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 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 90
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?Page 6 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
perfectlyme,


A godless Liberal could in fact get along with a conservatice Christian if they recognized that the basis of their worldview was in a system of faith too.

Not necessarily. Yes, most people's worldviews have some level of faith imbedded in them, so just pointing that out doesn't cure anything - or make any worldview just as acceptable, reasonable, or sane as anyone elses'. Also, I should note some people's worldviews wouldn't be *properly* considered to be a "system of faith". That term implies that one's worldview is *held together* by faith, in the common terminology.

"Oh, hello there Mr. Osama Bin Laden! You know, we can get along, because within my worldview I have trust (faith) which helps shape it, most based on clear demonstratable evidence. You have faith, too. As long as we both understand this, we'll get along!"


...godless liberals flawed worldviews seems contigent on them understanding the arbitrary nature of Math and dependencies of natural sciences on Math.

Arbitrary nature of Math? You say this so assuredly, among other things with such conviction -- you're a hypocrite, as you are asking "godless liberals" to have an attitude that you do not have (noticing their own flawed worldview).


Which is confusing as then they are not religious or scientific but merely rejectionists.

To sound overly-harsh, I would describe you as a rejectionist who rejects any other viewpoint on the term science or religion, other than your own. You will only compare and contrast points and arguments within your bubble of how you see things, with your definitions and what you consider to be true. You can call other viewpoints flawed, yet at the same time, say everything is based on "faith" and hide into a relativistic mess.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 91
view profile
History
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/29/2006 7:56:10 PM
Chef Kona, I pity you. The WRATH of God? God is a Loving Being of Light.

The hate that I see in your sad post is very sad, and pitiful. It is sad that people are gullible enough to believe the kinds of things you have written.

May the Light shine on your soul and help you to realize that being gay is not disgusting, it's an inborn trait. These people cannot change who they are. Your soul is clearly empty of the Love that God calls us to have.

Jesus DID say, "Love thy neighbor." I do not see any love in your (I am repeating myself but must emphasize the tragedy of your posting) VERY SAD post.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 92
view profile
History
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/29/2006 8:48:32 PM
Frank,

Even though you are an atheist, you have a wonderfully Christian attitude. I've known many good atheists over the years. To me a good Christian is a person who treats others with kindness and respect. An atheist with your attitude is far more Christian to me than someone who calls himself a Christian like a couple of the posters here.

One friend of mine was a Muslim, and there's no doubt he made a beeline expressway to Heaven because he was a loving kind person and a lifesaving neurosurgeon. I don't believe that being a Christian is the only ticket to heaven. It is living a truly honorable life regardless of what your faith is. To me, an honorable, kind and loving atheist has a better chance of making a beeline for heaven in the next life than would a Christian who uses his faith to promote hate.

Frank, I wish you well with everything you do. You have a great attitude and I have much respect for you.

Cheers,



DW
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 93
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 5:31:10 AM
To the poster who posted the scriptural references, thanks for that. The ones in the Old Testament aren't applicable, we are not living under the law. As far as the New Testament, I think that's largely cultural as they dealt with women getting pregnant out of wedlock, etc. differently then we do now. I can't help but feel that there is a LARGE cultural element of context to scripture, just as there would be on ANY book or literature written during that time period. Culture IS a context, in my own mind. As another example, in that culture was it not considered a shame for women to teach men? I honestly don't feel that God thinks of women as second class citizens, even though there were lots of cultural taboos in that time period that are no longer applicable.
Now, onto the subject of homosexuality. If it IS a sin, I don't have a problem accepting that. As I am a sinner as well, I don't have any business pointint that out and can accept other people who have "sin". As I said, homosexuality is something I don't understand at all. I honestly don't think we do as a society or even scientifically either. Is it something that's inborn? Something chemically or otherwise that's just there at birth? I have no idea, I know that I've heard many say they didn't want to be homosexual but the tendency was there. Nature, nurture? Who knows? Again, doesn't matter at least to me. I think the MAIN emphasis in any "christian" I use that term only because it covers such a broad range of beliefs, their main goal in life should be to fulfill the scripture that I believe Jesus himself said, to summarize the gospel to one thing it would be this. To love your God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. There it is, sum up the scripture love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. That's a pretty lofty goal, I like myself pretty well!! I think that's a goal I won't ever reach, but I'll work towards it. And it's a great philosophy to live your life by. It works for me!
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 95
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 6:48:20 AM
Thanks for that, rev. Obviously we aren't bound by Old Testament law. Thank goodness!! Your point is well taken.
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 96
view profile
History
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 8:22:48 AM
Felinessa, thank you for the informative and interesting post.

Rev, well done!!

Bucsgirl, you went to the heart of the matter, to love thy neighbor.

DW
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 100
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 9:26:57 AM
To try to steer back to the OP, although I do appreciate all the intermittent discussion, the very words godless liberal and christian conservative are obviously the polar extremes and in themselves inflamatory. I still believe that people of different religious/political persuasions and beliefs CAN have a happy long term relationship. The partners in a relationship need not be mirror images of each other to be happy together. It's their tolerance of the other, the fact that they CAN have relationships with people who think differently without that affecting the quality of that relationship. Some can and some cannot. We can certainly find people that DO believe and think the way we do, and when we want to talk about a situation or issue, those are the people we should seek out. I think we're more rounded people when we have many people in our lives, and many different people. I think my life has been enriched in that my friends are all completely different. All ages, all backgrounds yet we all get along and have fascinating discussions about any number of topics. We don't HAVE to trudge through and hash out how we think differently, we can just enjoy talking about other things.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 101
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 10:05:20 AM
Let's just focus on this, it'll take you the rest of your life and ALL your energy to fulfill this.
"'love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 19:19). I can't think of a better or more fulfilling personal goal than that!! It really is one of the basic tenets of most religious beliefs and religions, is it not? It's easy enough to understand without being a student of Greek or theology, a child could understand, and it's something that is within ALL of our abilities. We can ALL understand this and do it.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 102
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 11:09:57 AM
felinessa Not MY neighbor, but I hear what you're saying. *sigh* It's easy to find fault and judgemental people but by the very act of calling someone judgemental aren't we also being judgemental by doing so? Not a trick question, either. Sure there are extreme groups of many faiths. I just like to find people that I can love and accept for who they are without them trying to argue with me or push their beliefs on me. I have no need to do that, I'd rather find something I can enjoy about another person than what I can pick apart or argue about. Plus, I know some great jokes!!!
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 105
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 11:35:29 AM
Jarbarian,

I think some people were pretty harsh with their words towards ya, but that's what happens when it comes to politics and religion -- and heaven forbid we throw questions about sex in there! Look out! :) To many people, it's just as offensive hearing rights and wrongs that seem horrible or deamining to them, as it is being lashed out at personally. That's how arguments can be intense rather quickly, unfortunatley.


I just don't know how anyone can say they are a Christian yet be almost completely opposed to the scripture in the Bible.

I agree with ya... however, even the more conservative literalist Christians are opposed to some parts of it as well. Just as you're taken aback by people lashing out at ya for believing that being sexually attracted to the same sex or having sexual relations with the same sex deserves a bloody death sentence, I think many conservative Christians would have a problem with extreme-fundamentalists who believe that any woman who claimed she was a virgin, got married, then it was found out that she wasn't, deserves the death sentence (another law in the OT).

There is room for 'picking and choosing' and applying common sense, such as Jesus stating that the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Many will take this common-sense approach on a variety of issues, following Jesus' lead, and feel they are truly Christ-like. If Jesus used common-sense, civil wisdom when interpreting the OT, why not follow in his footsteps? If stoning a woman who claimed to be a virgin when marrying but wasn't or dealing with a woman when she's on her period, was an old law not present anymore, why isn't homosexuality? Obviously laws have changed, unless you take it TOTALLY LITERALLY, and do exactly what the OT commands and what Jesus says on specific issues only.

I believe the homosexual issue is a current problem, as opposed to other ancient laws in there, because regardless of one's stance on the issue, it's "eewwwww" to many people, and seemingly inherintly wrong in some way. I don't think people are following "God's Word" and saying, "Hey, sorry, it sucks... but you are deserving of a death sentence. The Bible says so.... sigh." It's using the Bible as a tool to re-inforce thier traditional beliefs and their gut feeling that it's wrong.

Me, personally? I am not a religious person, and not out of apathy, either. The thought of two gay guys going at it turns me off, but at the same time, so does the thought of sex with a 400lb woman with facial hair and open sores. I think it's ridiculous to waste time telling gay people they are doing something "wrong". Not only is it completely ineffective, but there are actually other issues at hand that rely more on just "because its gross and the Bible says its wrong".

People can twist interpretations around all day, but the fact of the matter is, anyone here who is a staunchly conservative Christian or a liberal Christian, it doesn't matter -- nobody takes it literally from front to back. Liberal views of it is more open to interpretation and justifying the act of ignoring portions, while the conservative views limits interpretation and such within the guidelines of its tradtion (via pastors, parents, etc.).
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 106
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 11:37:26 AM
jarbarian Indeed!! I LOVE the Bucs! If you wanna talk football, write me anytime, I have no restrictions. I live in the greater Tampa Bay area, so that's my home team.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 108
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 11:43:26 AM
felinessa I think that basically that's what it boils down to. We have to go with what we really believe and what works for us. I'd rather honestly embrace something than just nod in agreement because it's a doctrine of my church. I don't think there's any church whose doctrines I could ever fully embrace or anyone else either. I just agree with what I do and keep silent about the rest of it.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 111
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 12:21:42 PM
I posted on the NFL threads on the sports forum during season. Not sure that the OS forum is?? Just write me I don't want to distract from this topic here. Thanks!
 paulie_walnuts
Joined: 3/29/2006
Msg: 114
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 1:57:19 PM

Fundamentalist Christians, Islamist, etc often distort religious teachings and doctrine to suit their own personal agendas.
jarbarian

Let me add to that Jar, you do show a fundamentalist trait, the only difference between you and the fanaticals is you show it with your words and your steadfast in your beliefs( nothing wrong with that) but a fanatical which often gets mistaken for a fundamentalist uses in most cases uses violence to illustrate their points example the KKK, Sunnite extremist such as Bin Laden and his followers.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 117
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 4:11:38 PM
Montreal Guy What you say is so true. We can talk about our spiritual beliefs and our faith til we're blue in the face. It's the true believers who live it and practice it and don't NEED to talk about it, they just quietly live it without making it a big to do. I understand this is a forum and a discussion, but the true proof is in how we live our lives day to day. That's what my dad used to call where the rubber meets the road.
 paulie_walnuts
Joined: 3/29/2006
Msg: 119
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 6:26:30 PM

Ah but I don't force my views on others.
I don't persecute others or say they're going to hell. That's left to God to decide, not me.
I do repeat what the Bible has to say in regards to sin.
I don't hate people or ridicule them for not sharing my beliefs. I will question openly but not judge.
-jarbarian

I never said the aforementioned Jar, I said you are steadfast in your beliefs and you have fundemental traits but you use words is what i said ,nothing more nothing less.
 Billbug
Joined: 1/2/2006
Msg: 121
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 6:34:10 PM
I have experienced this a couple times before. It won't work. Even if you are a Christian and true believer you will NEVER be No. 1 in her life. She will always have an excuse for everything, and that excuse is her religion. You will always be a competitor, no more. I also believe in Christianity, but I am not a fanatic. I don't think God wanted us to be unhappy....my advice?? Give her up....
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 124
view profile
History
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/30/2006 9:12:11 PM
Blackbird,

Thank you for writing your beautiful post. Your kind spirit shines right through. I am sorry that other "Christians" said that you will burn in Hell for your views. Your views of love for your fellow human being are plainly clear to me. Just because you are a Pagan does not give those kinds of "Christians" the right to talk to you like that. Unbelievable!!

I did some research into near death experiences some time ago. I learned that the majority of NDE's reveal a Being of Light who lovingly reviews your Life with you. You learn about what you did right and wrong in this life. Some people also got to see what the Other Side is like. None that I have read about have shown any evidence of a hellfire and brimstone type scenario. I have news for all of you--these experiences are across all different religions and cultures!! From what I've gathered from studying these experiences, is that living an honorable and good life is the ticket to Heaven. As for the existence of Hell it is doubtful based on what I've read on NDE's. Even attempted suicide experiences don't show a brimstone type experience. The Life Review could be longer, much longer for someone who has committed severe offences, but there doesn't seem to be evidence of God throwing His creation away like trash. The term Hell comes from the location of Gehenna which was the place where people burned their trash. Sorry to disappoint those who believe in demons and Hell, but odds aren't in your favor based on these studies.

Based on these experiences, it is most important to ACT on faith, more so than to talk about it. Doing things for other people is a good example of acting on faith.

I'd rather help people in need by supporting various charities in different ways than to sit and say a Rosary. But then again different people have various spiritual needs. Who is to say that the next person's Rosary does not help him? Same applies to different aspects of Christianity.

I have a good friend who is a Mormon. He should enjoy his faith and practice what makes him feel comfortable and closer to God. Being a Catholic/Episcopal/Orthodox hybrid seems to work best for me. Someone else would like the Assemblies of God, or the Baptist church. Just let go and let God.

The only issues I have are with "Christians" doing things like saying to a non Christian that he or she will burn in Hell for that or using God's Name to promote hatred toward other human beings.

Blessings to ALL, whether Christian or not.

DW

 sayonara7
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 126
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/31/2006 7:19:34 AM
Hey...take my advice and stay away from her and forget her.The only thing that can come from this relationship is heated arguments. Believing in God is one thing, but being extremely religious is downright scarey, and as far as my experience goes extremely religious is the other name for fundamentalism. They never see your way of looking at things, they only do what "God would think is right and what the holy book whatever that is says".I am not saying all people are like that, but most of them are definatelylike that. Nothing extreme coming from either partner is too good for a relationship, be it a person who is a devout atheist or a devout follower of a religion, in the end they are going to force their beliefs upon you and where does that leave you huh?So, like most of the people in this forum have said, this relationship doesn't have a future, well casual relationship maybe, but would a conservative christian woman really want to do anything that is casual when it comes to sex and relationship unless it's marriage?Answer that question for your self and you'll know what to do.
 Billbug
Joined: 1/2/2006
Msg: 127
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/31/2006 9:39:22 AM
Designingwoman...
I fully agree with all you have said. I, too have done some research on NDE's and found much the same as you have. Being a Catholic (non-practicing) I was also brought up in a very strict religious environment, both at home and at a Catholic school, where we were pretty well brainwashed. I now realise that not all we were taught may be necessarily so. Having said that, I still believe in God and my faith, but with the reservation to live and let live. We all have a different perception of God. As long as we believe and do right by our fellow man I think we are on the right track to each our own perception of Heaven. God bless...
 paulie_walnuts
Joined: 3/29/2006
Msg: 129
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/31/2006 1:01:46 PM
^^^^^^^^amen to that brother^^^^^^^^
 jxmac
Joined: 2/28/2006
Msg: 130
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 3/31/2006 1:19:26 PM
Don't make it into a huge deal. Sure you'll see things differently. But that makes things more interesting. If you get into an argument over religious beliefs, well, to me it's better than arguing over who didn't call who. If your personalities don't clash then I think that as long as both of you are accepting it shouldn't be an issue. And if it is, well then at least you tried, eh?

I am the godless liberal and have been in your situation quite a few times. I got over it AND had a good time with them, I don't force anyone to believe what I do, but I expect the same from others if they want to get along with me. It's definitely made me think, and been the topic of a lot of really interested discussions/debate. But, then again I love to argue. Haha. :D
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 135
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 4/7/2006 9:33:09 AM
BRIAN(iac),


I would argue that David Koresh and Jim Jones weren't fundamentalists. They were con artists disguising themselves as fundamentalists.

I would argue that they were both. And more than just a "con", though -- if you make that the core part of your life, if it started out as a "con", it becomes true to you as you live it out. It's arguable to what degree, and we can't read their minds. However, many less-cultish or non-cultish preachers/leaders could be considered "con-artists", in the sense that they lie to themselves to interpret the Bible in such a way to gain inspiration from followers and to market themselves as the greatest preacher with the greatest messages -- when they are all reading from the same book. And with that in consideration, it shold be noted that a lot of people lie to themselves or "con" themselves to mold their view to their liking, wether it be religious, political, crime-oriented, etc. I think those guys were just taking it to the extreme -- which didn't mean they didn't end up believing it, nor does it mean that they weren't fundamentalists (to their own view they ended up adopting for thier own good).

I would say fundamentalists are those who are literalists to their tradition based on their Bible, not the actual literature in the Bible, but having the belief and personal effort to interpret the literature in a literalist way (conforming to their tradition).


But the point is to make a wholehearted attempt to figure out exactly how it should be interpreted. We are all fallible and will make mistakes.

Yeah, I agree with you -- however, I don't think that what you says paints the whole picture. We are more fallible if what we are reading off of has intersecting or conflicting messages written by different inspired authors in different periods of time, and the text itself is fallible, in terms of conveying a direct message. I am not making a generalization about "all Christians" or "all Muslims" or "all Jews" where the faiths within vary considerably -- but many, many people -- notably fundamentalists (and many non-fundamentalists) don't make an honest attempt to figure out exactly how it should be interpreted -- whether from their tradition or personal opinion, they already feel know how it should for the most part.

My point is, we are fallible, but that doesn't excuse some folks from purposely being biased to their emotions, tradition when interpreting anything (religious or not). And when it does come to religious text, for many, it's difficult. If one is going to honestly interpret the Bible, here's two general, different ways:
1. Starting off looking at the text as mere ancient, religious text that some follow, and many don't
2. It's the word of God that is true in the first place, and we must interpret the passages to have it make sense to us

The problem is, many pick #2. Assume that there is a massively high probability (at least) that it's religiously true, THEN interpret. I have a problem with that, if you not only wish to validate or invalidate it being error-free, but even to just interpret it alone!

Making it relevant to the topic -- I think a "fundamentalist" is at heart, different than a non-religious person who thinks openly (liberally) about such topics. They wouldn't get along, because the mere concept of interpreting it or reading into it is vastly different.
 sayonara7
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 136
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 4/8/2006 2:33:11 PM
"She is completely different because she is married to the Son of God(Jesus Christ)".



It seems like you are a maniac though.lol
 designingwoman
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 141
view profile
History
Godless Liberal + Christian Conservative = ?
Posted: 5/27/2006 8:56:28 PM
Soulmate,

The propensity of right wing conservatives to be "Christian" is because they are ABUSING Christianity rather than truly following Christ's teachings. They are abusing religion to promote hatred and for disgusting political gains rather than using religion to be a better person.
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