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 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 43
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History
Cultural DiversityPage 3 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
You can say whatever you want about what land belongs to who but the fact of the

matter is that throughout the known history of the World, If you do not or cannot defend

yourself against an occupying force, you lose. You no longer have the right to say you

still own the land. Land all over the other continents has changed hands so many times

that it is unknown who could qualify as first nations people and be demanding aboriginal

rights. Someone please explain to me why it should be any different in Canada or the US.

I understand that treaty's or agreements were signed, and those should be honoured.

However it seems that the Government has gone far beyond those agreements in providing

benefits to so-called aboriginal people. The other side of it is that certain so-called

first nations people are demanding far more than the original treaties allowed for.
 raspberries n cream
Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 45
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/8/2006 11:41:09 PM

You can say whatever you want about what land belongs to who but the fact of the

matter is that throughout the known history of the World, If you do not or cannot defend

yourself against an occupying force, you lose. You no longer have the right to say you

still own the land. Land all over the other continents has changed hands so many times

that it is unknown who could qualify as first nations people and be demanding aboriginal

rights. Someone please explain to me why it should be any different in Canada or the US.

I understand that treaty's or agreements were signed, and those should be honoured.

However it seems that the Government has gone far beyond those agreements in providing

benefits to so-called aboriginal people. The other side of it is that certain so-called

first nations people are demanding far more than the original treaties allowed for.


And what are you doing here: re-writing the Constitution? I dont see that the natives had any problems defending themselves against an "occupying force". If you knew your so called 'world history" you would know that ever since barbarian and hun invasions were put to the boots by mighty Thor that the only alternative to blood sweat and tears is to reach same ends by talking.

You take a box and you put aboriginal rights in it. Land over all the other "continents" has changed hands so many times youre not sure who was here or there first? And yet all those anthropologists and archeologists sitting in bars as we speak saluting Hitler. Amazing.

And if I tell you once I'll tell you again if not a thousand times til Im red and white in the face....land "ownership" is an imported concept. You cant sell me a piece of the sky and tell me its for sale. I know you dont own it.
 raspberries n cream
Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 47
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/8/2006 11:50:03 PM

Curious where these "facts" came from. I believe everyone should be equal. If first nations want to be exempt from the things like taxes, then they should live as they did when taxes weren't around. Yet the first nations want to use every modern convenience available, but not pay tax for them like the rest of us. If you were alive in 1800 and there were no taxes then sure, no tax for you....I am sorry, I disagree...I like equality. We (all races) made this country what it is....live in it and love it...it is the best.

VV "canadian law" only brought in because of certain peoples fighting for exemption. I would post below...but 2/10 doesn't allow.


Curiousity would be a start. I sure dont want a full time job to preach about the benefits of learning about your own countries laws and history. Maybe I'll do a museum guide thing touring though one day.

Its not like if you visited any native reserve and investigated you wouldnt want to re-examine your own truth. Saying: I want or think everyone should be treated or looked at as equal is a nice PLATITUDE. Cept the government of the past didnt support that view
and yet now they do ( and now you dont?)....theres some irony and inconsistency there and I wonder if you can see it.

I think I know what you mean though ...at the end of the day, there be one, I am as tired of hearing and talking about native rights as anyone.

The majority of natives live off-reserve. Therefore the natives pay taxes. Martinites wanted to focus on reserves and Harperites the cities where urban antives are. And here we are...blathering away.

well I dont know about you...but I am.
 bcboy72
Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 49
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/8/2006 11:57:07 PM
your govt segregated


"your" instead of ours...it is still there. While things may have been done wrong in the past, why isn't it that we can't see our way into the future? Why can't we all be one in the same?

On a subnote...Asian chicks are hot...Is that not cultural diversity?
 raspberries n cream
Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 50
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/8/2006 11:57:19 PM
I think the New Relationship is a good thing dont you? I mean how do we get people to accept the fact that we are gaining equality? Or should we even bother trying? Is that part of the "fight" worth the effort? I know this....the earth is like a Mother to whom which we all
one day return...back to the whom...some believe in an after-life ("if youre good")
but we all face the same fate..and everyday we are given choices. Everday its a fight. Protect this earth that was given to sustain us..all of it, the air, the water, the trees, the rocks...everything...everything is circular. Gnight POF, on this rig, were all Indians because we pick names for ourselves like the way indians did.....even Brad.
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 52
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 12:16:31 AM
That's right bigduck. "All for One...and One for All..!!

I believe that by segregating any group or race and allowing them access to certain benefits not accessable to all, or restricting certain benefits that are allowed to everyone else, you create dissention. An example of this is that many Canadians feel a certain animosity towards Quebec. The feeling is that they are being treated as special due to certain benefits not afforded to all Canadians.

One solution may be to not only provide universal and timely access to medical treatment but to also provide a Guaranteed Annual Income that is adequate enough to provide for the basic necessities in life. This income would be available to all that, due to their particular circumstances, earned less than a predetermined income. Eliminate Welfare, EI, Canada Pension, and Old Age Security. The welfare system has become so bizarre that it is basically non-functional anyway and with a GAI in place the System would actually save money by eliminating at least 3 bureaucracies. While we are at it we may as well provide universal access to an education appropriate to every individual.

I suspect that we would see a 90% drop in the crime rate in this country within 5 years...or less.

All for One..and One for All....Count me in!


 bcboy72
Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 55
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 1:11:33 AM
"Yours" "Ours" ...that is unity for you.

I suggest you look out your back door lipstick, realise that you(we) don't live in a third world country, and embrace what we have. We have a great country, but until we can live equally, it will never be right. Where do my taxes go? Your health care, my health care, everyone's health care (health care being an example).....where do yours go? Oh that is right...you don't pay them.

I guess the whole point of the matter here is....why aren't we equal? Everyone started somewhere...Everyone(race/nationality...etc) has been wronged at some time or another...no denying that. We need to wake up and realise we are equals. We need to be able to "flip the bird"(if you know what that is) at whatever we want...eat chicken with ketchup...whatever...
 bcboy72
Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 60
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 1:37:01 AM
You beat me to it duck...2/10 sucks..lol....

Which guy..midget or not...looks past Cnotes crotch?
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 61
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 1:38:54 AM
Generalizing many of us utilize eh' after every sentence that we speak. I had an American Guest at work ask why we Canadians did this and I had to stop and think why we did, when one of my staff members popped up with the most brilliant of answers.

He explained that we do this as it turns a statement into a question and in doing so illicits further conversation, for example: the sky is blue versus the sky is blue eh?


What about "Have a nice day, eh."?

or "God you are beautiful, eh"

I think it may be more about politeness (Those Canadians are so Polite)

You make a bold statement, "You are so stupid" and then bring it into question with an "eh" at the end.

"You are so stupid, eh". A kinder, gentler approach, as it were.
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 62
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 3:40:40 AM

And what are you doing here: re-writing the Constitution? I dont see that the natives had any problems defending themselves against an "occupying force". If you knew your so called 'world history" you would know that ever since barbarian and hun invasions were put to the boots by mighty Thor that the only alternative to blood sweat and tears is to reach same ends by talking.

You take a box and you put aboriginal rights in it. Land over all the other "continents" has changed hands so many times youre not sure who was here or there first? And yet all those anthropologists and archeologists sitting in bars as we speak saluting Hitler. Amazing.

And if I tell you once I'll tell you again if not a thousand times til Im red and white in the face....land "ownership" is an imported concept. You cant sell me a piece of the sky and tell me its for sale. I know you dont own it.


So I have said land ownership instead of land occupation. Oops.

Who occupied the American Continents before the Europeans arrived? It wasn't one nation, that's for sure. It was a multitude of different nations, cultures, languages and customs. And they occupied territory. And they fought each other over whose right to occupy which territory. They killed each other in order to occupy more territory. Better fishing, better hunting, better climate, whatever the reason, they tried to improve their situation. So don't preach to me over ownership or occupation of land. Your ancestors were all about land occupation.

As for me, my ancestors were forced to flee from several countries and 2 continents by the respective governments in power. They supposedly owned the land but apparently only occupied it and not for long at that. Most who didn't flee, died fighting for their right to own the land. My parents and grandparents were born in Canada. They maintained their culture and language and were also forced from homestead land in Canada that they were told they would own if they cleared the brush and made it productive, which they did. In the end they only occupied it and then it was taken back by the government. The government then sold it to settlers with money who could afford to buy it. Some of my relatives were able to pool their resources and buy some of the land back from the government and are still farming it. You know that bread you ate today, came off their farms.

I don't bemoan the fact that I didn't continue my heritage, language or culture as my parents did. I could still do that if I wished to as I am still alive. My children could also do so if they wished to. We are not whining about the fact that we did not learn our ancestoral language although we may have future regrets about not passing this to our children.

I have grinded my way out of a life in the ghetto of poverty and squallor in order to make a better life for myself and my children. I have worked hard all my life in order to do so. I feel that any success or fortune or possessions I have are because I have earned them by hard work. I have felt that that it is the Canadian way. I have bought and sold land but have only considered myself a custodian of the land that I have occupied and still do. I have taken care of the land that I have occupied and made improvments to it. If I decide to pass the custodial possesion of this land on to someone else, I will take whatever the currency of the land is at the time in an amount that is agreed on and move on. Of course I understand that at any time, the presiding or occupying government could take away my custodial possesion of this land without compensation just as has happened to my ancestors. It is the human way after all as history has proved over and over.

Like I wrote on another thread, it's "What You Do With What You've Got"

So on that note, I will move on to another more important subject.
 bcboy72
Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 64
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 9:00:20 AM
"your people" and "our people", those would be your words Lipstick...and this is exactly what I am talking about...you obviously have no interest in unity.

The last time I checked, everyone that didn't have a dental plan or cash got turned away at the dentists office, no matter the race...so not sure where you are going with that...

Stolen land? Every piece of land on this continent, actually, this earth, was inhabited at some time or another by someone/something else. Darwins "theory of evolution", and "survival of the fittest" come to mind here.

It is all about equality...across the board...man, woman, native, caucasion, chinese, japanese...whatever.....

Does this mean we won't be having dinner together tonight?

2/10...done for a bit.
 Draxx
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 66
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 9:29:03 AM

Herve doesn't really mind though, as he's only yey-high. He can't see past my crotch, so I doubt he even knows it's me.


So he would shout "de plain boss, de plain" (a strip of relatively flat and normally dry area alongside a stream, or river, that is covered by water during a flood.)
 Apollo_fallen
Joined: 1/24/2006
Msg: 69
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 3:36:22 PM
Many years ago we as native people were set apart in all things, business, education, and rights. We did not make these rules or right. Now that the world can see the genocide (small pox infested blankets), and abuse coming out of residential school, all people say is one right, one people.

The motto for residential schools used to be kill the indian and save the man.

But we define oursevles. We are not indian. That we Columbus' mistake.
We have rights that were granted to us. And we have lawyers nowaday that aim to make sure those rights are inforced. In my tribe we have three lawyers that are members.

So my view to non-natives is mean what you say, say what you mean.

I think the term that the non-natives used to have for those that lied about granting rights to a group of people and then backing out was "Indian giver".

Now I know that us people nowadays had nothing to do with the rights granted so many years ago. none the less, they exist and are part of this political landscape we call north america.
But right now many seem to engage in what I call "rights envy".
respectfully submitted
 spent
Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 70
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 5:36:07 PM
Canadians see themselves as morally superior to other races and nations. I dont know how we reconcile this with the fact that we so recently wiped out the indians and took their land. I dont see anything wrong with us defeating the natives; might was right in those days and it still is, but it is hard to think of a worse case of genocide. Making an undeserving black person Governer General, i think, is a pretty weak way of demonstrating our moral superiority. Labelling people who support white rights as racists and criminals is bizarre when ordinary Canadians hold much more hardline opinions about foreigners.
 raspberries n cream
Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 71
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 6:27:29 PM
I gotta laugh at bc boy, you sound like a real riot..

let me add some key breakers here

the benefits indians get for status are next to nothing, even the canadian dental association is fed up with the nonsense of filling out redundant forms and seem to be on the same page as danceseeker at least as far as attitude goes...

basically you get free glasses every two years (if you need them and when and if you do: head for the cheap section i.e. cheepies) and the 'free' dental you get is so stupid its like you get some free check ups and anything else fil out in triplicate wait for an answer get it apporoved pay for it and then the govt reimburses the dentist...its so stupid its like someone planned it diabolically to fail

but now we are a the point where we might get enough to privatize our own health
insurance (not HC service neccessarily) to enjoy the benefits

Ok sio plus you get FREE education, the process for that is youre lucky if you were born post 1980 because theres a line-up and a limited kitty for each band for education allowance and someones gotta get the short end of the stick, right?

So , only natives who live on reserves DONT pay taxes. Guess what> Hardly anyone works on reserves due to unemployment. Around and around we go and where it stops nobody knows.
So why waste five thousand dollars woth of psychic energy on a two cent problem IMHO, they need help. Lets do what we can. Because thats Canadian and now pass me a Budweiser!!
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 72
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 6:30:45 PM

Back to diversity-it looks to me like we still have a way to go to be able to truly say we are accepting of all cultures, as I suspected. What does it take? Is it in communication and education? Does fault belong with us (as Canadians) for being close minded, or does fault belong with other cultures not wanting to conform to our way of life? Are we all guilty to some degree?


I have read somewhere that it take 4 generations before the hate, anger, resentment, fear, associated with predudices towards a person, group, or culture can be eliminated from the minds of any resulting offspring. As I said in an earlier post, I am a third generation Canadian, and it has been difficult to suppress those latent predudices that I inherited or learned from my predecessors. I have been very careful to not say or do things around my children that might ingraine predudices in them. I have confronted my parents (mostly my Dad) on their outspoken predudices in front of my children in order that they learn that it is not right.

Four years ago, I was shaken to the core when my eldest daughter arrived at her high school graduation dinner with a very adult-looking black escort. He was dressed in a very white suit with an inordinate amount of gold jewellry adorning his fingers, wrists, neck and ears. It took a huge effort to put my predudices aside, shake his hand, offer a pleasant greeting, and initiate a conversation in order to find out who this person behind the "Pimp" outfit really was. It turned out that he was just another of a mixed group of friends that she hung out with in high school. His parents had imigrated to Canada from Jamaica and in their culture, he was as dressed-up as one could possibly be.

It was a defining moment for me as I realized that just maybe, I had not passed on my ancestoral predudices to my offspring.

Thats how it works folks. It takes a conscious effort to stop predudice. Every day. It doesn't just go away.
 raspberries n cream
Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 73
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 6:31:00 PM
Holy, you think genocide had something to do with pox infested blankets? Welcome to the new century. Welcome to the new century...

Dont hold your breath for the Hollywood version of this to be coming to a theatre any time soon...so far everyone is still busy getting it back

http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 75
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 7:10:45 PM

the benefits indians get for status are next to nothing, even the canadian dental association is fed up with the nonsense of filling out redundant forms and seem to be on the same page as danceseeker at least as far as attitude goes...


Raspberries, I am not sure what you are meaning by this comment about attitude.

My attitude is that we are all equal. It just seems to me that some people are expressing an opinion that implies that their culture or race is more equal or deserving than others and are requiring some kind of special treatment or benefits.


basically you get free glasses every two years (if you need them and when and if you do: head for the cheap section i.e. cheepies) and the 'free' dental you get is so stupid its like you get some free check ups and anything else fil out in triplicate wait for an answer get it apporoved pay for it and then the govt reimburses the dentist...its so stupid its like someone planned it diabolically to fail


My daughters last pair of eyeglasses cost $400. I was just to the dentist last week and after a cleaning and 3 minor fillings paid $900. These fees are not covered by health care. I would be happy to fill out some forms to regain that $1300.

Maybe you might want to spend more time appreciating what you do have and receive and less time dwelling on some ingrained perception that somehow you or your race or your culture deserve more than others in this country.

There are many issues that need solving in this country. It is time that we put our energies into solutions and stop all the bickering.

Now, would you mind if I have a swig of your Bud?
 raspberries n cream
Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 76
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 7:17:13 PM
See what I mean...youre right about perception. The help for natives is all optics on the part of the government. If you 'll follow me on this one there might be a momentum in the future to privatize our own health insurance like the way corporations provide benefits for
employees. And end this bickering. I know one thing: respect is all a relative thing. natives hate being patronized. It will take a lot of work on parts of governments to undue past injustices.

For instance, talking to Brad here hoping hes reading this, once the furs were depleted and the wars were over (count the dead soldiers and indians) natives were of no "value".


History is not a morality play is it?
 spent
Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 81
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 7:48:52 PM
"if my great grandfather incurred a debt to someone, would the debtor's relatives collect from me? no."

Canadians have lived such soft lives free of competition for resources that we dont really understand life. The fact is that might/power always wins and is always good. More powerful people always will take from the weak. It is part of the physics of the universe. We defeated the French and indians and we subjugated them. They are losers and that is the only way it can be. It is totally impossible to go back and change history. Varous waves of natives migrated down north america wiping out the preceding wave. It is just a natural process.

I do , however, believe that descendents should be responsible for financial debts of their parents. The Germans caused two world wars and I think the descendents should be punished because they carry the genes of the nazis who caused so much trouble for my people. If you want to discourage the Hitlers of the world you punish their descendents because the whole point of life is getting your genes into next generation. It is totally irrelevant if the descendent has not committed any crime. People are punished all the time for just being unlucky.ie getting cancer at young age.
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 85
view profile
History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 8:30:55 PM
This is the point that I have been trying to make....that different cultures have different values. How could one consider any one value right and another wrong.


What are the values of the Taliban culture that cause them to go out and massacre innocent people on a daily basis. They are living amongst us, just waiting for the right moment.

Right or Wrong?

I do not understand it and I certainly will not accept it. Is it just me or......?
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 88
view profile
History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 8:43:43 PM

Again you have to read the facts on the Taliban. Know your facts. Stereotypes and racisim breeds on the ignorant and those that are not so inclined to do the work or the research to find out the facts. Exactly how many live here and who are your sources?


I know someone who works with CSIS and he tells me things that he likely shouldn't. I have said too much already and now they will have to kill me. Dammit, I told him not to tell me that shit.
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 96
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/9/2006 11:41:45 PM

I still cant understand why we arent hearing voices from a larger variety of cultures.....


Maybe you should name a few, list some of their faults, get them riled up. Stir the pot as it were.
 carp eh diem
Joined: 3/5/2006
Msg: 101
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History
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/10/2006 1:52:38 AM
My stance on this thread remains constant and no intention of stirring any pot. Perhaps I will never be able to travel the globe, yet at the same time I have such a passion for understanding others. If through talking to others I can try to be open and understand...whether it be First Nations Culture (which I might add I would like to know much more on beliefs) or what it is like to live in Calcutta, or Hong Kong, or Seul or pick your city and how moving here has affected them I am interested.


Well good luck on getting responses on this forum.

I have met a variety of people of different cultures since moving to the coast about a year ago. The woman who gives me a Thai Massage, The Taiwanese women that help with the dance lessons in OP. My Japanese dance partner whom I just completed 16 weeks of dance lessons with, the nanny next door from Brazil, the Chinese family that run the corner grocery, the gal from the Phillipines that married the owner of the thrift shop, the Shiatsu massage guy from Cuba, the waitress from Guyana, the Jamaican cabbie that drove me to the airport a while back (a long drive and conversation), the great Pakistani mechanic (who makes it possible to keep driving my 18-year-old car) who worked in the Jaguar factory in England before moving to Canada (he was actually born and grew up in South Africa).

These are folks that I have talked with at length about their experiences before and after moving to Canada. They are all very happy to be here and except for the gal from Brazil, have no intention of moving back to their homeland. The Brazilian girl, only 18, was quite homesick for her family and has returned. They all seem to have the same affinity to the mixed-bag of cultures found in Canada and that is likely what has drawn them to live here from the outset. Their religions are Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist, non-religious or unknown as it doesn't really matter to me.

I have not met any First Nations folks on the coast however I have met many in Southern Alberta where I lived for 30 years. Those that I have met in Alberta seem to be as content with their situation and lives as everyone else. My brother dated and lived with a First Nations gal for a few years and I believe that I met most of her immediate and rather large extended family. She was attending school part time to get her teaching degree and worked at the school on the reserve. Her mother was attending the U of C for a Law Degree. My Brother broke up with her about 2 years ago. She still sends me email jokes. I still haven't forgiven him.

Apparently there are some contentious First Nation issues in BC that I am not aware of. A little research will hopefully correct my ignorance.
 spent
Joined: 5/9/2006
Msg: 103
Cultural Diversity
Posted: 5/10/2006 12:37:34 PM
Genocide has occurred in every culture and era of history. It will happen again in Canada. Lets stay the majority.
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