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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Abortions soon to become illegal again [Locked - Topic Hijacked]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 sanktspirit
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 51
Abortions soon to become illegal againPage 3 of 63    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

And until you can assume 100% of the risk she assumes to her life, health and body, you have no legal authority to usurp her right to her body.

Wrong. Rebellion against tyranny is my legal right and a moral imperative.


No, it is a z/e/f, as the term 'child' denotes a status of development, clearly not at that stage in-utero. And I commend you for not accepting what you disagree with, but the fact remains, what is in a woman's body BELONGS to the woman's body.

According to whom? The establishment? Feminists? You? Your so-called "legal authority" is in violation. If a woman is carrying my DNA (not that Ill let that happen again in this lifetime) then Im taking that right to protect the child if necessary. Big Sister can send her goons in to stop me all she wants but I refuse to yield in the name of self defense.


And only in circumstances where an established relationship exists, and where the woman is incapable of speaking for herself, does the father have a say in her medical procedures.


I censure this limitation here and now.
 fiery redhead
Joined: 2/25/2006
Msg: 52
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/27/2006 4:12:18 PM

I refuse to accept the Establishments tyrannical definitions for almost anything. A womans body is not the only DNA present in a womb and the Fathers input should have equal protection that women have so egregiously monopolized. The child (not a z/e/f) deserves this protection as well.


well, as soon as you and all other men can carry a baby to term, you can have a say about what's going on in YOUR body; but don't tell me what to do with mine. (BTW, i do believe in your right to have your opinion...)
 sanktspirit
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 53
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/27/2006 4:30:48 PM
No, Ill take "my say" now and make it retroactive to 5000 BCE. I am here to tell you that Im claiming the other persons DNA inside a womb as my turf. Destroying millions of unborn children over the past 5000 years is going to be under review. A time machine is in the works and with Gods permission I will glady volunteer to assist the administration of justice. Who knows I might even have a boat ready on the River Styx soon.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 54
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/27/2006 5:27:37 PM
Ahh my friend epsilonbj you forget one thing ...

their idea of the unborn fetus rights is this: just about anyone against abortion is willing to give the fetus all the rights that they are denying to the pregnant woman. the right to vote for the republicans of course, the right to play soccer. everyone from the pope to bush to pat robertson has a say in the matter except the woman carrying the fetus

... woman does have many choices...
the first in most cases to be blunt but very true is to abstain from sex till married or ready for children and not to trust, what we have already established, that birth control is not 100%...
Once you have the family you want then have surgery to remove the possibility of becoming pregnant again...
or have your husband/partner do his surgery part... same results as above
and one more just for sheets and giggles even though there are some I will not mention and that is to become involved in the political process, vote, petition and make your case known so that the laws on the books reflect your principals

brother
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 55
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/27/2006 6:38:21 PM
babylonia,


1. Sets a pregnant woman's autonomy as separate and distinct from other citizens based on health status.


Not base don health base don circumstance. This precedent is already an established legal fact. From school locker searches to athlete's drug testing. Since you cannot get pregnant except by voluntary act or a crime ( an no one her eat least is saying rape should be excluded as a reason for a woman to abort). The circumstance is one of the mothers own choosing.


2. Removes her autonomy and grants the government and/or other citizens the authority to govern her body.
Speed limit laws. gun control, drug scheduling all are laws that restrict a person's autonomy in the interest of the public good.


3. Sets the stage to remove the right of privacy, as established in Griswold v. Connecticut.


Those planning a crime are not entitled to special privacy. if abortion is outlawed and SCOTUS decides the right of the unborn to be born trump the mothers right to escape the consequences of her own actions then seeking an illegal abortion would fall under this legal concept. We already see it in use in money transfers, ephedrine tracking, explosives markers etc.


To give a fetus or the father (or the government) the right to control the woman's body throughout gestation is a violation of a pregnant woman's rights



in particular where an injunction is sought and secured to prevent a woman from obtaining an abortion. Doing so relegates the woman to gestational servitude.


preventing some one from killing another person is not servitude

To give some one the power to kill an innocent life created by the voluntary union of two people with out the benefit of any legal protections what so ever is a violation of that persons (the unborn's) rights.


Therefore, not only is a pregnant woman's 14th amendment right infringed, but so too it can be argued that the 4th (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures), 9th (giving rights to a fetus at the expense of the woman's), and 13th (Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.).


14th= right now the unborn is denied equal protection of the laws. being deprived of life without legal recourse.

4th= Secure in the person. Hrmm you mean like not having your brains vacuumed out to placate some one else?

9th= The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

Roe v wade effectively violates this by excluding an entire class of people all rights simply because they are not named and so can be ignored as being due the protections enshrined in the bill of rights.

13th= Pregnancy and giving birth as a result of voluntary sex is as natural as water. It is what the woman's body is built for. No one is arguing for forced motherhood. if you don't want the baby give it up for adoption. Outlawing abortion seeks only to prevent infanticide and protect the most vulnerable members of society.

Trying to equate pregnancy with servitude is appalling. Unless rape victims were forced to carry to term this is a non issue. There is no legal right anywhere else except in abortion for a person to kill another person legally as a way to get out of an act they voluntarily took part in.


No, it is a z/e/f, as the term 'child' denotes a status of development, clearly not at that stage in-utero. And I commend you for not accepting what you disagree with, but the fact remains, what is in a woman's body BELONGS to the woman's body. And only in circumstances where an established relationship exists, and where the woman is incapable of speaking for herself, does the father have a say in her medical procedures.

You will not enforce your beliefs on a separate an autonomous human being. You will govern your body, she will govern her's. And until you can assume 100% of the risk she assumes to her life, health and body, you have no legal authority to usurp her right to her body.


It doe snot matter if it is a zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, child, pre-teen, teen, young adult, middle aged, or elderly it is still ahuman bieng entiltedl to all the protections of the law and this includes the right to be free from execution on anothers whim. The zef can never be a part of the womans body. it has it's own blood, heart, brain etc. it is merely borrowing space until gestation is over. Men can be drafted and ordered into lif eand deaht situations agians thier will in the intrest of the public good. A steady supply of new babies is a antional imperative. We now have to import workers for amny jobs, social secuirity id runnign out of future payees. An infantryman in WW2 served form when he was drafted to when the war was over with mortlaity rates many times that of pregnacy. Expecting a woman to lend the next generation 9 measly months is a pittance. Besides with abortion millions die.

No amtte rhow you cut it abortion stops a beaitgn heart and prevnets a unigure indivual from ever drawing a breath or experiancing life.
 sanktspirit
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 56
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/27/2006 9:39:00 PM

ok....so like i said earlier.....more babies in dumpsters.......thats what will happen..........and more suicides. you think 9 months is a pittance.......ok.....how much time can you take off work???..are you going to support them.......i hope you're not going to teach them how to spell......

This isnt the issue. The US needs to stop supporting abortion and focus upon prevention. The issues youre mentioning occur anyway.
 sanktspirit
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 57
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/27/2006 11:38:30 PM

i can't believe you just said that.........that it happens anyway....so that isn't the issue??? abortion happens anyway too!! you don't think scared young women leaving babies in dumpsters is bad??? you called abortion murder..........so is leaving a newborn baby to die. maybe if they knew they could anonomously leave the baby at a hospital.......without their families finding out.......and nobody comes after them....that it might make a difference.. after all your spouting off..........what you said is unbelieveable. and ignorant. i think that maybe ...oh forget it........how many pro lifers on here agree with what he just said????

I think your hyperbole is misleading and insincere. I admit that I ignored your strawman plea deliberately since I disbelieved its relevance altogether. I dont believe abortion is the solution to those issues and Ive heard those same hysterical, rhetorical pleas ad-nauseum for decades. Feminists routinely lie and endlessly harangue the issue with phony stats.


Sorry Sanktspirit I disagree with you. It is an issue worth mentioning considering child abandonment would increase quite heavily if abortion were outlawed completely.

I know some countries have "baby drop boxes" but to the best of my knowledge it is not practice in Canada nor the US.


Feminists arent actually concerned about children. Children are just pawns being used as a means to acheive an end like guinea pigs. Abortion is a cynical, violent, ineffective and barbaric solution to social problems altogether and exemplifies the marxist tradition of sacrificing entire "classes" for political gain.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 58
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 6:40:11 AM
I'll offer this, since there is no middle ground as some say and continue to say we'll do this...

It is almost a forgone conclusion that Roe & Wade will be shot down now that the Supreme Court has been changed, to disagree means you have not done your homework on the higher courts makeup at this time... That is a simply fact not mine just a fact...
You now lose all your rights to a legal abortion, per say not fact just for the sake of this thread, what middle ground would you have wished to have taken?
Do you not see the justification that your argument is losing and you had better come up with a better game plan then "its my body" "Its my body" "its my body"...
If that is all you have to offer you will and are going to lose your right to an abortion that is the plain truth live with it or do something other then the same ol' rhetoric...
Your team is now winning but the other is gaining and has momentum and put in players that are overwhelming your own... See the point being made?
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 59
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 7:21:05 AM
Ladies you have not and are not doing your homework... You are living in the past which as they say is history..
If you do not take the time then you are destined to failure...


PLUKA DUCK
I didn't feel the need to explain... I stand corrected THANKS

Have a nice day
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 60
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 7:36:29 AM
criminalizating abortion,...if and that's a very VERY big if indeed,...if it happens will change only one thing,..how many women will travel to countries that allow it, if they can afford it ,...and how many women will die of botched back room abortions,...for the ones who can't afford to travel,...

I guess that's 2 things,..but,...stop abortions???????,....it might stop a few,...but abortions have been going since the beginning of time,....and will continue to happen,...that's a simple fact,...

On a personal note,..I find it interesting to see how many men,...fight against abortion,...
since they are never going to be forced to carry a baby to term,...or have to lay on a table with their legs in styrrups for a proceedure...for so many to insist or dictate,...I find that odd,....I would love to know why that is,....
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 61
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 7:48:15 AM
I actually am of many minds when it comes to abortion,....

I believe,...that anyone can make a mistake,....and should have a legal option to prevent ruining 2 lives,....

and I believe it's insulting to even suggest a woman,..or even young girl raped has to continue to live with the end results,..especially since the rapist can and often does get legal visitation rights,..talk about double or even tripple insult,...

and I also believe to bring a child in the world but mom has to die for this to happen,...is a bad idea,....

But aborting a baby when it's of a gestation that it could if given a shot live,..well,..let's just say I don't even want to go there,...

and I feel just as angry at the women who use abortion as their perferred method of birth controll,....

so I personally think,...there are times when I think it's the best of bad choices,...and when it infurriates me too,.....but if we outlaw it and the babies are all born who is going to raise them???,....and will we end up with more trash can babies,..because to me that's even worse,...there are no easy answers when it comes to this issue,...only the best of bad solutions,....in my perfect world there would be no accidental pregnancies,...then again we don't live in my perfect world,....and are unlikely to if row v wade is reversed,....
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 62
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 8:37:14 AM
awww...
again nothing more then
"its my body"...

In reality, the threat to another human being is secondary. The primary concern is "How much is this gonna cost me".

Surely you jest... I won't even go there because that is not what this is about... tsk tsk


However, I get militant when it concerns someone else suggesting they have the right to dictate my choices to me. I believe in common sense, responsibility, and personal autonomy (which equals personal accountability).

...you have made your own choice by taking the proverbial easy way out "ABORTION" ..
You choose to not use common sense by having SEX and not expecting the outcome (children), you take no responsibilities for your action you terminate the result of same, your personal autonomy is just that unless you try to main, disfigure or even kill yourself all against the law but have a living soul in your womb and "its my mine me" not yours just doesn't sit right and seems to fit with the other examples more so then not...
...by not doing the best choice, NOT to have SEX just to have SEX, and then to abort and not live by your bad choices you have chosen to end life instead of giving it... Do not bring me into the equation (SEX) then spew me out like some bad taste in your mouth... You allow me to become one with you then take away what has transpired without so much as a thought to my feelings on the matter, an after thought at best. I then have to resort to changing the law(s) so that I can have my day, if you will... and we have not even brought in to association my religious beliefs. which other not on the high court certainly will...
I would say that not taking the responsibility of your actions (SEX) is not a common sense approach to this subject...
Like I have stated your living in the past if anyone thinks Roe vs Wade makes it out of the next ten year period...
But that's just me
Have a nice day

OP's topic ---> Abortions soon to become illegal again<--- is what this is all about !!!

BTW... yna6
very nice post bro...
 sanktspirit
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 63
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 9:21:18 AM

Sank, please speak in english, as your rantings leave room for interpretation. I don't know what ancient right you are trying to 'reclaim' that goes back 5000 years (and to the River Styx, LMFAO)....but it ain't happenin' in this millenium and you have no claim to another's body. Furthermore, your feminism rant tells me you are only interested in throwing red herrings and I don't like fish. If your claim is claim to a woman's uterus because you feel that right due to fertilizing her egg....submit your testes to her whim and we'll call it even.

Bottom line is, yeah, it is HER body. You want something to say about it? Put your testes on the line and give her the right to force medical procedures on it. It's the closest we (women) can get to some people's assinine arguments that his DNA is being hosted in her womb therefore he has *rights* (cough, laff) to her uterus, and since she is the 'keeper' of the DNA, she wants to secure the DNA for future use.

Squirming yet? Just wait until we tell you what we want to do to ensure our rights to your sperm. Afterall, they are the undeveloped brothers or sisters of the fetus you plan on forcing her to carry, or, in the case of some wingnuts and the ever-astonishing sense of entitlement, wanting the legal right to petition her to abort as well. Oh, and if she dies or is permanently disfigured in the process of either....be prepared to forfeit your life or health as well. Afterall, if you are going to force her to assume the risks, you too suffer the same fate.


Babylonia- Speaking of diatribes...Well at least I got a laugh out of you. There may be some hope for you yet somewhere in the distant future. However you apparently will never compromise on this issue and are stuck in that dark, dogmatic law school dungeon that has duped so many other of my fellow raconteurs. And speaking of entitlement.....Your constituents are the entitlement queens and your family law is one of the most tyrannical abominations ever conceived! The lefts focus on the abortion campaign is a critical component of the Gramsci Agenda and has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with power. Marxists apparently have bounced back from the loss of the Soviet block and are on the march in a very ominous way.
Apparently seccession might be the only solution to this problem in North America. America needs to follow Russias lead and implement its own perestroika by disolving into sections that are devoid of marxist/totalitarian domination. Allowing feminists/marxists/socialists into positions of authority has resulted in the death and enslavement of too many naiive and innocents and the US is no exception. Mr. HellGibson are you with me Sir??!
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 64
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 9:39:16 AM
you know abortion might be somewhat different if the trend for the responsibility of the child after delivery weren't so one sided too,...

and if you think upon splitting that you still get 50% of financial support,..well all I have to say is where are you living?


I did everything right,....got married first then had the babies,....and after 20 years as the joke goes he traded the 40 in for two twenty's,...

so now I am responsible for the physical and mental care of two future men (and fathers),...
and although I am financially now responsible for 3/4th of the family unit,....according to the law I get 10% of his income to do it with,....

I now also get to,..on a monthly basis go through the guessing game of will the check come and if it does will it clear,...because our government agency,...Maintenance enforcement,...

maintains nothing and enforces even less and since there are no consequenses to him for anything,...guess what there is also no reason for him to send the check if he doesn't feel like it,....so who has to now be mom,..dad,..chief cook and bottle washer and raise children who don't know what a father is,....and you know what,...

some of them choose because of what they have seen their mom go through,....not to have children,..at all,..and who can blame them?

so abortion is only one small portion of a very big problem,....the lack of a family unit,...

We have women who work their buns off to earn enough money,...so they can hire a low paid often undereducated stranger to raise their children for them because stay at home mom's rank right up there with the unicorns in numbers but reverred much less,....

This whole issue in my opinion is putting the cart before the horse after someone shot the horse,.....we have to fix the family first,....then bring children into them,....

And men if you want more input after you had your input,...put in,....

Then be fathers to the children you make,....try that,..first!!!

Children are treated like furniture,...you get the couch,..I get the chair,...you get,...

enough already with the I GET,....try I GIVE,...my time,..my attention,...my love and my wisdom,...as well as my money and you will be guaranteed more of a voice....

and untill then,...try double bagging,...because birth controll is not just a woman's responsibility,...it's a responsibility of a responsible adult,....
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 65
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 9:42:00 AM
babylonia...
I hope the word "you" I am using is not taken as directed at you at all, I hope I am not coming off as personally attacking you... I am not and offer a heart felt apology if that is the case ... I did reply to some quotes for the sake of argument/discussion only...
Change "you" to woman/women...
Nice post same ol' same ol' though... Nothing new, nothing changing the horizon of things to come...
When boiled down it all comes down to I am fighting for a man's right in the equation and that of the unborn and you are fighting for well women (I,me,mine,my)...


Furthermore, I find it sickening that pregnancy and childbirth be considered as some sort of 'punishment' for a woman not being 'responsible'. That is incredibly callous and counter-intuitive, forcing a woman with whom you already consider to be 'irresponsible' to carry a pregnancy, be responsible for maintaining her health (more responsible choices) and give birth then be thrust into the role of parenthood - that's a lot of ask of someone you wish to punish for being "irresponsible".

We differ in our respect to pregnancy, as I read it you view it as punishment in some cases, I do not...


'Cuse me? You want me, the woman, to be chaste because of your inability to gestate? Why not you refrain from impregnanting me? Get snipped, wear a rubber.....or, God forbid...abstain!
Firstly, I'll not refrain from sexual activity because another's sensitivities may be offended of my choices. Secondly, consent to sex does not equal consent to pregnancy, and third, I reject your assertion that you have a right to my body and how it is used. Sexual intercourse is mutual, pregnancy is not.

When we both choose to have sex we both are agreeing to not abstain, mute point... decision made together... I simply choose to live with the consequences of my actions, others are not...

If you think I am living in the past, you are welcome to it. But I am a generation of women who feels this way, and we will not stand idly by while some stuffed shirt in an ivory tower gambles with our lives for political gain.

Those stuffed white shirts will have the final say... I am saying women better have a better argument then I,ME,MINE,MY...
I'll try to use WOMAN/WOMEN when I post/reply so as not to offend anyone personally... We may agree to disagree but that is as far as my intent goes...

Have a nice day
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 66
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 9:50:57 AM
your right buddy,...pregnancy isn't supposed to be a punishment,..but often it is,...

try not being in the workforce for twenty years,...and not being as physically fit as you once were,...try raising children alone,...without any sorce of income,....while your ex who has had 20 years of experience in his chosen field and has had that time to climb to the top of the ladder,....try going to the food bank,...and to the welfare department who tells you that you are expected to live on 725.00 a month,...total,...A MONTH >>not week,....rent food clothes meds,..the works and be made to feel like a useless human for not knowing how to do that,....and when you have come close to calling it a day so your best friend can raise your kids on your life insurance bennefits,.....because you have no other way of feeding your kids,...

Then we'll talk,....trust me if I knew then what I know today,....I would have had abortions too,...and I love my kids more than my own life,...

because if you think the issue is our bodies,...you don't have the whole picture,....
it's our lives,....from that moment on ,......FOREVER,...changed,....
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 67
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 9:58:47 AM
also the argument seems lame to me in this regard,....

if I get a kidney transplant,...it becomes,...my kidney,.....

does the donour who may still be alive get to tell me how to live and treat his kidney?

sorry but that's a lame statement your DNA in my body,.....
and here's my question,...without our bodies,....your dna,...goes no where,...becomes nothing,...
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 68
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 10:01:57 AM
marita_b
I am humbled by your post...
THANKS for taking the time to open some eyes and invigorate me as a person...
AWESOME READ
I take family values to the heart....
I do not like when children are used as pawns...
I simply fume at dead beat dads/moms...
I will say this I also have disdain for women who use child support for themselves and not the children.... I wish there was a "show me where the money goes clause" receipts and such to show expenditures... and to answer a question that I may be P'd off about my child support payments I can assure you I am not... I pay more when needed and have purchased 1 vehicle for my X and fixed 2 others, at my expense. I have paid a few of her rent payments when she was unemployed, I have sent food, clothes, school supplies and much much more on my own not from being asked... I love my children and support my X as their mother and now my friend... We simply grew apart and were not happy in our marriage... Thus a little history before its asked
^^^^^^^^^^^^sorry off topic^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 69
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 10:31:23 AM
This is almost becoming a CHAT...
We can you can she can I can he can keep this up forever...
Now the world knows, and we know, that nobody will dictate to the USA what we will do about abortion rights within our borders even though we do MUCH world wide in that area including but not limited to money for education and safe sex practices we WILL make our own decisions...
This thread, I would like to remind everyone is about the USA's abortion rights, Roe vs Wade, not Canada, Africa, any other country or the UN...
That does not mean I am not respectful of your opinion because I really really am and wish to continue on the topic at hand...

Choosing to have sexual intercourse in no way, shape, or form, relates, either directly or indirectly, as the case may be, to consent to you (man) dictating to me (woman) what processes or bodily functions are to happen or be arrested (abortion). You do not have that right, as that right is inherent upon each citizen, and giving you that right over me is usurping and violating my rights in your country, mine and, well, according to the U.N. as well.

...an opinion at best but not within the borders of this discussion/thread just seems to me that you now are simply spouting off per say..... stamping of feet... pounding of fist... because you are not getting through to me...
I hope you are not getting mad at me for my opinion I am noway disregarding yours...
I applaud what you have done with your life marita_b I really do!!!
marita_b apples and oranges in your kidney example... really now...
I feel your pain, not through experience but your words, but I have to ask would you have given your children to their father, if he was a good/decent man, instead of abortion in after all your hind site?
I now have the pleasure of picking my children up from school...
And may not return today... have at it...
Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 70
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 10:33:17 AM

I feel for men in this case. If any trickery on behalf of the woman resulted in a pregnancy, and he could prove it, he should have the ability to sue the woman for punitive damages, and for the cost of raising that child until it reaches the age of majority. This way, he gleans from her the money it would cost to raise that child, and he is effectively reimbursed for the money he now owes to this brand new human being. Afterall, the money is owed to the child, not the mother. She would be, in effect, paying all the support, but 50% of it would come from an order of his judgement, and he would give that to the child.

Oh, and on top of the costs awarded, hopefully he gets punitive damages over and above the costs of support owed to this child for the suffering HE endured as a result of her actions.


I see a silver lining.. a chance of "middle ground" "meeting in the middle"... we're getting somewhere!!!

Have a nice day
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 71
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 11:48:16 AM
babylonia,


Abortion is the woman taking responsibility for her actions, just not one you like. What's with this mentality of punishing her with pregnancy for having sex? Since when does sex=consent to pregnancy? If that were the case, there would be no such thing as birth control. And, birth control fails. Whether we like it or not, any action the woman takes is taking responsibility for her actions. She cannot *not* take responsibility - it's with her body, 100% of the time.


Killing anothe rperson for to escape the consequence sof your own actions is not tkaing repsonsability.It is the ultimate pass of the buck.


Since when does sex=consent to pregnancy?


assumption of risk n. 1) taking a chance in a potentially dangerous situation. This is a typical affirmative defense in a negligence case, in which the defendant claims that the situation (taking a ski-lift, climbing a steep cliff, riding in an old crowded car, working on the girders of a skyscraper) was so inherently or obviously hazardous that the injured plaintiff should have known there was danger and took the chance that he/she could be injured. 2) the act of contracting to take over the risk, such as buying the right to a shipment and accepting the danger that it could be damaged or prove unprofitable.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assumption+of+risk


and (Raverdad) you have the gall to find the truth of calling it "forced gestation" 'appalling'? Try counselling a rape victim, and explain to her that she really isn't being re-victimized by being forced to carry the spawn of the rapist or dirty uncle who violated her so viciously,


Strawman argument here. You will find no psot by me saiyng rape/incest victims should nto be allowed the abortion option. I ahve stated very clearly that in such cases abortion may well equate with saivng thre life of the mother.


Heartbeat or not, it is SHE who is forced to endure the risks encumbent upon her body exclusively.


I refer you back to asusmption of risk.


You want a say? Put your life on the line. Oh...wait...nature won't allow that.


nature wont but the courts do. If a man impregnates a woman via fraud on the womans part he iss till elgally liable until the child turns 18 (21 if in school) and he has no reocurse.


in this millenium and you have no claim to another's body.


Then why exaclty do woman asusme to hav ehte iht to violat ehte person of thier child and kill them at will. Death is the ultimate vioaltion.


My only issue is with the misogynists who thinks they have the right to dictate what risk a woman assume


Red Herring, Just becuas some one is opposed to the slaughter of the unborn as birht control does not make them oppsoed to womanhood.

You should save that term for the men that run around getitgn woman pregnant and then skipping out or who bea thtier girl friedns etc. Don't try and use sucha bigoted broad brush to try and marginalise a group of people who are tryign to save over 1 million lives a year.


Bottom line is, yeah, it is HER body.


No that is a lie. The only person who riskes death 100% of the time an aboprtion is performed is the baby. It's thier boby that will pay the ultimate price. They hav ethe msot to lose and also ar ethe most innocent aprty in the 3 person cluster f**K of an unwanted pregnacy. The state should act to protect them sicne the adults in the situation would rahter act like childen and kill a fellow human biegn than grow up adn deal with the life they created.


The state has a duty to step in to protect societies most defencless members. When one indivuals or a class of indivuals must have thier rights violated in order to advcance the right sof another class a path shoudlb e taken that does the least possible harm to both groups.

Right now tha tis not the case. 1 class ahs total control and the other class is subject to execution while innocent.

I understand your argument but I still disagree.


Using your theory, the same can be said of the risks of getting into a car accident before getting into the car. You take all reasonable measures to ensure you remain safe, but there is that risk, and it is never 0%. So, while you understand that there is a risk of it happening, that understanding does not translate you accepting the outcome of the accident. In other words, you would not be denied treatment or insurance coverage, simply because you knew and accepted a risk being present. You receive medical attention, surgery, physiotherapy, submit an insurance claim, etc. You mitigate your damages.

The same with accidental pregnancy. Just because you are aware of the risks, you are not agreeing to the unaltered outcome should the risk materialize.

It's called Risk Management. And you mitigate before (contraception) and after (MAP, abortion, adoption, or birth).


Misleadign at best. After you get in a wreck the medical infastructure swings into action jsut like in pregancy. Kill him so I can ahve a do over in car wrecks. Only in abortion can you kill soem one else to get away form yuor own actions.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 72
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 12:08:49 PM
I'm sorry Raverdad, but you assumptions that are not accepted by everyone. I know you think that a fetus is a human being at every stage of development, but for most that state happens sometime between when 2 cells divide into 4 and forty weeks of pregnancy. I don't know where I would draw the line, but for me, and most, it's not at conception.
 sanktspirit
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 73
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 12:13:51 PM

Sanks,

See any UFOs lately?

Yeah, what galaxy is the planet Babylonia located?


Hint: If it's pink with purple dots and has the Groucho Marx mask on it's helm - that's your ride to McCarthy's paradise, baby!


Id like to but apparently youve already 'jacked the ship!
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 74
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 12:26:21 PM

An abortion is not the killing of a person, and especially not so in the first
trimester.

It is the killing of a person. teh zef can never be anyhtign but an indivual with it's own unigue DNA.


sex=consent has been rejected by the law, the history of which is supported by case law.


Once agian we are not talkign rape. But sex by mutal agreement is in fact consent and birngs with it assumpion of risk.

A woman who gives a man an STD or vice versa during the course of consensual sex cannot be charged with a crime unless they set out with malice to infec thte other person. This estalbished that the idea of assumption of risk is an acepted legal fact in the area of sex.


Yes, Raverdad, the woman's rights usurp that of a non-sentient, undeveloped and non-viable fetus. Her rights even supercede the fathers. In fact, her rights are paramount,


Which is a clear violation of the 14th


until such time when a fetus can be deemed to be viable, and the likelihood of sentience, where a balance must be struck.


No such balance exists today. I would take the ban on abortiosn agaisnt viable fetuses. take it ina heart beat and be happy with it. But in America until the whoel of the baby clears the womb the baby has no rights. Even in cases of Dilationa dn extraction wher ehte birth id forcibly stopped by a doctors hand a baby fully capable of drawing breath if allowe dot proceed the alst few inches is without rights of recouse and subjec tto execution on a whim.


Responsibility and ownership of the a pregnancy has many outcomes, including the ones you do not agree with. And that you do not agree has no bearing on whether or not it is right or wrong. It is wrong for you, right for someone else



Killing soem one else to cover up my mistake is not right for any society anywhere. Only ina bortion is this twisted reasoning accpeted.

and unless you are not adverse to being forced to do something against your will, you can disagree but respect the rights of others just as yours are respected. You, luckily, will never have to make this decision, and in the absense of such an experience, for whatever reason, you do not have the authority to make that choice for others.


You mean like military service in a time of war with mission orders that might get a man killed? Or not being able to drive my sports car at 100+ when ever I want. Or beign forced to apy child support for a Child I don't want (this obviously doe snto apply to me ans I love my son and do not begrudge him or his mom a single penny of the support).

Get off the high hoirse we are all force dot do things agiasnt our will in the name of the public good. The indivuals rights do not extend to harming anothe rindicual in any area excpet abortion.


That you do not like it, that is doesn't conform to your judeo-christian values, is of no concern.


You migh want to take a class on American goverment. it is my concern and it does not conform to the values I bleeive in so I exrepss my self via the voting booth. Enough others agreed with me that we now have a conservative Supreme Court. This is our represenative democracy in action. This is such a clear cut example of how the will of the people has spoken that the left should really pay attention. The left has been losing on every moral issue beucase they will not compromise. They will not consider limiting abortion on viable babies to woin ove moderates like me to a kinda happy kinda sad middle gorund. It's all of nothing for them and now they risk nothing.
 sanktspirit
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 75
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 2/28/2006 1:16:53 PM
Sorry, no vacancy! And we charge one hell of a head tax, man.

Now thats cute. When will you be giving me my "head tax" darling?? ooooooooh!! The reciprocation possibilities are just delectable!

Exactly, Sank! We've chartered your very own exclusive McCarthy-trans, complete with Men-in-Black, Nixon-bugs, and wiretaps so you may feel at ease, at home, and welcomed. Heck, we're even supplying parchute paks when we drop you and your cargo over the land of paranoia.


Whos we white woman? Is your harem coming with us? You know the planet "paranoia", land of your ancestors has a heavy rep for being kinda "anxious"? Would you like Pink Champagne & ourdeurves in our cabin sweetie? Oops I forgot...you will be my ourdeurve!!


Hey, we thought it would appeal to your 'covert' desires.

Only you appeal to my not so covert desires Puddums. Now do yourself a favor, drop out of school, slack off and wait for me on the beach in Rio!! And I want you barefoot & wet!!
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