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 AUTHOR
 crystalise
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 62
anti- spanking lawsPage 2 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
""Call it what you want, a beating and a spanking are relative...no matter how you look at it."""


Oh for goodness sake, a spank on the bum is not assault. It is not a beating.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 63
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 1:40:35 PM
perception is everything,....and perception depends on point of view,....
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 65
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 6:02:35 PM
Just a few points:

#1 Dr. Spock was not "childless" ... He had two children of his own and studied and treated children as a pediatrician for more than 50 years.

#2 Is it being suggested that Dr. Spock's contention that "parents are the true experts on their own children" is wrong? If so, who do you (by "you" I mean everyone reading this) believe is a better choice to raise your own kids and how do you come up with that opinion?

#3 Equating a "spanking" with any form of abuse trivializes abuse. It suggests that abuse is simply disciplining a child gone a bit too far and anyone might do it. Abuse, as is obvious in some of the tales here, might have been justified as "discipline" but any reasonable person watching it would have seen the difference.

#4 Spanking should not be something that a parent does in anger, nor with any aggressive emotion for that matter. It should never be given as an angry response to something a child has done. If it is, it is highly unlikely that it will be delivered in an effective or consistent manner.

#5 Daily spankings would be extreme. With my own children, between the two of them, in 32 years of life they have received 12 spankings. I was not one to "wrap their fingers", but I often pulled them away from situations where they might have harmed others or themselves or potentially broken something. I do not include "holding" in the term "spanking" but someone else might.

#6 Spanking is not always about "fear". More appropriately it is about rules, limits and consequences. When groundings and timeouts and lost privileges have no effect, when a child is so unruly and violent that no rational communication has any effect, a physical response is required.

#7 Sometimes that response varies. I have used or seen other people use holding, blowing in the face, slapping hands, slapping legs, and swatting butts. I have seen people use implements as well such as a hairbrush, a wooden spoon or a belt. This level is somewhat repugnant to me, but I do not suggest that a parent will never need to escalate to that level at some point. There are just too many variables to be able to make a call like that.

#8 Not all physical contact is abuse. Bumping and pushing in a subway or large queue or even an elevator is not assault. Neither is being tackled in a football game, or being slammed into the boards during hockey. Police have the right and ability to use physical force in apprehending a criminal, even to the point of killing such criminals (in extreme cases).

#9 Laws exist today to condemn those who would abuse children, and yet, they are rarely enforced, primarily due to the fact that abused children rarely come forward with information about their abuse. An "anti-spanking" law would effectively turn millions of good parents into instant criminals.

#10 What is the alternative? If a parent is emasculated by the law, what is available to the parent when the situation arises that the only response the parent could use is a spanking, but that is now gone? Will there be a number the parent can call? Will we also create a government agency that will come in with significant resources to manage the child? With a type of "police" that is educated in the appropriate use of force and has the right to apply it when necessary?

#11 Someone said that they "abuse a little white ball" rather than take out their anger on their children. Bravo. My ex-wife was like that, too. I had to physically stop her on more than one occasion from striking one of our children with a closed fist. She had been abused as a child and she could not differentiate her anger from her response. It was therefore my job early on to be the one who disciplined the children. I believe I was always fair in doing so, and I know anger was never involved.

#12 Anger has nothing to do with "spankings". Spankings are a form of discipline the same as timeouts etc. are. None of these things should be administered in anger. I once took a privilege away from my daughter for a year. It was an escalated consequence of bad practices. It started with her losing it for a day then a week, then a month, then finally, when she still refused to demonstrate her maturity, a year. Each time I told her: "next time you do something like that, it will be a week/month/year". She knew from the start what the penalty would be. And there was no anger in meeting out the sentence. Do you think Judges are expressing anger when they sentence someone to 200 years in jail?


::Start Rant::
If the world could be completely rid of spankings, I would be overjoyed. But personally, I do not see that happening because the government makes a bunch of ill-conceived reactionary laws. Look at anti-gun laws. In many countries, guns are prohibited, but people are still shot every day. The reason: criminals don't care about the law. All a law can do is punish after the fact. If there were programs available to teach people how to effectively discipline their children WITHOUT spanking, I would be all for it. Make it mandatory education in high school. Require first time parents to attend life-skills training. But who is going to pay for it? Who is going to run it? Who is going to say what works best in all cases? Who is going to be there for the mother of a child that she cannot control? Who is going to see that parents receive counseling to deal with their own childhood issues?

I wonder if proponents of Anti-spanking laws are not reacting to their own emotional issues? In the swatting of a child's backside they see their own excessive abuse as a child and are now overly sensitive to the situation. Perhaps, perhaps not. I received spankings as a child, but I do not feel I was abused. My ex never received "spankings". Instead, she was raped and tortured. Her abusers are now dead, so she can talk about it (sort of). The law was there to protect her as a child, but it did nothing.

Until the laws we ALREADY have are effective against child abuse, I see no point in making new ones, especially ones that only vilify decent, caring parents and offer no reasonable solutions.
::End Rant::
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 67
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 7:22:04 PM
interesting points,..and thank you for correcting me,...regarding Dr Spock,...

but let me just present to you this,...and you be the judges,...

last week on a program called the nanny or supernanny or something,....
the couple who had the nanny in for observations had differeing views on,...discipline,...

the dad was insisting all of his methonds are correct and he believed in spanking his kids,...
At one point one of the kids, was hitting one of the other kids,...and dad went to spank them,...the nanny stopped him and asked him what exactly is this going to teach your children,....that you are stronger????

and how on earth are they supposed to learn that hitting is wrong,...by you hitting them?
are you not sending them a mixed message,...

He thought about it,..and then walked away,....when he came back he asked her what would be better and ,..... when he followed her suggestion,...whilst him mumbling under his breath that she was full of it,... and wrong,...her suggestion to his shock worked,...

so what are you teaching????,...and what are your children learning????,...
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 68
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:04:03 PM
The first point I would make is that a skilled, highly trained professional was present who was able to examine all the factors, and give a non-spanking based solution. Excellent. I wish we all had that luxury.

Second, it does not seem to be a situation that could not have been controlled through another means, such as holding. There is no mention of escallation. No mention of expressing to the child that the behaviour was inappropiate and if it continued consequences would be issued (timeout through to spankings). Of course, these kids could have been told the rules hundreds of times before, so maybe they all knew, and any escallation might have already happened off-camera.

Third, it does not sound like the kid was in an incontrolable state. If police could walk up to a knife wielding man and say "okay, put the knife down and come with us" and that was all they needed to do, there would be no reason for physical force in those situations either.


I agree with you that sometimes people "spank" too soon. For myself, it is a very rare consequence to a series of ineffective alternatives. I never use spankings where removing privileges are enough, and I never ground when a timeout is enough. And even the spankings themselves are sometimes nothing more then a symbolic gesture to make the point. At least two spankings (of 12) involved no "hitting" at all.

I have said before that I am in favour of teaching alternatives to spanking. To educating adults when such forms of discipline are appropriate, and for many parents, they might never be required. But this thread is debating the validity of "anti-spanking laws", and while I think there should be responsibility in any form of discipline (yelling for example may be far more harmful than spanking in some cases), I do not feel the advent of a law will achieve anything constructive.


And no worries on Dr. Spock ... I had heard that he did not have kids, too.
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 69
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:06:03 PM
The first point I would make is that a skilled, highly trained professional was present who was able to examine all the factors, and give a non-spanking based solution. Excellent. I wish we all had that luxury.

Second, it does not seem to be a situation that could not have been controlled through another means, such as holding. There is no mention of escalation. No mention of expressing to the child that the behavior was inappropriate and if it continued consequences would be issued (timeout through to spankings). Of course, these kids could have been told the rules hundreds of times before, so maybe they all knew, and any escalation might have already happened off-camera.

Third, it does not sound like the kid was in an uncontrollable state. If police could walk up to a knife wielding man and say "okay, put the knife down and come with us" and that was all they needed to do, there would be no reason for physical force in those situations either.


I agree with you that sometimes people "spank" too soon. For myself, it is a very rare consequence to a series of ineffective alternatives. I never use spankings where removing privileges are enough, and I never ground when a timeout is enough. And even the spankings themselves are sometimes nothing more then a symbolic gesture to make the point. At least two spankings (of 12) involved no "hitting" at all.

I have said before that I am in favor of teaching alternatives to spanking. To educating adults when such forms of discipline are appropriate, and for many parents, they might never be required. But this thread is debating the validity of "anti-spanking laws", and while I think there should be responsibility in any form of discipline (yelling for example may be far more harmful than spanking in some cases), I do not feel the advent of a law will achieve anything constructive.


And no worries on Dr. Spock ... I had heard that he did not have kids, too.
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 73
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:46:59 PM
"The Nanny" was a sitcom staring Fran Drescher (sp?).

I believe "Nanny 911" is the name of a reality TV show depicting Nannies in real-life situations.

Also ... apologies for the double post ... I must have pushed the wrong button.
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 76
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/27/2005 5:21:57 AM
^^There's xchuck again...

 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 77
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/27/2005 6:36:52 AM
nanny 911 is actually very interesting because people actually let themselves be seen,...

with their house completely out of controll.....kids who hit kick, swear at their parents (3,4,- whatever age) moms who are ignored,..by kids and hubby,...hubby's who are cruel and condascending to mom in front of kids,...you name it,...

the thing that makes it boring is that the nanny allways seems to fix families with the very same method,..week in week out,...

consistency,...
well controlled and consistantly implimented discipline,...
a routine for the running of the household including all members of the family
and mom and dad both being on the same page (never contradicting each other)

it's a very simple formular,...and it works,....

and no one ever needs to hit,..anybody,...ever,...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 79
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:08:57 AM
this particular one?????no kidding,...I had no idea,...


the producers self intrest not withstanding,...still doesn't invalidate her particular methods,...

and JUST FYI,...I used to teach nannies,...I can tell you her method works,....
unfortunately nannies are just people and people come good,.. bad,..and eviel,...
just like some parents do,...
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 81
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/27/2005 7:15:01 AM
sorry that was me making a point,...
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 82
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/27/2005 7:24:53 AM

nanny 911 is actually very interesting because people actually let themselves be seen,...
It never ceases to amaze me.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 83
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/27/2005 7:29:22 AM
no kidding,....and for the most part these are supposed to be highly educated and comfortably off adults,....it's pittifull,....
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 85
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:50:41 AM
maybe that's why so many teen agers get out of controll,..

we always thought it was JUST hormones,...

but,...what if it has a lot to do with what they had to endure all those years they were too small to do anything but endure,...untill they got be be big enough????

it certainly explaines some of the teenagers who DON"T rebell,....I mean they are still going through the hormonal thing too right?

just a thought,....
 Exboxer
Joined: 4/24/2005
Msg: 91
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/27/2005 8:54:39 PM
HotDamn Little Lady,you are one fine Little Lady
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 93
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 3:30:54 AM
I don't think having been abused is an excuse either,...we all need to be held accountable for our actions,....

it just makes it more likely that you MIGHT,....
ultimately you always have the choice not to,....

but I am glad to see at least you got my point about hitting your kid for hitting someone else being pointless,... Country Sugar,...
 justjazz
Joined: 9/8/2005
Msg: 94
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 6:01:21 AM
www.loveandlogic.com

The ideas here really do work. Logical consequences for behavior! Try it
 cuter_than_anyone
Joined: 10/28/2005
Msg: 95
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 7:56:10 AM
hitting children is messed up.

i was spanked and sometimes slapped as a kid. maybe it was just my experience but it made me shameful and like a very bad kid. not a good way to feel, especially if you're 6 or so

kids act up whether you hit them or not.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 97
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 9:05:55 AM
this conclusion isn't one I just grabbed out of thin air,..it's one that has been the conscensus of the meantal health comunity for a very long time,....it is no different that a child coming from an alcoholic family is at higher risk of becoming one and so on,....

no one said anything about it being a given ultimate conclusion that being abused you will,...I have never made that claim,...nor is that the truth,..only that children of abuse are at a higher risk,...***RISK*** of becoming an offender

and sugar may not have but,....I sure did,...

in fact I escaped at 15 and have been self supporting since,....and yes I was afraid that I might do the same to mine because of my unbelievable anger,....and short fuse,....

I came close in as much as when my kids were young I wanted to many times,..but I was able to stop myself and recognize that this was in fact inside of me,....

that's when I would go and hit a bucket of balls,...instead,....
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 99
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 9:44:54 AM
You're basically saying that when spanking didn't work you didn't do it again, you did something else... so... why do it in the first place if you clearly have other alternatives in mind?
 justjazz
Joined: 9/8/2005
Msg: 100
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 10:03:56 AM
There is no need for spanking.

Spanking is counterproductive. It makes the adult into the “bad guy” instead of the bad decision becoming the culprit.

Many techniques are far more powerful than spanking.

Most kids would much rather have a spanking than have parents who use techniques such as delaying the consequence while the parent thinks over the problem, develops a clear head and then locks in the empathy before telling the child what the consequence will be.

Since we now have such better techniques,why even consider, or waste our time with, spanking?

A considerable amount of solid research is now available indicating the harmful, counterproductive results of using spanking as a disciplinary tool.

Try This instead!

Empathy.

“How sad.”
“I bet that hurts.”

Step Two: Send the “Power Message.”

“What do you think you’re going to do?”

Step Three: Offer choices.

“Would you like to hear what other kids have tried?”

At this point, offer a variety of choices that range from bad
to good. It’s usually best to start out with the poor choices.
Each time a choice is offered, go on to step four, forcing
the youngster to state the consequence in his/her own
words. This means that you will be going back and forth
between steps three and four.

Step Four: Have the child state the consequences.

“And how will that work?”

Step Five: Give permission for the child to either solve the problem
or not solve the problem.

“Good luck. I hope it works out.”


Have no fear. If the child is fortunate enough to make a poor choice, he/she may have a double learning lesson.

Solution:
Guiding Children to Solve Their Own Problems
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 101
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 10:06:48 AM
hmmmmmmmm..............
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 104
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 10:48:28 AM

hmmmmmmmm............


No need to be scarcastic for me not posting a response right away to your post. I was not even looking at this web page so how would I know that I had a comment directed at me.
You have misunderstood completely, so you can stop being offended, if you are. My hmmmm.... was in response to the message directly above it. I admit that it was very ambiguous, and really not even worth posting. I just don't think it's as easy as everyone's saying, and situations can not be scripted as easily as suggested.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 106
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 11:39:56 AM
any parent of a child over the age of 10 that hasn't had a reaction no mater how inappropriate of anger at crying,..whining,..sulking,..temper tantrums and down right defiance of their child,...

in my opinion should register an application for sainthood,...

I remember when my husband was out to sea,....and I was all alone with a brand new infant,...WITH CHOLIC,....for 2 weeks I had maybe an hour of sleep spread out over the day per day,..the rest of the day was filled with crying (not all coming from the baby)
and frustration,...feelings of helplessness because I had no one to call,.....and my feeling completely inadiquate,...

I vividly remember my son being in his little basinet in front of me,...and my loosing it enough to yell at him,..

"I don't know what you want,..or how to fix it?" and then thinking how insane that was,...
and at the time I was 28 years old

as if on cue I had a knock on the door by my minister who's visit helped me a lot,....

no I never hurt my children,...wanted to hurt my children or spanked them,....but I can understand the impulse,...and the frustration,...and my youngest is about to turn 21,....but I can still remember,.....so someone raising children not being able to understand that probably is a Saint who has angels for children,...I don't know anybody like that,..but that doesn't mean,...like Santa and the easter bunny they don't exist,....
 justjazz
Joined: 9/8/2005
Msg: 107
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 3:19:36 PM

You have misunderstood completely, so you can stop being offended, if you are. My hmmmm.... was in response to the message directly above it. I admit that it was very ambiguous, and really not even worth posting. I just don't think it's as easy as everyone's saying, and situations can not be scripted as easily as suggested.


Thanks for pointing out my ambiguity. If you would like to help me more I would love to help clear things up. How was my post ambiguous and it saddens me that you feel it was worthless. What can I do to help you feel that it has value?
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