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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Abortions soon to become illegal again [Locked - Topic Hijacked]      Home login  
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 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 101
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There is nothing more infuriating that a person who claims to know the law, and then makes it up as they go along, changing their argument as they go, expecting me and everyone else to take it on face value. You, Raverdad, have exhausted my patience.

Now I am scared to even comment but here goes anyway...
I do not think whether he knows or claims to know the law or is making it up as he goes along is mute or not but he does have the right to argue/petition to change the law and use precedent he believes will show just cause for change...Right or wrong with his interpretation of precedent it is still his as your own is yours...


Babs... I already posted the above before reading your reply... I, if your right, I stand corrected my friend...
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 102
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 7:49:11 AM

You can state whatever you want...it remains hypothetical.


...but closer to the truth then not
...and within the realm of reality more so then you allow yourself to think
....and you cannot argue with that ...well you obviously have not

Have a nice day
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 103
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 8:01:36 AM
If a woman is allowed to have a physical abortion then a man should be allowed to have a "Legal" abortion and exercise his dominion over his body. It's only fair
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ok this I don't even understand,...I mean I watched that seinfeld epesode too,..but whaaat??
dominion over your ??????????
and
a man????? a Legal abortion????????? say whaaaat?
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When is my right to decide to be a father made for me?

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well kcmron,....simple answer????? when you engage in sex,...without a condom,....

If you want it you bag it,..then you can take it with you when your done,...

.can't get anyer easier,....and there is nothing flawed about that,....

If you DON"T want to be a father,....then be a responsible partner,...



 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 104
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 9:02:54 AM
when you have the capability through technological breakthrough to gestate and/or assume the same amount of risk, we'll revisit this.


That is the most asinine arguement I have ever heard.

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considering the fact that there have been breakthroughs in medicine which have allowed or rather made it possible,...just like in the movie Twins BTW,...for a man,...yuppers,...a man,...
to carry a baby to term,....

In fact the proceedure was actually researched because women,...not many but a couple,..have actually carried a baby to term,..outside the uterus,...and the baby grew inbetween the abdominal cavaty,....

and,...here's the kicker,...both mom and daughter,..(as in the most rescent case in GB) survived,....sooooooooooooooooo,....

if you want to carry a baby for nine months,...and be equal,..and all,...

you might want to look into it,...

I dare say there isn't a woman alive that would stop you from trying,...kmron,....
and the whole 9 months....you are in charge,..of of what happens to your body including baby,.... you want to stand for the rights of the unborn,....then I say put your strech marks where your mouth is and volunteer,....


and since 9 times out of ten when there is a split of a couple,....guess who more predominantly takes care of the children on a day in day out,...and all through the night?

some men do to some extent,..but I did say ,....PREDOMINANTLY,....
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 105
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 9:19:17 AM
especially when after 2 or 3 kids worth of strech marks,...
as the joke goes they can just trade the old 40 in for 2 twenties,...

I have actually pondered the fact that throughout the animal kingdom,....
mothers bearing young,..(alive,..by egg whatever) or even nurturing the newborn is NOT in fact a thing that is found in all animals,...

many have the fathers caring for the newborns while the mom's are off,....for some time or even permanently,....

and there are even cases where the males are the bearers of young,....
if nature does things for a reason,....then there must have been a reason for the norm,..in us humans too,.....we may like to think we are the same,...we men and women,....and equal rights pertaining to many issues is right and as it should be,....

But the truth is we are not,...the same,....

equal,....but deffinately not the same,....perhaps for a good reason,...even if it eludes us,...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 106
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 9:25:00 AM
So FYI to me there Kobra,...just how many of those unwanted babies are you going to support and put through university?

or is getting them all born the end game for you?
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 107
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 9:40:37 AM
absolutely,(kcmon)...but in that case,...If I were you,..I would first find me a wonderful woman whith whom I wanted to raise my children,......

then and in that manner,...you and your wishes ideas,..and beliefs would be not only considered,...but in the event of a break up of the union,...considered equally as it applied to the "best interests of your child",....

the whole thing keeps hinging on your own responsibility,...during and resulting from sex,...

if you are responsible in the first part,...then you are more considered in the second part,....

Bluntly put,....get married,...then make babies and your equal,....
have a great time spreading your seed without thought,...and your thought will be less likely to be considered,...

______________________________________________________________________________

so,...here we are again then,.....take responsibility for all aspects of your procreation,.....
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 108
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 9:53:01 AM

That's right...and they often do relinquish their responsibility once a step-father is named.
The government will not allow a parent to sign over their rights save for adoption lest it gets stuck with supporting as a surrogate.

I am not sure if I read the above as intended or not...
I have a nephew who singed off any rights to his child without a step father being named or even remotely in the picture...


I also do not know if this is correct or not but I believe a precedent is not needed to change any law but is only... In my mind all that is needed is to show due cause that the law was created under false precedent and that the Constitution was not followed as intended...
They can send it back to a lower court or simply rule...
Which is pretty much all the high court needs to do/say in over turning Roe vs Wade...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 109
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 9:55:59 AM
off topic but,.....

wholey smokes the mods are fast,....whew!!!

I'm impressed,.....and their judgement,....
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 110
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 9:58:22 AM
I think you can relinquish your rights,......just not your responsibillity,...atrkyhntr,...
I suspect your nephew,...was referring to that distinction,....

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yynot,....I think nature answers this question of when,...better than any court can,....

To me the when,..is determined by when the baby is viable outside the uterous independant of it's mother,.....which is becoming earlier and earlier every year with the mashines etc.

but that's just my opinion
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What I see is two people engaging in an act that both should (and must) know may result in a child being concieved. (kcmron)

and you have considered this,...every time you have had sex with someone?????
then you will also have taken steps to prevent any unwanted pregnancies from ever occurring,...good for you,...
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 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 111
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 10:02:13 AM

Raverdad,

This is a bunch of legally ignorant Bullfunky.

When you spend the money to actually LEARN how the law is applied, and HOW to actually interpret it, then you have the learned the right to tell other's who have that they are wrong.


Bab's can I call you bab's?

Abortion law exist in a vacuum none of the precedents set down in abortion case law apply outside of it's own very narrow area. Like it or not accept it or not this is a fact.

In every other area of American law dealing with the personal control of ones body Congress has assumed primacy. Only in the area of a woman's reproduction is the individual considered sovereign. You can not show me another area of law dealing with the body where this is also the case.

This is not taking snippets or cutting and pasting that's your specialty to try and razzle dazzle the readers by claiming your a paralegal. All that really means is your not good enough for law school so you hang around lawyers as a gopher.

Via the internet I have access to a law library at least as large as any you have physical access too. Despite your attempts to attack my qualifications you have yet to refute a single point I brought up, I will out lien them again as simply as possible for you to do your oh so highly specialised research that took a whopping certification course I can buy off late night TV to learn how to do.

1) precedents set down in abortion law do not extend to other areas of law where simple precepts would seem to hold sway (personal control over ones body)

2) Killing a pregnant woman brings double murder charges (establishing the fetus as a person in the eyes of the law)

3) The fetus enjoying personhood in one area of the law is denied it in another (criminal statute vs abortion case law)

4) That excluding a class of recognised persons in one area of the law from equal protection in another area of the law is a violation of the 14th.

5) Only in abortion law is assumption of risk (after failing to use contraceptives and other birth control measures) ignored in escaping ones actions.

6) Only in abortion law is the person with the most to lose made to bear the burden. Despite well established case law that when 2 sides are in conflict the side with that will suffer the least is made to bear the burden (affirmative action, gender equality issues, environmental protection etc).

In your attempt to mask the real issues involved you keep trying to focus the debate on abortion case law alone. Now I don't know how it works in Canada but in the US in every other area of law, laws are interdependent. Judges look to other rulings and application of laws in similar situations to weave a legal frame work that applies evenly across the entire spectrum of canon. Abortion does not do this, it's supporters seek to isolate it from every other avenue of law and resist conforming to statutes and precedents universally applied in other areas.

And that isolation from canon is why the 14th is violated by Roe V Wade.

This is why I believe that when Roe V wade goes before SCOTUS as it will soon it will be thrown out.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 112
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 10:09:35 AM
I think cert male was referring to a case whereby a woman was ordered by the court to carry to term for the man who wanted to raise the baby,....

but I'm sure he will correct me if I got that wrong,...right?
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 113
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Posted: 3/1/2006 10:18:36 AM
if you think your being hard done by,...kcmron,....

Then talk to the woman who has to shlepp the kid she has as a result of being raped,.....to the jail he's serving time in for the rape,.......because he's the dad,...and has rights,....

get over yourself,.....The child always should and does come first,...but only after it is independent of it's mother's body for simple survival,...and viability,.....

life is tough all over and try as the courts will,....fair,...it often isn't,...to someone,....

want to know something interesting on a purely medical aspect of pregnancy?
as far as the body is concerned,...the fetus,...is treated as a toumor,....which is why there are so many natural abortions,....which BTW is the term for miscarriage,....

the body has to do a lot of things,.....for the baby to even overcome this tumour ranking,....

that is also the same reason why some women look a certain way,...and believe it or not,...many cancer patients have the same look,...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 114
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Posted: 3/1/2006 10:25:27 AM
and you don't think that the mere act of carrying a baby to term and the hell the body goes through during and after the birth is adding even more suffering to the rape survivor???? (mave),..and oh yea,....

There is always that wonderfull lable that the child will be saddled with as the result of rape,...like children don't have enough emotional baggage to deal with,....

and I'm not saying all rape victoms should,..do anything one way or the other,..but they should have the right to choose,....
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 115
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Posted: 3/1/2006 10:39:45 AM

Stachokus v. Meyers

Shows the blatant disregard given the man in this equation..

All that is needed is an argument as such the topic suggest and when the lower court sends same to the Supreme Court they can toss Roe vs Wade on its head with an "opinion" based that it is Unconstitutional as written...
Abortion laws can/will change just as easily as the makeup of the Supreme Court has...

Have a niceday
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 116
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 12:12:04 PM
How many kids have you adopted? There are thousand of children in the "system" who are getting older by the day and the financial responsibility lies with the taxpayers of this country. Now add thousands more to that. Are you willing to pay to house, feed, and educate thousand of children that don't belong to you and then house, feed and educate yourself?

I have adopted three, three beautiful girls, one has left the nest and two will be out next year... I did not want to divulge that info but then again why not...
I pay my taxes and yes I do not mind that some of it supports children in need, never have and never will ... People pay taxes on property that go toward school systems that do not have children, should they not have to pay...
How about we raise our taxes so that equal support is given to these same children you refer to as are given to criminals behind bars...
Guess I already replied to the last part of your statement in the first part of mine...
Have a nice day
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 117
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:19:50 PM

Actually, if I thought anything of your layperson opinion on the matter, I'd verify it for you. But I don't need to. There are plenty of folks on this site who know me in RL, and can attest to it.

Your arguments are a fraud, Raverdad. You are pissed because you've been found out.

You don't even know what are grounds for citizenship in your own country Raverdad. Tell me, what kind of school does one have to go to for that kind of education?

I'll take your insults, and the fact my post to you struck a nerve, as proof positive I hit the right note.


The only nerves you struck deal with elitism and and your arrogance. You attack me rather than my arguments because you still cannot show even one example of where Abortion law stands in unity with other established precedent and canon in similar situations. Or reconcile how such an unfair application of the law is just by legal standards.

But tell you what you take your high falutin TV certificate backed opinions and I'll take my self taught and self read opinions. Then when the issue goes before SCOTUS we will see whose side prevails.

Now you might have thought of this being a legal beagle but I am sure shot of the pro-abortion crowd hasn't realized yet. But if SCOTUS does indeed find that the fetus is a person and entitled to protections under the constitution. Abortion on demand is gone forever. Even a future liberal SCOTUS could not act to deny a class of persons the protections afforded by law once they are found to enjoy such protections as a matter of right

The abortion debate is a hairs breath from being over forever and being won by the pro-life crowd.


To those who argue that abortion prevents unwanted children form clogging the system. The cure for that is not killing children but preventing their conception. Pro-active vs re-active birth control (contraceptives, education, etc) combined with pregnancy and post pregnancy support for the mother and child is the answer.
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 118
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 12:25:59 PM
Very cool ATR, You're a good man. My hat is off.


Toon
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 119
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Posted: 3/1/2006 12:30:18 PM
THANKS kcmron & toon...
kcmron you still need to contact me via message on here so I can lead you to the fish I caught... Within 1/2hr from your location...
raverdad... PLEASE refrain from any personal attacks my friend you may end up dropped from this forum and website for not following TOS ...
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 120
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Posted: 3/1/2006 1:00:19 PM
As for SCOTUS.....the Supreme Court ruled that the state level revisit the case in New Hampshire, no? Care to discuss the merits of the case over your *esteemed* opines?


This is from bloomberg.com

(..)= article

(The justices said their past cases require that doctors be allowed to perform emergency abortions to protect a patent's health.)

The justices correctly found that denying a mother a medical procedure relevant to protectign ehr health can not be denied a sit would reuslt in an unfair application of the law. IE a cancer aptient doe snot nee dot notify anyone of the need to seek chemotherapy.

(Only a few applications of New Hampshire's parental notification statute would present a constitutional problem,'' Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote for the court.)

The Court finds tha tthe woman can be compleed at least udner certian circumstances to reveal her pregancy dispellign the myth that the woman is entitled to 100% privacy in the area of reproduction under the 4th amendment.

(The case now returns to a Boston-based federal appeals court to determine whether the New Hampshire legislature would have preferred a limited parental-notification law or no requirement at all. O'Connor called that ``an open question.'')

The court finds tha thte goverment does indeed have the right withoin limitations to compell a woman to act agaisnt her own deisres in the interest of the public good.

(The law, which has never taken effect, requires girls under age 18 who seek an abortion to notify a parent 48 hours in advance unless a judge rules the minor is mature enough to give informed consent herself. An abortion could be performed without such notification if needed to prevent the minors death. No similar exception exists to protect her health.)

The court has foudn that parents and gauridans do have a right to be notified and thus council their children or wards on the best course of action in the result on an unepxecte dor unwanted pregnacy. This also estalbished that the at least 1 party in the abortion debate besides the mother (the parent) does indeed enjoy some rights under the law

(The case is only the second abortion dispute at the high court since it reaffirmed the constitutional right in the 1992 Planned Parenthood v. Casey case. The court soon will consider whether to add another case, the Bush administration's bid to revive a federal ban on a procedure critics call ``partial birth'' abortion.

The court struck down a Nebraska partial birth law in 2000, saying it lacked an adequate health exception. Both that decision and the Casey ruling were resolved on 5-4 votes.)

the court magority has now shifted 5-4 the other way


(Today, O'Connor wrote that, in the Nebraska case, neither side asked for a more limited ruling.)

The court has now stated that abortion laws can now be picked apart and made to fit constautional requiremtns instead of the previous all or nothign standard that was aplied.

(The New Hampshire case originally loomed as a major test of the standards that would apply to efforts to invalidate abortion restrictions. The case asked whether those suits must meet a tough legal standard that applies in other types of cases. The state and the Bush administration said abortion laws should be overturned only if they can't ever be applied in a constitutional manner.)

Since the ACLU and Planned Parenthood did not get the redress they were seeking and since new standards now apply that show the right of the woman to reproductive privacy is not 100% this is a pro-life victory.

The case is Ayotte v. Planned Parenthood of Northern New England, 04-1144.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a0_kvuyf0JKA&refer=us
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 121
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 1:07:35 PM
Yes I have three natural... Three adopted...
..and the adopted will have nothing to do with me because I chose to become divorced thus instead choosing to be with my X instead of me... I did not feel it was anyones buiss though and still do not...

Have a nice day
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 122
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Posted: 3/1/2006 1:12:45 PM
in tryoign to distinguish between the article and my thoughts on it I used >>> and ended up erasing my thoughts on it so please go back and reread it.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 123
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Posted: 3/1/2006 1:35:44 PM
Dionysyus,

To reduce crime you don't reduce the numbe rof children you reduce the number of children without active fathers.

Why Dads Matter

Warren Farrell

On Mother's Day the most phone calls are made. On Father's Day the most collect phone calls are made.

We still think of dads as wallets-or as deadbeats if they fail to be wallets-- but reality is changing faster than the image. In the last twenty years the percentage of single dads has more than doubled, from 10% to 23% of all single-parent households. Almost one in four. Moms moving out of the home has been a headline-creating revolution; dads moving into the home has been the quietest revolution. Without the headlines, we miss the revolution. A case in point…

I am in Toronto during a Canadian tour for my book, Father and Child Reunion. A TV reporter and the cameraman are debating whether to interview me inside or out. I suggest going to a park, finding some dads, and having me comment on the differences in parenting styles. "Great idea", the reporter begins supportively, "but in the middle of a work morning, I doubt we'll find any dads".

I convince her to try. We are both surprised. There are about 25 caretakers at the playground…about equal numbers of fathers, nannies, and mothers. Turns out the reporter had passed the playground… but missed the revolution.

Just as the last third of the twentieth century was about women becoming more equal partners in the workplace, so the first third of the twenty-first century will be about men becoming more equal partners in the family. The evidence is in the next generation. A 2000 Harris Poll found that "young men in their twenties are seven percent more likely than young women to give up pay for more time with their families." A full 70% of men vs. 63% of women. Give up pay? Men? A generational shift without precedent.

Dads are, if you will, in the infancy of their revolution to re-enter the family, this time not only as money raisers, but also as child raisers. Not to out-do mom, but to do with mom. In fact, it is improbable that mothers will make much more progress in the workplace without dads sharing more responsibilities in the homeplace.

What are the contributions dads make to our children's lives? Start with girls' legendary difficulty with math and boys' difficulty with verbal skills. In the area of math and quantitative abilities, the more involved the dad is, the better both daughters and sons do. Ditto for boys' increase in verbal intelligence. And the amount of time a father spends reading to his daughter is a strong predictor of his daughter's future verbal ability. So both sexes improve in both sets of skills when fathers are more involved.

And when the children grow up? Women who grow up successful in their professions tend to have two things in common: fathers who respect and encourage them; and male mentors.

Suppose a mom has to choose between income and dad? I just finished doing expert witness testimony with a couple in which the mom was arguing that her moving the children out-of-state was fine because the children would be going to a better school and have more financial security with her new husband. We know, now, though, that father involvement is more important than either the quality of the school or the amount of money a family has. That is, children from good schools whose dads are not involved in their everyday lives do worse than children in poorer schools whose dads are involved-they do worse academically, socially and psychologically. Similarly, children from wealthier homes without dad do not do as well as children from poorer homes with dads. The specific act of moving a child away from the non-custodial parent accounts for 60% of the damage experienced by a child living without the other parent.

The implications of father involvement for social policy are staggering. We think of poverty as a major cause of vilent crime. Yet when children in homes with more income are compared to the children in homes with less income, there is no difference in the rates of violent crime if both are living with fathers. Poverty is highly correlated with violent crime because poverty is highly correlated with fatherlessness. The more dad is present, the more violent crime is absent. In brief, fathers stop violent crime; money doesn't.

In a study of teenage mothers in inner city Baltimore, one-third of their daughters also became teenage mothers. But, not one daughter or son who had a good relationship with her or his biological father had a baby before the age of nineteen. Connection with dad leads not only to preventing daughters from becoming pregnant prematurely, but also to preventing sons from creating pregnancies prematurely.

Ninety percent of homeless or runaway children are from fatherless homes. Father presence is the most important factor by far in preventing drug abuse (not drug use, but drug abuse). Overall, a close relationship with dad is the most important preventive medicine to avoid the cancer of a troubled childhood.

At what age does dad's influence begin? An Israeli study found that the more frequently a father visited the hospital of an infant who is prematurely born, the more rapidly the infant gained weight and the more quickly the infant was able to leave the hospital. U.S. studies show that by the age of six months, the more children have contact with dad, the higher their levels of mental competence and psycho-motor functioning, and the greater their level of trust and friendliness.

There are, however, many types of dads. Until recently we have known little about stepdads and single dads.

Stepdads make us think. If parenting emerges from a maternal instinct, why is it that a full 85% of stepparents are stepdads? If men are selfish and territorial, why do they give love, time and often money to children who are not "theirs". Stepdads usually deal with children who want their biological dad back, who often try to drive a wedge between them and mom. Yet millions of stepdads tip-toe through the minefields of rejection, advisers to mom with neither pay or authority.

In thirteen years of researching Father and Child Reunion, my biggest surprise was the effectiveness of single dads. Around the world, children brought up by single dads do better on twenty-six different areas of measurement (academic, psychological, social and physical health) than children brought up by single moms. Caveat. This does not mean that men are better fathers than women are mothers-single dads in the year 2000 are similar to female doctors in the 1950s: exceptionally motivated; and single dads have higher incomes, more education, and are older than their single mom counterparts. One reason, though, that children do so much better with single dads is ironic-they are more likely to have contact with their moms and feel better about their moms than vice-versa. Their dads are more likely to make sure that they have, in effect, two parents.

If dads are more effective than we may have thought, a new question arises. Exactly what makes them so effective? Conversely, if they are so effective, why are both the intact family and joint physical custody even more effective than a family with dad alone? As they say, "all that and more…" in Part II.

http://www.harrysnews.com/tgWhydadsmatter.htm
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 124
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 1:44:25 PM
Not an accerlant at all just responding to the myth that poverty breeds crime. Poor people are not any more prone to crime than rich people. Broken homes lead to increased crime.

Poverty is simply mor elikely to lead to more broken homes as financial stress creates relationship tension
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 125
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Posted: 3/1/2006 1:48:19 PM

Your uncomfortable? You voted didn't you? You elected our president and now your "uncomfortable"? Your responsibility as a citizen of this country is to elect an official who adequatedly represents the views of the nation. Don't you trust the decisions they have made for you?


I can understand when someone does not agree with another ones views but some of this stuff on here is borderline ignorance... The above statement is one such post...
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