Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Australia  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 sparticuss
Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 23
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?Page 2 of 2    (1, 2)
This was featured on SBS last week.

Not featured was a reders digest case from a few years back about a burns victim.

A serious one.

Despite the pain killers changing his dressing was like being skinned alive but, because the guy was so badly hurt he could only communicate his pain by facial expression.


The most disturbing one on SBS was a woman who had gone through agaony beating cancer. She was clean but there was a big risk that the cancer would come back.

So she went to Mexico to buy some illegal euthenasia drugs and then chickened out on bringing them back.

Where this was disturbing was the whole scene. She had no advice about beating the cancer again if it recurred. NO up to the minite advice on advances in medicine. She WASNT a death waiting to happen.

But she still bought the drugs.

If euthenasia is indtoduced, as a legal option, but requiring medical, and possibly, court approval, then that will keep the damn cowboys out of the whole scene.
 grease monkey73
Joined: 12/1/2006
Msg: 24
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:07:08 AM
if someone chooses to die before they become a burden on their familys and friends shouldnt they have the choice to do so without the comments of those around them who havent been thru their suffering and pain with after years of drooling and spitting up blood feeling like shit being unable to see those around them and in a vegge state of mind not knowing one day from the next shouldnt they have the right to ended it ...
 naamah3incognito
Joined: 1/6/2007
Msg: 25
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/6/2007 6:54:34 PM
Seeing as euthanasia started to come up on the 'should drugs be legal' thread I thought I'd switch to this one.

From the posts already here I see there are several circumstances being discussed...

...people actually being resuscitated and/or kept alive by machines but unable to communicate and having relatives left wondering whether to switch the machines off. Most people seem to say that they would want their life ended in that circumstance. I suspect I would too.

....and people with serious injuries or physical limitations reducing any chance of ever having quality of life who are asking to die. And my heart goes out to Maree12 in message 6 on that point.

...and people in pain from terminal illness wanting to have the process shortcutted and also asking to die but too weak to do it themselves,or at least needing assistance.

Such terrible situations, all of them. The latter two would necessitate someone actively killing that person rather than flicking a switch, so the issues are more compounded. It might entail assisted suicide where you simply assist and be with someone ending their own life (still illegal) or where you actually end their life yourself. And sh1t, in a practical sense how hard would that be...I mean, ask yourself, not just would you do it, but what METHODS would you be comfortable using to kill someone you love even if they have asked you to? That's a big and hard question.

I saw a woman on TV the other night whose mother had a very distressing illness with no hope for recovery. The daughter injected a high dose of morphine intending to end her mother's life, but it didn't work. She then suffocated her with a pillow. Can you imagine finding yourself in that position? Terrible terrible situation. She actively campaigned for legalising euthanasia in NZ thereafter, wanting doctors to be able to end life for people like her Mum rather than have family members ever faced with doing that sort of thing for their loved ones. She wrote a book, and as a result was jailed for what she did. My heart went out to her too.

I have never been in this position myself. My husband never once expressed a wish to die, quite the opposite actually. As each stage of physical degradation befell him I waited for it with dread, for the day he might ask that of me. I would have done whatever he wanted me to do. Having been there I can say that with absolute certainty. And he knew it too. But all he wanted to do was live on. Had you asked him two years prior, before this became his reality, whether he would want to live if he couldn't move his own head and legs, had to be bathed and carried around, vomitted shit, had to wear a nappy, had a catheter, had a pain relief permanent feed in his leg, and all of that degradation, I'm sure he would have said, nope, kill me if I get like that. But when he was there, when that was his lot, he wanted to live.

And as for quality of life...well a few days before he died there was a massive storm and he asked to be taken outside to watch it, which he did, with a rapturous expression on his face. And he had periods of playing computer games from bed and singing and laughing up to the last day of his life. I must say it changed my views somewhat. I am not against euthanasia, very for it in fact, but what stunned me was how strong the will to live was, and how the opinion of an able bodied person on what would be acceptable as quality of life may not necesarily or automatically be the perspective of the person who is there at that time. It's not safe to assume we know how we'll feel when we get there.

At face value I would say that any law that causes someone like that poor NZ woman to go to jail for what she did for her Mum is ridiculous. But then it's never been that simple has it. What if someone can't communicate to you that they do want to die now... how do you know they want to die? Even if they expressed that opinion at another time in their life - remembering that perspectives can change. What if they changed their mind once they got there but couldn't tell you? Or what if they are on morphine which doesn't leave them lucid and is causing them to think in strange ways? And what about someone who would euthanise Mum in the blink of an eye for the inheritance, or because they just couldn't be bothered with the effort of any care she may need? And people like that are out there. If it were legal, would they get away with murder? So it starts to get very subjective, and the legislators would have to take all of these sorts of possibilities into account in trying to draft a law to suit. No wonder it's not so simple.

Oh, and can I just say to all those who worry about being a burden on those they love...I see that so differently. To have someone trust you enough that you want to, and will, care for them through the hard times is a privelege for the one doing the looking after. Of course we hope these sorts of situations never happen but if they do, that trust you put in another person to care for you at your most vulnerable, is a gift, not a burden. And they get to keep that gift when they eventually lose you. Seriously. I'm so not the nurse-y type, but I was blown away by that degree of trust and intimacy. If you want to choose not to live because of pain/incapacity that you can't bear that's your right, but don't be motivated to leave because you think you are a burden on people who love you.
 rustymky
Joined: 1/31/2007
Msg: 27
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/6/2007 8:48:45 PM
...naamah....your strength is a inspiration to us all..........

My heart goes out to you................

 naamah3incognito
Joined: 1/6/2007
Msg: 28
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/6/2007 9:12:53 PM
Oh god guys...not at all, nothing anyone wouldn't do in that situation....I feel really awkward & embarassed now...and so she cleverly changes the subject....so, how about those Broncos, huh....
 Sam591four1
Joined: 1/4/2007
Msg: 30
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/7/2007 5:02:42 PM
Hi naamah. I aree with what you said.
My father had a severe stroke in Septtember 1999, which left him at deaths door. The doctors couldn`t give him hope that he`d make the end of the day.
For two years he was in a nursing home with around the clock care. He couldn`t talk or move any part of his body, he couldn`t even lift his head and Mum would be there with him every single day. Eight years later, he`s back home. He slowly shuffles around with a walking frame, he eats purated food and thickend fluids, his speach is very slured, he needs toiletry and bathing help. My father was a fit strong man that worked hard every day and never had a sick day in his life. Back then when he was well and he`d see someone with a disability through sickness or injuries, he used to tell me that he would rather die than to live like that. My Mother cares for him at home, I see him almost every day and so does my sister. Even thou his body is broken, he is still fit and strong on the inside and his will to live is stronger than ever.
We can all just speculate on what we would do if we faced in makeing a very difficult decision, but the will to live is very powerfull and even though our decision to terminate the agony of a loved one is based on the love we have for them, it would be wrong. That his there greatest hour of need and that`s when they need our love more than any other time. they need their loved ones close when their time comes, because without their loved ones their death would bee a very lonely death. And who are the Bronos ?
 naamah3incognito
Joined: 1/6/2007
Msg: 31
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/7/2007 6:13:21 PM
Hey Sam,

So pleased to hear your Dad has defied the odds that were stacked against him, and is back in his home with you all. And good on your Mum for sticking with it.

I don't necessarily think euthanasia is "wrong" though. I would do it for a loved one if asked. But just that in cases as you've said with your Dad, we can't assume it's always the right decision unless they can say right now that's what they want.

The Broncos are a football team. I'm not even sure if it's football season, that was merely me trying to deflect my pathetic sense of awkwardness at that moment.
 saltytowers
Joined: 1/28/2007
Msg: 32
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/7/2007 10:16:26 PM
Good poem Longte on how it is to be in a coma

For me?

Pull the plug......then watch as I take a breath by myself
If I am breathing..leave me alone..I'll pull through

If not...
CTR-ALT-DEL

I dont like being stuck in a body that wont cooperate
Rather move on
 joyce1000
Joined: 1/25/2007
Msg: 33
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/17/2007 11:44:55 PM
.For me i would rather go out with dignity and grace surrounded by family not just kept going by machine and waiting for the inevitable to happen to prelong my suffering and the suffering of my loved ones who see me just as a vegetable .

I agree. First i am not trying to push my opinion on anybody. This is such a personal and difficult choice i think it should be left up to the individual. I do have personal experience in this area though. First mine happened in the U.S not Australia. So my advice may not be correct for your country. To start with get yourself an advance directive. This is a form you can get at your hospital. Determine what your wishes are and under which circumstances. This is a legal document so that you make the decision not a relative. Many things are to be considered. Is this a terminal illness or an illness that can be healed? Is it depression are you in the right state of mind? There may be religious issues involved ? My personal experience was with my mom.

My mom suffered a stroke in 1996. She was paralyzed but had the use of her right arm and was able to talk and swallow. In 2001 i went through extreme marriage problems. My husband abandoned me with $ 5 in my wallet . He was pissed off at a client and stupid me actually answered him back which was not the wisest decision for me to do, but at the time i was sick. So i had no choice but to go to my parents because i had very little food, my gas was cut off and as far as food i had 1/2 box of cereal. To make a long story short, my dad told me he would not take care of me. Here i was, no job, sick and $ 5 in my pocket and my dad was unwilling to help me out. Fortunately my sister was there to support me. I talked to my dad and told him, i cant believe you dont support your own daughter. You have treated me like shit your entire life but cant you for once help me out. Well he screamed and yelled at me calling me a stupid ****ing ****, blah blah. When i got home i got my clothes and went back to my house eventhough i had no gas, no hot water and it was extremely cold at the time. I told my mom i never would visit her again because i never wanted to see that son of a **** again.

It was my pride and inability to forgive that caused her to have her next stroke. I was called by my dad 2 weeks later. I rushed to the hospital. The doctor in the emergency room said he didnt know how long she would live, a few hours, days, weeks? She was transferred to another hospital. Once there i was told her Aetna Medicare Golden Plan would not cover the nursing home she was supposed to be transferred to. I said wait a second she just got transferred from another hospital and you want to dump her again? She was admitted Monday morning. I was forced to run all over town to beg at government agencies to get medi-cal. Because her insurance told me they would not cover it. I took out the brochure it said nursing home was covered. They told me it is but only if she had a goal. I told them your ****ing crazy her goal is to die. At this point she was totally paralyzed, she could not even swallow or move her fingers or toes. She was put on an iv solution that was the only food she got. While i was running all over town my mom was all by herself. It was Thursday before my brother & sister showed up. They had to find transportation to come over from Europe. We never saw a doctor except during the emergency room. We were never informed about anything at all. We must have the ****ing worst health care in the whole world. Then i came in Friday morning and they told me my mom was being discharged. I said wait a second where is she going? They send her to a nursing home 1 1/4 hrs away. They told me to go to the bank and get money. The policy paid for ambulance but somehow they didnt pay for ours, because she wasnt sick enough. I couldnt believe my ears. I said she s not sick enough? She s dying for crying out loud.

Never mind she was transferred when we got another shock. they took her off the iv solution. We were forced to sign a document. To make a very long story short, my mom died of thirst and starvation. And it took her two weeks to do so. She was holding on to life so much. It then suddenly hit me. She didnt want to leave me alone. So i tried to contact my husband on his cellphone. First he didnt answer for days. When he did answer i asked to talk with him and i asked him to tell my mom that he would take care of me for the rest of my life. I told him i dont care what you do afterwards i dont need any of your money just leave. And he did. The next day my mom went into a coma that was Wednesday. She died Friday night. It was the worst 2 weeks of my life so i know all about a loved one dying and i think euthanasia should be a personal choice not other peoples opinions forced upon you. My mom eventually died with her loved ones around her. We even sang some songs to her and i could tell she was still aware because she cried. Once our medi-cal was approved they said they would put her on a feeding tube. At this point she didnt have food or fluid for over a week and we decided to let her die. I mean what kind of life would she have had?
 Avocado
Joined: 5/21/2007
Msg: 34
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/5/2008 2:32:07 AM
Although I agree, in principle with euthanasia, I don't think it's for anyone but the recipient to decide. I don't think any persons (family) or group (doctors) should have the right to decide if a person lives or dies.
 whitegold765
Joined: 12/26/2007
Msg: 36
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/5/2008 5:16:36 AM

I find it intresting that none of you would let your pet loved one suffer but it's ok to let your human lovedone suffer the pain and insufferable shit that goes with the same illnesses.

Err... I don't think anyone has said that. They've said that the will to live in their loved one was so strong that they refused to die.

Personally my perspective is pretty irrelevant. I can only speak from stories I've heard. There is a woman in France campaigning parliament right now for the right to end her own life. She's got a rare form of cancer which started in her sinuses. She lost the ability to hear as the inoperable tumours destroyed her ear cavities. I believe she can no longer speak (but I could be wrong), and tumours have invaded her eye sockets, rendering her blind. She's deaf, blind, and hideously deformed, by tumours which have bulged out parts of her face to monstrous proportions. She's in constant pain, regularly swelling to 3 or 4 hour periods of intense agony.

All she wants to do is end her suffering. I don't think anyone can say she doesn't have that right.

I'm a big supporter of Euthanasia under certain circumstances. There are people dying of hideous and untreatable diseases, wracked with pain, and suffering terribly. They are completely lucid, and utterly capable of making their own decisions. These people should be allowed the peace they want, and I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to try to stop them. (Except, of course, religious reasons.)

There are other calls that are harder. People on life support, etc. It may well be their will, but it's awful hard to find that out for sure. I'd want to go too. But I wouldn't want to make that decision on someone else's behalf.
 Naamah
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 37
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/5/2008 5:56:26 AM
^^^ None of you? Mafato I don't think it's OK to let a person suffer if they've had enough. I totally support a person's right to be granted an assisted death, and I very much believe in the theory of euthanasia, and in my case I would have done whatever my husband asked of me. Anything.

But what I was trying to illustrate with my first post on this thread was that us healthy bodied folk should show extreme caution with assuming what we think sick people will automatically want. As a healthy man my husband wouldn't have wanted to live an incapacitated life. No way. In fact our first day in the chemo ward he saw this really really sick woman in a wheelchair, and he said...I never want to live like that. But when he was there, he only wanted to live despite the horrible things he was enduring. His thinking was a total surprise to me. And that thinking didn't waver, through every stage of shutting down, right to the end. And I mean right to the end... one of the last things he said to me was "Don't you give up on me", shortly before he drifted off to sleep and then never woke up. My friend whose husband recently died of cancer was the same despite being almost totally incapacitated, experiencing pain, and requiring assisted breathing. He said he didn't want to die. If your girls said they wanted to live, despite suffering, would you want them euthanased? And that indeed might be what they want when they are in that moment, even if they don't think so right now. And hey, I myself think I wouldn't want to live like that...but after seeing how he was with it, I wonder if I would after all... I guess, the whole experience just threw what I thought I was once so sure of, way out of kilter.

As far as animals go, what was always a hard enough decision before, became even harder after what I saw of that overwhelming desire to live no matter what. It makes me even more cautious when I face a decision to euthanase an animal who cannot communicate their wishes to me except through their eyes and demeanour. I won't euthanase until I am as certain as I can possibly be that they have had enough of life. It's quite agonising trying to distinguish between that and my feelings of not wanting to watch them suffer...because it's my belief that such a decision should always be about what they want. Sometimes it's extremely difficult to be sure, and no doubt it always will be. I am facing it with a very sick pet duck at the moment. I just hate it.
 whitegold765
Joined: 12/26/2007
Msg: 38
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/5/2008 7:18:39 AM
Animals are always a difficult choice. We don't want them to suffer, but we want them to live. How much suffering is acceptable? Slight hip pain on cold mornings? Constant agony? There's no right or wrong and no easy choices.

My mum recently visited her old dog, that she left with friends when she moved interstate. The dog was ours as a puppy, and even as a fully grown dog (and a German Shepard, mind you) thought it was appropriate to sit on my lap. She was a fun, silly, smart, and lovely young dog.

My mum saw her again, now 14 years old. In human years I think we worked it out to something like 94. She's got constant pain from hip dyplasia and now gets pain killers in her evening ice cream.

Yes, they feed her ice cream. How tragic is that?

My mum watched sadly as this once spry dog stare balefully at the two steps she needed to navigate to get back inside. She wondered if maybe there wasn't much time left for the poor girl, and if it wasn't time soon to take her for a trip to the Vet. She remarked as much to her friends, the new owners.

Who somewhat sheepishly informed her that the silly old girl had been down at the park that evening, chasing pigeons around. The next day she was happily playing with a leaf. (She doesn't distinguish between leaves and sticks, and expects you to throw the leaf.)

The only real point to this is that life is precious and it's hard to make that judgement on behalf of another animal. Some of the things that are important to us, like dignity, are relatively meaningless to a dog. They have no shame, no inflated sense of their own importance.
 Naamah
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 39
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/5/2008 8:21:23 AM

The only real point to this is that life is precious and it's hard to make that judgement on behalf of another animal. Some of the things that are important to us, like dignity, are relatively meaningless to a dog. They have no shame, no inflated sense of their own importance.

I like the way you phrased that sentiment Whitegold. I wonder if perhaps that's more the state of acceptance/being that some people reach when they find themselves very ill and actually let go of how important they once thought it was to be young and strong and independent? Certainly I saw no shame on my husband's face at any stage, and yet I, as a healthy person, anticipated and dreaded that it would be there. I was wrong. And yes indeed, life is very precious, to all who have it.

This duck of mine, she's not eating, and for weeks now I have been feeding a tube down her throat every day to fill her crop with bird formula. She hates it with a passion and it sucks to do it to her, and I have my moments where I think well that's not what life as a duck is meant to be about...but it's letting her live. It is giving her enough energy to walk around a little bit, and swim (and bite me when I feed her, which is what she seems to save most of her energy for) and hopefully the vet can work out how to fix her in the meantime.
 JulietJuliet
Joined: 6/7/2007
Msg: 40
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:33:07 PM

I think euthanasia occurs more than we know.
.....Exactly. I knew of a person who died from a melanoma. The guy was in a hospice and was 'offered' the needle. His family gathered on the day of administration and the guy felt on top of the world so he declined the needle. Two days later he died a restless horrible death (his sister was with him). She saw how he died (a natural death) and to this day she still see's his dying face.
I have seen dying people happy and I have seen dying people who just want things to end. It all falls back to the individuals choice. If a dying person is unable to communicate and let their feelings be known then I really wouldn't know what the hell to think. It's a tough one.
 InSydney
Joined: 3/14/2007
Msg: 41
view profile
History
euthanasia /murder or mercy killing?
Posted: 3/7/2008 7:49:34 PM
Some elderly people don't want to be a burden on their loved ones and that's one of the main reasons why they ask to be "put out of their misery" when their health deterioates so much that it causes them severe and on-going pain. I think we have an obligation to make it clear that to those same people that keeping them alive is not a burden to us while they still have a reasonably good quality of life. We also have an obligation to grant their wishes if they don't want to live any longer when their life becomes more painful than joyful. Keeping somebody alive for no other reason than because we are emotionally attached to them is just cruel.
Show ALL Forums  > Australia  >