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 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 10
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?Page 2 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
So because this woman is a stripper that means she is a hooker with a pimp? Wow didnt know that.

No one seems to have mentioned that one of the accused is eaither awaiting trial for an assault committed in november or made a plea with no jail time.

God forbid the white boys should have a bad history. We sure as hell get to hear all about how skanky the stripper is. Guess if they do show evidence she was raped they will get off on the grounds that she was naked and asking for it.

They didnt find dna but the examination did show that she had been brutally sodomized.

Since everyone seems to think she is a skank crying rape can someone please tell me the motive for this? Money? fame?

Only 42% of rapes are reported in the USA(RAINN). Maybe if the victem wasnt considered the criminal that rate would climb.


Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.

One in six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape, and 10% of sexual assault victims are men.

In 2003-2004, there were an average annual 204,370 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.

About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
(RAINN.or)

You might want to dwell on the fact that as you read this post a rape is occurring somewhere in the USA.

I tried to find stats for those that occur on campuses but I wasnt able to find them before posting. But its higher than the average. Just because they are clean cut young men doenst mean they are not capable of doing this. Whats more from the frat boy mentality they probably figured it was all just fun and games.

People may convict the victim but i am more willing to believe her and let the courts decide about the boys.

Just wondering how people would feel if this was a white stripper and some black athletes that were accused of raping and sodomizing her?
 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 11
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/20/2006 12:40:42 AM
BTW if she had a pimp i think that would have been mentioned by now as the defence has already be slurring her. So while a stripper isnt a nun and yes some might even go so far as to have sex for money when they do these parties that doesnt mean that she wasnt raped.

I dont care if its the skankiest hooker in the worst part of town. Just because thats how she earns a living doesnt mean that its "ok" to rape her.

I was just reminded of what happened to a friend of mine a number of years ago.
She was dating a guy in a frat. After a party she had crashed on one of the couches only to wake up with a guy on top of her. Now she had been pretty pissed and the guy had lifted up her skirt and puilled off her underwear before she woke up. Now she was 5'2 and the guy was about twice her weight. He pinned her down and she managed to yell out. 2 frat brothers came into the room and instead of stopping him they cheered him on. Finally her bf came in and pulled the guy off. but when he went to beat him to a pulp the guy told him that frat brothers share everything and the other fratboys wouldnt let him do anything.
She didnt call the police because she didnt want anyone to know what had happened to her and her bf was threatened with being kicked out of the frat if he said anything. All these guys were athletes too.
People might think the clean cut university boys would never do anything bad and yet who commits all the date rapes on campus? Who drugs a womans drink at a kegger or the university pub? These things happen all the time by fresh faced boys that look like they wouldnt harm a fly.

People have assumed that because she will strip she will have sex with them so if you agree they invited her over with the intention of getting laid then why is it so hard to beieve that when she said it wasnt included they didnt just say"sure it is" thinking she wont mind, after all she is a stripper. Much like others assume.
 bob0colo
Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 23
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/20/2006 12:23:37 PM
Hostile take over, too much leverage. Its a new Lemooo.. cheap with current gas prices.

Not a chance this is going anywhere Black girl, stripper, nice connotation. Why don't we just call her slut. Or have we already. Any chance we would blame a victim.

Who has the most powerful (Liar) lawyer. Spin.
We already know what's happened. these poor little rich boys, so what if there's some date rape drug involved, any blood test done?

None of these kids were there. Sounds like to me something happened. Should we have a trial?
 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 25
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/20/2006 2:28:46 PM
>Incalover, The reason I mentioned the "what if they were black and seh were white" was because they were yelling racist slurs at her. So racism comes into it because these guys are racists.

No DNA, ah...condoms?

Really looking forward to the explanation as to why these guys cleaned the house and left after the stripper came to party. I have never in my life and certainly not when i was at university did i go to a party that had a clean up at the end of the night.
Maybe they needed to clean before their mother came home? Or maybe they cleaned up before the cops came over? no. no, they cleaned up because they are good responsible boys that clean their rooms before bed.

As for her being drunk there hasnt been anything to say she was drunk when she arrived just that she was drinking with them. So either they got her drunk and raped her or she purposely got drunk and she asked them to line up and sodomize her.

So let me get this straight, everyone seems to be saying that she got drunk, got raped and then showed up to strip for these guys. They had a great time watching her but didnt touch her. She then cried rape because she was? oh yes because she wanted to set them up for a civil suit. The boys then cleaned up the house. I bet they didnt even have booze at the party. It must have been apple juice.

No one seems to think the guy that has a history of assaults could rape a woman but a stripper is certain to be a hooker trying to make some big bucks by suing these players.

People have already said the DA will lose his job if this falls thru so why is he risking his job? Or are we now going to hear claims she has been giving him freebies to get his support?

If these guys are guilty I hope they enjoy being treated in prison as they treated her. After all they seem to be interested in sodomy.
 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 27
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/22/2006 2:41:38 AM
>gotapulse, I am not saying she IS a victim and they ARE guilty. And if this was a white stripper and a white team I would still tend to believe the woman. Yes, a woman can make a false accusation. But dont you think that she would be aware of the attention this would get? If it was fake then she would be risking her future.
Now for example if you claimed that you were at a party like this and you showed up at the police station saying you had been raped and the exam showed that indeed you had been sodomized like this woman i would take your word for it. I wouldnt think you were doing it to get money. I would give you the benefit of the doubt because what would you gain by claiming this happened but it hadnt? If it was proved you had lied peopel would then be asking what you had put up your butt. You would probably be the butt of a lot of jokes and not to mention being sued by the team. I just dont see the advantage of crying rape if it isnt true. So I tend to believe the victim. As for the race issue, that was only because it was reported they used racial slurs. I am not saying she is a saint. But you dont have to be. It could be a crack whore thats rolls drunks and gets raped. she is still a victim. It doesnt matter who the victim is. it is a crime to rape/rob/murder etc anyone.

I just dont like to see someone that has come forward and reported something like this get attacked because of what she does. university is criminally expensive in the USA so people have to do things they might not normally want to do to make a living and pay tuition. just because she is a stripper doesnt mean she is a hooker. It isnt that she is poor and black and they are rich and white. But i do know that racism is big in parts of the USA so I can see people blame her because she is black and they are rich and white. I dont think they are guilty because of her colour or because she is poor. More based on the types of athletes and the crap they would pull when I was at university. We will see what happens. I just saw on CNN that there was another girl at that party that says she saw everything except the rape. but she admits she wasnt in the room when the rape was meant to have happened.
 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 30
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/23/2006 3:35:21 PM
>anticon, Good point, they should have kept the camera going instead of not taking ANY photos during the time period when the rape is meant to occur. As for no DNA-Condoms. Remember the medical exam shows she was repeatedly sodomized. Why would anyone clean up after a party unless they wanted to hide the fact that a party happened or to hopefully hide evidence. I am not saying they can clean it perfectly and maybe they should watch court tv to gain the knowlegge to hide or clean up a crime scene. I am NOT saying they are guilty. the courts will decide it. I am saying it is extremely suspicious that they would clean up in the middle of the night and not wait until morning. I am sure that there are cases where people try to sue to get money. But these are university students that she didnt know. How would she know they had money? I know when I was at university I was just getting by. So I dont know how she would know these guys were rich if they even are.

I am sure that there are cases where people go after money but i will still believe the "victim" until the courts decide. I see all the ads on tv from lawyers asking people to sue if they have any complaint like their coffee was too hot.

We havent heard from the black player as we havent heard from any of them. The other woman at the party is black and she did say she was there but not in the room when the rape is meant to have occured. So it isnt like she is supporting the womans stroy just because they are both black. if that were the case she would have skewed her story to implicate the team. Her story was that she was at the party but wasnt aware something like that was happening and was surprised by it. Her story tends to be supporting the guys.

Guess we will just have to see what info gets released next.
 mike2040
Joined: 5/15/2005
Msg: 32
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/23/2006 8:46:32 PM
Its kinda interesting. I ve noticed that shes gone from stripper, to hooker, to prostitute . but her "pimp"did this? are you serious?

I just think its rather disturbing that a woman is allegedly reporting being sexually assaulted at a college, and people question her? as if she brought this on herself. The worst thing that i have seen is that people say that she wants money for this, let alone she was a fellow student at a neighboring campus. amazing the student factor gets buried at the bottom of the story and the only thing people can remmeber is that shes a stripper. The woman doesnt want to be identified and is being slammed . its ok to back the players, im just saying. wait and see what happends and to not condemn anybody before all is said and done. for all we know , someone else was at the party that wasnt even a lacrosse player.

the Team

amazing, at one of the largest NCAA sponsor schools, nobody knowns anything. They lawyered up almost instantaneously, and refused to co-operate with police. That doesnt exactly ring of "innocence" if some of you havent caught that fact yet.( innocent people dont have problems talking police., you look really suspicious if the first words are , "i want a lawyer".) The sole fact that the police had to get court orderd search warrants and DNA test doesnt help their innocent factor at all.


last but not least, the biggest two issues of all :

RACE & CLASS.

Yes, these 2 are the biggest issues on the block. why? Because,the country is still racially divided. IF you say no, look at the last few cases. the Kobe bryant case, the Susan Smith trial , and the most famous of all, THE OJ Simpson murder trials. In kobes trial, the accuser alleged that kobe invited her up to her room and raped her. For those of you that dont follow cases, or sports, kobe is black and the girl was white. Kobe bryant came under intesne scrutiny for this trial. He lost endorsement deals an contracts while enduring this. The sad part was that the accusser admited she had consentual sex , and then dropped the charges.The damage was already done, he is still remember as the guy invovled in a rape case.

As for susan smith.

Susan smith was a white female in her thirties that lived in South Carolina.( I remeber this case especially well because i was in the state during the time this was occuring) She had 2 children. Mrs. Smith claimed that a black man allegedly carjacked her car and took her 2 children. the description she gave to the police was : a black man between 18-30 , between 5'4 and 6'1. Amazingly, people actually bought this story and stopped every black male they saw.Not only were they stopped, but they had to submit to a photo being taken and a aliby statement. ( i saw the lines of people standing on lines during the news report.) Sadly, she eventually confessed to pushing the vehicle into a lake with her kids still inside and that she was not carjacked. She killed her kids because she was dating some guy that didnt want to be involved with kids.

The Oj Simpson case signified and touched racial lines once again. OJ Simpson Was found not guilty on charges of killing his ex-wife nicole brown and her boyfriend , ron goldman. The bizzarre part was that people acted as if he should be ostricized from society because he was found innocent by a group of his peers in a court of law. People refuse to work with him, or associate with him. Which i think is bizarre. but it mostly falls along racial lines. If you feel im wrong about that, check out some of the polls on some of the big news polls they have on him in their archives.

now back to the duke case.
you have people coming from well -to - do family. your proably saying. "What does this have to do with the case? EVERYTHING They take one look at the people accussed and say " oh, she must be lying, because they are good kids ( so were the kids at columbine . Socialpaths are known to be especially charming). I was just disturbed because they were only seeing a person whos accusing people of rape only to get money out of them. When serious charges are brought, and all you can say is they want money from you, there is something seriously wrong here. im not saying it doesnt happend, but there is definetly something wrong there.

as for race. The fact that a black woman was allegedly raped by three white males is disturbing, let alone they let themselves turn themselvesin and werent put in jumpsuits. whats more disturbing is an unwillingness to cooperate. If the shoe was on the other foot, the accuser was a white woman, accusing 3 black males, every black male within 500 miles would proably be stopped,screened and questioned.( hey, if they did that susan smith nosense 10 years ago, and your only 100 miles away, what do you think theyre going to do to you?) . some of them wouldve been held in prison for way more than just 2 hours. Try "a few days until they can process information."

This may sound harsh, but its the reality of things in the country. In the words of KANYE WEST: racism still alive, its just concealed.
 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 41
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/26/2006 4:36:25 PM
According to the news on CNN last night the "alleged victim" was sober when she arrived at the party. Appearantly there are indepentant witnesses that the police have found to prove this fact. So i guess those claiming these guys are innocent will be claiming she got plastered the minute she walk away from the party?

This woman cant be responsible for the police photo line up and she shouldnt have to pay for their mistake. She was shown a stack of photos and asked to pic out the rapists. The stack only had photos of the team and shoould have had other photos tossed in to make it fair towards the accused. The defence now wants the photo ID to be tossed out.

Interesting points...The cab driver being used as a defence witness has also become a prosecution witness. He saw the woman leave the party and was picked up by a woman in a white car. The photos the men have shows her with a black car. The photo they claim is her LEAVING the party yet it is her arriving. As the photo shows the black car she was dropped off by. Looks like the time on the photos wasnt set correctly.


Prints taken from digital cell phone cameras have time stamps, but can be altered, according to digital photography experts. Only the cameras themselves have true embedded time data to correspond with photos taken. "If the prosecutor can discredit that photo, or one photo, their meaning are all suspect," another lawyer in Durham says
(Time.com)

Defense lawyers now admit that it was a mistake for them to leak the photos and say the lawyers that leaked the pics had not consulted the leading lawyers for the boys. They would never have released them had they been consulted. why? because they no longer have time to make up different stories.

Also interesting that 16 of the teams players have had charges deferred in the last 3 years. Those charges have now all been reinstated. Guess its true that university athletes grow up getting away with "pranks".

The team captain that hired the strippers used a fake name.


According to a court paper based on what the accuser told police, what happened next is this: The two women arrived "around 11:30 p.m." and began their show shortly thereafter. Within 10 minutes, the women halted their act after the men "began to get excited and aggressive." One player held up a broomstick and said, "I'm gonna shove this up you." The two women exited the house and got into a car. One of the suspects approached the car and coaxed the two dancers back inside. Once there, the women were separated. Two men pulled the younger dancer, 27 and a mother of two, into a bathroom. A third man joined them. For the next 30 minutes, the victim told police, she was raped, sexually assaulted and sodomized. She claims she was also "hit, kicked and strangled."

The two women left the party at a time and in a condition that are not yet clear. They drove to a nearby grocery store, where the woman who was not attacked, Kim Roberts, asked for help. A security guard called the police. Around 2:30 a.m., the victim reported to the Duke University Medical Center emergency room. An examination found injuries "consistent with" anal and vaginal sexual assault.
(time.com)



The players' lawyers--there may be as many as 50 or more working directly or indirectly on the team's behalf.
(time.com)
Seems a little odd that you would need that big an army to prove you are innocent.


There is evidence that some players conspired to hide their identities that night. Court papers state that the alleged rapists used false names--"Adam," "Bret" and "Matt"--to refer to one another in the bathroom. And the victim told police she was told the bash was a gathering of Duke track and baseball players. If the team members are obeying a code of silence to protect a friend, even defense lawyers acknowledge it is unlikely to last.
(time.com)

So we have fake names used when hiring the dancers, emails announcing the party where they say they will harm the women, fake names used at the party and they lied about the team they were on. We have one of them going to trial for assault in WashDC. They just keep getting cleaner and cleaner. Poor boys!


Nifong has a reputation for fair play... and even lawyers who may face him in this case say he is competitive but uncommonly decent in court.
(time.com)
so we have heard why this woman would lie but why would a respected prosecutor go after such obviously "innocent" boys? Even his opponents say he is honest and fair!


The family has received death threats. They say that she has received death threats, anonymous phone calls. There were even some flyers, they say, that were strewn across the front yard of the family home a couple of weeks ago that had death threats on them.
(cnn.com)
The woman has to move around from different safe houses for fear of being attacked!
Its fine that people dont believe her story but going to the lenghts of using intimidation to get her to drop the charges or refuse to be a witness for the prosecution? And people wonder about these innocent boys having money.

Sadly I doubt they will get a conviction even if they are guilty because what prosecutor can build a case when he faces an army of lawyers who will do everything to find the slightest doubt. Because all they need is reasonable doubt they will swamp the prosecutor with meaningless paperwork inorder to make it extremely difficult to concentrate on the facts. It will not be a fair trial. It will be the typical trial where money means you are innocent.
 wiserd
Joined: 5/11/2004
Msg: 42
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/27/2006 12:06:07 AM
Thanks for the great posts kitsguy4u.


bike_man: but i read somewhere that the vast majority of REPORTED rape cases turn out to be hoaxes.


Color me skeptical. It would be interesting to see where you got that from, and the agenda of the person saying it. Rape is pretty reasonably described as a very underreported crime. I've had a number of friends who were raped and haven't reported it, since the cases involved family members or boyfriends of family members. (one blood relative, two boyfriends of female relatives, and one more friend who seems to have been the vicitm of date rape.)
 bob0colo
Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 43
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/27/2006 8:43:43 AM
-----------------
bike_man: but i read somewhere that the vast majority of REPORTED rape cases turn out to be hoaxes
-----------------

Most rapes are not reported..I wonder why?


Radio’s Savage “ drunken slut stripper”.... “dirty Verminous black stripper”

Limbaugh “ho”


Carson on MSNBC “crypto-hooker “......“who hires herself out to dance naked in front of and...sometimes sleep with ..stangers”



Bill O'Reilly stated that the woman ... "put herself in jeopardy." ... "She has two young kids to support and no fathers in sight. So, in order to earn money, she chooses to go to strange places and disrobe in front of strange men. Do the math."



Scarborough Country guest host Michael Smerconish characterized as "goofy" an e-mail sent by team member Ryan McFadyen


-----------------

This lady made a mistake, she should have been escorted. This is a taste of what anyone leveling a rape charge has to face. Would you care to talk in detail about you sexual history under oath?


It is sad that so many powerful people would behave in this fashion and talk like this...

Death treats....wonder why.
 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 45
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/27/2006 7:25:05 PM
To me that email spells this out as premeditated. They planned to hurt the women. Those women should have left the first time the guys threatened them with the broom handle. Pity they let the guys talk them back into coming back to the party. Should be a good warning for other women. If a guy gets weird and "jokingly" threatens you then get out FAST!

The more I hear about this case the more I think they are guilty.

Latest develpement is the defense says the woman had been raped at 14 and had dropped the charges so therefore it must have been a lie and she is lying now! Yeah, like intimidation didnt play into it then. Because you can see whats happening to her now. Now she is sticking to it because she is older and stronger and doesnt want to be victimized yet again.


If these guys are guilty I hope they get passed around the cell block so they can get what they gave.
 kitsguy4u
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 47
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/28/2006 2:53:46 PM
>bikeman, yes the number of rapes reported is very low. Why? because women are treated like crap and are often tried instead of the suspect just like in this case. Also if it goes to trial they have to relive the attack. Not only that but everyone they know will find out about it and there is often a "shame" associated with it. like somehow they are to blame.

Imagine this happened to you? would you want all the guys at work to know about it? would you feel like you were less of a man? this takes a lot out of a person and messes with a persons self esteme. rape is also often hard to prove and as we see if you have an army of defense lawyers it will be harder. Often victims will not report it and just do their best to pretend it didnt happen.

Just now on cnn a guy in the US navy who played QB for their football team has just been charged with raping a female in the navy. That victim must have known her reporting it was going to be a mark on her record. We already know from the US air force that rapes are blamed on the victim. The air force investigates them themselves. out of over 100 reports 2 brought charges against the rapists. many of the victims were disciplined for having sex in the barracks. I understand that they have recently had to revamp the way they follow up on the reports as it was obvious to independant investigators that there was a lot of cover up in the boys club.

It is sad that these women must do this type of work but it isnt uncommon for women to have to make that choice because they must get money for school and support their children. I am sure they would be happy to do something else if they were paid good money. I am certain that once they finish university they will get work that uses their brain and not their body. This isnt their carreer, this is what they have to do to pay tuition.
 wiserd
Joined: 5/11/2004
Msg: 48
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Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 4/29/2006 1:18:30 AM

I ought to go to Google and research the topic of the low percentage of REPORTED AND TRIED rapes which go to conviction and/or are indeed cases of rape. I read somewhere that it's low.



Conviction rates for those cases known to involve athletes accused of rape hover around 30 percent, far less than those in normal rape cases, which is over 80 percent.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2223/context/archive


And the 80 percent rate is despite the fact that the burden of proof is on the accuser, and the court is supposed to let guilty people go free rather than put innocent people in jail.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 56
Do I even want to bring up the Duke controversy?
Posted: 6/21/2006 6:45:11 AM

I would just like to take a second and point out that only 1% of rape cases are prooven to be false accusations (from my sociology textbook).


Without getting into the whole Duke thing - I'm amazed people can be so worked up, and so convinced without having been there - I have to comment on this. How would you prove that an accusation is false? Clearly there isn't a 99% conviction rate based on accusations. The only way an accusation then would be proven false is if the accuser recanted, and was willing to face legal consequences of filing a false police report. Even if the accused never goes to court because the accusation is clearly wrong, that wouldn't enter these stats. Another case of lying with statistics.
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