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 Vicki159
Joined: 6/3/2014
Msg: 143
Unconditional love?? Page 7 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Unconditional Love requires at least one of the parties to be in an extreme subservient position "StepFord Wife-ism" which means you would not argue but offer suggestions in a calming matter


I dont consider when I love that Im in a subservient position at all. Im putting myself in a vulnerable one where I might get hurt but thats not the same as being subsurvient.


maintaining boundaries is placing conditions, not accepting certain behavior means you are unwilling to accept the person as a whole which in turn cancels out Unconditional


But when you have children who many feel is the only time you love unconditional, a large part of parenting is setting and maintianing boundaries. I dont feel it means you are unwilling to accept that person, you unwilling to accept a certain behaviour. Its a bit like saying I love you very much but right now I dont like you.


that's sounds more "like" than Love


Hmmmm we seem to be working back to front lol.


if you feel hate 24 hours 7 days week then it's probably due to some disorder...the same with Love...so if one feels Unconditional Love 24/7 it's probably OCD


Im not a big hater but yes if your feeling that all day then Id say youve got a problem. But to me you dont feel love 24/7, you might not think about them 24/7. Unconditional love to me means that the person you love is free to be the person they are and you love them. So that person isnt with you all day, your not necessarily thinking about them all day they are doing what they want the way they want to, you might not see them for week or a month but the bond is there and the love for them is there and always will be. In fact I would say if you was subservient and together every minute of every day then you are placing a condition on the person. Your not allowing them to be who they are, you are making the condition that they have to be with you and be who you want.


because it borders on Obsession


By contrast, unconditional love is frequently used to describe love between family members, comrades in arms and between others in highly committed relationships.


The easiest way I think I can explain what Im trying to say is to use the comrades in arms. When people go into the army they come together with as very different people. They train together, learn new skills (not even the same skills) and work together as a team (you need different views, opinions and skills to make an effect team). You then go to war and fight together, rely on each other and in doing so you form an understanding of each other that you can read each other so well you can trust that person because you can judge how they will react. Thats what I mean by attune. When you have experienced that together the bond you form is IMO unconditional. You know that person faults and all, accept them and respect them. That doesnt mean you are together 24/7 or feeling the emotion 24/7 after you leave you may not see them for months even years. But when you come back together that bond is there, unchanging.
 sunnydaysss
Joined: 8/26/2013
Msg: 144
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 6:04:19 AM
Hi there, well that's a good question I have no idea

I lose my temper with people over spilling coffee on my rug

So leave the saints of the world to give the love

Peace hugs:)
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 145
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 7:15:19 AM

The easiest way I think I can explain what Im trying to say is to use the comrades in arms. When people go into the army they come together with as very different people. They train together, learn new skills (not even the same skills) and work together as a team (you need different views, opinions and skills to make an effect team). You then go to war and fight together, rely on each other and in doing so you form an understanding of each other that you can read each other so well you can trust that person because you can judge how they will react. Thats what I mean by attune. When you have experienced that together the bond you form is IMO unconditional. You know that person faults and all, accept them and respect them. That doesnt mean you are together 24/7 or feeling the emotion 24/7 after you leave you may not see them for months even years. But when you come back together that bond is there, unchanging.


It was the best of times It was the worst of times....a Tale Of Two Loves

"Regular Love" is generally used in reference to the best of times....therefore would not "Unconditional love" be used in reference to the worst of times

in your posts you gave examples of only "the best of times" there were no examples that would test anyone's resolve as to why the love your were describing would be classified as being Unconditional or "the worst of times" ...

I will attempt to give an example of Unconditional Love and why Unconditional Love would fall into the category of mental disorder and/or lack of esteem

FOR EXAMPLE
you met someone and over time fall deeply in Love but after a while they start abusing you and your children and your friend ask you why don't you leave and you answer..."Because I Love the person" ....

so what type of Love is that? ..is it Unconditional?..and what does it say about the person's frame of mind
 Vicki159
Joined: 6/3/2014
Msg: 146
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 7:41:17 AM

you met someone and over time fall deeply in Love but after a while they start abusing you and your children and your friend ask you why don't you leave and you answer..."Because I Love the person" ....


I dont class that as unconditional love. The condition is that Im getting my needs met by staying with you because I LOVE YOU. If it was unconditional love you would do what was right for that person. ie I will not stay with you because your behaviour is not acceptable to me nor would it be to anyone else. The best I can do for you is to leave you so that you realise the consequences of your behaviour and hopefully become a better person or the person you truly want to be. I therefore sacrifice my wants (in this senario that would be I want to stay with you because I love you) to do what is best for you.


and what does it say about the person's frame of mind


IMO what it says about that person who stays, they know how to love but they do not have enough self esteem or confidence in their self to be able to love unconditionally, or at least love that person unconditionally (they might be able to do so to others such as their children parents or a different partner ect). Unconditionally I guess would be IMO, Im an independant person, someone who stands seperately from you. I dont need you for anything, I can survive well without you but I love you. Not for anything you can give to me or provide for me but just because you are who you are and I love you.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 147
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 7:48:28 AM

But when you have children who many feel is the only time you love unconditional,


Unconditional Love for a Child is just an assumption that society choose to believe that parents have for their children, parents might find it rather embarrassing to admit to others that they don't like their child ...because let's face it some parents do have "Children of The Corn" "Damien Omen II, Rosemary's Baby, The Demon Seed, The Bad Seed, Micheal Myers ..but hey what's you going to do
 ryuoki
Joined: 11/15/2013
Msg: 148
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History
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 8:05:30 AM

I dont class that as unconditional love. The condition is that Im getting my needs met by staying with you because I LOVE YOU. If it was unconditional love you would do what was right for that person. ie I will not stay with you because your behaviour is not acceptable to me nor would it be to anyone else.


Agree Vicky. This is exactly why I am not with my sons mother after 7 years of trying to make it work. She gave me a wonderful son, and I will always love her for that regardless. But the fact that she and I could not make it work, it was best to separate and find someone else who could fill the needs I wasn't receiving. Still looking though >.<
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 149
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 8:11:07 AM

I dont class that as unconditional love. The condition is that Im getting my needs met by staying with you because I LOVE YOU. If it was unconditional love you would do what was right for that person. ie I will not stay with you because your behaviour is not acceptable to me nor would it be to anyone else. The best I can do for you is to leave you so that you realise the consequences of your behaviour and hopefully become a better person or the person you truly want to be. I therefore sacrifice my wants (in this senario that would be I want to stay with you because I love you) to do what is best for you.


but you mention nothing about your children being abused which would have displayed your Unconditional Love as the reason you dump the abuser......you were all for the betterment of the abuser which is not Unconditional Love nor Love but Altruism
 Vicki159
Joined: 6/3/2014
Msg: 150
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 8:25:49 AM

but you mention nothing about your children being abused which would have displayed your Unconditional Love as the reason you dump the abuser......


I dont really understand what you are saying here? Unconditional love for who? allowing a man to abuse my children is unconditional love for who? or dumping a man who is abusing my children is unconditional love for who?


you were all for the betterment of the abuser which is not Unconditional Love nor Love but Altruism


Yes I was referring to unconditional love for a SO. I dont think its specific to your children, I just think with your children it never goes away. But with your children you do correct bad behaviour and you do eventually let them go to be who they want to be. The unconditional bit being 'who they want to be'. If they fall flat on their face and mess up, you still love them as much as if they were highly successful. But if you dont let your children go you are placing a condition on them. You are getting your needs met instead of meeting theirs.

ps I wouldnt allow my children to be abused. I wouldnt allow a man to abuse me either (I was in an abusive relationship when I was younger, it damaged me. Id never be in another one and Id spot it a mile off. I dont have men I date around my children. I only have family and friends I have known a long time around them. Even then they arent often away from me, other than when they are with there dad. Id kill him if I thought he abused them and he would me as well). I dont consider an abusive relationship to be good for anyone and the best thing to do is end it and walk away. It best for everyone.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 151
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 9:06:14 AM

Yes I was referring to unconditional love for a SO.


my point is once times got worst you choose to dump the person you claimed to have Unconditional Love for ...

Unconditional Love would require the two parties supposedly in Love to stick together not only during the good times but also the bad times....
 Vicki159
Joined: 6/3/2014
Msg: 152
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/20/2015 9:58:47 AM

Unconditional Love would require the two parties supposedly in Love to stick together not only during the good times but also the bad times.


No I dont consider being abused by someone 'bad times'. Bad times are when your countries at war and you have nothing, when there is an earth quake and everything you own you have just lost. Or if your successful husband losses everything and goes bust. If he lost everything and your grand lifestyle become poor, you still love him and you live that poor lifestyle with him and are happy to do so because you love him. But, losing everything isnt a good enough excuse for him to abuse you. Being abused by someone is behaviour that should never be accepted. However, you may understand the person behind the abuse, you may still love that person but you know that you can not be together so you leave. When you have left you may still love him showing unconditional love, you just can not be with him. If he abused my children though it would kill the love stone dead and Id feel nothing but hate.

If your child decided to emigrate and move to the other side of the world if you love them unconditionally you let them go. Just because you dont see them or live with or near them does not mean you stop loving them. Thats the unconditional love.
 Viper1j
Joined: 2/6/2015
Msg: 153
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History
Unconditional love??
Posted: 2/21/2015 2:32:03 PM
It's something that's only available from a puppy.
 Aradia96
Joined: 10/25/2014
Msg: 154
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/3/2015 9:44:53 AM
Reminds me of Peeta in the Hunger Games :3
 petula1908
Joined: 8/9/2014
Msg: 155
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/3/2015 9:56:21 PM
unconditional love means not expecting anything in return, loving someone for who they are, not necessarily liking them all the time or their behaviour. It does not mean letting people disrespect or abuse you. You dislike or do not tolerate their bad behaviour but still love the person.
 Demidar
Joined: 10/22/2014
Msg: 156
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/4/2015 1:14:08 PM
Between people , very often something is expected in return for love , other than love . It is to bad many are that way .
 CTRLvector
Joined: 9/21/2014
Msg: 157
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/4/2015 3:06:39 PM
Unconditional love costs…….. because I seriously gave myself a headache, and at times doubted I'd free myself from the madness....

-------The post that you never knew you wanted to see-------

Keep in mind - this might take a read or more to understand.

You have absolute terms – Abide by conditions, they give you solid figures, to help you communicate. (you cannot manipulate the conditions of the absolute term)

You have relative terms – Abide by the conditions of the term, but are subject to individual interpretation based on connections made. (you cannot factor relative term, it is for all intent and purpose - absolutely unique)

Or to put it simply, you cannot count the total number of apples with the total number of oranges, and come up with a single figure.

-------------

"There's no such thing as love without the anticipation of loss, and that specter of despair, can be the engine of intimacy" - Andrew Solomon

This is an example of how you define a relative term. Not with the data of absolute, but the parallel of relative context.

You see by publishing this observation, he gives everyone the ability to gauge loves intensity through the thought of losing a loved one.

-------------

So if you desire greater definition of love…

You create relative parallels to be drawn from relative observation. Thereby creating a condition of natural expansion through subjective and relative correlation of context/understanding.
...hm...
Unconditional love is - in essence – an absolute maximum intensity love. As per strict rudimentary definition.
…hmm…
And love being a relative term - makes it difficult, dare I say impossible. To modify without creating a subjective bias on the absolute definition.

…Relative term is subjective to the beholder…

…Absolute term is subject to natural process of evolution, as is any live language in use…

I want a greater definition of love, using Andrews parallel – I want to define love subject to condition, yet create a valid basis for love at maximum experience.

Essentially I want to define “unconditional love” – without analyzing the structure of the word – but by the general meaning of what this type of love represents.

I am CTRLvector, I am a pseudonym for Justin ******. I have absolutely experienced love, and can say that in clear and definite terms. I have loved and lost, I know Andrew’s parallel, unforgiving as it may be.

I did not experience the loss of my mother, the emotion pains me.

I did not experience the loss of my father, the emotion indifference.

I did not experience the loss of a great man, my grandfather who passed away prior to my birth. Recipient of the Navy Cross, pilot and officer of a torpedo bomber in WW2. I didn’t know him, our paths never crossed. And he’s the family I miss the most.

I have experienced the loss of a brother I grew up with, who was remarkably better than I. I envied him for his appearance and stature, and he was the horse to bet on. But I lost him to drugs, he’s given up on himself and his death will bring mercy to the life he lives.

I have experienced the loss of the women I believed would stand by me, till the day she left me I’d have given anything to protect her. I just couldn’t protect her from myself, I was so lost tried to believe my own lies of feeling ok. I couldn’t help myself in time, and so she left.

I want a better definition of love,
I use sage observation,
I note the parallel,
I use my relative experiences,
I keep conditions in tact,
And I mind the context.
 CTRLvector
Joined: 9/21/2014
Msg: 158
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/4/2015 11:43:20 PM
funchesf?

You can't hide from me...

What is your take on this syntactic compound? I mean contextually... I've covered the retainer fee of your services as canon lawyer. Advocacy for the hooved brute is necessary as we've canonization arguments to submit to the promoter of justice.

Business is time, to asset, and - not to be squandered.

I don't know if you remember or not, but we were both drunk and decided to analyze the nature of lexical semantics in direct relation to cognitive semantics in some way, shape or, form. And seman got all over the place? You got anything you'd like to critique/contribute to my analysis here?
 Vicki159
Joined: 6/3/2014
Msg: 159
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/5/2015 12:40:36 AM
Sometimes when you recognise your own ability and let someone go, you are both protecting yourself and the other person. Sometimes doing the right thing even though everyone hurts is the best thing IMO. It doesnt mean it wasnt real, it just means that life got in the way and you have to find a new way. To let someone go frees them to be with someone that will make them happy. To sacrifice what you need for the other person generally ends up with you both smashing each other to pieces. Which isnt love at all, it a mess and kills any love as well as damaging both people involved IMO.
 CTRLvector
Joined: 9/21/2014
Msg: 160
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/5/2015 6:21:23 AM
I didn't let her go, (at least not initially) she ignored me so it would be something she could accomplish – without having to deal with the circumstances I ran the gamut when it came to begging for one more chance. I didn’t really know how bad it was till I unknowingly started to barter cash for 1 more chance to never screw up again….

But I begged her to give me a chance, just one more, one hour, one lie. one anything... nothing, and by ignoring me she was able to let go. I felt every second of the silent treatment, and ever second of knowing I had lost her forever afer.

But she would end up letting me go. As I was the dark side,

She referenced the notion - that if it wasn't for me she'd have no interest in humoring the potential. But it was true that she generally disliked men, at least with regard to affection. Her father is follower of strict middle-eastern ideology.
I believe my most accurate assessment is this:

I would transition out of the Army and, it was a trying time for her and I both….
We just had trouble understanding each other, and reading the severity of indifference toward making things right, we started out with my being approximately 90 days off in my estimation. It wasn’t my fault though, as the factor that would screw my calculation, was of the unknown variety.

For those 90 days Mariam was stuck in the Army and on post...

Chiefly her biggest issue was that I had developed the mind-set - 'i'll do everything myself. That’s why I majored in depression, because if I am failed with treatment protocol – I do it myself. This would mean that not only would I not take good advice, I wouldn’t listen to Mariam, nothing more to say... flaws on my behalf.

I also had a lot of physical pain, because I had relied on pain meds for a long time. And that gave me an easier quality of life. My depression was removing me far from life -me, slowing my thought processing down,
I failed to rise to the challenge, and successfully combat my depression. I passed my classes, but I had trouble getting everything within reason done and accounted for.

Mariam made one mistake – had she given me time I would have gotten through it.... If I knew I were capable of that (prior) I would have defended myself. But yeah Vicki I did curb the pain. I let her go off and not talk to me, I didn't trouble the situation. I thought she would come back, she didn't...

Either way, I got a free cat out of the deal. No, thats right I paid for him,
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 161
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/5/2015 7:28:05 AM

Unconditional love = the way you love your parents, your kids, etc.
Conditional love = "you have to be over 6 foot"
It's pretty simple of a concept.

LOL -- Yep, that pretty much sums it up. There's certainly no unconditional love in the land of dating. I think "unconditional love", applied to Relationships is basically like the concept of "Looks don't matter to me" applied to Dating. Looks are going to matter, love will be conditional -- it's just not as Much as the common person, that's all.

I think unconditional love is just a street/slang term to mean you'll put up with a lot of sh!t and be in love with the person even though logistically you shouldn't at all. I think stalkers suffer from this syndrome. :)
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 162
view profile
History
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/5/2015 7:47:40 AM

Unconditional Love for a Child is just an assumption that society choose to believe that parents have for their children, parents might find it rather embarrassing to admit to others that they don't like their child .


While I applaud all parents who say that they unconditionally love their children, as it SHOULD be, I worked many years with kids who weren't so lucky as to have parents that are capable of that, or willing to give it to their kids, or who could even DEFINE what it is, in most cases.
I also have experienced it first-hand and can say that some parents, if they were animals, would have eaten their own young!!!!lol


I think "unconditional love", applied to Relationships is basically like the concept of "Looks don't matter to me" applied to Dating. Looks are going to matter, love will be conditional -- it's just not as Much as the common person, that's all.


I disagree....Love NEVER requires people to "put up with sh!t" as a qualifier for it's presence....unconditional or otherwise....In fact, as many parents have said on this thread alone, tolerating intolerable behaviour from someone ISN'T 'loving' in any way , shape, or form....It's called 'enabling'....

While I'm familiar with the whole concept as described by those with religious affiliation of Jesus, "turning the other cheek" and 'dying for our sins' that, to me, is NOT love....It's martyrdom....Also, as far as "looks don't matter" while dating...Once again, beauty/attractiveness/attraction is PURELY subjective....For some people, believe it or not, how a person LOOKS is really NOT the primary reason for attraction.

While I'm aware that this subject has been 'done to Death', I'm going to keep banging on this drum as I am SO tired of reading this type of stuff...
Two little words missing there...'for me'....

REALLY great book by Scott Peck, for anyone who's interested.....Called The Road Less Traveled....wherein he gives a thorough and in-depth explanation for the definitions of 'love'...give it a look-see....
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 163
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/5/2015 8:11:15 AM

Vicki159
No I dont consider being abused by someone 'bad times'.

What????? ......I wouldn't be surprise if you start receiving an influx of marriage proposal in POF e-mails


Vicki159
Bad times are when your countries at war and you have nothing, when there is an earth quake and everything you own you have just lost.

the examples you gave are of disasters, disasters are circumstances generally beyond the control and scope of the two individuals supposedly in love, disasters are a test of ones resolve not of Unconditional Love, during disasters even enemies can band together in order to survive


Vicki159
Being abused by someone is behaviour that should never be accepted.

I'm pretty sure the S&M crowd would disagree with that statement, and then there are those that remain in abusive relationships under the claim of "love", and this is why dumping a significant order due to their behavior is not a sign of Unconditional Love..it's a sign of intolerance


CTRLvector
funchesf?

You can't hide from me...

What is your take on this syntactic compound? I mean contextually...

Unconditional Love is supposedly love one has for another that they lack for theirself



CTRLvector
I've covered the retainer fee of your services as canon lawyer.

I've meant to tell you that your check bounced ...


You got anything you'd like to critique/contribute to my analysis here?

you said it all in your post Mgs 168, that once one of the the persons (her) opt out of a relationship while the other (you) opt to pursue the relationship..it' displays how Unconditional Love in your scenario was actually Obsession and could have been equated as being a result of having an addiction or mental disorder
 Vicki159
Joined: 6/3/2014
Msg: 164
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/5/2015 8:37:50 AM
Vector I have no theories and Im not able to keep you safe you need to do that. All I can do is share my story and my views and opinions based on where I come from. Though I relate a lot of what you say to similaries in my own life.

I didnt mean you let her go Im saying she let you go. When I had my incident when I was in my teens which I wont go into too much detail just approximates. We were young, in love, both working, planning to get married, both wanted children. He was setting up on hes own and I had a good job. We had it all. As often happens when your young he experimented a bit with drugs (I didnt know he only did it when he was out with hes friends). Hes behaviour got worse until one weekend he got violent (im not suggesting you have ever done that). In that weekend I knew he could kill me, I knew he was out of control and I knew I could do nothing to help him. All hes friends knew the same as well. They all tried everything to get him the help he needed but Im sure you are aware of what help there actually is out there. Now Im sure people will not believe this but, I loved him Vector and I know he loved me. I saw the look in his eye, I saw and felt the love, I saw the horror on hes face at what he had done and I saw the look in hes eye that he knew he was out of control. But there was nothing I could do so I broke free. That doesnt mean I didnt love him I did, I still do I always will. I still have hes pictures and my heart still skips a beat when I look at them. It broke my heart to leave him, I felt terribly guilty for leaving him and I often wondered if I should of done more to help. But the thing is Vector, it was a circumstance beyond my control, I could not of survived. It damaged me a lot. Had I stayed, the more he damaged me, the more he would of been damaged. Not sure if that makes sense. The bottom line is, I loved him, he loved me that has never ever changed. But the right thing to do was to get away from him. But I never ever let it show that I still loved him because I needed it over. As far as I know he went to prison and I assume he sorted himself out or not. Please do not relate that bit to your life you have far more opportunities that you can do with your life than he had. You have so much that you can give Vector to lots of people.

With my ex, we had a lot to deal with. But hand on heart Vector, everything I felt for bf1 I felt for my ex and more. What Im trying to say is, yes you would hope she would stand by you, but maybe she knew her limits and knew she had to let it go. That doesnt mean she didnt love you, that doesnt mean she doesnt now, nor does it mean that it is wrong that you are not together, nor does it mean that what you find (once your better) wont be as good, probably far better. My life with my ex was clearly far better than the one I would of had with bf1. If I had of stayed Id of either been killed, or living a very horrible life. If he had of stayed with me, Id of supported him, he would of continued and it would of been a miserable existence. I dont know what happened to him, but thats not something I can control because he needs to take control of it. You can chose how you life will continue, that bit at least is in your control.

I am in no way taking anything away from your childhood Vector, it was harsh. But, you can clearly love and from what I can see there are so many that would love you back. Some that come from your background cant love. Be grateful for that.


I think unconditional love is just a street/slang term to mean you'll put up with a lot of sh!t and be in love with the person even though logistically you shouldn't at all. I think stalkers suffer from this syndrome. :)


I think its the other way around, if you stay you are placing a condition on it ie:- my role is care giver, my role is protector, my role victim. What it should be is, I love you enough to do what is right by you and for you.


What????? ......I wouldn't be surprise if you start receiving an influx of marriage proposal in POF e-mails


With the self protect walls Ive got up, it will be a miracle if anyone gets in. By the time Ive tested the boundaries they usually think Im either hard as nails or a little odd.


beyond the control and scope of the two individuals


Theres something in this. No idea what but I know its in this bit.


Unconditional Love is supposedly love one has for another that they lack for theirself


Disagree, love starts with recognising and being able to love yourself. To get your own needs met whilst considering someone elses.


displays how Unconditional Love in your scenario was actually Obsession and could have been equated as being a result of having an addiction or mental disorder


I think I agree with this, not 100% sure as not 100% sure I understand it.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 165
Unconditional love??
Posted: 3/5/2015 11:08:52 AM

I disagree....Love NEVER requires people to "put up with sh!t" as a qualifier for it's presence....unconditional or otherwise....In fact, as many parents have said on this thread alone, tolerating intolerable behaviour from someone ISN'T 'loving' in any way , shape, or form....It's called 'enabling'....

Allow me to clarify: I was talking about non-platonic love. Not love of pets, kids, magical creatures, gods, parents, etc. I guess one could have a mental disability/disfunction and have unconditional love (non-platonic/romantic). I think we see signs of those in stalkers - lol. Where "No" still means "Maybe" in the very least...
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