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 AUTHOR
 ur_addiction
Joined: 11/6/2008
Msg: 351
abuse of authorityPage 15 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)

I was there but you lost me with the bread man. That's food and food is a necessary item for life so that dude/dudette that steals food he has no reason to be in any society and that means execution. Why waste funds on someone who is trying to force you into starvation.



So are you saying you think that somone who steals food bc they are poor and have no money etc, should be cast away? Or are you disagreeing?

If its the first one then wow, I guess you don't have compassion. Maybe It because I know people who came from countries like Sudan, where they were poor and did steal to live, that Is why I show some leancy and compassion for the poor and needy. Im not say stealing is right in any case, but wow man. Have some heart!
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 352
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 8:10:53 AM
Stealing because you are poor is not an excuse to steal. If people want to live that way and you can justify that lifestyle, then send them back to the countries they ran away from. In this country it is expected that people (children) attend school, get an education and then get a job and look after themselves in law abiding ways. Now for the people who come here, its expected that they live by our laws - you know the laws of Canada. If you dont like it, dont come here.

I'm sure if you ran a store and expected to make your living by selling your merchandise, you would not accept the line "they stole because they are poor and have no money" Where would your compassion be when you could not feed your kids or look after yourself because of all of the "compassion" you were expected to extend? Your compassion would run you into bankruptcy.

This was a little tongue in cheek.
 OhNoItsDano
Joined: 11/3/2008
Msg: 353
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 8:48:23 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Which part was tongue and which part was cheek?? lol
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 354
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 12:19:18 PM
sue: I'm pretty sure that she was referring to people who stole food because they had no food when they were in Sudan, not (as you seem to have taken it) come to Canada and steal food because they are poor. So no need to send those bread stealing foreigners home because they ain't stealing bread from Canadians, eh?
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 355
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 8:42:03 PM
Awwwwwwwww..............................Danooooooo....................................

And here I thought you would have figured it all out.....................

I thought you knew me better than that............................




And I'm just gonna ingore the other comment......................

Way 2 funny...............
 Refinedsillyguy
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 356
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 9:39:04 PM
Sure stealing is wrong. But some people in this world are denied the natural free rights, others are born with.
If u put yourself in there shoes. Did what you could to feed you family. Who, your not going to let starve. Cause of some technicality...

Get out of that country, try to get your feet on the ground, and abide by Canadian rules, and laws.

I'm sure you would expect some compassion, And help from Canadians.
2 wrongs never make a right..

So thats what we do with ppl nowadays. They dont make the grade. Throw them out of the country, rather than help them cause they were needy..

Look at all the people living in Winnipeg, that are willing to work. But can't get into an address cause they broke.. How they supposed to get a job.. Even labour ready would second look them..
And they not stealing, they rummaging through trash..

Soo here the question...

Would u rather live on the street, go through trash. And not steal. Cause we all know stealing wrong..stay living in Canada..

or

Steal, get your feet on the ground. Get a job. Get place. And get deported cause they stole...
 ur_addiction
Joined: 11/6/2008
Msg: 357
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 9:46:06 PM

Stealing because you are poor is not an excuse to steal. If people want to live that way and you can justify that lifestyle, then send them back to the countries they ran away from. In this country it is expected that people (children) attend school, get an education and then get a job and look after themselves in law abiding ways. Now for the people who come here, its expected that they live by our laws - you know the laws of Canada. If you dont like it, dont come here.

I'm sure if you ran a store and expected to make your living by selling your merchandise, you would not accept the line "they stole because they are poor and have no money" Where would your compassion be when you could not feed your kids or look after yourself because of all of the "compassion" you were expected to extend? Your compassion would run you into bankruptcy.

This was a little tongue in cheek.



WOW....I guess SOMEONE didnt read that part where I BLUNTLY STATED, " Im not saying that stealing is okay in any case"

And THANKS ROMANTIC :D , you are right I was not talking about ppl coming to our country and stealing to survive......(but dont call them bread stealing foreigners)

I think you should read what I wrote, one more time lady. And yeah totally, ignore Romantics comment bc he pretty much pointed out the fact that you took what I said totally wrong !!!!, but yaa go ahead Ignore it!!! *rolls eyes**I so much dislike ppl whom ignore when they are proven wrong or someone points out they are miss informed.

ANYWAYS....lets say I WAS talking about them coming to our country and then stealing bc they are poor, i still woudlnt think that was right..but "send them to the countires they came ran from" WOW, just WOW. that comment has made me SICK and very hurt. YOU DISGUST ME LADY! Hey want to know WHY they fled from thier countires??? It may be bc, at the age of like 5 , they are forced to join the military and shoot ppl (civilians also) , Hmmm women are raped, and well usually the cops thier arent so honest and lawful , thats just some reasons. Diffent reasons different countries. But yeah F them who cares right???? ....Once agian I NEVER said it was OKAY or AN EXCUSE!! just have some what of a heart.
 Refinedsillyguy
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 358
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 9:49:59 PM
The problem with that though, is that judges are appointed in to power.. They aren't elected. The reason for garbage sentences..

I feel it's too late to implent a change in the system that would have a signicant enough change to make it worth while. But we could start with the young generations.

Send youths to boot camp. Im sure whats his name off jerry springer could recruit some friends, and start up something here... haha..
Youths go to jail and come out worse. Building a jail for young offenders would not work..
Gang members intially seek a sense of power, and belonging.. they would have it in the military.. As there is a chain of command..
So how do we as citizens make something like this happen. Cause the government. Is too busy looking for ways to spend our money. Or fighting over who gets to take our money..

And mandatory death penalty for repeat murder offenders..well were at it..
 Dudleyh45
Joined: 8/4/2008
Msg: 359
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 10:55:51 PM
No worry, dudley. It was "irony". Think England and how the English populated much of Australia. It might help. Or read some Charles D ickens.


Wow the English! here i thought maybe you were on about some frenchman stealin' bread and cutlery or some such. Who is Charles ****ens? Is he Australian?
 Dudleyh45
Joined: 8/4/2008
Msg: 360
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/15/2008 11:28:13 PM

Now WHY would I feel guilty? (honestly I woudlnt)

I guess if you can feel good about acting as a pimp for your own sister you could feel good about beating someone to near death or more.


"Was it justified or do you pretend to justify it for your piece of mind?", what are you a philosopher now? Pfttt!!!

There are thousands or millions of people on this earth, some of them can justify, in their mind, any action they make be it good or evil.


Seems to me all you do is reply to other ppls post and bash them. You never really give your own personal opionion to what would you do if you were in the situation. So I ask you, Wtf, would yo do if somone beat the crap out of one of your chick friends for no reason (at the bar) or if somone raped her? you wouldnt find that person and kick thier ass? What would you just seriously call the cops and let them handle it 100%?

I don't recall bashing you but if that is how you perceive my posts then so be it.
What would i do? Honestly that would depend on the situation. If i was present then i would prevent the beating/rape or whatever if i was able. If it was after the fact i would see how things developed with the justice system. If that failed to meet my personal goals then justice would be mine but it would be served after simmering for a bit. You don't take revenge in a rash manner at a time when your feelings of the incident are clouding your thoughts. you do want to come away from this clean so there must be sufficient time elapsed and of course no links nor witnesses. People have accidents all the time and eventually everyone is alone at some point.
I'm far too old to have chick friends though so i don't need to worry about that.
 ur_addiction
Joined: 11/6/2008
Msg: 361
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 12:26:15 AM

guess if you can feel good about acting as a pimp for your own sister you could feel good about beating someone to near death or more.




Okay, first of all. Im finding her a man so technically I kind of am "pimping her out" (not for sex but you get it) Its a joke man, so you don't need to take lines from my profile to explain why I "believe" certain things. ... WHERE in my comment did I say i would beat somone to near dead "or more" bc I DONT believe in that!!!" so thanks for NOT reading what I said.Also the two have NOTHING in common!





There are thousands or millions of people on this earth, some of them can justify, in their mind, any action they make be it good or evil.



This is true, I agree with you on this. But in all honestly, does anyone really have the right to "justify" a certain situation? thats like the death penalty somone saying its okay to kill somone who murbered another person.(PLEASE , NO ONE even comment on this, I dont want it to start up a Crazy argument about the death penalty) I am mearly using it as an example on "justice" and what is justice?, man this is reminding me of first year Philosophy....So Ya when I asked if you were a philosopher, I was just being a smart ass.






I don't recall bashing you but if that is how you perceive my posts then so be it.
What would i do? Honestly that would depend on the situation. If i was present then i would prevent the beating/rape or whatever if i was able. If it was after the fact i would see how things developed with the justice system. If that failed to meet my personal goals then justice would be mine but it would be served after simmering for a bit. You don't take revenge in a rash manner at a time when your feelings of the incident are clouding your thoughts. you do want to come away from this clean so there must be sufficient time elapsed and of course no links nor witnesses. People have accidents all the time and eventually everyone is alone at some point.I'm far too old to have chick friends though so i don't need to worry about that.




Okay you very right on this, A LOT of ppl just act when they are angry, and ya if somone raped my buddy I would beat them, bc rape is wrong and like I cant even describe in words, but you get it im sure. So if anyone did that to my friends I would want to hurt them as much as they hurt my friend (unless my bud didnt want me going after them) . No, its not justified in all reality, but Obviously I dont care. See I can admit things :P. Yes a good choice would be to calm down and think before I acted out or others acted out. "and of course no links nor witnesses" haha thats funny ;p... So you said you would stop the rape from happening or continuing right? so how could you stop that?, most likely by applying force right, and im sure if it was someone close to you, you wouldnt have the time to think rationaly. but then agian im not you.
I just think its easy for somone to say they would react one way "calm and collective" but then in most cases if that situation arose, the person would most likely react differently. also see, you even said that if the justice didnt meet your personal needs then justice would be yours, so what would you do? ,beat them/or what? See the thing about me is I can fully admit wether or not what I do is right or wrong and I will bluntly say what I would do in a situation. also, im sure you have some lady friends your age?

But anyways, thanks for replying and not just ignoring my comment, when I called you out. I respect that about you!, and well your an older man(47year old man) Right winged and Old fashioned, also holding a gun in your pic with army pants.....SO obviously we are totally different( 21, female, bartender/ Biochem major student/ liberal/ old fashioned/new age). lol, and thus will most likely dissagree. But thanks for being respectful about it. Well except the remark about pimping out my sister. ..... ...hehe
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 362
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 8:10:13 AM
ur additions - the forums are a place where individual opinions and thoughts can be expressed. Disagreement is a natural part of conversation. However, rudeness and personal attack are not as outlined in your post #357. Romanticoptomist and I often agree to disagree and my comments to him reflected that. The comments I made in my previous post that you took exception to, had a note on the bottom that said my comments were tongue in cheek. I certainly dont have to justify my comments to you when there is no rudeness or disresspect referenced to you. I refuse to address your remarks from your lack of conversation disagreement, and debating skills.
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 363
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 9:12:16 AM
Dudley: Charles D ickens? You're kidding, right? Well, in case you're not... He wrote "The Adventures of Oliver Twist" (the book, not "Oliver", the movie), "A Christmas Carol", "the movie "Scrooge"). Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens

ur_addiction: "(but dont call them bread stealing foreigners)" - it was "irony" - we really, really need an "irony" icon on this site!

Iceland guy: Judges: Yes they're appointed, but IMHO that's a better 'system' than being elected. Judicial elections have tended to create corruption at the judicial level. The powerful 'buy' the election and 'buy' the judge and the non-powerful have little or no justice. As for "garbage sentences", see my quoted reference that shows in Canada we are increasing incarceration while the crime rate is dropping. Maybe you could be specific about these "garbage sentences" (facts are always helpful).

Youth don't "go to jail and come out worse". SOME do . MOST don't. That would be perceived as "working". Maybe you can explain why you think it isn't.

Boot camp: The UK "Borstal" system seemed to have been a success. Like boot camp and no violence. I'm still a firm believer in the benefit of education, training, community -oriented and personalized punishment, rehabilitation, reconciliation, and mercy.

I wouldn't call "Stealing' a "technicality". It's usually a "crime" of some lesser or greater degree, and usually mitigated by circumstances. For example, if a 5-year old takes a $100 bill something that doesn't belong to him we treat it differently than if a 25-year old odes the same thing. However, if the 25-year old has the mental capacity of a 7-year old, er treat it differently again. If the 25-year old claims the $100 bill was his and was previously stolen form him, we treat it differently again based on how convincing his argument is or how much evidence he provides to support his claim. If a person "steals" bread because that person is starving, we usually regard it as "theft" but act in a positive way toward the "thief" because of the extreme circumstances. I think very few of us would demands the thief be jailed, beaten, or deported for this "theft". Of course, some might, but I suspect they would want the same set of circumstances for themselves to have different results.

Here's my view: Criminal acts are criminal acts ("Sin is sin" if you believe in "sin"). Without "Law" we have anarchy, vigilantism, and the eventual rule by power,force, and violence. "Law" has no face, no mercy, no care for the person or circumstances of the act. You break the Law,you pay the price. The "human" part of the process is the consideration of the circumstances and the evaluation of mitigation. That's why we don't punish 5-year olds even if they kill another person. The "Law" says" "murder is a sin/crime". A civilized society says a 5-year old is incapable of understanding such an act and is therefore not guilty of the act. The "Law" doesn't say, "It's OK to kill someone". It says, "It's wrong to kill someone" and the human side of the equation says, "and if you are five you cannot be found guilty of even such an act by virtue of your age and inability to comprehend the nature of the act."
HTH
 Refinedsillyguy
Joined: 5/4/2008
Msg: 364
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 4:52:52 PM
Yes a child/youth gets treated different than a adult would. Which can create many problems throughout the system.

They receive little to no sentence. Couple years maybe for murder. Gang members become more isolated in prisons, Or on the street. And have less involvement that can be traced back to them. Yet they still have the same influence. Without the kids. They have to go do the dirty work.
Cause kids see you can steal, and get a slap on the wrist.
In Winnipeg, we have kids running over cops, while there grand parents push the buttons on the automated telephone message. Checking if their home.

And no we dont punish 5 year olds.
I never mentioned 5 year olds. But youths. over 13.. That's a different story.
They have crime increasing, Just because they arent reported n the paper. doesnt mean they happen.
You don't think for a second, Government controls statistics published in the paper, to fit their political agenda....?
Crime in Canada is on the rise. Compared from couple years ago.

And the criminal's are getting younger. Cause they get away with almost anything..
At one point we will trouble drawing the line, where we as citizens stand in disciplinary actions towards the youths.

Well nothing has changed since couple hundred years AD. In terms of government.

Wealthy have power, influence, and control. And that is the balance of life. The unfortunite motivation to be succesful in today's society.

So is there a way to introduce a public voting system for judges.? with 6 month terms.?

I like Harpers removing federal funding for political parties. That rule applies to him also. Less Government involvment is more.
The more freedom that is handed back to the people, The more legal system will be about justice, rather than peoples jobs, and employment numbers..

It sucks to say it.. but it is the truth...
 ur_addiction
Joined: 11/6/2008
Msg: 365
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 9:52:47 PM

ur additions - the forums are a place where individual opinions and thoughts can be expressed. Disagreement is a natural part of conversation. However, rudeness and personal attack are not as outlined in your post #357. Romanticoptomist and I often agree to disagree and my comments to him reflected that. The comments I made in my previous post that you took exception to, had a note on the bottom that said my comments were tongue in cheek. I certainly dont have to justify my comments to you when there is no rudeness or disresspect referenced to you. I refuse to address your remarks from your lack of conversation disagreement, and debating skills.


Well, I alreadsy know what forums are on here for and I KNOW that everyone will not agree with me. SO dont want to reply bc of my "lack of conversational disagreement" and "debating skills" Well My WHOLE comment was i disagreement and you can either explain your case or comment back on my comments about the reasons they fled thier comuntry etc.....BUT NOOOO theres nothing for you to reply to. And well as for my debating skills, I think they are damn good. I read what you said, quoted it (and didnt take anything wrong , unlike YOU did in my previous post) I also stated what I belived and left it open for your reply :P hahaha.

As for my "rudeness and personal attack" ? what the ONE time I said you "disgust me" lmao, its true ...Kinda wanted to throw up knowing there are ppl like you out there who could care LESS about thoes in war torn /poor countries( ANYONE who feels that way makes me want to vomit, not just you). ....and the part about where you say " I certainly dont have to justify my comments to you when there is no rudeness or disresspect referenced to you" True No rudeness or deissrespect, BUT...the comment WAS about ME. I made a comment and you took it wrong and he was telling you that it was wrong. IM INVOLVED!!!! ...haha OMG anyways w/e dont reply haha and hey I disagree with A lot of ppl, like dudley in our previous conversation, BUT I respect that he commented back and bc he did that I read what he said and actually took it into concideration....something you seem to not be able to do lol......man these personal attacks suck eh? Ill stop now.
 Dudleyh45
Joined: 8/4/2008
Msg: 366
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 10:40:58 PM

WHERE in my comment did I say i would beat somone to near dead "or more" bc I DONT believe in that!!!" so thanks for NOT reading what I said.


That near death thing i just threw in for good measure. Experience has taught me that sometimes we go too far and unwittingly do more than we intended.


But in all honestly, does anyone really have the right to "justify" a certain situation? thats like the death penalty somone saying its okay to kill somone who murbered another person.(PLEASE , NO ONE even comment on this, I dont want it to start up a Crazy argument about the death penalty) I am mearly using it as an example on "justice" and what is justice?, man this is reminding me of first year Philosophy....So Ya when I asked if you were a philosopher, I was just being a smart ass.


Some of us have to "justify" certain things every day in order to lessen our feelings of guilt. Is this not what Boethius meant when he said "Those who do ill shall suffer more if they are not caught than those that are"?


So you said you would stop the rape from happening or continuing right? so how could you stop that?, most likely by applying force right, and im sure if it was someone close to you, you wouldnt have the time to think rationaly. but then agian im not you.


I would try to prevent it first by identifying the potential for the situation and either allieviating the situation or escaping it. If prevention and diplomacy don't work then by whatever means necessary including, if necessary and unavoidable, deadly force.
If you do not think in a fight you set yourself up to lose that fight, in time you can rely on experience to help but ya the hardest part is staying calm with a body filled with an adrenaline/testosterone****ail.


your an older man(47year old man) Right winged and Old fashioned, also holding a gun in your pic with army pants.....SO obviously we are totally different( 21, female, bartender/ Biochem major student/ liberal/ old fashioned/new age). lol,


We're both old fashioned so maybe we arent so different after all, and we both need the same sustenance so ya we're actually a lot alike. Ha ha

Am i a philosopher? No but then again arent we all if we all ponder our lives and our place in the world or universe? I have no real idea about that as i only have a grade 9 edjubication. My friend Socrates says "The only thing i know is that i know nothing" i would tend to agree with him except i havent decided how he knew that much if he truly knew nothing.
 Dudleyh45
Joined: 8/4/2008
Msg: 367
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 10:52:06 PM

Dudley: Charles D ickens? You're kidding, right? Well, in case you're not... He wrote "The Adventures of Oliver Twist" (the book, not "Oliver", the movie), "A Christmas Carol", "the movie "Scrooge"). Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens


So he wasn't Australian then?
Sorry but i find him rather dry, he comes just short of my great expectations of him so i'll leave him to the madding crowd. I prefer short stories anyways with my add so i'll take****nson over****ns thank you.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 368
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 11:09:58 PM

Sure stealing is wrong. But some people in this world are denied the natural free rights, others are born with.


I'm curious, just exactly what are " natural free rights" ?? We are thinking/intelligent animals ( ok jury may still be out on this point ), we form societies, and these societies evolve rights of their citizens. The "rights" aren't a naturally occuring thing, they are decided, debated, and selected. Thus the US had slavery for a time, then it was decided by the majority that slavery was wrong, and the system "corrected" itself. Later it was decided that blacks could vote, marry caucasians, attend the same schools etc etc. These rights weren't a natural phenomenon.

"Natural free rights" is a fallacy, as is "animal rights".
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 369
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 11:11:49 PM

2 wrongs never make a right..


True, but neither does 1 wrong, hence if someone punched you in the face I'm sure you would retaliate, or at least have the authorities intervene in some way. Turning the other cheek only works if the other person thinks as you do.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 370
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/16/2008 11:15:57 PM

Youths go to jail and come out worse.


OK then I guess the solution is to not let them out once incarcerated.



Building a jail for young offenders would not work..


It works in some cases. If it doesn't work it is because the offender is making the wrong choices, and will eventually pay the consequences. Maybe the solution is a work camp/boot camp in some remote location, so if they want to escape they can go, and die in the wilderness....

What do you suggest we do with them? Just tel them they're being bad and send them on their way?
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 371
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/17/2008 1:38:38 AM

Yes a child/youth gets treated different than a adult would.
You say that like it's a Bad Thing. Most societies that blaim they are civilised tend to also have different justice requirements and processes for children, youth, and adults. Given that those three groups function differently in the world around them, it makes perfect sense. If you think it's a Bad Thing, could you tell us why -- other than "it sucks". Thanks.

Which can create many problems throughout the system.
Which are? I mean if there's "many" of them you'd have some proof of "some" of them actually occurring, yes? Then bring it on.

They receive little to no sentence.
They? Who? Children? Definitely no sentences - they aren't capable of committing a crime and thus cannot be punished for one. Youth? Sentencing seem so to be appropriate most of the time. Unless you choose the "media" as your source. Then you'll get opinion and drama masquerading as facts. Fact are always best. May I suggest various Justice sites, StatsCan, and Corrections Canada. All very helpful if you want facts and not noise.

They have crime increasing, Just because they arent reported n the paper. doesnt mean they happen.
True. Just because the papers haven't reported that the "Golden Boy" is actually made out of Cheese Whiz doesn't mean he isn't. But if say he is, I'd better have sufficient proof to support my claim. Did you check the facts regarding crime rates and youth? You really ought to.

You don't think for a second, Government controls statistics published in the paper, to fit their political agenda....?
Oh, the Big Government Conspiracy Theory defence? Cute. I haven't heard that one in a few years. Tell you what, you prove it exists and then you can try to prove it's why the facts are the opposite of your unsupported claim. Deal?

Crime in Canada is on the rise. Compared from couple years ago.
Riiiight. And your proof it is is.... where? Right next to the Golden Boy Cheese Whiz claim. Where it belongs.
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 372
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/17/2008 1:42:17 AM
Natural Free Rights probably means "we hold these things to be self-evident,that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights". It's the idea that rights are 'granted' (by a Court or government" but are ours by the simple act of being a humans.

Nobosy "gives" me my rights. They're mine. All government can do is protect and support them. They can't give them because they aren't theirs to give.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 373
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/17/2008 8:25:57 AM

Natural Free Rights probably means "we hold these things to be self-evident,that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights"


As I said in my post, these rights aren't "natural free rights", they are created by society. The quote you gave was used by the americans in the preamble ( to the Declaration of Independence or their constitution? I can't remember) and only applied to americans, not the human race... hell, it didn't even apply to all americans equally when it was adopted, hence the slavery & women not having the vote as examples.
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 374
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/17/2008 9:12:18 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree. It's a philosophical difference. And very much depends on a person's perspective and POV.

I (like many others) believe that "society", "government", and various legal systems don't give or grant humans "rights" because those "rights" already exist. Rather they act to recognize and protect them. When our government wrote the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms they didn't "give" or "grant" those Rights and Freedoms to us. They simply wrote down that they recognized them and formally stated that they would act to protect them. As for past errors by governments, they are past errors. They are not a deciding factor in the matter. After all, if those natural rights' already existed they simply failed to recognize and protect them for those humans you mentioned. Like I said, it's all depends on your perspective and POV.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 375
abuse of authority
Posted: 12/17/2008 9:29:12 AM
^^^ very true, but as I said earlier, we're just animals, the "rights" aren't an aspect of our existence until we started forming tribes, societies etc then had to develop codes of conduct for our interactions.

If we were living in a feral state, the only "natural rights" would be survival of the fittest & might makes right. ( I'm not advocating we live like this, just making a point).


I (like many others) believe that "society", "government", and various legal systems don't give or grant humans "rights" because those "rights" already exist


So gay couples have the natural right to marry, and the government of California has enacted laws to circumvent that right? ( and before anyone jumps up & says this isn't a legitimate example because being "gay" isn't natural, chimpanzees & penguins form gay partnerships too)
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