessed and more so then the ones who had no say...

Have a nice day
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 233
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/8/2006 5:09:49 PM
no good on refuting Silent Scream.

Fetal pain by 8 weeks?

By this age the structures are present. What is needed is ( nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that are present at 8 weeks.

The pain impulse goes to the thalamus. It sends a signal down the motor nerves to pull away from the hurt.

Give an example.

Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away.

Try sticking an 8 week old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away.

A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus.

Volman & Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels,"
British Med.Journal, Jan. 26,1980, pp. 233-234.

O.K., that is activity that can be observed, but is there other evidence of pain? After all, the fetal baby can’t tell us he hurts.

Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured.

Mountcastle, MedicalPhysiology, St.Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427

"Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain."

S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development
of the Brain C. Thomas Pub.,1980

Give me more proof.

In 1984 President Reagan said: "When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing."

President Ronald Reagan to National Religious Broadcasters,
New York Times,Jan. 31, 1984

This provoked a public reaction from pro-abortion circles and a response from an auspicious group of professors, including pain specialists and two past presidents of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

They strongly backed Mr. Reagan and produced substantial of their letter (2/13/84) to him included:

"Real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG(electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late SirWilliam Lily — the father of fetology."

We state categorically that no finding of modern fetology invalidates the remarkable conclusion drawn after a lifetime of research by the late ProfessorArnold Gesell of Yale University. In The Embryology of Behavior:The Beginnings of the Human Mind (1945,Harper Bros.), Dr. Gesell wrote, "and so by the close of the first trimester the fetus is a sentient, moving being. We need not speculate as to the nature of his psychic attributes, but we may assert that the organization of hispsychosomatic self is well under way."

Mr. President, in drawing attention to the capability of the human fetus to feel pain, you stand on firmly established ground.

Willke, J & B, Abortion:Questions & Answers,
Hayes, 1991, Chpt. 10

What of The Silent Scream?

A Real time ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12-week suction abortion is commercially available Silent Scream,narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title(available from American Portrait Films, P.O. Box 19266, Cleveland, OH 44119,216-531-8600). Proabortionists have attempted to discredit this film. A well documented paper refuting their charges is available from National , 419 7th St. NW, Washington, DC 20004,
A short, 10-minute video showing the testimony of the doctor who did the abortion in Silent Scream definitely debunks any criticism of Silent Scream’s accuracy. The Answer, Bernadel, Inc., P.O. Box 1897, Old Chelsea Station, New York,NY, 10011.

Pain? What of just comfort?

"One of the most uncomfortable ledges that the unborn can encounter is his mother’s backbone. If he happens to be lying so that his own backbone is across hers [when the mother lies on her back], the unborn will wiggle around until he can get away from this highly disagreeable position."

M. Liley & B. Day, Modern Motherhood,
Random House, 1969, p. 42

But isn’t pain mostly psychological?

There is also organic, or physiological pain which elicits a neurological response to pain.

P. Lubeskind, "Psychology & Physiology of Pain,"
Amer. Review Psychology, vol.28, 1977, p. 42

But early on there is no cerebral cortex for thinking, therefore no pain?

The cortex isn’t needed to feel pain. The thalamus is needed and (see above) is functioning at 8 weeks. Even complete removal of the cortex does not eliminate the sensation of pain. "Indeed there seems to be little evidence that pain information reaches the sensory cortex."

Patton et al., Intro. to Basic Neurology,
W. B. Saunders Co. 1976, p. 178

How about during an abortion?

This really hit the fan during the 1996 debate in the U.S. Congress over a law to ban partial birth abortions. Pro-abortionists had claimed that the anaesthetic had already killed the fetal baby. Top officials of the U.S. Society for Obstetric Anaesthesia & Perinatology vigorously denied this explaining that usual anaesthesia did not harm the baby.

D. Gianelli, Anaesthesiologists Question Claims in
Abortion Debate, Am. Med.News, Jan. 1, ’96

This brought the issue of fetal pain into the news, and testimony was given to the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the U.S. House of Representatives.

"The fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain. Without doubt a partial birth abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant.

R. White, Dir. Neurosurgery & Brain Research, Case Western Univ.

Also, "Far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain" ...that babies under 30 weeks have a"newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age."

P. Ranalli, Neuro. Dept., Univ. of Toronto

Give me more research data.

Data in the British Medical Journal, Lancet, gave solid confirmation of such pain. It is known that the fetal umbilical cord has no pain receptors such as the rest of the fetal body. Accordingly, they tested fetal hormone stress response comparing puncturing of the abdomen and of the cord.

They observed "the fetus reacts to intra hepatic (liver) needling with vigorous body and breathing movements, but not to cord needling. The levels of these hormones did not vary with fetal age."

M. Fisk,et al., Fetal Plasma Cortisol and Bendorphin Response
to Intrauterine Needling, Lancet, Vol. 344, July 9, 1994, Pg. 77

Another excellent British study commented on this: "It cannot be comfortable for the fetus to have a scalp electrode implanted on his skin, to have blood taken from the scalp or to suffer the skull compression that may occur even with spontaneous delivery. It is hardly surprising that infants delivered by difficult forceps extraction act asif they have a severe headache."

Valman& Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels,"
British Med. Jour., Jan. 26, 1980
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 234
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/8/2006 5:41:00 PM
You just don't seem to get it....but thats OK. Its HER WOMB silly boy, understand? not my womb and not your womb either, could be a case of Womb envy? sure sounds like it. I also think it not appropriate to shame people who happen to own "one of dem dar wombs" Buy the way you could get some hormone therapy, fake shmebs and a whole bunch of hair removal and maybe just maybe you might have just a smidge of undestanding what women are about.


I guess you can express yourself with some BIG words CONGRATS

..a worm eh? Nice to see someone speaking at the level of intel

When someone wants to have an adult conversation let the rest of us know

BTW I have 3 adopted children TYVM thus you have not engrossed yourself in this thread otherwise you would already know that....
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 235
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/8/2006 5:44:24 PM
raver,...raver,...raver,.....

do you remeber what you felt as a fetus?????,...

does the good doctor whom you quote so vehemently??????

if only either of you ever had any first hand recollection,....
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another excellent British study commented on this: "It cannot be comfortable for the fetus to have a scalp electrode implanted on his skin, to have blood taken from the scalp or to suffer the skull compression that may occur even with spontaneous delivery. It is hardly surprising that infants delivered by difficult forceps extraction act asif they have a severe headache."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
where to begin,...OK,...first of all I am a lot older than you and guess what in all that time,...giving blood from wherever,...and in me they sometimes have to take it from my feet,...(shitty veigns),...it never feels good,...so ya I'm bettin' babies don't feel great either as for the whole delivery thing but nature is kind of interesting,...

there is a reason none of us to date,..can remember actually being born,....no matter how that came about,...and they don't use forceps because they love it,..in fact they will try to avoid it if possible,...but we can't all get born by cutting mom's belly open far enough,..and guess what else,....

sometime,..as was the case with my last delivery,...via section,..they still have to use forceps,..go figure,...but true,...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and while you are so intent on the whole pain thing,....
I was my husbands assistant for a number of years,...
we had a freestanding,...gastroenterology clinic,...

That's where they shove a tube down your throat,..or the other end and have a look see around,...etc,...for this proceedure,..patients are given a drug called >>>VERSED >>>

you can look it up,...This particular drug is know as a hypnotic agent,...which means

the patient thinks they havce gone to sleep and wake up after it all over,...wrongo,...

what happens is pretty much the same actually as a date rape drug,....it messes with your short term memory,...and therefore you still during the proceedure feel pain,...shout out,....squirm whatever,...and even though it was my job to hold them down and still,....

I heard them cry,..shout,..etc,...so,...did they still have pain,..even though they have no memory of having experienced it and usually wake up smiling???hum???

answer is,....who cares,....they don't remember,...they wake up smiling,..usually asking for more in fact,...(they don't get it but),....pain is a very interesting thing,....

how about the time I had a toothache to die from ,....in a tooth that was long gone,...

try and get relief from that BTW,...not easy,....you really need to understand what you are talking about to really appreciate what you are in fact saying,....

you have to have memory neurons to register pain,....and if they are not fully developed yet,...guess what?,...that's right,...no one can say,....certainly not with any credibility,....

nature is a lot better able to know what we can handle,....and you would be surprised,....just how much pain you can adjust to ,...become unaware of even,....as adults,....

Pain in fact is one of the least understood medical conditions,....and,....

it is very different in every single person,...as is each person's particular sensitivity,....
some folks die with a sore throat,...but broken bones,..no problem,....

while others are the reverse,....this is one subject I have had a lot of first hand experience in over the last half a century as well as adminestering to the sick and dying,....
I also worked a lot of paliative care,....

hope you don't ever learn the way I did,.....
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 236
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/8/2006 6:16:23 PM
Tell me widdletezer what is the answer and is there a middle ground we all can live with?
Instead of this continued same ol' argument where do we go from here?
I am for the man and fetus and their rights in this equation and you are for the women's right... Now if there is no middle ground, as a friend of mine once said, we'll be leaving the decisions to some stuffed shirts up on the hill (or to that affect)...
I won't go on and on with what I have already posted, your questions have already been answered by me here more then once... Getting redundant to say the least...
 caffeine7
Joined: 12/30/2004
Msg: 237
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 6:41:28 AM

100,000 illegal abortions is considered by experts to be an underestimation. Although there are no accurate data on the number of illegal abortions prior to its legal performance, Dr. Christopher Tietze, a demographer who was known worldwide for the scientific quality of his work, estimated that in 1963, the numbers ranged between 200,000 and 1,200,000. It is generally believed that the figure was closer to the higher level, and has risen little since abortion was legalized (currently about 1,500,000). In 1963, only those botched abortions having serious complications requiring hospitalization could be counted. Without a legal requirement for reporting, there are no accurate estimations as to what percentage of the degrading, dangerous, illegal abortions was successful without such complications.


I wonder if anyone has ever calculated what the population of the US (or Canada) would have been if this was not the case (assuming that these babies would have their own babies). I bet a good case could be made for abortion preventing major overpopulation problems in the world. We have an overpopulation problem as it is.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 238
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 6:46:19 AM
Not me Babs...

I do not make my mind up on a stance of any issue without referring to the experts. Emotions aside, I deal in fact, not hyperbole.

So called experts have been proved wrong on too many occasions for me to put all my apples in one basket...
Experts say we evolved from apes, or a form of. I disagree...
I believe we are here because of divine intervention... Experts on both sides of the issue argue their point...
Which is my point exactly we take the information provided us by various sources and come to our own conclusion, one that is uniquely our own...
I believe human life starts at conception, that is the start of human life as I believe it to begin...
Others believe not...
Some are experts some are not...

Have a nice day
 caffeine7
Joined: 12/30/2004
Msg: 239
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 6:49:42 AM
^^ I don't believe that abortions should be forced on anyone. But at the same time I wonder what else could have been done in China to prevent population growth. The planet CANNOT sustain indefinite numbers of people. I think that will become obvious soon.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 240
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 6:54:20 AM

I wonder if anyone has ever calculated what the population of the US (or Canada) would have been if this was not the case (assuming that these babies would have their own babies). I bet a good case could be made for abortion preventing major overpopulation problems in the world. We have an overpopulation problem as it is.

hmnmnm
Same case could be made for diseases we have solved like chicken pox, flu shots, the invention of antibiotics and what if we solve cancer, heart disease and others? Should we, for the sake of over population, stop trying to eradicated diseases that can end lives?
I dare say not

Babs...
On China I agree 100% !!!!!!

Have a nice day
 caffeine7
Joined: 12/30/2004
Msg: 241
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 7:06:02 AM

Should we, for the sake of over population, stop trying to eradicated diseases that can end lives?


Absolutely not. I think we want to try to end pain and suffering for those who are victims of it. I believe we should take care of humans and the planet. I really hope that mother nature (or whatever you want to call it) does not have to take things into her/its own hands.
 DeagleNINja
Joined: 9/10/2005
Msg: 242
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:13:58 AM
Babylonia.....sheesh quit using logic, it's not fair!
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 243
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:31:04 AM
Logic says that lif ein the womb is a human bieng and deserves to be protected.

Logic says both parties shoudl take the proper precuations durign sex to avoid an unwanted pregancy and if they don't then they should get ready to be parents.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 244
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 3:56:02 PM
... you know thats right certified male
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 245
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 4:14:13 PM

Logic also says.......this is far from a perfect world.


Killing the msot defenseless won't make it perfect either.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 246
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 4:41:38 PM

Making prisoners out of teens and young women will only create a criminal state.


That would only happen if they break the law...
Which at this time they are not
I hope it does not go back to breaking laws and we can work something out
that will keep both sides happy

Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 247
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/9/2006 6:52:05 PM

- Corporate responsibility to employees
They are made rich by their employees, and they should be made to be good corporate citizens and support parents-to-be with supplemental income during parental/maternal leave. Some couples choose not to have children because the 55% (in Canada) EI benefit for new parents on leave will not pay the bills. Some companies and unions top-off this 55%, giving the caregiving parent a 100% pay even though they are at home. Why not encourage this? Afterall, it is us who are creating the workforce of the future!

I agree but with a couple changes... First child you rec'v 100% second maybe 90%... or something that would not allow abuse of the system... Larger families do tax the medical liabilities available...


More aggressive tactics used to bring deadbead parents to justice. It is a societal concern and should not be solely the responsibility of the custodial parent in coming up with the money (that they don't have!) to enforce support payments to the children.

I just saw on our local news where a guy owed 50k in child support but was driving a Lexus ... I agree 100% get the deadbeats... But also make it easier for the non-custodial to lower their support when they lose jobs for any reason except being fired... I have a friend who lost his job when they moved and he was making very very good money but he has not and cannot find any two jobs that can match his pay from that one... and due to no fault of his own he falls behind and cannot catch-up... He is no deadbeat. So what haps is their are good parents paying the price for those that are not...


Mandated daycare. Ever wonder why the corporate world engages in its doublespeak? They do not help their employees with daycare, and this is the biggest problem with young children and their parents. Wouldn't it be nice to work for a company who had provisions for a company daycare? Wouldn't that help productivity? Consider it an insurance. Heck, if they are willing to co-pay for insurance for an employees family, why not have this part of it, and tax deductible for companies who participate?
- Virtual offices/work from home when available. Allowing an employee to manage their familial responsibilities in ways that maximize work productivity sometimes can include allowing them to work from home. My work does this. My co-worker works from home twice a week and still finishes all her work. She sends her children to school in the morning, works from home, and has all her work done by the time she needs to pick up her young kids from elementary school.

Both these can be lumped together... Why is it not done? Maybe the same reason oil companies here in the states can make record profits while the working family is cutting back just to make ends meet shows us that a profit is more important... The bottom line...
Instead of giving the BIG corps huge tax breaks we should tie in the above into the tax break.... Its a thought whose time is past...


Aggressive sex ed in schools. Remove the taboo from sex and instead treat it like we would in teaching our kids how to use a firearm. We wouldn't give our kids a loaded gun and tell them not to use it. We would not give it to them period. However, their young hormones are a kin to a loaded gun, and we can't take them away from our kids, and their ignorance is dangerous if we do not wise up and lose our puritan attitudes about teaching them the unabashed truth to sexual health and responsibility. This is not accomplished by fear mongering and absintence only education. We are sexual beings, period. From how we are conceived to how we identify with ourselves. There is no other option.

They are way too lax in sex education... I see hope because our generation, more open sex wise, is moving into areas of Govt that will make these changes... The generation before us was pretty taboo about sex education and even simply talking about it... My parents told me squat... I have already talked to my children and do from time to time... Nothing like repetition to keep something in a child's mind

You and I Babs have never really been that far apart on what the next steps need to be we just needed to get it out in the open

Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 248
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/10/2006 10:31:37 AM

Futhermore, if you tried to kill me, you'd be charged with attempted murder, if I didn't torture and kill you first.


hahahaa Why do I think this would be the outcome
 caffeine7
Joined: 12/30/2004
Msg: 249
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/10/2006 10:52:12 AM
http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060301/OPINION/603010384/1015

"The ancients knew about population control, a knowledge that we have lost or refuse to enforce".

"It seems that both the secular and religious leaders would rather see millions of unwanted children grow to die of starvation-related diseases or live a life of frustration and die of violence rather than be aborted as a minute embryo. It is of no satisfaction to know that we could eliminate much of this terrible suffering if we were as wise as the ancients".
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 250
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/10/2006 4:57:53 PM
If its 1 day or one hour after, is it illegal? What about one minute after? What if the doctor performing the abortion is somehow delayed because of the traffic? OMG!! then the mother is sooo screwed!!! 1 minute late and Pooof!!! the fetus is now aware of is existence! And it thinks: "HAHAHA! MFkers, i made it!!! you can't kill me now! I'VE GOT RIGHTS!!!!

I'd say that is carrying things a little over the top eh bro? I do not like abortion and have been pretty clear on that in this thread but if we are going to have adult conversations about the topic lets not get too theatrical it takes away from the importance of the discussion... Kind of gets hard to see what your trying to say or ask...

..and yes I too view life begins at conception and nobody can change what is my opinion because it is mine...


Have a nice day
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Abortions soon to become illegal again [Locked - Topic Hijacked]