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 AUTHOR
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 306
anti- spanking lawsPage 14 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
^^^Well, this certainly reiterates how complex spanking really is. When 2 spanking moms disagree on what is appropriate, that speaks volumes eh!
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 313
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/6/2006 11:10:59 AM

#1: Do you believe it is better to remove a child from its parents simply because they tap the child's hand to prevent the child from touching a hot stove top?


Of course not. Every law has grey areas. It's intent is to take away a tool that could easily be misused as mentioned above. You know what though - if a child touches a hot stove, unless they are a leper they wont keep their hand there long and I bet they never do it again.

Is this not a cyclical argument? “We do not hit, because it causes pain, and children will not learn from pain. Instead, we allow them to burn themselves, so the pain will teach them not to do it again.” Am I the only person who sees irony in that?

Aside from the subtle irony, though, I know of no parent who will willingly stand back when their child is in any form of danger, be it a burnt hand or stepping in front of a moving car. And if a slap prevents them from something more serious, then that is the logical thing to do, no matter what sensibilities it might offend. Besides, with the state of Hospital care these days, I would much rather take my chances with the courts.

More significantly, however, is the idea that we should change the rules to restrict everyone because a few people are unable to be reasonable parents. If this worked, I think it would be a novelty at least, and perhaps even a miracle. But assuming the logic is sound (and I do not believe that it is), should we not ban alcohol first? Lots of children are subjected to the ravages of abusive alcoholic parents are they not? Alcohol impedes rationality to the point that these people would hardly care if there was a law against spanking, and will (when drunk at least) spank their children regardless. So if banning something was likely to have any effect, the first thing we should do is eliminate alcohol from society.

And of course, this same logic extends to almost every walk of life. Get rid of all forms of gambling (Casinos and Lottery tickets), eliminate cars, abolish sports, … actually, let’s just ban money completely, because all problems can probably be traced back to a lack of money, so if no money existed, there would be no chance of anyone even driving a car or getting drunk or in fact doing anything else that could be harmful to a child.

Yes, yes, I know … the sarcasm meter is getting close to the red line, but I am only half joking here. Still, I will leave further comment on this to question #3.




#2: Do you actually want to give up your right to intervene when your children are hurting themselves or others?


Of course not, but spankings are a cop-out. Too tired to rationalize with your kids? Then we get into the argument, "should spankings hurt?" Well if they don’t they are pointless and without consequence, whereas if they do, it's abuse. Read and take parenting classes if need be. You want to be the best parent possible for your child don’t you? so I'm assuming you would want to make the effort to achieve this goal no matter how time consuming, or you can just spank and think it will make it all better.

There are situations where all other forms of parental authority simply do not work. It is never the first tool out of my parenting tool box, but it is not necessarily the last either. Every situation requires thought and sometimes the Wisdom of Solomon would be handy. But since we are not all blessed with that divine inspiration, we must make due with the best we have or can understand. For most of us, that means following our conscience, and the law cannot make you grow one of those.

Elsewhere I gave an anecdote for a “painless spanking”. It worked great, and my ex even chuckled about it yesterday when I asked if she remembered it. But it depends upon the child, the parent and the situation, a dynamic that is extremely complex, as is evidenced by the great variety of comment in this thread alone, not to mention all the writing on the subject.

Furthermore, I do not see how “pain”, in and of itself at least, constitutes “abuse”. If that is so, then all forms of discipline are “abuse” as the time-out examples point out. It is an ever shrinking spiral, where today the argument is against spanking, while tomorrow it will be against time-outs, then denial of privileges, etc. etc. until eventually parents will have absolutely no rights regarding the parenting of their children. This is NOT a good thing!




#3: Do you really think the State/Government can do a better job of raising your child than you can?


Having worked with many, many dysfunctional families, the answer in some cases is a very resounding YES. [… continued below]

By using the word “you” in the question, I seriously meant “YOU” … the person reading this. You whose eyes are currently looking at the screen and reading these words: Do YOU thing the State can do a better job of raising YOUR kids than YOU can? If so, stop reading and call child services and tell them so. I am sure they will come pick up YOUR kids as soon as they are able.

Of course we all know of families in crisis where the Government steps in. That is why we even have a Social Safety Net. But again, changing this law does nothing to help or improve the lives of children (or parents) in those families. They are already in need of help, and the help available is abysmal. Making spanking a crime is just going to make their bad situations even worse. And, it is going to push some borderline families over the brink, adding greater strain upon an already over-taxed system.

We already have laws that are supposed to protect children in situations were there is violence in the home, and yet these laws are not being well enforced. Making spanking illegal means that enforcement where it is already needed will be even harder! If we cannot separate abused children from their abusers now, how will an anti-spanking law help? Especially one that makes every form of “unwanted touching” assault?


RFlagg, you worry about acquiescing control to the state, but we are probably already there. … Regardless, most paranoia regarding paternalistic laws is unfounded. Seat belt laws fall in this category and most of us accept them as beneficial to health care and our society in general. Anti-spanking laws are of a similar notion. As mentioned earlier, for the vast majority of our families this is a non-issue. [… continued below]

First, go back to message #201 (http://forums.plentyoffish.com/461753datingPostpage9.aspx) and read the small poem/prose at the top of that post. This is exactly what I was talking about there. The idea, that somehow, since we have already given up some freedoms already, this justifies us giving up even more. I respectfully disagree!

That is like being in a Hockey game and at the end of the first period, our side is down four points. Should we just go to the ref and say, “it’s okay, we are so badly beaten down by the opposing team, that we wish to forfeit”? Is that how you play Hockey? (Or whatever sport you care to choose.) Yes, we have lost a lot of rights and freedoms. And each loss is a goal against. But that does not mean we should just roll-over and play dead and let the other team (Government in this case) take away the rights we still have!

Furthermore, with some of those losses have come palatable gains. As suggested, the information age has practically eliminated any form of privacy, yet with that loss has come a gain of improved resistance to terrorism. While I do not see the gain to be as big as the loss, I do see the potential value in the sacrifice of some privacy. The same with seal-belt and helmet laws. The loss of freedom is greater than the potential return, put there is still evidence of a return. Making spanking equivalent to assault offers no such compensatory benefit. The vast majority of parents are penalized to account for the minute few who abuse the privilege of being a parent.

And, if that is not enough, the penalty for not wearing a seat-belt is a few dollars. For losing privacy, the cost might be a bit of embarrassment. But for a spanking, a traditional form of parenting that has worked for millennia, the cost is incarceration, a criminal record, and the loss of ones family. There is a big difference!


" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729–1797)




I would prefer the Government outlaw a punitive tool which invariably gets abused by a small percentage of our population who create dysfunctional young people because of inappropriate spankings, which in turn become our problem because of the need for social or correctional services that child will subsequently need…

Yes, a small percentage abuse it. They also abuse time-outs. Do we outlaw those next? I am sure a small percentage abuse alcohol, and I know a small percentage abuse gambling.

While I applaud the desire to improve the situation for children in general, I do not see how making spanking an assault will do that. If spanking is a problem in these families, then judges can rule that these parents not be allowed to use it. Just like TRO’s restrict some persons from contacting or going near other people. Just like parole conditions dictate limitations on the activities of a parolee, restricting things like where, when, what and even who.


If the creation of a law automatically caused compliance, I could better understand the argument, even though I would still not be in favor of it. But we all know that the existence of a law is hardly even a deterrent in most of the families where spanking is abused. Law or no law these children will continue to be inappropriately disciplined (via spanking or otherwise), because there is so little out there to help these families to learn appropriate times/correct methods and/or alternatives.

Instead of spending resources on this debate (in the form of ever expanding studies on both sides of the issue), those resources would be much better served helping families who need it, rather than trying to make 50%+ of the nation feel guilty.


Good Luck!
 justjazz
Joined: 9/8/2005
Msg: 315
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/6/2006 11:30:07 AM
Should there be a "law" against spanking children. NO....should you spank your children...NO
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 316
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/6/2006 11:34:32 AM

good sense is not common

Ain't that the truth.



i fear we can only slow the machine

Yes, but that is all I need to do ... once my kids are adults, the debate will be moot for me (j/k *smile*).


And still, I would rather be down only 4 points (or 40) than 5 (or 50) at the end of the game. (Reminds me of the 13-0 whomping that Edmonton gave Vancouver one year. *smile*)
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 318
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/6/2006 7:23:35 PM

Should there be a "law" against spanking children. NO....should you spank your children...NO

Very good point jj, just let me expound upon it and make it an excellent point.

Should there be a "law" against spanking children. NO....Should you use spanking as your first or even second parenting discipline tool....NO.

 MocksvilleChic
Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 319
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/7/2006 3:01:06 AM
You should explain to your child why you are spanking and then give them a spanking........you should be allowed to spank....and I mean a spanking not just a little pop
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 323
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/7/2006 6:52:19 PM
all anyone has to do is read some of the posts to know why such a law might be needed,....

but to justify using it on any child with autism is what to me is criminal,.....
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 328
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:48:28 AM
at which point does it become less usefull??????
when a kid is old enough to hit back???

They used to spank the bare butt of students in school,....
while a kid is draped over a desk in front of all the other kids,.....

if it's so usefull and effective and I dare say anyone who's ever been asked to pull his or her pants down and bend over,...didn't do whatever the infraction is again,....

why then is it not being used today ?????,...

moreover,....what was the action that made this form of punishment stop ??????????
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 330
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:05:30 AM
My understanding that hitting someone for hitting someone else as being idiotic and fixes nothing is the only reason I do not kick the crap out of people like you.

It seems many people are 'idiots' from a number of your different posts I've seen. Something to ponder kat, maybe people will 'hear' you if you stop referring to others comments and actions as idiotic. We all don't have to agree, however when disagreeing, or making a different point of view it's always nice to try and be respectful. This is a hot topic and understandably tempers can flare......trust me, I've bit my tongue on more than a few occasions.


They used to spank the bare butt of students in school,....
while a kid is draped over a desk in front of all the other kids,.....

if it's so usefull and effective and I dare say anyone who's ever been asked to pull his or her pants down and bend over,...didn't do whatever the infraction is again,....

why then is it not being used today ?????,...

Marita, you may be interested to know that there are school districts who are bringing back corporal punishment, in the States anyhow. I saw some links when I was doing a search into spanking. I'll try and find them after I get up and post them.......I work nights, so I'm heading to my bed.
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 331
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/8/2006 9:57:51 AM
As a kid I earned a couple "ruler wraps" against my hand from the school principal. Considering all the stuff I got away with, I must have done something really vile to get them. I think I was in grade 4 when they banned Corporal Punishment in our school district. After that, no more whacks ... just a call to my parents. Believe me, I would have preferred the ruler!

Just a note though: In my school at least, the discipline was always done in the principal's office, with no one else around. We discussed the infraction, I received the "strikes" and then went back to class. I know the pain never lasted more than a few minutes tops.

It was a bit embarrassing (ironic word usage intended), but nothing like what I would expect from having your ass exposed in front of all your classmates as your teacher pulled down your pants and swatted you in front of everyone. Okay, sure, emotional scarring for life for one, but think of the absolute deterrent and a life free of discipline for everyone else *smile*.


"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" -- Mr. Spock


Good Luck!
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 333
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/8/2006 11:57:55 AM
well good night,...and have a good sleep,...that's not always possible when your working nights,...as I recall,...

and regarding your info,....but not dorected at you,...

It figures,...I am actually not that surprised,...seems everything old is being brought back and that's not always a good thing,....

Like mining for coal advertised as the "new clean fuel of the 21st century",....
clean,...yea,..reeeaaalllyyyy!!!,...(off topic I know,...just used it as a for instance)

not everything they did way back when is a good idea,...
we have learned a lot of reasons why they aren't,....

Here's a plan,...lets only resurect the things about the past that were a good idea or actually worked,.....and the rest of the stuff,.....let's keep it in the past,....where it belongs

slavery,....bad,.....
having 2 parents for every child,....(IMO),....good,...
modern music,....good,...(even wrap),...and most of it is ours re-mixed anyway,....
fast food,.....bad,..(for you),...but also good
hugging your kid every day,...even when they've been bad,....good,....

AND SPANKING,...IMO,...STILL BAD
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 334
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/8/2006 12:27:18 PM
WELL THEN YOU MIGHT LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SOME OF THE VARIANCES ARE REGARDING THE STRAP,....RFLAGG,...

I had a particularly sadistic prick as a principal,...and it was their discrecion back then where,...what for,...and how much to strap a kid,....

In one school I went to the principal would strap you your age,...on each hand but,...

and this is where his sadism really shined,...he would first,...pull a couple of hairs out of your head and line them up on the lines in your hand,....why you ask?


Because that way the strap would cut you where the hairs were,...neet eh?
I wonder which teachers ed class they taught that little jem,....

and that's the basic problem,...even here in this forum,....
many of the pro spanking replies come with anicdotal memories of the one or two times in their youth,...

unfortunately to those parents,..(who in my opinion shouldn't even be counted in this debate as spankers ) not that your opinion isn't counted,...but a swatt,..once,...Honestly,...this to me is not spanking,...that would be more of a spank,....the ing to me implies multible blows,...

and the people we hand our children over to,...never,..please NEVER give them this power back,..because the potential of abuse far outweighs any good that could come from this,...ever,...

It's the ones who hit first,...ask questions later and then hit again for good measure,...and the ones who ones they begin,...they can't stop themselves until the kid is no longer moving,....they need to be stopped,...as should the parents who instead of wielding a big stick,....strike as shureley as them but use their silver toungue and denegrade their kid untill they are emotionally black and blue,....and these parents need to be stopped even if it takes another law to do it,....

iF YOU WANT TO DO YOUR KID A FAVOR AND RAISE THEM TO BE GOOD RESPECTFULL ADULTS,...INVEST YOUR TIME AND MONEY IN THEIR CARE AND WELL BEING,...
not on a Nanny Cam that leaves you having to deal with the aftermath,....of a bad situation,...



 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 336
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/10/2006 4:17:08 AM
there is one other thing to add,...which may seem off topic but I believe is directly related,...

Shaking,...many parents in thinking that they were being less forcefull and not hitting,...went to shaking the child,....which we now know can do as much harm if not even more,...
in the same way that whiplash causes untold injury in automobile accidents,...

In the case of automobiles the severe back and forth motion only happens once,....
When a parent shakes the child it's often numerous times back and forth and back and forth,...

causing injuries like neck trauma/fractures,...permanent brain injury,...paralisis and even death,....not in every case of course,...but why risk it????

and regardless of what legislation is passed,...the problem comes in the implementation,...

as it stands now,...child services departments are so overworked and understaffed,...I seriously doubt that even if new legislation were passed today that anything much would change,...with the possible exception of these service departments being allocated more money for more staff,...and I honestly think that's not a bad thing,...

Realistically speaking I doubt that these departments would all of a sudden be walking the malls scoping out parents who swat their kids on the behind for having a temper tantrum in the grocery store,.....there are now and saddly will continue to be plenty of cases of serious abuse to keep them busy investigating untill the end of time,....

Neither are there enough foster homes to place children in who might be taken away,...
for the children who suffer real abuse,....so these will continue to be filled with the worst cases,...

I myself was beaten rarely but when I was,...my father had no off switch,...and he would escallate untill my sister and I would stop moving,....To us this meant a daily life of when is it going to come,....this anxiety was so overwhelming that at times I instigated the onset of abuse,....just to get it over with,....my sister on the other hand escaped inside herself,...so even if the beatings aren't every day,...or even frequently,...The damage can not be overestimated,.....

I also have some first hand experience in the forray of the foster care system,...and I'm here to tell you not all foster homes are the thing of nightmares,...many foster homes are a wonderfull relief,...as was the case with me,...for me,...for the first time I felt I could breathe,...in trying to recollect my childhood,...I was surprised myself when my time in the foster home was the only good memory that I have,....
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 337
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/10/2006 7:16:51 PM

regardless of what legislation is passed,...the problem comes in the implementation,...as it stands now,...child services departments are so overworked and understaffed,...I seriously doubt that even if new legislation were passed today that anything much would change,...

So why create a law that has no positive effect?

with the possible exception of these service departments being allocated more money for more staff,...and I honestly think that's not a bad thing,...

It would be a great thing, but a new law would not mean more money. Instead of seeking for a change to the laws, seek for more money for the existing programs.

Realistically speaking I doubt that these departments would all of a sudden be walking the malls scooping out parents who swat their kids on the behind for having a temper tantrum in the grocery store

Yes they would, because people would see that and report it, and the Child Services people are required by other laws to investigate all reports of child abuse, and now their already limited resources would be wasted and stretched even thinner having to deal with all these trivial cases.

there are now and sadly will continue to be plenty of cases of serious abuse to keep them busy investigating until the end of time

So why add to the problem?

Neither are there enough foster homes to place children in who might be taken away,...for the children who suffer real abuse,....so these will continue to be filled with the worst cases,...

No ... once a law is in to vilify spanking parents, the foster homes will be saturated with mostly kids from normal homes. The worst cases will not be found, lost behind a sea of trivial cases that do not need to be there.


marita, you were obviously tortured as a child. I am genuinely sympathetic to your plight as a kid. But don't turn me or my parents (or everyone else who has ever spanked) into the same kind of monster who raised you simply because we use/used spanking as a form of discipline. You are talking about two different things. My children do not walk on eggshells around me. They are not terrified about when the next beating might come. Nor did I grow up that way, and both of my parents were willing to use spankings when they felt they were required.

A “spanking” is not a “beating”. No one seriously considers beating a child to be acceptable under any circumstances. Your father obviously had problems (depression? anger management issues?) and should not have been allowed to do to you what he did. Obviously, you were removed from that environment at some point and put into a good foster home. Therefore someone must have seen what was happening was not discipline … it was abuse. And, luckily, three quarters of foster homes are decent. But you might have felt differently if you ended up in one of the other 25%. One chance in four of being further abused is pretty horrible odds. It might be acceptable if one is in an abusive situation now. Going from a 100% chance of abuse to a 25% chance is a marked improvement. But if faced with a choice between the odd swat on the backside when you do something wrong, and a one in four chance of really serious abuse (rape, torture), I do not see foster care as the better option.


And just on the subject of money. Supreme Court challenges cost the taxpayers millions of dollars. I know a few million is just a drop in the bucket in the long run, but still, if that money had gone to child care programs already in existence, it would have helped a lot more actual children than changing the law ever would.


Good Luck!
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 338
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/10/2006 8:05:53 PM
unfortunately to those parents,..(who in my opinion shouldn't even be counted in this debate as spankers ) ...but a swat,..once,...Honestly,...this to me is not spanking,...that would be more of a spank,....the ing to me implies multiple blows,...

The law would not care. One hit or many hits it is all the same to the law.

and the people we hand our children over to,...never,..please NEVER give them this power back,..because the potential of abuse far outweighs any good that could come from this,...ever,...

By this I think you mean teachers. As is stands right now, teachers have this right, but several school districts have simply elected not to use it, opting instead to contact the parents. As a kid, I preferred the strap. As a parent, I prefer the phone call.

It's the ones who hit first,...ask questions later and then hit again for good measure,...and the ones who once they begin,...they can't stop themselves until the kid is no longer moving,....they need to be stopped,...as should the parents who instead of wielding a big stick,....strike as surely as them but use their silver tongue and denigrate their kid until they are emotionally black and blue,....and these parents need to be stopped even if it takes another law to do it,....

I agree, but what law do you propose? There are already laws against striking a child “until the kid is no longer moving”. And an “anti-spanking” law would not even touch the idea of punishing a parent that verbally “denigrates their kid until they are emotionally black and blue”. But I guess that will be next, right? Once spanking is a crime, then yelling will be outlawed? And after yelling, talking harshly? And after that, doing anything that upsets a child in any way will result in jail time?

You said yourself, marita, that you did not feel the moms who swat their kids when they have a temper tantrum in the grocery store deserve to go to jail and that their kids do not need to be put in foster care. So why make a law that would result in those kinds of things happening? When you get right down to it, the law you want is the law that already exists, only it is not being enforced to the degree that is required.

I am totally in favor of increased enforcement of existing law to help stop child abuse, but making another law does not do that. Training police and childcare workers might help. Increasing the number of resources available to Child Services could improve things. Having TV spots that encourage parents to seek help if they might be abusing their kids. Even Amnesty programs, so parents who are abusing their kids can get help without fear of going to jail. But none of these things require any changes to the law. For the vast majority of parents who do use spanking as an occasional method of discipline, they are functioning well within the existing law and “reasonable” standards. It is the few who are not that need to be found and either helped or stopped. And they are already breaking the law, so a change to the law will make no difference to them.


Good Luck!
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 339
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/12/2006 8:18:59 AM
The problem as I see it is in symantics,...

any law can be read by one person one way and another another way,..
One person's spanking is another person's beating,....

and I agree with pretty much all of what you say,...but the problem is consistency in the law also,...because I'm here to tell you schools here in Canada,...

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAND OUT CORPORALL PUNISHMENT OF ANY KIND,..

I think the best way to change the law is to make it more consistent,...across the board,...so that every time you move from town to town you don't have to take a legal class just to know what the rights are,..and throwing out the ones that are absolutly archaic would be good too,...

In Halifax it's (on the books and current) not allowed to spit on the sidewalk,..
or tie your horse up to the front of a store,..which is particularly funny in some parts of town where (I kidd you not) the hitching posts are still in front of the stores,....but most people have no idea what they in fact are,....

we have to be more clear as to what is or is not abuse towards children,..or anybody for that matter,....because elder abuse wich is sort of the opposite side of the same coin,..is also on the increase,....

and as for my childhood being torture,...it may have been but what I discovered from many of my peers,,..it was not unusual,....nor had it been unusuall for my parents and their parents and so on,....this was the norm,....and it shouldn't be,...was what point I was getting at,...

A childhood isn't supposed to be something you survive,....it's supposed to be something you look back on,...fondly,...and when you do,...that is what you re-create,...and that is IMO how you stop the cycle,....

Someone said in a post of theirs that they where walloped regularly and he went on to justify this by saying that he was raised in a home ith a mom from the bahamas or berbudas or ,..and that,..that alone justified her behaviour,...that culturally some just hit,..all the time,,..it's their way,....well it shouldn't be,....and culture shouldn't be an excuse,...for lack of parenting skills or lack of controll,...

I don't think there is an answer,...there is only the individual quest,..to do better,...in my case by example to my kids so when they teach their kids they will know what to do,..what not to do and why,...

To this day the worst thing I ever did to mine was rip up their homework and make them do it over for not being neat enough,...I only did it once,..(although to hear them tell it I did it every day)and I am still hearing about it all the time...

You never know what your kids will remember and how it will affect them untill that one christmas years after they move out and you remenice,....those are very interesting times,...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 342
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/12/2006 11:36:30 AM
one of my boys (whos work I also tore up,..once) became a published poet at 12,...and there is a reason I only did it once,..

there is no need to preach to the choir or point out the obvious,...little lady ..as I have an in house person ready willing and never refuses the oportunity to remind me of the error in my ways,...and yes I do know this hurt and upset him but not for the reason's you might think,...because he just plainly didn't want to do it again,..he wanted to play nintendo,...

and yes we have beaten this hose to death on more than one occasion and have come to a compromize,...
he will keep bringing it up and I will say I'm sorry,...then we laugh and move on,...

he also never got much neater,..but hey,..life's a trade off,...
and he is a doctors son so,..I figured it was genetic,...


the one thing about parenting that I have learned,..is that it's a continuous learning process to both the child and the parent,..and no parent in the history of the world ever got it all right,...all the time,...we all make mistakes,...the difference is why a mistake is made,..and the ability to appologize and move on,...

but trust me not all of a childs works are treasured works of art or even all that important to them,...my son became a published poet because I submitted his work,..and only informed mhim of the fact after the publisher expressed an interest,...upon telling him he was ticked because he told me,...gee mother,..it was just home work,...

some parents find it is important never to seem weak or god forbid wrong,....we are after all,...everything,..the ultimate source of information,....and we see everything and we do have eyes in the back of our heads which are implanted in the delivery room,...

Even though my kids who ganged up on my sleeping form on the couch to find them didn't,...because I was of course sleeping so they were closed too,...lol,...

seems my story hit closer to your home than to mine,...perhaps you can talk to your mom and tell her how much it means to you?
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 344
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/12/2006 3:46:47 PM
Every act we do with our children may someday become a memory. Whether your choice of discipline involved spanking, time outs, tearing up their homework, screaming in their face, or even ignoring what they did, they will more than likely remember it and learn from it, possibly reprimanding their children in the same way.

We all agree that children need boundaries and guidance and in fact welcome and recognize it as a form of feeling loved and cared for. Discipline is usually necessary in some form or another, but it's not the act of what they did wrong that stays in their mind, as much as the way it was handled by the parent. Keep in mind that unfortunately many people/adults tend to remember the bad things that happened to them, more than the good things.

I know people who regardless of how many wonderful vacations their parents took them on, or gifts they gave them, will remember most vividly the one time their parent did something that hurt them much deeper than their parent realized at the time it was done. That one act not only had a huge impact on their life, but became their main recollection of that parent even after the parent was gone. I find that sad but true...and no, that doesn't mean you should base the way you modify your child's behavior by what they may or may not remember you for, however I'm sure if we asked ourselves if when we're gone, do we want our child to remember us by our behavior and the method of punishment we just chose to reprimand them, many of us would choose an alternate way to discipline.

Learn to communicate well. State your rules and the consequences for breaking them ahead of time, and follow through on them if necessary. Become educated about as many positive proven methods of discipline that are available. Choose methods of punishment that are most beneficial, and will also guide and teach them better parenting skills someday. Remember that even those recollections of our parents disciplining us can become a loving memory if the punishment is understood, and does not have harmful long lasting effects on our self esteem.

Create positive memories of yourself regardless of what light they someday choose to recall you in.
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 345
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/12/2006 7:13:11 PM

I know people who regardless of how many wonderful vacations their parents took them on, or gifts they gave them, will remember most vividly the one time their parent did something that hurt them much deeper than their parent realized at the time it was done.

You hit the proverbial nail on the head with this statement unzipped. I was not spanked, and yet at 44 yrs of age I still get teary eyed when I think of one specific incident that occurred with my father, emotional pain is the worst.

Learn to communicate well. State your rules and the consequences for breaking them ahead of time, and follow through on them if necessary. Become educated about as many positive proven methods of discipline that are available. Choose methods of punishment that are most beneficial, and will also guide and teach them better parenting skills someday. Remember that even those recollections of our parents disciplining us can become a loving memory if the punishment is understood, and does not have harmful long lasting effects on our self esteem.

Once again, you are bang on. I would only change the 'if necessary' to '100% of the time', when talking about follow through on consequences.


 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 346
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/12/2006 10:11:02 PM
@Coffee:

Absolutely!!!.... and by all the past threads I've written here on this topic, I would hope everyone knows that's exactly what I meant. (If anyone thought otherwise, I apologize because I was rushed and worded it funny with "if" necessary refering to "if" they broke the rule! : ) It is absolutely necessary to follow through on whatever consequence we stated would happen for breaking any particular rule, so the child knows we are serious.

Ohhhh how I love getting along!

**Also, emotional pain derived from many different sources, (verbal, mental, physical etc), can sadly stay with us forever. I'm sorry you have that memory and if you ever have a need to talk about it, the doors in my personal box are always open!
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 348
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/14/2006 7:24:00 PM

Its crazy to think that we can condone violence (and its is violence regardless of the degree) with our children and then bemoan the violence in our communities.

If you were to ask my 17 yr old son if I was violent with him because I spanked him the odd time, he would look at you as if you had a 3rd eye in the middle of your forehead, laugh and say....."you're kidding, right?"

Ok, I'm thinking this discussion has basically reached its conclusion as we all seem to be going around and around with the same thoughts, and most seem to be whether spanking is bad or not and the reasons why and why not.
 justjazz
Joined: 9/8/2005
Msg: 350
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/14/2006 10:14:58 PM
good for you netab.......SLO...significant learning opportunity...never pass them up and never EVER mess them up by hitting your child
 Huggablehottie
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 351
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 9/23/2006 9:34:55 AM
I won't say whether or not I am in favor of spanking, because it is your choice.
Anyhow, it is proven that spanking teaches nothing at all.
A child who gets hit a lot, will become fearful and aggressive, thinking that
in life they will always be getting hits.
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!
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