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 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 1618
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Why men wont date independant womenPage 73 of 77    (37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77)
OK, I'll bite...


taterrific1 - I may have missed it - but I believe no woman on this thread has commented directly on your statement above. Seems the Independent gals don't mind this type of double standard.

JoeBob - So here is the real Independent woman's standard " I don't have to have as much as the guy does - but a guy has to have as much as I do"

And - Yes, I am repeating (in a fashion) the crux of the point - just to poke it in the eye of some so called 'independent women' - those with double standards about finances, assets and related things.

Of course having this attitude would make a woman not so independent wouldn't it?

That IS a double standard. I imagine a number of women hold this view and I suspect they don't even question or consider that it is a double standard... "It just is the way life works". You might be surprised JoeBob and taterrific1 how many men also subscribe to this point-of-view. Kind of good for all of us to be confronted by it and think about it with "fresh eyes".

The attitude, I believe, extends from the days when the man was the breadwinner and the woman the homemaker. Thus fewer men have a problem with women earning less than they do. In 2007 she has gone to work but the "breadwinner " attitude has been extended into an expectation that he should earn/have at least as much as she does.

It might be worth pointing out that, although I think it is slowly evolving, society also tends to have this double standard. I've been in several "unequal" relationships where I had greater assets/income than he did - and the men faced some societal pressure from it. Stay-at-home dads would likely be familiar with it. It's an extra wrinkle to sort out in relationships.
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 1619
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 3:49:12 PM

Question: Do you (the independent womon) believe it is defensible to hold a position that a man must have the same as I (equivalent) in finances and assets before I would enter into a relationship with him or even date him -- BUT it is OK if a guy I am interested in having a relationship with has more than me in the way of financial assets?


Yes, this is a double standard that I believe exists with most women, even though they may not admit it ... or, as Margo points out, they may not realize this.

I have been fortunate enough to have a career where my salary equalled my male colleagues, and my x was in the same field .... so, this was not an issue.
However, I have realized this double standards all my working life!
Which is why I stay away from these discussions as a general rule ..... I don't want to be labeled a women-hater!

I sincerely will say this. I do not look at what salary/income and assets my potential partner makes/has. I look at their values, work ethics, and history. Each person has their individual story, as I have mine. Circumstances do change. You cannot generalize. I have seen too many GREEDY people with money, who lack ethics! I have addressed this already in previous posts.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 1621
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 5:17:57 PM

BUT it is OK if a guy I am interested in having a relationship with has more than me in the way of financial assets?
I just want to say that I do not "target" men who are better off than I am. Of course, that wouldn't be very hard to do because I basically started with nothing at the time of my divorce and had no skills that would earn me anything more than minimum wage.

During my marriage, I had no career that I was climbing the corporate ladder in. Before my marriage, I had only one year of college before I had to go to work to support myself. Key punch operators only got about $350. / month back then ... so what I earned I also spent. Sometimes I really just lived on crackers and peanut butter, but I was self-supporting and in good health.

After I married, it seemed like a good idea for me to stay home with our children because he was earning pretty good money. Even if I would have wanted a career, it would not have been easy as 10 of the 22 years of marriage we lived in Germany and the German government does not grant work visas to unskilled foreigners ... at least back then they didn't.

When I got the divorce, my three siblings just sort of appointed me the caregiver for my elderly parents who were both in their final years of terminal diseases, and while they covered my expenses for 3 1/2 years ... believe me there was no "profit" being made and certainly no money going into retirement (which did not exist anyways because remember ... for almost 22 years I was a stay at home mom).

After my parents died, I took what little inheritance I got and "indulged" myself ... I financed my way through nursing school. So in 1998 I finally had a"skill" that would support me and allow me the luxury of buying myself a home ... all I could afford was a double-wide mobile home, but it was gonna be all mine within 10 years and that sounded plausible considering I was already 49 years old.

As I stated in previous posts ... I come from a humble background and I live humbly. I don't have much, but what I do have does not have a "bank" as co-owner" listed on it. (Well okay, the house does, but that's it.)

Statement ... I am an independent woman in that I can take care of myself and still handle my affairs appropriately. Financially I can support myself ... perhaps not in the lap of luxury ... but I keep a roof over my head, gas in my car, and food on the table. Also, I am in relatively good health for a 58 year-old woman.

I have men contacting me for dates and meetings who have been working their entire lives, have been successfully climbing their "corporate ladders", stashing away their money in various different forms of investment.

I do not "target them, have not really even been in the mood to date since shortly after I joined POF. (My son, the baby of my four children and my only son, died suddenly in October 2005. I dropped off the site, but the friends I had made in the 6 months prior to that called me relentlessly and begged me to put my profile back up. I caved and so while I have actually been here about 2 1/2 years, my profile only shows since October 2005.)

Question ... If these men show interest in me and I return the interest, does that make me some kind of "gold digger"? Am I displaying some sort of "double standard" because I return interest in them even though I do not have close to the "financial assets" they have?

I made a previous statement in this thread about my expectations of a man, did not "dance around" about it ... it was clear and precise.
Some of us really do not have a "price" on our head (love). And as I stated in message 1793 ...

I will admit to saying that I expect a man to be able to bring the same to the table as I do, but I have always just meant that with regards to "good health, and that he be self-supporting" (by that I mean he can pay his bills, feed himself, put a roof over his head).

I honestly don't think that's asking too much and there is no "at least" inferred in that statement.

If "normal" for him is an efficiency apartment with a sleeper sofa and he is in good health ... than he qualifies in my book. He's taking care of himself (not mooching off of others) and he's in good health.


Per JoeBob ...
So here is the real Independent woman's standard " I don't have to have as much as the guy does - but a guy has to have as much as I do"
That is your personal interpretation of the statement that was made in this thread. It does not ...in any way, shape, or form ... encompass EVERY woman who has posted in this thread. In fact, if anything, it only really involves a select few. I can honestly say that is not the way I feel and have stated that as clearly as I know how.

I know from previous threads and encounters with you that you are very argumentative and do always think you are right ... so I do not expect you to believe any of us who do not fit your little scenario. Quite frankly, none of us really care if you believe us or not. We know who we are and what we have to offer to a relationship ...

AND

... none of us need the approval of the likes of you.
 joebobbriggs
Joined: 7/31/2007
Msg: 1622
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 5:45:47 PM
I just asked a question and I am still waiting for the answer. Y/N

JoeBob
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 1624
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 6:00:24 PM

Question: Do you (the independent womon) believe it is defensible to hold a position that a man must have the same as I (equivalent) in finances and assets before I would enter into a relationship with him or even date him -- BUT it is OK if a guy I am interested in having a relationship with has more than me in the way of financial assets?

YES or NO.


The answer: it's none of your business unless you are the potential man I might wish to forge a relationship with.

Now if you are asking if financial means/assets need to equal for me to enter into a relationship with someone ~ my answer is clearly: NO.

I've yet to have a long-term relationship with a man who made more money than I did/do/have/will. Today ~ I could care less how much money he makes as long as he's happy with his life, knows that being a momma's boy is not appropriate at age 40, his child support is not in arrearages and there isn't a hatred of his ex ~ I'd be happy to pay the bills. But he does have to rub my feet at the end of the day.

It's pretty simple ~ independence (for some of us) has nothing to do with money. If he's a whiny azz who is overly emeshed with his siblings, friends, parents, co-workers, etc. I deem that "dependent" and it's a short walk out the door to the car. Pretty simple. I have family/friends/etc., but they don't exist in my personal life unless it's necessary (weddings, funerals, birthdays, etc.) More contact than that ~ sorry ~ gotta go. Oh, and I would never even consider a relationship with a last word freak, argue-monger, bigot or other unsavory traits that seem so prevelent at times ~ that goes for any man, rich or poor or in the middle. But that's just me.
 joebobbriggs
Joined: 7/31/2007
Msg: 1626
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 6:55:51 PM
Isn't it strange - I've seen people post messages on this forum that in essence stated that anyone who pays cash and has no debt has a bad credit record and cannot finance anything.

So - how is one to know Shemail?

JoeBob
 dave1234
Joined: 11/7/2004
Msg: 1627
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 7:05:08 PM

(Msg 1796) Do I want a man, absolutely ! I think that we all say that we dont need a man, but it's paradoxical, when I am in love, as much as I dont want it to happen, I tend to find myself needing. I have spent all my life saying that I dont need a man, and yet when I have loved, the "need" becomes paramount.

Having said that, it's almost like a fix, needing him is like not needing him to survive life, but needing him as his soul and energy gives a sense of completeness and wholeness. As I said, its paradoxical and nonsensical, I know, I dont need him as I am independent and yet I do need him as the experience of loving him gives an experience of completeness and wholeness. The soulmate thing !!

Hope I am making sense..


You're making perfect sense. That's exactly what it's all about.

When people talk about freedom and the need to be free do we really need it? One could argue slavery is fine if one is properly fed, clothed and treated OK. How does one explain to a person who has never been free what freedom is like?

We can look at Iraq and see that there are people who prefer their confining customs and religious rituals. Even when offered freedom they don't want it. They want to live as they are.

I believe that's similar to how some folks view relationships. Some have never experienced the "completeness and wholeness" or have and don't really care. Just as some people do not have the need for freedom others do not have the need for a relationship.

Just as there are people who don’t require a relationship there are those who insist on trying to convince them otherwise. It’s referred to as “the chase”. They either try in vain or after expending an extraordinary amount of energy they succeed in convincing the person. After a while the relationship collapses and the person who did the chasing becomes disillusioned.

How can the other person just end the relationship? How can they just walk away? Some people even have such little feeling or concern or hurt that they can can turn around and say, “Oh well. Let’s stay friends”, as if the relationship was nothing more than a casual friendship.

The difference between needing and wanting? When we obtain something we “need” we tend to put more effort into retaining it than if it’s something we merely want.
 joebobbriggs
Joined: 7/31/2007
Msg: 1632
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 8:18:45 PM
There is also a bit of misinformation going on - on this thread - perpetrated mostly by women. The myth is that women are either Independent or Dependent - which is far from the truth.

Most women are NEITHER. Most women are just capable, hard working good mothers who do not give much thought to the issue - they just do their best as a mom and/or wife and lover - mostly kind and giving to their man and most of these good women are unfortunately married.

The cast of so called Independent women are a minority - the rabid ones are even smaller in number.

Good women are not hard to find - except for the single ones - they are just drown out in the crowd by the blaring of card carrying Independents and their rabid spokeswomen.

JoeBob
 sasyecat
Joined: 10/6/2006
Msg: 1633
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 8:40:36 PM
I'm content with myself, I don't feel I need someone else. but I hope I could someday find a man that can respect my need to have alone time.
 Tukabirdy
Joined: 4/1/2007
Msg: 1634
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 9:09:48 PM

Most women are NEITHER. Most women are just capable, hard working good mothers who do not give much thought to the issue - they just do their best as a mom and/or wife and lover - mostly kind and giving to their man and most of these good women are unfortunately married.

The cast of so called Independent women are a minority - the rabid ones are even smaller in number.

Good women are not hard to find - except for the single ones - they are just drown out in the crowd by the blaring of card carrying Independents and their rabid spokeswomen.


Hey, HEY, some are both....more than you think....they just don't care about the money.....yes, we ARE out here!

I am both and proud of it. I have been the former in his statement and I have been the later also. How so, how can I be both? When I was very unappreciated by my alcoholic husband and/or I've come across friends or women who were good women to their uncaring husbands and felt the need to help them stand up for themselves and value themselves. Some women have worth but don't think they do...physically and mentally.

I never rubbed my Ex's nose for having more financial worth than he did....after all he supported me for years...on paper I have more, jobwise I have nada because I stopped to raise the kids.

I think all people that totally measure a person by financial worth, appearance or material holdings suck. Story....my SIL disliked my father because she THOUGHT he was rich because he played golf, drove an old Jaguar, and just had that aura about him. She loved my mother and stepfather because they were down to earth and frugal, nice folks, you know....not well off.... Well, they are the ones sitting on a gold mine.


I had to cynically giggle about that one....my ex thought she was nuts too. cheeps
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 1635
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 9:28:51 PM
^^^^^I have to agree with the last few posts here. I believe I posted some time ago that I am much more a "traditionalist" than anything else. That is just about as unnerving as "independent" to some. I took a royal POF public beheading for expressing my lack of interest in being "equal" to the man in my life. I don't wish to be any man's equal ~ I just want to be the woman. He can be the man. I can't see where this "movement" (augh ~ I hate the term) did anything for me personally (others can view it however they wish, I'm only stating my opinion.) Ok, so I can vote and I got the privilege of working outside the home (*****cough cough @ privilege*****) and I got to go to college. For me, this so-called "movement" royally screwed my own personal dreams. I did my best to adjust to it, live with it and make the best of it ~ but today, I'd give back every single penny I've ever earned in corp. America to be a stay at home mom/wife. These labels are where the true issues come into play. I'm no one's anything. I'm just me. Hopefully more good than bad, more kind than harsh and most importantly ~ a loyal/faithful friend, confidant, lover, and an overall well-rounded good person. Not much else matters. I certainly would NEVER profess that I'm "independent" and not needing other people in my life. I can live by my own means, I am not dependent on anyone else financially ~ but I definitely NEED others in my life for all kinds of reasons. My dentist first and foremost...(tee hee) It's all just verbage in my opinion. Take away the labels and none of this matters in the grand scheme of things. JMO
 Ron9
Joined: 8/10/2004
Msg: 1636
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 9:50:50 PM
"I don't wish to be any man's equal ~ I just want to be the woman. He can be the man."

OMG a female typed that - a cute one at that.

Back on that other “are men intimidated” thread (the one I got banned for even posting on) I said.

“Why not just be a woman” (vs all the jabber about “are men intimidated”).

I for one don’t have anything but admiration for people that - get going when the going gets tuff but .......

I see so many argumentative ........ self proclaimed independent ...... umm people (don’t want to gender bash) that seems to be one of many characteristics (side effects) that come along with all the “I am independent - I don’t need a man” chants.

I personally am soooooo not interested in people that want to argue at the drop of a hat. Or people that twist what others say into something else to make it sound worse.

example:

“I don’t like to fight”

“Ok what you are saying is - I am a bit@h and you know you can’t win the argument”

I’ve seen guy’s statements twisted to something totally different from what he actually said on this thread. They quote him first then tell everyone what he ******REALLY********* said.

Some of the guys are trying to tell gals our side of all of this - then their words get twisted.

Too many people don’t listen (read) they are not listening - they are formulating a rebuttal - they simple do not listen to the other person’s side - they spend that time preparing their launch (argument).

Actually listening and not twisting the other's words - is Communications 101 - day one.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 1645
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:38:52 AM
Women seem to get the benefit of taking one of two roles. The first, as a financially independent woman who doesn't need a man, and secondly as a more traditional woman who does depend on the man. Men however, get the benefit of one role, the financial breadwinner and even if the woman's making money, they are seen as useless if they don't. So how does the modern woman account for the double standard? And how is that exactly being equal?

Depends who you ask. As long as a man supports himself, he's not questioned by women. These days now that a lot of women ARE self sufficient and times have changed, we are attracted to that in the opposite sex. However, not a lot of us expect a man to take care of us, nor do we want t0 take care of them. Those women who are looking for a partner mainly just want someone who's where they are. Self sufficient - not in terms of a certain amount, but in terms of being ambitious and having a job. ANYONE who's not working because they just don't feel like it is considered useless...personally even if you have money from inheritance and don't have to work, you should have the desire do something with yourself and have a sense of purpose or structure in your life. It's just an attractive quality.

Second, I have heard the term independent used by women in a kind of confident, angry tone, that almost sounds like they are blaming men. But the initial problem was that women were traditionally too clingy. And the reason they were clingy is because they weren't strong enough, financially secure enough, or what not to be independent. So it was their problem in the first place, hence why the angry blaming men tone.

Sounds like you think women were at one time second class citizens by choice...that can't be what I just read. If you mean women gave more power to men than they should have in relationships as recently as 10, 20 maybe 30 years ago - yeah they did. If you are telling me women didn't work or vote or had to marry and have kids over 30 years ago because they chose to, you're dead wrong. Society frowned upon that years ago, and there were few occupations women could get into that were acceptable; even then they were to work only to bide time until they found a suitable husband. Once they had kids, they were expected to stay home and raise them.

Another item is you can't be emotionally aloof, say you don't need someone, or anyone of a whole gender and then be on a dating site. Makes perfect sense, OP. A relationship requires some level of emotional dependence or interdependence. So no need to wag it in the face that you don't need men, just get off the dating website and join the leave me alone website.

We can be open to meeting new members of the opposite sex without feeling like we should depend on them to live. We can want a partner that wants us to be our own person. Putting yourself out there socially and needing a man in your life are not even close to the same thing. We can hope to find someone who loves us for who we are and who believes what we believe, but even if we don't find them - we have to be complete people regardless; happy with who we are and enjoy life single or not.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 1650
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 10:09:14 AM
"dave1234" (message 1795) wrote ...
I think the "problem" is the interpretation of "we always know what we want in life and we always know which direction we are going." Is the independent woman willing to consider what her partner wants in life and where he's going?
Absolutely ... I have a friend in Ohio who is an attorney. We have been talking about him coming down to spend time with me in Florida. He is about to retire after 35 years with the State of Ohio.

I know that if he wanted to work here, he would have to take the bar exam for the state of Florida. But there are other options. If this works out ... there is no reason why I can't work as a nurse here while we spend the winter months here (he will be collecting retirement and really wouldn't have to work) and also work as a nurse in Ohio while we spend the summer months there at his place where he could work as well if he so chooses ... he wants to go into private practice after he retires. I keep my license in both states on active status, so I'm all set. I guess then we would be considered "snowbirds", but not really as he has a residence there and I have a residence here.

When we first met my partner asked how I would deal with her occasional late night at the office and the possibility of a cancelled/altered vacation plan. My reply was to reiterate what I expected from a relationship and that was sex.

Late nights, modified vacations, no interference in personal finances, no dinner, piled up laundry.......no problem. Sex was my one and only stipulation and with good reason.
I think that's cute, funny, and a mixture of other things. I do wonder though how a man would feel if his SO said that. ie ... "I can deal with the occasional late night at the office, and the possibility of a cancelled / altered vacation plan but sex is a must. There must be sex."

BTW ... just for the record ... I don't play those "sexual control" games. I like sex too much to deny my partner and ultimately deny myself then ...

But my question to the men would be ... If a woman said the same thing "There must be sex" ...

**Would he feel "used"?
**Would he eventually get "performance" anxiety?
**What happens then? I've seen threads in here where men are complaining ... a woman can go anytime, but a man has to be able to "perform".
**If he has something on his mind, or is getting older and experiencing problems with ED ... would that be the end of the relationship?

Sex is what holds a romantic relationship together and if/when that's interfered with then there is a major problem.

It's two people touching base, if you will. It puts everything else in perspective and as long as ones independence does not interfere with that all is well.
I agree whole-heartedly. As long as the physical relationship is in tact ... there really never seems to be any other obstacle that presents itself that two people couldn't handle.
 Ron9
Joined: 8/10/2004
Msg: 1656
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 11:59:34 AM
^^^^ THAT is the answer to this question. (two post up that is)

Ultimate - you answered this question but ........... most will not pay any attention to it. They prefer to use that independent crap as rationalization - the old shift the blame.

I've said about the same thing 100 times over the years - they just don't really want the answer.

This "are men intimidated" is the very same attention seeking junk as all the nice guy threads. The added spewing of insults at guys (guys are intimidated by the wonderfullness of me) just gets us guys pizzed off over the insults.

Just for the record - you are NOT going to insult guys into being interested. You may insult them out of being interested but never into it.

Trying to shame someone into liking you >>>>>>> DON’T WORK

- they are shallow >>> DON’T WORK
- nice guys come in last >>> DON’T WORK
- do us overweight people intimidate others >>> DON’T WORK
- are men afraid >>> DON’T WORK
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 1661
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History
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 1:24:55 PM

Men are right to avoid independence that means the woman doesn't really want a relationship, which often times it does. How do you have a relationship with someone who by their subtext are saying they don't want one? impossible. move on.
Exactly.

I was just having a conversation with a good friend (co-worker) who was telling me that she is now in a relationship with a man (for the first time in her life) where he actually allows her to voice her opinion and while he will debate with her occasionally, she is still entitled to her opinion. I wasn't quite sure what she meant by that until she added ...

"In my marriage of over 25 years, my husband was able to support us well and so I did not pursue a career. I stayed at home and took care of the children and kept the home fires burning so to speak. But then I was just 19 when I went into that. It took me a while to discover that being a stay-at-home wife/mother basically meant (in his mind) that I simply had no say-so in how the money would be spent (after all he was the one earning it and by gawd he was going to decide how to spend it) and nothing to say about whether the family was going to move to a whole different part of the country ... he made those decisions and basically never asked me how I felt about it and he let me know that it wouldn't matter anyways ... that's what we were going to do."

So, for her ... while since the divorce she too has gone to nursing school and can now provide for herself (ie is an" independent" woman), being an "independent" woman for her means she's allowed to have a point of view and freely express it and actually expect her SO to sit up and listen. It doesn't matter to her that they don't always agree on everything (and how many couples could always agree on everything anyways?), it matters only that she now has that choice. To her that makes her feel like an "independent" woman. In her mind, the fact that she is self-supporting and can take care of herself is just "understood".

She would not be the kind of woman who would write "I'm an independent woman" in her profile any more than I have done so, but if she did ... that would be how she meant it.

Question ...
**Do men realize that when they see something like that written in a woman's profile ... that it can mean a wide variety of things and not just ... "I don't need a man" or "I want a man who doesn't mind being bossed around / dominated by me?

OR

**Is there just some basic "stereotype", preconceived thought that goes through their minds that this is just another "cranky, self-righteous biotch" wanting a man she can run over at the drop of a hat?
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 1662
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 1:42:06 PM

The "pool" of available men tends to get thinner as women age. Women tend to live longer than men. Men tend to avoid dating women who are older. (unless they want a good inheritance)


LOL ~ you and I obviously swim in a different pool.


Men want a independent woman.
1835
Not all men.


I agree. I am independent because I am alone. If in a good relationship, it's nice to not have to have any power, or gender struggles over anything. I haven't been there, truly since my divorce, but it will be interesting, meshing finances, and all when it does happen. I DO like being the feminine, nurturing one though, and as long as he takes good care of me it'll all be good. Not speaking financially here, but as a woman who likes the security of being in strong arms..............
1839

I so agree.


I would be more inclined to believe that if there weren't so many women on this thread who keep trying to blame men ("insecure", "intimidated") for their being single.
1842

Hmmm ~ guess I missed those particular posts. Seems to me that most women here are attempting to explain things from their own personal experiences. I may have missed the bra burning ceremony the blame-game and those insisting insecurity/intimidation are the cause of their singleness. But then again, maybe I just read with an open mind versus instantenous judgments of people that are really just strangers in little white boxes.


As long as the physical relationship is in tact ... there really never seems to be any other obstacle that presents itself that two people couldn't handle.
1843

cotter: Yep, when the sex wains, disappears, becomes non-existent, or even faulters ~ it's usually a signifier in my relationship that there are some deep-seated other issues. And, it's usually the beginning/middle of the end (which inevitably follows shortly thereafter.) Sigh.


Again, I think part of this problem stems from the fact that most women start to lose their cool when they realize that all men in the universe don't want them, even men they didn't want in the first place, which is just downright baffling.


Yes, I know for my own self, when a man does not show interest in me ~ I literally fall apart. I lose my composure, my self-esteem, my ability to eat, my world becomes a place filled with obsessive/compulsive thoughts screaming, "WHY? WHY? WHY?" (PFT............PLEASE ~ that is about the silliest statement I've read in weeks, good for a giggle though. )


Folks, this includes men and women, have to stop finding things to focus on and blame to explain away why no one wants to date them. It really isn't that hard but people want to make it hard because they don't want to have to accept that they need to make changes to get the things that they want.
1847

If I need to change him or myself to make things workable, he's the WRONG man for me. It's pretty simple ~ like me, love me, or a combination of both, but you try to change me, it's O-V-E-R. Likewise, if I find myself wanting to change something or multiple things about any man ~ what's going to change is my "status" with that man.


"Men are intimidated by my independence!"

Yeah, that's a load of BS. Men are never that complicated. If a man isn't paying you any attention or asking you out, he's not attracted to you. It's that simple.
1847

Ummm, I wonder if you neglect to realize that it takes two willing parties to meet/date/forge a relationship ???? I don't give a ratz-azz who isn't attracted to me, because it's probably quite mutual. I'm just as un-interested in certain men as they are lacking interest in me. I'm not sure about other women, but I never lost sleep wondering, "Why isn't he interested in me?"


How can you call a woman independent if she keeps trying to blame others ("insecure men") for her own situation? I would hardly call a lack of willingness to take responsibility for their own situations being "independent".
1850

Personally, I'm single by choice. It's just that simple. No blame to place on myself or anyone else. I am single, have been and will continue to be by my own choice ~ I might be exceedingly "traditional" when in a relationship, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm willing to jump into a relationship just to be "traditional."


If you are happy with being alone, why advertise on a site?

Because I can.


Maybe in case prince charming meets your impossible checklist? On the other hand it really should be the onus on the guy to weed out from their selections women who really aren't looking. There are a lot of them out there, especially those out of the breeding age range.

Oh holy hell ~ I've been non-breedable since age 24. LMAO ~ I wonder if my ex's realize that they loved me when I wasn't breeding material. Guess I should give a few of them a call to find out. (Errrr, maybe you meant "pro-creatable"..... because I'm certainly still "breedable" so to speak. Tee hee. )


Most threads like these are debated ferociously by women who arent looking, and have given up, many of whom are over 40 debating younger men at a different stage in their lives. They cant find what they want or arent attractive enough for an ltr, so they unilaterally claim they don't need a man. Truth is emotionally we do need others and to claim otherwise is self deception. Thats why we are still on forums, becuase it makes us sociable even when single.
1851

I had absolutely NO clue being attractive was a pre-requisite to a ltr. I am now enlightened.

~OT~ Drop the terminology, the labels, the hostility ~ leave forums and go profile lurking. Write a few emails, go out into the real world and meet a man/woman who likes you just as you are. There are plenty of men who prefer more "traditional" women and there are those who want more "equality" in their personal relationships. Dear me, it's not like re-inventing the wheel ~ it's simple male/female interaction.
 dave1234
Joined: 11/7/2004
Msg: 1663
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 2:59:29 PM

(Msg 1843) I agree whole-heartedly. As long as the physical relationship is in tact ... there really never seems to be any other obstacle that presents itself that two people couldn't handle.


Exactly! It seems there are very few people who realize that. They think that sex is only about....well, sex.


But my question to the men would be ... If a woman said the same thing "There must be sex" ...

**Would he feel "used"?
**Would he eventually get "performance" anxiety?
**What happens then? I've seen threads in here where men are complaining ... a woman can go anytime, but a man has to be able to "perform".
**If he has something on his mind, or is getting older and experiencing problems with ED ... would that be the end of the relationship?


Because sex is about more than sex, meaning actual intercourse, there is no reason for a man to feel inadequate. If one of the many medications on the today’s market can’t help there are still ways to satisfy ones partner. After all, many women already satisfy themselves sexually without a man except for the human touch, that is.

I think the hidden "fear" is if a man can not keep up sexually with his gal he knows she can easily supplement it. On the other hand it would be a great problem to have.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 1668
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 3:58:40 PM

The majority of men's profiles that I read list "must be independant" as a requirement — seriously, just about every profile.
While I do have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of men have their own view (perhaps preconceived) of what it means when a woman writes in her profile that she is "independent" ...

I wonder how the men (who have that as a requirement in their own profiles) would define it ...

... I wonder what they mean by "must be independent"?

Personally I would interpret it to mean that they do expect the lady to be self-supporting.

On the other hand, I have experienced that some of the gentlemen are wanting a lady who can be free to travel with them ... no family obligations (children, grandchildren, caregiver situations, no pets, etc.)

I know this because that is what they tell me they want from me. (Obviously my age plays a factor in that equation.) I do have retired gentlemen contacting me and they are ready to put their suits in the closet and slip into their casual wear and hit the road. I cannot accommodate that as I am still pursuing my career and would get 2 weeks per year for such purposes ... tops.

So no matter how much I'd like to pursue a friendship / eventual relationship with them, I already know from the git go that my not being free to just drop everything and go will be a big deal. No sense in even putting time into it because we all know that is already going to put a real drag on things.

What choice do I have except to say ... "Sorry, I got a late start on my career and I have to stay put 50 weeks out of the year in order to pay my bills." Otherwise, I would become just that what he is trying to avoid ... a burden.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 1672
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:15:56 PM
For all the back and forth between the genders, neither has the market cornered on the "darned if you do" "darned if you don't".

I haven't done any scientific research (tongue in cheek!!) but I do think that many women who may have it in their profile do for the purpose of letting a prospective man know that they don't require financial support. There's many other threads that bear out how important an issue this seems to be, so maybe they're just thinking they'd overcome that objection right off.

So just consider that maybe some of the women that have that on their profile just do so to alleviate a concern about being thought of as someone that's after a man's wallet.
It's another "darned if you do""darned if you don't" situation, and yes it does happen to women, too.

As someone said, it was said dozens of pages ago, men DO date independent women, have long term relationships, marriages and long happy lives together. Some don't or won't and do want a woman to support and take care of. It's an individual choice, neither is wrong.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 1679
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 5:24:14 PM

I would look at other guys' profiles, but it'd kinda feel like when you avoid at all costs even glancing at another man's package after the shower at the gym.

Yikes!

C'mon guys ... where's your spirit of adventure?
 ladywyatt
Joined: 6/28/2007
Msg: 1681
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 5:57:21 PM
I happen to be one of those "****es" who make the statement that I am independent.
My statement that I am independent means....I am not looking for someone to pay my way, bail me out or make my life financially better....I am looking for a life partner....period.
My financial independence came from no other source than from my own hard work...not from an inheritance and not from an ex....I got nothing out of my divorce.
I have listened to man after man tell me about "rescuing" a poor helpless woman by paying her bills and buying her things such as cars, only for her to take the money and run......
So if that makes me a ****....so be it.....at least I'm not a blood sucking leech.
B-beautiful
I-intelligent
T-terrific
C-charming
H-hot mama
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 1683
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:04:23 PM

LOL I believe this is called selective listening; or, selective reading, in this case. I quoted two examples in msg 1840 of this happening, and they were posted as recently as yesterday. And anybody who cares to can go back through the 70+ pages of this thread and find example after example of women saying "men are just afraid of our independence". So if you have "missed those particular posts", it's because you're not paying attention. "Open-minded", huh....?


Just because I didn't validate your post/opinion or agree with you doesn't necessarily mean I've missed anything. Just like you, I could site many posts from this thread that would/could/might/may devalue your opinion, verbage, ideology, etc. But that would be silly. As for open-mindedness, if I'm not learning something from someone else's perspective ~ I'm wasting my time here. I'm sort of a glass half full kind of gal. Emotional vampires and I don't usually see eye to eye. Stereo-typing, trash talking, gender bashing and the other types of things that are prevelent (here in forums at times) aren't needed noticing/validation by me ~ there are plenty of others taking care of that side of this debate. I can assure you ~ I miss very little. And now, this is where you and I part ways, as this is technically called an "impasse".

~OT~ As an independent thinker (HA...there's that icky word again) I prefer to see something worthwhile in most things ~ seems to work for me, even if my way doesn't work for someone else. To each their own.

PS: I am headed over to Sans for dinner with her cats, those dudes are having steak tonight!!!
 kayceemenow
Joined: 7/11/2007
Msg: 1691
Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:45:50 PM
I'm way behind on this, but I just wanted to tell you that you are, in my opinion, exactly right. I am extremely independent and I think a lot of the guys that I have dated have been intimidated and tried to control me and that doesn't work. It is really hard to find someone that can handle a woman who doesn't want to be handled. There are a lot of men out there who think they would like an independent woman and will tell you so, but in the end it is found out by both parties that was not the case. I commend all the men out there who date truly independent woman, I know a few of them and they are a rare breed, but they are out there.
 forum_moderator
Joined: 1/24/2003
Msg: 1694
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Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 8:35:56 PM
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