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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Abortions soon to become illegal again [Locked - Topic Hijacked]      Home login  
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 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 276
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Abortions soon to become illegal againPage 12 of 63    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
The way things are right now is altogether unfair to men. We have none of the choice and all of the responsibility.
If they choose to have the baby, women are responsible for 9 months of pregnancy, childbirth, and rearing the child (which includes using her financial resources, too.)
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So just how do men have "all" the responsibility??????
absolutely,...I concurr,..shore66,...
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Eighteen years of financial woes and harassment. was his answer to you,..and this just prooves the point,....

18 years,....I don't know any mom,...(althouogh there might be a few out there)
at least any real mom,..who say's to her child,...

Here dear is your B-day card,...and after the party please move out and never ask another thing from me financially again,....

the person that thinks this way,..because of the fact that's where most support payments mandated by the courts end,...is coming from a one sided opinion,....easily recognized,...
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As I said before... ,if a woman chooses to engage in behavior that she knows can cause pregnancyshe should not have the right to kill just to end it. It is no different that my killing my brother to get out of something I dont want to do.
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****if a woman chooses to engage in behavior that she knows can cause pregnancyshe ****

are we kidding me here????????????????????

if a woman????????????

who in the heck is she,...choosing to have this with????????????? a goat,....
or a human male also capable of choices????????????????

GOOD GRIEF,....all these pages and <>>>>THIS<>>>is where we still are?????????????
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 277
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 10:41:27 AM

You are denying that the advocating against choice has nothing to do with the religious right?


Some is not all and you implied the entier emovment is religiously motivated.


I have labelled nobody as "pro" or "anti" anything (a weak argument needs BS rhetoric, I have no need for that ploy)


Actually you inferred just that. You tried to lump all pro-lifers into the catch all of zealots.


My argument is for a citizen's right to autonomy over their personal physiology. I have used words like: bigotry, intolerance, oppression, tyranny, (...supplying the definitions from the dictionary no less), to express stated reasons why I object to state approved oppression of it's citizen's physiological autonomy and the right to self-determination regarding it


Good arguemtn excpet what seld determination is the baby given?


I have not resorted to "argumentum ad hominum" by labelling anybody, aside from the use of pronouns.


yes you did by conveying the impression that those who opposed abortion were motivated bya desire for control adn opression over other peopel base don religious gorunds.


petitio principi fallacy, if you apply an arbitrary definition, to another's right to chose, and define the product of their own tissue (except for one cell)


The woman conteibutes 1 single cell same as the man every other cell is gentically unigure ot the baby not the woman. The Z/E/F is not aprt of her body it simply resides there for a time becuas eof actiosn the mother willingly took part in. (exlcuding rape and incest). Now ther eare times when the baby begins it's life in such a way as to seriously afec tthe mother shealth or threaten her life. These medically require dabortions are not birth control and that s a huge differance.
 Tin_Man
Joined: 1/23/2005
Msg: 278
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 11:25:44 AM
Marita....


Eighteen years of financial woes and harassment. was his answer to you,..and this just prooves the point,....

18 years,....I don't know any mom,...(althouogh there might be a few out there)
at least any real mom,..who say's to her child,...


Unfortunately, I have seen "parents" of both genders take the position. I have also seen many... both men and women... be the proper part of thier childrens life so long as health would allow.

I believe it was you (If I am wrong I apologize) that commented about the poverty that single mothers often endure... And I would not argue that many single mothers do have financial difficulties. As for Maintenance Enforcement, it is a program I believe should be abolished, and replaced by something that more accurately represents the intent if not the actions of the current program.

I do know there is a significant percentage that are the exception to what I am about to say... and I would like to say in advance that this does not apply to them.

There are a lot of women that choose to be the exclusive custodial parent... many of whom will fight long protracted battles for it... or just take the children and leave to other jurisdictions out of reach of the father. There are many who go so far as to prevent access to the father. Although it seems society is finally starting to change, were joint custody of the children is more common place, and real joint responsibility, we have a long way to go. Those who would deny the role of the father do so often at a significant cost... very measurable in dollars, but also in many other aspects... usually to the detriment of all involved, especially the child.



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As I said before... ,if a woman chooses to engage in behavior that she knows can cause pregnancyshe should not have the right to kill just to end it. It is no different that my killing my brother to get out of something I dont want to do.
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****if a woman chooses to engage in behavior that she knows can cause pregnancyshe ****

are we kidding me here????????????????????

if a woman????????????

who in the heck is she,...choosing to have this with????????????? a goat,....
or a human male also capable of choices????????????????


You have quoted me here... but I am not sure what your question actually is.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 279
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 11:48:30 AM
yes we have over the course of all these pages derived at a consencus that indeed there are good and bad,...mom's and dad's,...

However the preponderance of single adults raising nurturing,..rearing,...children are women,...

hands down not even a contest,..and many have no way of making ends meet,...without assistance,...

I took umbridge at the ludicrous comment you made,...

if a woman chooses,...this preposes that she and she alone is at fault regardless,...if the outcome should be unexpected,...

HOW THE HE!! MANY TIMES DOES SOMEONE HAVE TO SAY,...

2 bodies involed,...2 humans with a choice,...

it really is simple math folks,....

if 1 doesn't want kids,...and the other they aren't sure about,....

abstain,..or take controll of your part of the birth controll,....


the word CONTROL,..IS IN BIRTH CONTROL FOR A REASON,....

no one here is advocating any man's worth in a child's life,...
even those of us who 's children don't have it,....

as for Maintenance enforcement,...they basically rubber stamp checks,...that's it,...
they maintain nothing and enforce even less,...in this matter you and I agree completely,...
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But to say that abortion is used solely as birth control is downright rediculous if that is what you meant by it
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actually blue eyed,....I'm sad to say it isn't nearly as rare or as rediculous as you would think,...I have looked after girls in the hospital who do this all the time,...

and of the one thing all sides seem to agree completely with it's that this practice,...
HAS TO STOP,...someone suggested 3 abortions and mandatory tubal,...

hard to impliment that,..but my knee jerk reaction is that's about right,...

 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 280
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 12:10:34 PM
I try never to "should" on anybody,....but,...

the option is deffinately available to both parties,...

 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 281
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 12:11:13 PM
I try never to "should" on anybody,....but,...

the option is deffinately available to both parties,...

 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 282
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 12:50:41 PM

So you are saying that the 50% dna a man contributes is worth more weight than the risks assumed by the woman,


Nope not saying that at all. And will you please stop trying to equate my desire to see abortionstopped as some devious deisng to gian contorl over woman.

My stnace has been mad eperfectly clear over and over again. If you choose to engage in an adutl activity and a pregancy results that new perosan deserves to live. If you don't want a baby (both aprties) use birht control, contraception or look for other ways of sexual release. If you ar enot comftrable with exploring options for what ever reaosn refrian from engaging in sex (both parties) until you are willign to assume the responsability of what might occur if you engage in an activity that carries with it inherent risks.

Killing a child to get out of the responsability of what occured only beucase of an act you willingly took part in is sick. Jus tlike a man who fahters children and walks away. It's selfish greedy and shoudl be crimminal. if your not willing to be a parent don't engage ina ctivites where pregancy might result. Feeding babies to Moloch so you can enjoy carnal pleasure is a concept I cannot get my head around. I enjoy sex as much as anyone and posisbly more than some. Yet I go into it well aware of the risks involved. STD's, pregancy, emotional hang ups etc.

The fact that there are over 1 million unwanted pregancies every year in a antion of less than 300 million means there are milliosn of people who are not acting like adults.

Ladies, if you don't want a baby make sure his condom is in good condition and properly applied. And get on BC.

Men, if you don't want to pay child support use good comdems in the proper way. If and when they create a mens pill get on it.

It's really that simple 30 seconds of prevention can save a million lives a year.

Condoms and BC are free at most public health clinics so there is not even a financial burden to be borne by the parties.
 Michael93082
Joined: 3/9/2006
Msg: 283
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 2:53:02 PM
You know I never thought much about abortion rights until a friend of mine who is deeply against abortion who is in college is writing up a speech against abortion showed me some of the tactics they use to carry out abortions and some pictures of what the fetus looked like after performing the abortion. Below are some of the ways they carry out abortions.

1. Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)


2. This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.

3. This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.

Now for you people who are for abortion how in the hell if you are a human with any kind of a heart support such a decision by a woman or such a procedure practiced by a doctor?!?!?! I hope anyone who gets an abortion gets an infection from the procedure and dies slowly and painfully from the infection. And if your gonna say it is a womans right what about the right of that child?!?! Have you also thought that putting the baby up for adoption is an option??? Even if the kid is raised by the state for the next 18 years he still deserves a chance at life. I support abortion if the pregnancy is a threat to the womans life or if at least 3 doctors say the baby has very little chance of survival or if the child will be born in a vegatative state of severe disorder. But for you people who support abortion just because you dont want the child you people are wrong at every moral level there is.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 284
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 3:41:12 PM

ABSOLUTELY! The pro-choice movement has been advocating this ALL ALONG. PREVENTION first.


Ya the same way tobbacoo com[anies fund nn smoking programs and oil companies do research into green fuels. it's smoke and mirros the moeny is not in haidng out free condmes or teachign safe sex it's in the severla hudred dollars a pop abortions.


Simply? It just simply resides there as if it is getting all its nutrients from some otherwordly place? Why have you disconnected the fact that the woman completely supports and nourishes the fetus from beginning to end?


It's human bieng and dosn't deserve to be killed


It is not your role, nor is it mine, to judge what is selfish or greedy when we have not a wit of knowledge about what circumstances are present for those women.


Actually it is our right via civic duty (voting) to decide along wiht other voters what will and will not be tolerated in our repsective soceities (Canada and the USA)


What? Have you ever heard of Blood Libel? This is no different.


Nope the differnace here is babies are being killed.


As do those who are pro-choice. People who believe differently than you are not irresponsible or wanton in their sex lives


Getitgn pregant via lack of pre-planning and then killing a baby is pretty dammed iresponsable.
 Tin_Man
Joined: 1/23/2005
Msg: 285
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 4:49:34 PM

if a woman chooses,...this preposes that she and she alone is at fault regardless,...if the outcome should be unexpected,...

HOW THE HE!! MANY TIMES DOES SOMEONE HAVE TO SAY,...

2 bodies involed,...2 humans with a choice,...


Almost right there...

Yes, there are two people having sex. Yes, I agree, that if a pregnancy is not wanted then BOTH should be taking precautions to prevent a pregnancy, or abstain.

However, the man has no decision making power in the abortion question, and that is why my comment about a woman not killing the baby was made. And I stand by it.

Again, I do not dispute that it is often the woman that ends up raising the children on her own. However, this is often her second choice.... Assuming that her first choice would have been for her and the father to be together and live happily ever after. The father most times does not have the choice of keeping the child of the relationship, without at the very least a long protacted court battle. Where the child is raised is typically the mother's choice, rubber stamped by the court.
Do I think this should absolve the father of responsibility... NO. Do I think that responsibility ends at the age of majority, whatever it is were you live... NO. But I do think that if a woman is going to actively make a choice which prevents the father from being an equal part of that childs life, then she should not complain when she is actively shouldering the greater burden. For the record, seperated or not, I think a child still needs both parents... active and involved in the childs life... and contributing to the child's upbringing equally... in all area's of the child's needs.


But to say that abortion is used solely as birth control is downright rediculous if that is what you meant by it


I wish it were true. If it were, we might not be having this discussion.

While not true for many reasonable adults on both sides of the issue, there are many who are not so reasonable.

My source for the following US statistics is shown below.

- Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute

- 47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.

As another poster stated... you would have thought they might not want to go through another one, as they are not a pleasant experience. Apparently a lot do not mind.

60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.

You would think that these women should know a thing or two about family planning by now.

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 286
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 5:02:15 PM

Not even close. You assume that every pro-choice individual has had an abortion, benefits from the business, or has some payout regarding abortion. Plenty of us have never had an abortion, never PLAN to have an abortion, and should pregnancy occur, wouldn't HAVE an abortion. No, it isn't remotely comparable.


Planned parenthood is big business. They run the magority of abortion clinics in the US and would go oht of business overnight if they were restricted to medically required or crime related abortions.


Nobody deserves to be killed, and nobody is deserving of gestational servitude.


The differnac eis no one is forcing the woman to be pregant it is the reuslt of actions she freely engaged in that carried well known risks so it's not servitude.


Not true. Matters relating to rights are generally ruled in the Supreme Courts and law. If it wasn't. we'd be governed by mob rule. And you are incorrect regarding Canada's view on abortion. The majority believe it is a private matter between the patient and the Doctor.


Not true the uS system o govemrent is represenative. We elect people to go represent out interests. Thes epeople then pass laws. The courts onyl decide on the constatutionailty of the law. By the people for the people and of the people.


Wrong again. No 'babies' are being killed. That would be infanticide, which is defined by law.


Your arguing semantics. Legal defiantiosn change. What dosn't change is form the moment of conception it is a human beign if not yet a legal person.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 287
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 6:00:15 PM
However, the man has no decision making power in the abortion question, and that is why my comment about a woman not killing the baby was made. And I stand by it
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your statement was,....an admonishment of the character of any woman who chooses to have sex,....

that's absurd and your statement above,...doesn't address it at all,...

it's like the old days when the saying was,..if your daughter get's "herself" pregnant she's a s!ut,...

if your boy is caught having sex,...he's a stud,...
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you might wanna consider joining the 21'st century ,.... tin man
 Tin_Man
Joined: 1/23/2005
Msg: 288
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 6:26:11 PM
actually... Marita,....

it had nothing to do with "admonishing" anyone's character

I just expect that if you are going to have sex, you not kill the baby out of hand, just cause you dont feel like being a parent right now.

again... if the concept of being a parent is that bad... keep you pants on. Male or female.
but in this case, it is the female who arranges for the death of the baby, so...

And as for that old double standard.... I do not... nor have I ever... ascribed to it.

My daughter is anything but a slut. However if she got pregnant, I have a pretty good idea how her mother would react. I bring her .. and the baby... home in less time that it takes you curse me... not that I believe that would be your response to my standing by my daughter.

(My daughter is almost 18 and lives with her mother currently).

But there are those who think that because I support the right to live, I should have those ideals... I dont.

Nor do I believe that capital punishment is a good idea. Nor, for that matter, man taking the life of man anywere. I know it is going to happen... but that does not mean I think it right.
 Michael99
Joined: 12/26/2004
Msg: 289
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/17/2006 8:27:27 PM
Abortion should be banned period!! unless it threatens the life of the mother! To me if your a doctor and perform and abortion you should be put on trial for murder! If you are the mother you should be put on trial also for child endangerment and whatever else you can be charged for Abortion is murder and there is nothing anyone can say to convince me that that a woman should be able to have a choice. Women should not have a choice with abortion and not just because she is a woman but because a person should not be allowed to choose whether a baby is to live or not. I am sorry but that is wrong and that is murder whether the baby has been born or not. Your cold hearted if you think abortion is right.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 290
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 3:50:20 AM

Perhaps if both sides would look at each others personal views; a more common grounds could be in effect.

I have asked more then 3 times what middle ground could there be to pacify both sides of the issue with not one reply...
The argument it is my body should not supersede the right of life after the act the woman willingly takes, even when protection is used, results in pregnancy. The risk were there, the risk were well within the knowledge of probability yet the female goes ahead with the act and does not take responsibility for the outcome because she knows she can simply get an abortion and rid herself of the problem she so willingly was a partner to...
To me and others it is disgusting how easy life can be tossed a side through abortion and shows how little we place value on life itself as a whole to allow this to continue.
 Fran_Gal
Joined: 2/20/2006
Msg: 291
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 2:18:56 PM
I saw that on the news....

they want to overturn Roe vs Wade......

its really sick...

those damn republicans
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 292
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 2:30:41 PM
I bring her .. and the baby... home in less time that it takes you curse me...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your right,...my response wouldn't be a negative one,...
however I do notice in your ferver of conviction,...

asking your daughter what she might want doesn't seem to be on your agenda,...

Shouldn't it be? Tin Man
 caffeine7
Joined: 12/30/2004
Msg: 293
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 3:21:23 PM

I imagine there are lots of women out there who wish they had not made the choice to kill there (sic) baby??? (sic)


Yes, and most of them are in prison. It is against the law to kill a baby.

This thread is about abortion.
 Tin_Man
Joined: 1/23/2005
Msg: 294
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 4:33:57 PM
@ Marita


asking your daughter what she might want doesn't seem to be on your agenda,...


As I said to my daughter this afternoon on the phone... when we spoke about the proverbial what if the world falls in...

"I am not asking you (my daughter) to come home... nor am I doing anything so stupid as telling you that you have to come home. But always know that you can... no matter the circumstances. it is something you can always keep in your back pocket."
 confused/knothead
Joined: 12/23/2005
Msg: 295
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 5:42:17 PM
All kinds of arguments can be made on this subject.
But the bottom line is that some think it is wrong, some think it is right.
And there is absolutely no Constitutional right to an abortion.
Therefore, state legislatures should have the right to either ban them or allow them.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 296
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 6:06:42 PM

Just have to add my .02 to this discussion. Wether your for or against it, what right do I or you have to tell someone else what to do with their own body? It is not for me to decide what you or anyone else does with themselves. That is what makes me upset more than anything.


Be it drugs, abortion, drivign with out a seatbelt. If the society feels that such behaviours are damaging to the country as a whole they have every right to elect those who they feel will set such problems right.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 297
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 6:27:02 PM

^^^and that would be all fine and dandy for a dictatorship or socialism etc... We are still a so called democracy here, and we should have freedoms to choose what we do with our own body period! Like freedom of speach, I am not going to tell you that you can't argue with me, because that isn't right. Just like it isn't right for me or anyone to tell someone else what to do with their own body.


Go look up the words your using.

Our represenative democracy is a govemrent of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Waht you seem to be advocating of the person, by the person, and for the person is called anarchy

The people voting thier conscience is not a dictoatrship or socialism it is exaclty wha tthe founders intended when they took power away form the King of England and gave it (sufferage) to our ancestors to exercise thier sovergien will at the ballot box.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 298
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 8:24:46 PM

No, it's called "civil liberty", and "human rights".


Civil liberties are protections from the power of governments. Examples include the right to life, freedom from torture, freedom from slavery and forced labour, the right to privacy, the right to a fair trial, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, and the right to marry and have a family. These are usually guaranteed and protected by a constitution or by adherence to an international treaty

However abortion is not a recognised civil liberty. like drug use, seatbelts, speed limits it can lawfully be regulated by the state.

The govemrent has the power to act to limit the indivual in order to promote the bes possible public good. This power is neither arbitray nor vindictive. Every govemrent on earht ahs this power.

Abortion is also not a human right.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 299
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 11:28:39 PM

Sorry you idiot but I'd rather be murdered 3 years before ever experiencing conciousness then be born into a world run by 400 greedy Billionaires who have no regard for human rights, the environment or their country. You want to force children into suffering a lifetime of torture. You yourself should experience such torture.


So buy a gun and go visit God. Just beucase you are dissalusioned with life dosn't mean you should decide an unborn's fate. If you ever get past the tin hat there out to get us mentality you'll find that life is fun. Evne when it sucks it's fun. It's full of good people, great sights and lots of stuff to do.

I go to raves and dance my ass off, drive my Z car too fast and do native sweat lodge. I have the pleasure of knowing dozens of wodnerful people and live in an area that is just the right size for me. My home feels like a home and my dog thinks I'm the neatest thing since sliced bread. My son loves me and knows I love him and I make enough to get by on.

I don't care how bad you think life is beucase some cabal is out to get you. If you want rough live the life I had. abused, molested, poor, ostracized and confused. Ad in some addiction and shame and you have instant hell. But I found my way out. So I don't care how bad life seems. Killing an unborn child won't make it better. I've heard woman who had abortions say they wished they hadn't. But I've never heard a mother say she wished she had.
 RoseSoul
Joined: 2/26/2006
Msg: 300
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/18/2006 11:52:12 PM
Personally, I am pro-life. BUt its all about CONTEXT. I do believe that abortion is sin, and inhumane if it is done without a valid and very strong reason. Most women or young girls who do have abortion do so, because they simpy cannot keep the baby, eg victim of rape, mother's life is in danger, sometimes because they truly cannot afford to raise the child and maybe they are in situation that they cannot give the child up for adoption.

So many different reasons, when abortion truly is last and painful solution for the mother.

I think to make the abortions illegal don't make sense.

But neither does making it extremely easy, for a woman to abort the child the best solution. For instance, Someone mentioned on this thread how teenage pregancies (and hence abortions) are rising. GIving unwed teenage mothers the greenlight to abort their baby easily is not solution. It merely tackling the symptom.

We need to find a middleground , someway where abortion is an option for those who need it but not a medical procedure which overused and abused, just because having a baby is "inconvenient."
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