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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Abortions soon to become illegal again [Locked - Topic Hijacked]      Home login  
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 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 176
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Abortions soon to become illegal againPage 8 of 63    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
yes babalyonia I have heard of Godwin's law. However I used the Hitler/Nazi refrence in context. Unlike say ythe left tryign to equate Bush with Hitler where the anaology depsite what appear to be similarities in unwarrented.

Some one said live and let live. This was indeed a survival style adopted by the Gemrans living near the concentration camps. It was no defense then, they should ahve acted and spoken out. becuase they didn't they were held responsable by Eisenhower and the world. Thos eof us on the side of the right to life trac eour roots to thoise who did speak out. Agiasnt slavery, Jim, Crow, apartied, National Socialism and other events the world eventually rejected as unaccpetable in civillised society.

My refrence to the death of the jews was also in context. If one day the zef is indeed afforded the right sof a person under the law it will ahve come on the backs of 30 million plus deaths.

Since you are of course familair with Godwins law you have heard of this excpetion.

Godwin's standard answer to this objection is to note that Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a reference or comparison may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided. Avoiding such hyperbole, he argues, is a way of ensuring that when valid comparisons to Hitler or Nazis are made, such comparisons have the appropriate impact.

The comaprison I made was apt s i did not go into motive (the number of deaths) or use reductio ad Hitlerum (first example). I simply used the event's in a proper historical context to refute the live and let live idea advanced by a poster.

The term reductio ad Hitlerum (whimsical Latin for "reduction to Hitler") was originally coined by University of Chicago professor and ethicist Leo Strauss. The phrase comes from the more well-known logical argument reductio ad absurdum. It is a variety of association fallacy. It may also be described as argumentum ad nazium.

The reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy is a special case of the genetic fallacy, of the form "Adolf Hitler or the Nazi party supported X; therefore X must be evil." This fallacy is often effective due to the near-instant condemnation of anything to do with Hitler or the Nazis.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 177
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/3/2006 7:05:23 PM
I have had a good read... THANKS ALL!!!
But with my children here pulling me in all directions I must cut short any and all replies due since my adsence from this thread... Thus I must be quick here...


It is not about her "right to motherhood" or his "right to fatherhood" - it's about her right to what happens to her body.


That is the "me my mine I" defense and it falls on death ears (mine OK?) when used to abort a life that both parties knew had a chance of happening, and one wished to terminate simply "BECAUSE", with the action they both chose to perform, for a better choice of words...


Where MY body is concerned.....ANY legislation or "governing body" can go Stuff itself. I AM THE LAW.


If you are "THE LAW" then you can commit suicide (its your body), shoot yourself in the foot (its your body) have a late term abortion simly because ITS YOUR BODY...
Laws are made to protect and preserve society and sometimes to protect you from yourself...

@babylonia


Walks away from this thread.......


Don't do it Babs!!!!


when the day comes that no one will be able to take pictures of starving dying babies because help got to them long before it got THAT BAD,......

and when no one goes off to war,..to kill and kill some mother's children,...
because they might have,..or might do,...

and when no child,...or todler even is used and abused physically,...mentally,...and sexually by some adult,.....

then I will believe all life is sacret,....by all,...not until then,....

I hope we get there one day,....but as I look around I have my doubts,...


With that attitude you cannot be part of the solution my dear its sounds as though you have given up... What you ask for is what all good decent people on this earth also wish and we all strive for the same end result even though we may take different roads to get there...


If morals were inborn, why would there be such differing points of view on what constitutes moral or immoral behavior?


Morals is what seperates us from the animals... or what would you call it???


There's nothing more dangerous than someone who "just knows" s/he knows what's right


It is not someone per say it is the majority


Time to take my children to bed... Have a nice night
 confused/knothead
Joined: 12/23/2005
Msg: 178
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/3/2006 11:53:09 PM
I hesitate to be redundant with tired arguments, but sometimes it is necessary in order to establish stipulations.

Roe v. Wade was, in effect, an illegal decision. It was based on a "right to privacy".
This "right", of course, was never realized in the 180 years preceding Roe v. Wade. For good reason. The great majority of crimes (larceny, burglary, rape, murder, child molestation, etc.) are committed in privacy.

I also fear, due to redundancy and boredom, to refute the argument about a woman's right to do what she wants to with "her body". Even preceding DNA analysis, there was always (at least pre-Roe) legal precedent that a child in the womb was considered a separate person, for example with property succession. With the advent of DNA analysis, it is obvious, of course, that the child is a separate body from that of the mother.

South Dakota can arguably said to be going too far in not allowing abortions for rape and incest. It seems that had they made allowances, their chances in the courts would have been enhanced politically.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 179
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 4:37:03 AM

Yes, exactly, and I don't apologize for it.
I make the choices for me, you don't.
I am in charge of my body, you aren't.
My body is mine, not yours.

..up and until the law says otherwise, then you either choose to become criminal or not... At that time it becomes your choice and you'll have to live with your own convictions and that of the court... It really is as simple as that... Without laws we become unstable as a society... It is your body is not the question if it were only up to you then you could commit suicide or simply end your pain and suffering but in either case you cannot... ITS MINE MINE MINE is all you'll scream when they drag you away bound by the laws that govern our society and this Conservative minded court will make that happen... Case then will be closed on the its your body defense...


South Dakota can arguably said to be going too far in not allowing abortions for rape and incest. It seems that had they made allowances, their chances in the courts would have been enhanced politically.

They may be trying the "throw it all on the wall and see what sticks approach"... A sort of barter if you will...

Have a nice day
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 180
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 9:16:23 AM
If you don't like the potential outcome....Sterilize Your collective Male selves and
shut the F*ck up!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

interesting thought,...but it'll never happen,....because most males will do ANYTHING,..to prevent that,....my ex was destined to get snipped,...the day I went into labour with our last,...

and when I had to have a ceserian,...he jumped at the opportunity for the doctor to snip me instead,...even when the doctor explained to him,..(also a doctor) how much more riskey this would be,...because of the increased ammount of blood volume in the area,....but I woke up and guess what?
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 181
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 9:32:27 AM
tsk tsk tsk...
Four women in a row trying to go down a road that is not even remotely possible because they (nor anyone else) will ask/fight for such legislation but will only talk about it as if it could become a reality... Go do it... I would support it... I see no reason not to especially if it ends abortion as we know it today...
Tell you what you get a law passed that requires men to get a vasectomy and I'll be the first in line and gladly know that I am doing my part to put an end to abortion... Anyone who knows me knows I am not blowing smoke up your collective... Well you know
Until such a law is passed I'll support my convictions/morals and know that we are closer to ending Roe vs Wade then we are to keeping it...
Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 182
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 10:49:02 AM
SORRY for your loss TMP...
That is the other side of this debate that needs to be is heard and rarely is and some people "don't get it" and never will... Very sad indeed...
Put up your "sign here" and have no laws passed... Instead of being serious you play games...
The only game in town I am interested in is when Roe vs Wade is ended and sooner then later I say... Unless you have another viable plan then I'll stay with mine...

Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 183
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 10:53:29 AM
Well said certified male I applaud you
But we cannot lump all kids into one neat package all we can do is lead them to our morals and convictions we cannot decide for them only they can do that... No matter what our teachings and examples are they still choose their own path... We can only hope that some of what we toss at them sticks..


Have a nice day
 confused/knothead
Joined: 12/23/2005
Msg: 184
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 11:22:19 AM
Babylonia:
You said:
--------
"Incorrect. The decision was based on Griswold v. Connecticut, which set the precedent for medical privacy. "
--------
Comment: medical privacy is a catagory of privacy. While Griswold may have decided that that niche to be constitutionally protected, here are some extreme analogies:
* a patient and his doctor shooting up heroin (actually, I don't have a problem if they could legally do it, as they would be two consenting adults)
* a doctor giving a child molester, as part of his "prescription", the right to molest children in the doctor's office
* a doctor giving a kleptomaniac a "prescription" to rob banks, legally

Like I said, these are extremes, and I am hard-pressed to give more adequate examples at the drop of a hat.
But many would consider abortion itself to be extreme, so the analogy holds.

And there is a third person to consider.
*
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 185
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 12:03:44 PM
DragonN
Nobody has to bow down to your theatrics and SIGN here or even agree they only have to obey the law and when laws do not hold true to their convictions they lawfully attempt changes through any of several avenues available to them.... Voting is one court action another... Pick yours they can pick theirs... Simple eh?
Screaming and yelling like you have won a point or have a checkmate is much to do about nothing and changes nothing but maybe someones opinion of you which of course then means they no longer may listen to your point of view... at the least......
Maybe much to your chagrin I presume is the fact that vasectomies are not 100% effective...


Have a nice day
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 186
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 2:05:59 PM
DEAD SERIOUS.

Men run around screaming PRO LIFE....??? Correct?
So far...you have been the only one that even suggested that you would get sterilized...what of the rest?
Unless the ProLifers are willing to agree to Vasectomies by LAW,the SAME LAWS that govern these nations, and respect [supposedly] equality by gender....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am amazed and applaud the fact that this person at the very least realizes that there are always 2 people involved and if at least one of the two takes responsibillity and that this can indeed also be the man,....

for too long this has been a woman's burden to bear,...because no matter what she decides,..if she stands alone any decision she makes will be a burden of some sort,....

TO ME THIS IS A HUGE STEP AND THE FIRST CHANGE IN DIRECTION OF THIS DEBATE IN 24 PAGES,....WAY TO GO,...

It doesn't have to be as drastic or permanent step as a vasectomy,...but at least a person this responsible would likeley be one that would wear a condom,...and that is at least something,....because even with this day of aids becoming once again resistant to the cures, such as they are,...so many still don't,...
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 187
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 3:24:14 PM
@babalyonia,


Actually, Raverdad, it does, in particular, refer specifically to its usage in debates relatng to abortion. It is meant to silence the opponent, and is also used (inappropriately) in debates relating to Bush, guncontrol and homosexuality.


1) I mad eno comparison with Hitler and the pro-abortion crowd. I equated the pro-life crowd with the German resitance and those who opposed slavery and Jim Crow laws. There was no attmept to silence the opposstion.

However anothe rcaveat of Godwin's law is the thread has indeed died when we start debating wether it applies or not. Ther eis also the invoking caveat. Wher eone sides tries to invoke Godwin's law to win a discussion. This is a misuse of the law and some hold that it amoutns to a defeat of the issuing party.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 188
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 3:31:08 PM
Men run around screaming PRO LIFE....??? Correct?


Not just men

Pro-life women shift to majority


By Grant Schulte
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


The balance between pro-choice women and women who say abortion should be outlawed or severely restricted is shifting toward the pro-life side, bumping that group into the majority in the debate over reproductive rights, according to a new national poll.
Fifty-one percent of women surveyed by the Center for the Advancement of Women said the government should prohibit abortion or limit it to extreme cases, such as rape, incest, or life-threatening complications.
The findings, with a 3 percent margin of error for the 1,000 women surveyed, tips the scale from the last sampling in 2001, when 45 percent of women sided against making abortion readily available or imposing only mild restrictions. Only 30 percent support making it generally available, down from 34 percent in 2001, the survey found.
The New York-based center that sponsored the survey is a nonpartisan advocacy group for pro-choice women's rights. The center's president, Faye Wattleton, headed the Planned Parenthood Federation of America for 14 years.
"While we do have a certain point of view on women's issues, we don't believe we should suppress information," Mrs. Wattleton said in an interview yesterday with The Washington Times. "You don't want to create false or artificial data."
The results, announced with a series of women's responses to issues such as domestic violence and affirmative action, found that fewer women — 41 percent — consider protecting abortion a top priority, an 8 percent drop from 2001. Of the 12 top priorities, keeping abortion legal was second to last, beating only the percentage of women who want to increase the number of girls participating in organized sports.
Eighty percent of women also reported having no second thoughts about their views on abortion.
Mrs. Wattleton, a women's rights activist in the 1970s, called the survey's results a "disturbing" step against the pro-choice perspective. She pointed to another part of the survey in which 50 percent of women said they believe the Supreme Court will let current abortion laws stand. Women who predicted the court would change the law said by a 2-to-1 margin that the court would make getting an abortion more difficult instead of easier, the survey said.
At issue during the high court's recent session was whether one or several of the justices would step down, opening the door to a President Bush appointee. The Bush administration has been tightening the restrictions on certain types of abortions after President Clinton undid many limitations from previous administrations.
"It's a broader issue now than mere reproductive rights," said Mrs. Wattleton, adding that changing administrations shouldn't seesaw on what she considers an inalienable right. "I've always felt it struck at the status of women in society.
"But even if we hold our noses at it, we want to be sure we show women's true perspective."
Pro-life groups applauded that portion of the survey, saying they were glad the organization did not skew results in its favor.
"They're concerned about the shift, and rightfully so," said Ann Scheidler, executive director of the Chicago-based Pro-Life Action League. "We are winning. It's by no means going to be in a year are two, but our effort is to eventually make abortion unthinkable."
The survey findings come just after the Supreme Court decided not to hear a case in which a federal appeals court barred anti-abortion groups from publishing Internet "wanted" posters for doctors who perform abortions. The lower court's judge ruled a year ago that although the posters contained no threatening language, the criminal-style look amounted to "true threats" not protected by the First Amendment.
The poll also found that 43 percent of women reported facing prejudice or discrimination in the workplace because of their sex, although only 50 percent said affirmative-action programs should continue. Roughly one-third said affirmative action should either be phased out or ended immediately.
The center's poll, titled "Progress and Perils: New Agenda for Women," was conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates, an independent research company specializing in social and policy work. The center's Web site and survey is located at www.advancewomen.org.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030701-115636-9509r.htm

UTICA, N.Y. (Reuters/Zogby) - In a Zogby ``American Values'' poll respondents were asked to choose between the two statements, ``abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter,'' or ``abortion does not destroy a life and is not manslaughter.''

The nationwide poll of 1,005 likely voters with a margin of error of +/- 3.2% showed that 51% believed that that abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter while another 35% said that abortion does not destroy a life and is not manslaughter. Eight percent agreed with neither statement while 6% said they weren't sure.

By party affiliation, 37% of Democrats said abortion was manslaughter while 47% disagreed. Another 67% of Republicans said that abortion was manslaughter while 23% disagreed. Fifty-one percent of independents felt that abortion was manslaughter while 32% said it was not.

By gender, men and women's feeling were statistically the same - 51% of both men and women agreed that abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter while 37% of men and 33% of women said that abortion neither destroys a life nor is manslaughter. While 7% of men and 9% of women agreed with neither statement, 5% of men and 7% of women were not sure.

What we asked:

``Please choose the statement that most closely resembles your own opinion.

On abortion.

Statement A. abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter.

Statement B. abortion does not destroy a life and is not manslaughter.''

http://www.gargaro.com/plmajority.html

July 1999
A CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll revealed that over 70 percent of Americans think access to abortion should be limited to some circumstances.

The poll was based on phone interviews with 1,014 adults April 30-May 2. Responses indicated that:

16 percent of Americans think abortion should be illegal in all cases.

55 percent said abortions should be allowed only in cases of incest or to save the life of the mother.

27 percent said abortion should be allowed in all cases.

The poll also showed that the number of people who consider themselves "pro-choice" dropped from 56 percent three yrs ago to 48 percent today.

Those who considered themselves "pro-life" increased from 36 percent three yrs ago to 42 percent today."

Source: St. Anthony Messenger Magazine, July 1999

A Campaign for Working Families exit poll, conducted 3/10, surveyed 411 "actual voters"; margin of error +/- 5% (release, 3/11/98).

Ques: "Which of the following statements most closely reflects your position on the issue of abortion?"

Pro-life - 50%
- Should Be Prohibited In All Cases 16%
- Should Be Legal Only To Save Mother's Life 12%
- Should Be Legal In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or To Save Mother's Life 22%

Pro-choice - 41%
- Should Be Allowed At Any Time During Pregnancy 18%
- Should Be Legal For Any Reason, But Not After First Tri-mester 17%
- Should Be Legal For Any Reason, But Not After Second Tri-mester 6%

- Don't Know - 9%

Currently, abortion is allowed at any time during pregnancy, thus, only 18% of those surveyed agree with the current law.
 DeagleNINja
Joined: 9/10/2005
Msg: 189
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 7:14:43 PM
Raverdad, just wanted to point out that your the polls you used contradict each other my friend.

The Washington Times articles says that most are 'pro-life' now, but the CNN/ USA Today/ Gallup poll says the opposite, that most are pro-choice. The Zogby 'American Values' poll is just downright confusing...at first it says that respondants were asked to choose between two answers, but then says that percentages of the respondants answered in a thrid and fourth manner....so which is it?

Focusing on the CNN poll, I want you to notice something....

Out of the 50% who are supposedly Pro-life, 34% believe abortion is ok under certain circumstances. That only leaves 16% that believe abortion should be illegal in ALL cases.

The South Dakota ban on abortion which started this thread only makes exceptions for cases when a mother's life is in danger, which according to this poll is how only 12% of Americans feel. Politics aside, does this seem like representative government to you?

Likewise, only 18% believe that abortion should be legal in ALL cases including the third tri-mester.

This only makes my earlier point for me: we have much more in common than we differ.
The vast majority of people see abortions as appropriate in certain situations. That is why I reccomended that the law be amended to allow one or two 'accidents' and then restrict abortions after that. Each man and woman could be granted one 'accidental' abortion by law. Abortions for women that are raped, a victim of incest, or whose lives are in danger could still get abortions. I think this makes much more sense than the current laws, but I'd be interested to see what others think....
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 190
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/4/2006 9:37:56 PM

Raverdad, just wanted to point out that your the polls you used contradict each other my friend.


Actually if you follow the links you wills e ethe time lien which shows a trend towards the right to life side.

One or two msitakes is stilla bortion on demand for all intent sand purposes. Outside of medicla nessity, rape and or incest the answer is not oops I mad ea mistake so kill my baby. Instead we need pro-active birth control on demand, decent sex education and discourse that favors prevntnion over reaction.

The pro-abortion crowd's leadership is jsut as instragenient as any right to lifer.
 confused/knothead
Joined: 12/23/2005
Msg: 191
Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/5/2006 7:32:39 AM
Miss Babylonia:
Here is a quote you recently made...
" As it stands though, society's mores and placement of little worth on the most important job in this world (raising children) FORCE the hand of women who wouldn't otherwise choose this path."
--
comment: I think western society has always placed immense worth on motherhood.
But laws about restricting abortion encompass aspects both of perceived morality and societal imperatives. Recently, Maggie Gallagher had a column illuminating the fact that the indigenous populations of European countries such as Spain, Italy, and Austria are imperiled by their declining reproduction rate, to the extent that the indigenous populations are in line to be halved in the above countries in a mere 25 years, with similar results, but no so exagerrated, in other European countries. While it is "good" to not overpopulate the earth, it is downright scary that these countries will be, in effect, turned over to other "cultures" that have no qualms about overpopulation.

Aside: yes. Of course call me "irritating". The nomenclature was intended to be a little frictionous. If we are not a little bit agitating in these forums, we would all be in rose-colored fru fru harmony, and the status quo would remain. ??

In essence, therefore, state restrictions on abortions, and (gasp) even birth control, might be a form of downright patriotism? As American as apple pie and motherhood? The world's most important job. Well, at least one of the most important.
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 192
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/5/2006 11:57:53 AM

I am amazed and applaud the fact that this person at the very least realizes that there are always 2 people involved and if at least one of the two takes responsibillity and that this can indeed also be the man,....

for too long this has been a woman's burden to bear,...because no matter what she decides,..if she stands alone any decision she makes will be a burden of some sort,....

TO ME THIS IS A HUGE STEP AND THE FIRST CHANGE IN DIRECTION OF THIS DEBATE IN 24 PAGES,....WAY TO GO,...

It doesn't have to be as drastic or permanent step as a vasectomy,...but at least a person this responsible would likeley be one that would wear a condom,...and that is at least something,....because even with this day of aids becoming once again resistant to the cures, such as they are,...so many still don't,...


I would never ask anyone to do what I do not already expect of myself, male or female...
Kind of makes a person stand up and take notice when someone speakes from the heart and not the A$$... There is a diff eh?
THANKS "M"


Have a nice day
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 193
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/5/2006 9:08:18 PM

If so, then explain why single mothers trump the majority on poverty?


You know thats a red herring you've introduced a a qualifier via the word "single".

There are several reasons why single motherhood is found so often among those afflicted with poverty.

1) Single mothers tend to be younger and thus on the bottom end of the wage scale via alck of skills or school drop out.

2) Lack of fiscal and mateiral support by the absent father.*

3)drugs and achohol abuse (tied into #1)

4) lack of education (tied into #1)

* I beleive there is a definate case to be made between welfare, poverty, cime and the destruction of the black family. This group skews the statistics somewhat with overwhelming numbers of single parent homes mired in poverty.

From Parents without partners. http://www.parentswithoutpartners.org/Support1.htm

89% of single fathers are in the work force and 77% of single mothers work.
(with 23% of single mothers not working overall poverty levels increased while overall wages decrease in the numbers for single moms.)

· The proportion of custodial parents and their children living below the poverty level declined from 33% in 1993 to 26.1% 1999.

(progress is bieng made and this is post welfare reform. This also co-incides with icnreased support enforcement)

· The percentage of custodial mother families in poverty fell from 36.8% in 1993 to 28.7%. Still 2.5 times that of custodial father families at 11.1% in 1999. ( married families below poverty levels was 6.3%).

(I am going to hazard a guess but I am guessing that msot cusotdial fathers are older and thus earn more based on work experiance and skills. This is my opinion based on how the courts genrally make a man prove a mother is unfit in custdy cases and this can take years in which the man pursue and develops a career)

59% of custodial parents have child support agreements. More custodial mothers (62.2%) have agreements than custodial fathers (39.2%).

(This number kind of backs that up. A truly dead beat mom would be unlikely to pay. Also given the pro-mother presumption of the courts single parent fathers may have a high number of widowers)

Child support is more likely received by parents with custody and visitation agreements. (84.8%)
· Over half who do not have joint custody or agreements do not receive any payments.
(this is proof postive of what I have been advocatign for years. If dad's not a crimminal then let him be a dad. Kids are not property and any relationship split that has children is not a split betwen the absent parent and the kids as well. Dads given an active role in thier kids life feel involved and are involved emotionally and as it turns out fiancially)

· 59.1% of all custodial parents receive at least one type of noncash support. Nearly two-thirds (65.4%) with child support agreements receive noncash support.
(Kepp dad involved and poverty declines)


Single mothers are more prone to poverty becuase the court system and society do not fully apreicate the role men play in child rearing. Children with dad around do better in every measurable area. This is not to deny the role of mothers but rather to point out that it takes 2 active loving parents. When mom has to go it alone we should encourag emen to stay active in thier kids (not hers) life. Instead for far to many dads visitation is a ream and support is a bill not a blessing.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 194
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/5/2006 9:51:14 PM

Well, we are part of Western society, but we are the only industrialized nation, besides Australia, that doesn't provide paid leave for new mothers. Evidently we value giving birth, but not taking care of the baby.


if we valued giivng birth abortion would be illegal
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 195
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/6/2006 5:00:37 AM

Single mothers are more prone to poverty becuase the court system and society do not fully apreicate the role men play in child rearing. Children with dad around do better in every measurable area. This is not to deny the role of mothers but rather to point out that it takes 2 active loving parents. When mom has to go it alone we should encourag emen to stay active in thier kids (not hers) life. Instead for far to many dads visitation is a ream and support is a bill not a blessing.

Education is the key in all areas:
we make it too easy to quit school = poverty and unprotected sex
too easy to do drugs = high and sex , I can't think straight enough to say NO
too easy to get a FREE out of jail card = punishment of underage adults is minimal at best
too easy to have an abortion = 'nough said
There is a vicious never ending circle that abortion does not and will not end... Anyone who thinks abortion is the way out for young inner city women is not from the inner city and knows not of what they are talking about... A theory that abortion is a cure for all is talking out of the proverbial backside... Not only are there kids out there that are not educated enough to not become pregnant but adults too and the adults should know better but when we have unsafe sex how does that bode for the youth... Making men pay monetarily and not with their time is utter nonsense too... There is more to becoming a father then plainting a seed then on to the next playing field and it can also be said that some women use sex and pregnancy to trap a man only to have it backfire in their face when the men takes off... Abortion is not the answer it is part of the problem...


Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 196
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/6/2006 5:13:54 AM

#1 reason: I am just not ready to be a mother. #2 I can't afford a baby #3 I need to finish school #4 Bad relationship with father.

Answers to:
#1 These same girls were ready and willing to do an adult act then abort their bad decision... Education and responsibility is the key not a get out of jail card (abortion)...
#2 If we can say that and abort then what if we already have a child should we be able to simply abort them at any time we can't afford them?? gezzzzzzzus can't afford.. Sounds like education and being responsible for ones actions comes back into play...
#3 There are far too many ways to complete an education to justify an abortion or are you talking "I want to go to the prom"...
#4 There seems to have been a relationship already established eh? Or again we use the get out of jail card (abortion)...

Seems we are more willing to abort mistakes instead of living with them, key word, living... Life is a wonderful wonderful experience when we allow it to be...
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 197
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/6/2006 6:44:03 AM
That's a crock, ATR. There may be in certain areas, but you won't find enough resources where they really are needed. Further, your demeaning remark "I want to go to the prom" is proof positive that you fail to even comhrehend the issues faced by young, pregnant teenagers. There problems and concerns are REAL. It means the difference of welfare stamps and college. and here you are, reducing their fears and concerns to a prom? That is evident that you do not live in the real world, and I'm not going to waste my time discussing glib, disparaging remarks about the truth of the matter, and why abortions happen.

I stand by my remarks that there are more ways to complete an education then to use abortion as the way out... I could as easily have said "that's a crock" and as silly an excuse as I have ever heard for an abortion to complete an education... Many many women and men complete their education well into their adult lives using education as an excuse to get an abortion is ludicrous... I know black women who go to school and work and raise their children and these same women are stronger for their experience and make better role models then a woman who chooses abortion to finish school... gezzzzzzzsus that is asinine

This comment of yours is proof that you want to use pregnancy as a form of punishment to a young woman. Furthermore, what would you consider an 'established' relationship? A 15 year old girl who sleeps with an 18 year old boy, who ups and leaves her once she is found to be pregnant? Because, ATR, you find these cases happen at alarming rates. I wonder why it's only abortion, or the 'man's say' that you are concerned about. Seems to me they have a say already. They walk.

Don't assume that I want to use keeping a young woman pregnant as punishment. Those are your words and how your thought process... I am telling them to be responsible and choose life not abortion. What we teach our young is take the easy way out instead of stepping up to the plate and being responsible for your actions. I see you always state the boy/man runs away.. Just a cop-out to the bottom line abortion is used far too many times for convenience not need, WALK as you say... I see only the WOMAN'S concern coming from you am I not allowed the same thought process even though my concern is for the unborn and a man's part in the equation.... Therein is the difference between us both... You cannot tie me up in one of your neatly wrapped packages. I don't fit your definition of me...

Having an abortion IS living with a mistake, contrary to your opinions, and it is taking responsbility. There is no way a woman can shirk responsibility for a pregnancy. It is within her body, she has no choice but to face it. I find it deplorable that you would think forcing pregnancy on a young girl as 'punishment'. It is barbaric. Not to mention barbaric to the fetus whose only claim to life was as a punishment to it's mother for having sex and conceiving it.

Abortion is shirking your responsibility there is no two ways about it... I find it just as deplorable that you would think abortion is the answer and not the problem...I find it is barbaric to end a life before it had the chance to flourish and live as we already are lucky enough to do... Life is not a punishment its a blessing and miracle that we should embrace not toss out with the trash like an unwanted toy... Who in this argument really is blind to reality?


I am standing over right beside DragonN on this one, and no longer wasting my time on this issue. If you entrenched yourself in the issues, you would have some understanding. Instead, you SHUT it out, all of it. Refusing to really put yourself in their position, try to understand why their fears are so great, what the troubles are they face, and try to work for a solution that way. Nah, it's much easier to disparage these kids, pooh-pooh their worries, all in an effort to preserve your point of view, however wrong it is.

You do not know me or my life style or my convictions nor do you or anyone need to understand why I make my stand only that it is my right as a human being. I give you your due and expect nothing less in return... Do you know what I do? Who I help? How I help? What kind of person I am by the actions I show and do in my community and beyond. I dare say all you do is try to break someone down when they disagree with your views.. Your PROOF statements are not working with me I am my own man and live with my principals intact no matter HOW you try to twist the truth about me and my ideals... Your only idea of solution is abortion show me where you have stated otherwise then if you do show my why you are not then being hypocritical?


Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 198
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/6/2006 6:54:24 AM
epsilonbj, my friend...
The problem with the western culture is we no longer work together for the best of everyone we break off thinking of only ourselves... I can remember that if I did something wrong I not only was punished at home but the neighbors would get on me too... Now if you yell at someones kid or try to teach them right from wrong your villainized as being nosey or out of touch and treated like a cancer... Some web we weave eh bro?

Have a nice day
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 199
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/6/2006 7:17:53 AM

I'll reserve my response for a more worthwhile endeavor. At this point, it is neither proactive nor conducive to a real solution to argue the meritless points of punishment for accidental pregnancy.

Accidental Pregnancy...
A term invented for lack of better words, not being responsible enough to live with the consequences of your actions...Intentional or not...
I rest my case

Have a nice day

"Doing my part to piss off those with no morals" and I am winning
 atrkyhntr™
Joined: 12/20/2005
Msg: 200
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Abortions soon to become illegal again
Posted: 3/6/2006 7:30:58 AM
hmnmnm I wonder how many abortions have wiped some much needed branches off the family tree??
I love how my family and that of my X all help with the children no matter how large or small the issue... We also have a wealth of friends who are there at the drop of a hat no matter the time day or night... Glad we chose life not abortion... Even in hard times, when I had no income due to recovering from surgery, except for a few days short of a year, did I allow myself to think how easy it would be if I did not have my children who depend on me and the baby who was due that coming fall... Abortion never entered my mind as a solution to my problem. I, and my wife, did not walk....

Have a nice day
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