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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Abortions soon to become illegal again [Locked - Topic Hijacked]      Home login  
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 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 126
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seems to me to be rather foolish for some states to outlaw something that you can drive to the next state to procure,...what's the point of that again?

I never understood that with the death sentence either,..that in this state for a crime you die and over here you don't,...

To someone from the outside,...it looks more like 50 different countries,..who just happen to have the same idiot leading them,...

Sorry but that's what it looks like to me,..at any rate,....
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 127
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 3:58:19 PM

You can't assume that correlation equals causation in this case, dion, when there are other control factors that have not been considered. The statistics can show a higher rate of abortion in a state with a lower rate of crime, but what are the other contributing factors?


Also the group with the highest abortions per capita now are african americans. This is also a popualtion segment with the largest percentag eof fatherless homes. The increased abortiosn would elad to less fatherless children which could lead to less crime but the abortiosn are not the cuase of less crime. They are symptomatic of an American subculture where broken homes and poverty collide to create a non nurturing atmosphere in far to many cases.

Babalyonia,


This was an excellent post, but again, you are remiss in one major area of law that this case in particular concerns: these are the rights and protections not of women, but of girls under the age of majority.


I do not argue that point. howeve rit does estalbish that reproductive privacy is not universal as the pro-abortion crowd once claimed. There are now instances even if only the instance of being a non-mature adult where atleast one aspect of the abortion debate can be regulated by the state.


It is accepted that an adult guardian (parent or court appointed), unless the child is awarded emancipation, act in the best interests of the child.


No it wasn't prior to this ruling the parent/guardian had no say and no power. While they still ahve no power they now have a say. or will ahv eif the federla apeals court detemrins that New Hampshires Legislature did indeed feel the need for a health cluase and the exlcusion was accidental not deleiberate.


Further, I would like to see an additional clause allowing the child to have a court-appointed guardian outside of her parents in the case of possible abuse, or when the child feels that disclosing her pregnancy would cause her undue harm.


Ia gree there needs to be an outlet for girls who are or can expect to be victims of abuse as a reuslt of their pregancy or decsion to get an abortion. My onyl problem is in who would be apointed as a legal guardian. This issue is so polarized that finding enough unbiased advocates could prove impossible. Better than a court apointed guardian would be a psych eval by a trianed mental health proffesional who could then guage the young girls maturity and the reasonablness of her fears of abuse. In this the New Hampshire law already provides for girls under 18 to be proven mentally fit before a judge.


It does not, however, address first term abortions, and certainly not of women who have reached the age of majority.


I never said it did. But Rome wa snot built in a day. If any of the precedents established by this ruling can be or are extended to include adult woman however this willb e a pro-life victory. These precedents right now onyl extned to minors true. But they do point the way to a marital notifcation law based on the precept that reproductive privacy is not universal as estalbished in this case. While you might argue that such a law would not withstand the cosntatutional challange. The fact remains that it is now possible to attmept sucha law and bring the issue through the court system all the way back to SCOTUS.


Incorrect. Again, the application of the constitution concerning minors is a different area of law. This addresses "girls under the age of 18" - minors - who have medical privacy WITH a Guardian to act in their best interest. A woman over the age of 18 acts as her own guardian, therefore this ruling does not address the rights to medical privacy of adults, and certainly does not present a pursuasive argument for the notification or consent to abortion by a separate adult.


While this ruling does only apply to minors the precedents it sets however narrowly aford an openign for other restrictive bills aimed at adutls. Given the now conservative court I expec tto see such challanges appearing very soon.
 motodude66
Joined: 10/28/2005
Msg: 128
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 5:06:30 PM
im a catholic, though i dont really practice
and conservative
and i do think it is wrong to just kill babies just becuase the birth control fails or the condom breaks or they use no protection and have an unwanted pregnancy
people can get thier tubes tied or a vasectomy nowadays
but i think that abortion should be legal BUT very limited
to rape and incest, medical conditions
but they cant make it totally illegal
what if your wife, daughter, mother, sister gets raped?
or if there is incest? by your daughter or neice?

i do believe life begins at conception or maybe a little after
the problem is they cant make it totally illegal
becuase if you have a medical condition and it could kill u if u have the baby, then what do u do?
my friend had to get it done becuase she has MS and the pregnancy would have been too rough on her.
her DR recommended it becuase her last child was horrible on her

but if they came out with limited abortion for only rape and incest, then everyone who gets pregnant who doesnt want the child is just going to claim they were raped even when they werent.
reported rapes will go up 10,000 percent in the country
theres no way to prove that they werent( not if they take a shower)
no more evidence
no more dna

they can claim they were drunk at a party and passed out and woke up pregnant from it later on
one way or another if someone doesnt want to have a child they wont deal with it
even if it means throwing babies in dumpsters
its been done before
happens all the time in philly
crack babies found in dumpsters
so its impossible !
they cant do that
so they have to keep it mainly legal
becuase they CANT keep it totally illegal

watch the movie THE CIDER HOUSE RULES.
great film
it talks about this
 mystlw
Joined: 9/19/2005
Msg: 129
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 5:08:47 PM

I do not disagree with the SC's decision because minors must have a guardian sign for medical procedures as a protection for youth. Such a medical requirement is waved in cases of emergency in all other procedures.....this ought to be no different.


I don't see the connection here. Unplanned pregnancies are rarely an emergency, and as such are on par with flu shots or tetanus vaccines, which minor children are also required to have a parent/guardian's consent for.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 130
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 5:23:22 PM
mr Moto,...well said,..

I agree with you 99%,....the only thing I might point out is in this sad day and age many don't have to claim they woke up the next morning and had no idea what happened,....

unfortunately with (rohipnol) and it's clones also known as the date rape drug,....
this in fact all too many times is true,.....

and the movie also,...it hits home,...the complexity of the issue regardless of ones personal beliefs,...

Did you know there is a lady who actually raises funds to get every trash can baby a proper funeral,....in her little garden of angels,...and it's tragic but her garden grows,...every single year,....
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 131
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 6:52:16 PM
motodude66
You rock man...
That is pretty much my stance except where a man is left out of the equation... and that is a mute point anyway because with the makeup of this high court Roe vs Wade will be struck down by the very first glance
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 132
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 8:02:12 PM

Please explain further, as I fail to identify what it is you are trying to convey here. Prior to the enacted legislation, minors could procure an abortion in states where consent or notification laws did not exist - I know of a few from other sites discussing this same topic.


Prior to tis law in New Hampshire the parent/guardian had no right to be informed of the childs intnetion and thus previous activites at leas tin the area of reproduction. If this alw is not thrown out on it's face by the apeals court they will at least have the right to be informed of wha tis goign on with a window of time to express thier desires base don what they feel is in the childs best interest.


I disagree, Raverdad. Knowing how legislation is created on the 'technical' side, it was neither accidental nor cursory that they neglected to include a provision for health. It was created deliberately to test the law under the constitution. The writers of any piece of legislation, and the reason why law is so difficult to understand (the legal joke is "Periods are free!") to so many is because they have to spell out in excruciating detail what it is the law is explaining, its inclusions and exclusions. In addition, they have precedents from other states wherby a health provision has been included, and most certainly used them to aid in the creation of their statute.


Ther eis no disagreement. Notice the "if" in my post. In this case it is a very big if. You amy not respect my laymans udnerstnading of the law but we both no that such an ommision is prima facia evidence tha tit wa snot intended to be there base don the other notification laws that exist. The only reaosn I included the if is becuase corts are independant and ocasionally do throw curve balls into the mix.


This is not an unreasonable request at all, and your concern regarding who is appointed is a valid one. This is why I support notification laws over consent laws, and a provision to forgo the notification requirement if a child expresses legitimate concern to a child/youth care worker that her basic neccessities to life are at risk if she is required to notify her legal guardians. We both know that it is not always in the best interests of the child to be forced to notify their parents, but we need to make sure that her reasons for doing so go above and beyond the natural fear of having to tell her parents that she has been sexually active. School counsellors can aid in this discovery process. The court can appoint a guardian, perhaps along the lines of a child-youth worker, to act as guardian and most importantly, screen for indications of child abuse.


My big concern is to keep Planned Parenthood out of the role of the childs advocate. I have seen politcally motivated advocates in action and the bes tintresrt of their charges get slost in the pursuit of an agenda. You no doubt have the same concerns about an advocate from the opposite side of the debate.


They do not point to a marital notification law, as that would imply that the husband garner guardianship status over a legally autonomous person, and married women do not relinquish their status by virtue of a marriage contract.


A marital notification law would not imply guardianship over the adult but would simply recognise the fathers right to know the fate of his child. I say marital notification rather than father notification for the very simple reason that a husband has demonstrated a committment to the wife and prospective childs well bearing, care, adn nurturing via the marraige contract. Of course such a law if ever eneacted would have clauses to sheild the woman from any reasonable expectation of abuse.

While you say the woman is entitled to complete control over her body I think the other adult party involve din the creation of the child should be at least informed of the fate of his child.


There is no law preventing challenges to current case law from being brought forth anyhow, yet this 'frog in hot water' tactic doesn't change what the law states.


Yoiu shoudl refrase that to there is no statute prevneitgn this. however we both no once SCOTUS renders a decsion on an issue along a certain avenue the issue is dead unless and until a new SCOTUS ruling opens up new avenues.
 martini....
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 133
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/1/2006 11:13:08 PM
back in the fray again,
out of interest, there seem to be again, mostly men that are against abortion.
It has been my experience that many men are not educated on how a womens body works.
If you believe that life begins at conception, where was is that opinion formed from? Religion, science, or just a hunch?
This is not an insult, I really do wonder. Most men don't even know about how menstrual cyles work, let alone when a women can get pregnant during her cyle. How many of the men in this thread understand the gestation cycle of a human being?
Just wondering, don't be calling my a mysoginist over it boys....!!
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 134
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 1:00:17 AM

out of interest, there seem to be again, mostly men that are against abortion.


The pro-life movment is not a mens movement. Evne the woman who was Roe is now agianst abortion. I also posted an essay ealrier by a woman agoianst abortion. To try and portray this as a struggle for power betwen the sexes is dishonest.

Pro-lifers ar enot agiasnt the woman we advocat eof rthe child the only aprty in the dispute to suffer death 100% of the time a pregnancy is aborted.


It has been my experience that many men are not educated on how a womens body works.


Then i suggest you broaden your horizons.


If you believe that life begins at conception, where was is that opinion formed from? Religion, science, or just a hunch?


Ther eis no if in this area. life doe sindeed begin at conception when the very first fertilsed cellcreate dby the union of the egg and sperm begins the process of division and growth. To argue that life doe snot beign at conception requires you to argue that cells are not alive. A posistion totally unsupprtable with any science. And a life form created as one type is that type and can onyl be that type through it's enire life stage. The very first cell created after the egg gets fertalised is as fully human as you are. Although it may not be a person in some areas of the law.


This is not an insult, I really do wonder. Most men don't even know about how menstrual cyles work,


You shoudl stop making assumptions about what men do and do not know. We go through the same sex ed classes as the girls and also get to witness the events close up as our partners bodies slough off the linign of the uterus and dead blood uses to sustian the egg while it waited to be fertalized. we often suffer beucas eof the hormone changes that preceed the cramps as the body sloughs off the now useless egg and it's tissue and blood that were used to keep it ready to be fertalized.


How many of the men in this thread understand the gestation cycle of a human being?


At least as many as woman. Contry to what you might beleive many men are devouted parents and actively track the stages of thier childs development in the womb.


don't be calling my a mysoginist over it boys....!!


Don't worry we wont

misogynist
A noun
1 misogynist, woman hater
a misanthrope who dislikes women in particular
Category Tree:

We will never confuse you as a person who hates woman. Vir contemno is much more your style you misandrist. Although I doubt you know much about latin.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 135
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 7:11:42 AM
All this legal jargon between babylonia & raverdad has been keeping, I suspect, other forum members from jumping in, afraid their opinion will be leveled to an after thought...

Bottom line is what you both are saying is nothing about nothing because it is your own interpretations of laws on the books and how they will fall into a argument for or against...

This court has been set up via nominations/confirmations with the last few being held more accountable for their past views towards Roe & Wade then not. That is why they were nominated by this sitting president (he has turned this court into one the leans towards the Conservative side) and if nobody can see that and what this sitting president had on his mind then I feel sorry for you... Your missing the POINT <--- of the OP's post... The fight has begun and the end result is ALMOST a forgone conclusion and if that is not the case then this sitting president may have one more chance, one more chance and if that is the case then it will be a forgone conclusion... If this sitting president does not get ONE MORE chance then the next one just may... Leading up to my next comment and that is you need to become an active voter not only at the highest levels of Govt, but at all levels because the legal arguments start at the bottom and work their way to the top
They are not settled on some forum on some dating site where we should be discussing our opinions, which are just that, opinions and this post is just simply mine

I dare say these legal back and fourths are more like a chat then an open discussion and may have run their course... Fun at first but getting redundant...
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 136
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 9:17:03 AM
Yynot


hmm..i don't think so. Also, a thing that is alive does not make it worthy of legal protection. A blade of grass is alive too. Even if a thing is derived from people, it does not make it a person itself. You make an assertion without providing evidence or even an argument in support of your assertion. Does a zygote possess sentience?


If you would have read further on in my post you would ahve seen that I identified the fact tha tin soem areas of the law the zef is indeed denied personhood. However that does not change the purely scientific fac tthat it is both alive and fully human. Sentience is not required to be a human or even to be a person in many cases.

ATR,

While Babaylonia is actually employed in the proffesion and I am but an eager layperson we both think along similar or strategic lines. Although we disagree on many issues. As a reuslt our discussion will may well indeed reach a level that some people feel inimidated. this is not my intetion and babaylonia has made it clear that she also welcomes others input. No two or even 2 million people have all the answers and everybody has the right to freely express themselves.

I must say this has been the best threa don abortion I ahve ever particiapted. God has been largely exlcuded and the topic has been kept to the arean of law and politics. While God may indeed right the laws we feel on our hearts and recongise as conscience. In Both America and Canada secular canon not religious dogma should rightly hold sway in the courts.

Babaylonia,

While I am not sure if it is a federla law. A person with HIV can in some states be compelled to inform their partner of thier infection. While this has little to do withthe debate at hand it agian shows how under at least certian conditions adutls can be compelled to disclose medicla information to non medicla personel with whom they have a personal relationship.

Sicne the prospective father wa saprty to the creation of the zef notification owuld simply recognise his role a s aparent to be informed about the fat eof his child. A fate that law already forces him to accept be it abortion of live birth regardless of his wishes.

My brothers girl friend had an abortion in highschool and it left him morning deeply for his child. To think that men do not suffer trauma form abortion is eroneous. men can be extremily deovuted parents who love thier children as much as any woman ever could depsite neve rhaivng carried them a single day inside themselves. I know I would give my life for my son.

Marital notifaction would simply recognise this bond and legitmate intrest between the father and the child to be.
 martini....
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 137
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 10:25:54 AM
so thanks raverdad, your superiority to me is obvious in so many ways. It must be great to be such an intellectual human being that you can read things into my post that were not there, and answer my questions with insults.
And suprise, suprise, you really didn't give me any indication through your post that you actually know how menstruation and gestation work. Rather you took the time to insult me.
No I don't know latin - haven't you heard it's a dead language?
My comment is that many men are ignorant of how a womens body works - not all - but many, my question was - do the men posting here know much about it.
Still don't have proof that you really do.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 138
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 11:24:32 AM
jen1975
What are you the anti-atrkyhntr?
You have questioned me and pretty much called me a liar...
When all is said and done my Xwife had 3 children we adopted 3 and we also had 3 children of our own... almost 5 but lost a set of twins at 5 1/2 mos preg... I have split custody of our 3 she has 6 TYVM this my 3 on my profile...
I have volunteered for United Way, Harvest For Hungry, Cleveland Food Bank, have donated to various other org including the red cross with blood donations and time spent at blood drives....
My character is intact no matter what you post here......


ATR-
I'm confused. Your profile says otherwise- either you haven't updated it in about 7 years or I'm missing something- so do you have 3 kids or 6? As far as the criminal justice system, write your congressman and governor. You elect these people to allocate your tax money as they see fit. If you are unhappy about it going to prisons instead of the children in this country, do something to make a change-
It's interesting to see all these men in this debate. Well I elect that any man who has more than 2.5 children, have a vasectomy- It's ok, I can tell you what to do with your body, I'm the government.

Now you

It's obvious that you haven't dealt directly with anyone who has had or has considered an abortion

without knowing me or my family (your wrong again BTW)

No one here is trying to intimidate or belittle anyone. Babylon is obviously well read and brings up some very interesting topics. I'm sure it might be difficult for you to understand "legalese" like most people, but the message is the same.

What I understand and others (who are more qualified then those on here and I), when deciding Roe vs Wade the Supreme Court will vote its convictions, which in this case will be conservative an no amount of argument from either side will change that fact
After all is said and done that is what will transpire and is the opinion of many many experts on the issue at hand...
A change in the wind is blowing and the course has already been set...

Try to keep the condescending comments to yourself.

Take a small does of your own medicine
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 139
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 11:41:29 AM
martini

My comment is that many men are ignorant of how a womens body works - not all - but many, my question was - do the men posting here know much about it?

That is as fair a question as can be asked and truth be told more men then not would be an understatement... Men have nothing to compare to what a woman's body goes through during menstruation and gestation, NOTHING. To me both are miracles and lead to the greatest miracle of all, BIRTH... Women are reminded monthly of their ability to conceive and bring life into this world. Men may wake up with something blood filled at the most... Gestation for nine months is something that is also wondrous, I cannot imagine what it is like to feel life growing inside, the changes a woman must go through both in mind and body... AMAZING... Then after all is said and done we have the birth of a child who in some way completes one cycle and starts another all at the same time...
I am at awe of women and their body
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 140
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 11:57:18 AM
Yynot,


Forget the law. The heart of the issue is what it is to be human. If sentience is not a requirement of being human, what is? Can you not differentiate between a zygote and you or I? If by human you mean simply that a zygote is made of human material, that's self-evident. But is it a human like you and I? Does it think? Does it feel pain?


Forget the law? That is hardly possible since the debate centers around what the law will accept as a person and thus entitled to the protections of the law in the arena of abortion.

What is it to be human and what is it be a person are two totally different things.

A human being is a living organism for it's entire life cycle form creation to death. It can never be anything but a full and complete human being. Sentience is not a requirement neither is viability. The DNA code is the only qualify. A zygote is as human as you or me.

If sentience was required then newborns who are not self aware would be excluded. Their senteince develops over time as the brain matures through exposure to out side influences. Also a person in a coma is not sentient although there were at one time. Can a person will alzheimer's accurately be said to posses sentience?

No one in the medical, scientific, or legal fields seriously debates whether of not a zef is human. Life begins at conception is a legal as well as scientific fact.

The debate centers around whether or not they are a person and thus entitled to rights and protections. And also around if even if they are a person is their entitlement to rights and protection have limits while they are inside the womb.

part of the reason why the abortion debate is so controversial and confusing is because of this debate. As a pro-lifer I feel that the zef is indeed a person and should be afforded equal protection under the law including the right to life as enshrined in the 14th even if this grants the zef temporary primacy over the mothers body.

That the unborn is indeed a person is not an issue

In an Aloha State first, Hawaii prosecutors have charged a Kane'ohe woman with manslaughter in the death of her two-day-old son because she used methamphetamine during the late stages of her pregnancy. The decision to charge 31-year-old Tayshea Aiwohi in the infant's death came just days after the US Supreme Court upheld a similar prosecution and conviction in South Carolina by refusing to hear the case (http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/306/court.shtml

manslaughter charges can only be filed against people who kill people. In the above case the crime was committed before the baby was born.

Peterson Convicted Of Double Murder

By Kimberly Edds and Amy Argetsinger
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, November 13, 2004; Page A01

REDWOOD CITY, Calif., Nov. 12 -- A jury found Scott Peterson guilty Friday of killing his pregnant wife, Laci, and their unborn child in the saga of suburban adultery and betrayal that transfixed much of the nation for nearly two years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45520-2004Nov12.html

here we see a man convicted of murder for the death of person who was never born at all.

So the zef is indeed a person and entitled to protections under the law outside of the abortion arena.

What currently exist is the mother has primacy of rights until the baby draws a breath. This includes not only first trimester abortions before the zef is viable but also D & E when the birth is forcibly stopped by the hand of the abortionist and the fully viable child is killed.

The old standard in abortion was that the zef became a child at the moment of the quickening or first movement. This usually occurs between 18-24 weeks. or about half way through the second trimester. This was changed in many states to grant the zef person hood form the moment of conception when abortion was made illegal. The Roe V Wade muddied the waters by excluding the zef form the protection of the law if the mother decided to end the pregnancy. Roe V wade never claimed that the zef was not a person or a human being. It simply gave primacy of rights to the mother.


So in closing the zef is indeed fully human and a person although not entitled to full protection of the law until it is born.

Martini,

You should not feel insulted after trying to insult men and having it thrown back in your face. if you can't run with the big dogs stay out of the yard. Nevermind your childish attacks on men and the attempt to make us appear ignorant in a sexist ad hominem attack. You also then didn't Google misogynist. If you had you would have known that the word means woman hater. Words are power and we need to be careful in what words we choose to use to convey information.

An old proverb says it is better to keep ones mouth shut and let people think your a fool then open it and confirm to them that you are indeed a fool.

The abortion debate may indeed center on a woman's body but how the body works or the stages of gestation are not material to the issue. The issue is not the function of one sexes body but the primacy of rights.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 141
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Posted: 3/2/2006 1:04:32 PM

The fact you FEEL the zef is indeed a person doesn't make it so. Why do you feel this? Others FEEL differently. If something is human in origin, or made of human material, it does not mean its a human.


The fact you FEEL the zef is indeed a person doesn't make it so. Why do you feel this? Others FEEL differently. If something is human in origin, or made of human material, it does not mean its a person.


fixed to hopefully rmeov ethe disagreement. I think you ar econfusign human bieng with that of a person
 martini....
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 142
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 1:33:16 PM
Raver dad,

You should not feel insulted after trying to insult men and having it thrown back in your face.

I didn't insult men, if you choose to take my statement/question as an insult - then you read the wrong meaning into my words. That is your issue if you see every woman asking a question as hostile. Frankly, women pull the same bs too - jumping on men if they ask a honest question assuming it's hostile from their own insecurities.

if you can't run with the big dogs stay out of the yard.
nice little sound bite - you would make a great politician...ps. I don't know how to get the boxes around peoples previous quote.

Nevermind your childish attacks on men and the attempt to make us appear ignorant in a sexist ad hominem attack.
And you have categorically stated that you believe me to be ingnorant because you have assumed the content of my question makes me a man hater. Not so, I think men are awesome, I have lots of thoughts about men - as a feminist - that other feminists would not like me for. If you want to know what they are you can mail me directly.

You also then didn't Google misogynist. If you had you would have known that the word means woman hater.
I know what it means and in this case I used it incorrectly, I work and didn't have all day to look up words on the internet. This is an internet thread, not a court of law, or a newspaper article....Perhaps you should also google all the words you mispell.

Words are power and we need to be careful in what words we choose to use to convey information.

I agree with you, and so you should remember, that on the internet we can read our own meaning into others postings simply because we don't not have the added benefit of body language and vocal tone. So, just because you feel I am a man basher - whatever the word for that is - doesn't mean I am. However, there are many boys posing as men, and many girls pretending to be women... take that however you like, because I am sure you will anyway.

An old proverb says it is better to keep ones mouth shut and let people think your a fool then open it and confirm to them that you are indeed a fool.
...Unfair statement Raverdad, again, not answering my questions, but insulting me, without knowing jack about my previous posts....you seem intelligent, why cannot you not engage in intelligent disscusion with me?

The abortion debate may indeed center on a woman's body but how the body works or the stages of gestation are not material to the issue. The issue is not the function of one sexes body but the primacy of rights.

...Primacy of rights has to take into account many things, and with that society and the law decides when a z/e/f is a "person" or not. This will have to take into account the stages of gestation, the growth of the fetus, and how and when a fetus becomes a person. Is it brain function, heart beat, first breath?
I think the 2 sides of this issue are basically looking at opposite sides of the same coin, I won't go into this further at this time, as I have to go back to work....will save it for later.

Raverdad, please lay off the insults, they are really not necassary. If you took my posting the wrong way, I can't help you, but no need to keep putting me down.
I am refraining from any big personal attacks on you to the best of my ability. Please grant me the favour of doing the same.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 143
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 3:05:46 PM
I know that's the legal definition, but even as a pro-choicer I have problems with such a narrow definition. By this definition you could kill a new born that hadn't had the navel string severed yet.
 motodude66
Joined: 10/28/2005
Msg: 144
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 4:41:01 PM
marita_b i know what u mean
a friend of mine several years ago was at a bar with some friends on her birthday and somsone handed her a drink who was interested in her
and it had a roofie
she woke up the next morning with some other guy( a guy who she was interested in though)
but she ended up pregnant
she had the baby
this was before i met her
its a nice kid but the father is a real jerk
lazy spiteful,cokehead
so your right that does happen

ladies beware: when u are at a party , always go with a friend and always drink from unopened cans or bottles
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 145
view profile
History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 7:06:54 PM

The current definition of human being in section 223 of the Criminal Code of Canada reads as follows:


Are we talkign about Roe v wade and the Amrican abortion debate or Canada? I don;t even know if Canada has abortion. Please forgivce my ignoranc ein not sticking my nos einto the domestic politcs of another country.

In the US in at least some areas of law and in soem states the difinitiosn you outliend above do not apply as qualificatiosn for personhood.

Scott peterson and other slike him in prison for double murder (killinga pregant woman and her unborn child) being the most obvious examples of this.

Thus at least in some areas personhood extends to a period before birth.

Persoanlyl if I had to draw the line somewhere and I could not outlaw nonmedical/rape/inces tabortiosn as the line. I would pick the early date for the quickening ie 18 weeks. it is at this point that the zef demonstrates it's evnetual independanc eform the mother via indepndant action and movement. Not a perfect solution but probalb ythe bes tcompromise in my mind between abortion on demand and recognising the child as a person.

Martini you did indeed insult men.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 146
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History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 7:21:49 PM
Six men and six women convicted Peterson in the first-degree murder of his wife, Laci, and the second-degree murder of the fetus she was carrying.
Fetus key word...
What I see will be stronger laws (already begun) protecting the unborn and with that will be the foundation to overturn abortion laws at least enough so that this Conservative court will have enough precedent to do so...
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 147
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History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 7:50:49 PM
{quote]Six men and six women convicted Peterson in the first-degree murder of his wife, Laci, and the second-degree murder of the fetus she was carrying.

Nice try, but the word they used is not fetus but baby. They even adress him by his name Connor Peterson

audio here http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/msnbc/ms111204-4s.htm
 Ticketoride
Joined: 6/3/2004
Msg: 148
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/2/2006 10:22:14 PM
When 'Abortion' becomes illegal, they'll think twice before having un-protected sex with the knowledge there is always the Abortion-Clinic around the Corner.

Granted, not everyone gets pregnant by convienience or plain and simple negligeance, but the majority are ...

Maybe the best deterrant and Method of Birth Control is knowing you will be fully responsible for the newborn child.

Since the Taxpayer seems to be footing the Bill, medical costs going through the roof, its about time to enact and fall back on the original concept of responsibility ... make abortions illegal again.
 Ticketoride
Joined: 6/3/2004
Msg: 149
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/3/2006 12:47:09 AM
It has been long established that this has never been a deterent for stopping irresponsibility

That Statement is borne out of the Vested Interests of keeping Abortion legal, nothing that has any basis in fact, regardless what studies say what. Deterants work ...

I understand about rape Issues, there may even be others ... I do not want to comment on those, or every possible circumstance as I believe I may well be superceding my bounds, but deterrants work by raising the Bar of Liability, those who think in terms of Abortion as a Convienince, those that view it as an avenue out.

For the most part, anyone that thinks in such terms and then wishes to have a fetus aborted ... then that's almost bordering on being evil, not an issue of sympathy as you are painting it up to be. Thats just pure and plain irresponsible, and if anyone wants to tell me there is no way to make someone responsible, I say thats total hogwash, BS PR only. The pressure of responsibility has to be placed on the Person, not by yanking more Tax Money out of our pockets to print and send even more pamphlets to everybody and his dog.

I find it ironic that in our country, birth control is not government funded, sex ed is neither universally mandated nor implemented properly in our schools, yet abortion is covered by provincial healthcare.

I agree, that is a$$-backward.

Additionally, making abortion illegal only serves to make criminals,

Their own choice ... there is no excuse to become criminal because someone does not abide by the Law and opts to perpetrate the "infanticidal holocaust". Unless extenuating circumstances not borne out of convienience exist, its criminal to abort. And as such an Abortion is a Criminal Act. Maybe not legally, but by act and conscience it most definitely is.

In this Case, both Parents and Educators have a Responsibility in this. How many hours of Education does a child need to know and become aware of the Ramification of Childbirth?
How many Billions are to be lifted from our pockets to get a simple concept across?

Deterrants work. Those that make their money on Abortion will bring contrary info to the table to distort matters. When they know there is no way they could possibly have an Abortion, we'll see a reduction in both pregnancies and STDs. People are gonna start to talk, fear-mongering the upshots of unplanned pregnancies, dramatic warnings ... you bet this would work as a deterrant.

When we rely on big $$$, Gov't & Clinics, instead of Parents and Educators getting tough, the disciplinary values become lost, the inherent responsibilities fade out of view.

I do want to point out something here and make distinguishing remarks. It may occur, where a women who has been raped is so repulsed, sickened and feeling ill carrying a Rapists child, that there would be little served by having it born, but that may be debatable too, but I won't go there. Likewise, a woman may find herself trapped by an Abuser in a Pregnancy used to keep her down, who may even had gone through extensive trickeries to cause the pregnancy ... and not having the child may be the ticket to her freedom, perhaps even her life. Again, I do not want to comment on these type of scenarios. I am not going to pretend to know what its like to be in their shoes.

But obtaining an Abortion in a pre-meditated fashion by being negligent is not the object of any Sympathy ... its almost downright vicious. You have to hold people accountable ... there is no other way. Systems, Monies, Resources have limits. People have to be made responsible for their actions, and the avenues to slither out have to be blocked off.

As such I applaud Gov. Mike Rounds inclination to sign a bill that would ban nearly all abortions in South Dakota.

I don't know, but the thought of an irresponsible teen being forced by criminalizing abortion for an accidental pregnancy is more of a punishment on the child, and creating the dilemma of 'children raising children'.

Way back when in the Hay-days ... prior to WW2 ... they'd always have a chaperone (deterrant) for 2 young ones dating, until they got married.

What an Infringement of your personal freedom eh? We bitch about it. 75 years later with all the Freedom our Forefathers never had we now get pregnant and bitch if we ask them to be responsible.

Now we are gonna throw more Gov't money around to solve the problem?

Sorry, comes down to hard ethics ... gotta draw a hard line somewhere, because all the pussy-footing in the world, all the sympathies and monies can only go so far.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 150
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History
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/3/2006 4:52:48 AM
Hey raverdad
My bad... I wasn't "trying" anything just a paste/copy I had found online which of course you have proved wrong... I rather like the fact that he was tried for the following:
Regarding the killing of the unborn child, the complaint states, under the heading Termination of Pregnancy: "During the commission of the murder of Laci Denise Peterson, the defendant with knowledge that [she] was pregnant did inflict injury on [her] resulting in the termination of her pregnancy."
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