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 AUTHOR
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 108
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anti- spanking lawsPage 3 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
sadly,..probably nothing,...jazz
 crystalise
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 112
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 5:40:50 PM
xchuck if you go back I specifically related it to toddlers etc and said it should stop once ideas and verbal dialogue can be exchanged. you can try psycology and counselling on a 2 year old has not quite grasped the concept or reason and consequences yet - good luck. Its similar to how they may run out into traffic to get a ball, or pull boiling saucepans off a stove. They dont have to thought processes to think ahead or consequences. If you have a screaming, spitting abusive child in the throes of nuclear temper tantrum....who may injure himself and or others, and the parent gives them a smack, they shouldnt be charged for assault and jailed is my argument. I never said anywhere anything about spanking adults. So please keep it in context

Cheers
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 115
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 7:08:59 PM
crystalise wrote:

I specifically related it to toddlers etc and said it should stop once ideas and verbal dialogue can be exchanged.


Not to disagree, per se, but in my case, I never spanked (or hit in any way) either of my children before the age of 5, and neither of them received anything resembling a traditional "spanking" until the age of 7.

At about that age, I could no longer hold my youngest daughter still and prevent her from hurting herself or others when she got into a rage. Up until then I had used holding techniques taught to me by a child psychologist and reviewed with a family crisis counselor. These were last resort methods when all other attempts to assuage her rage had failed. At this point (about age 7 or 8), however, they no longer worked.

The "spanking" used in this situation was a sharp single swat to the butt (if possible) but more likely to the thigh with two fingers. I am sure it was more painful to her pride than it was to her skin. Definitely no marks, no welts, no bruises ... I doubt there was even an imprint of my two fingers under her pants. But it did the trick. Like Little Lady hitting her child's hand away from a hot element, it was a shock, and it caused my daughter to pause her rage just long enough for me to get her attention and deal with her on a more rational scale, or even to just get her to stop fighting enough that she could then be held.

Just so you know, the "holds" are like big hugs, and are intended to prevent injury to her or anyone around her. Even so, she broke my nose once and gave me a concussion another time. On neither of these occasions did I react to her actions with anger. Nor did she get a "spanking" for breaking my nose. To be honest, aside from the obvious pain, I found the ordeal to be rather humorous. "So, how did this happen?" "Well doc, I was holding my daughter and ..." (And before you say it, yes, I know, the injuries were actually my fault because I did not get her into the correct position before she was able to smack me in the nose with her head.)

Once in a hold, she would fight insatiably for about 20 minutes. You could almost set a watch by it. After 20 minutes of screaming, biting, head butts, kicking, scratching and even pulling at my arm hairs, the rage would end. It was like I was holding a balloon and all the air suddenly went out of it. She would stop screaming, relax completely and say to me in the calmest voice, "dad, I think I'm okay now". I would then release the "hold" part and just hug her until she felt like getting up and she would be fine.


CountrySugar wrote:

I can't imagine spanking my children..I have 4 children, 24, 21, 14 and 15 the only one that's ever been spanked and it was my 15 year old and it was once when he was in kindergarden i swatted his bottom for punching his teacher.


And because of this one act, CountrySugar, do you believe the state (crown) has the right to take your child away from you and place him into foster care? And, furthermore, charge you with a crime that will result in you going to jail for potentially many years? This, of course, could mean that your other children end up in foster care as well.

After all, if “spanking” is “abuse” then what is the difference
between:
- preventing a child from burning their hand, or
- punishing them for punching their teacher, or
- teaching a child a consequence for bad behavior
and
- punching them with a closed fist, or
- striking them with a cane or a rod, or
- forcing them to kneel for hours on kernels of rice, or
- torturing them with burning cigarettes pressed against their skin, or
- making them sit naked in a bathtub full of freezing water?

(All of the above have happened to people I know who actually were abused as children. I am sure there are a number of people in this thread who could add to this list.)

If we enact Anti-spanking laws, then all of these activities become the same thing. All are punishable as the same crime. Furthermore, we state categorically that the Government, not the parents, have the right to decide who is best able to care for the child IN ALL CASES, yours included.

I usually do not like to post web links, but this one is rather on topic. Please read to the end where the author discusses baby Joshua. http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0012/oc001212.htm


Good Luck!
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 116
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 9:42:19 PM
I teach a parenting course for the state that involves behavior modification and better communication skills. I've been teaching the course and working with families for more than 8 years. There's a 14 week program for younger children, and a 7 week program geared towards teens. Each week a different aspect is worked on, and I'm happy to report that the methods taught have had nothing but positive results. I can also share with you that you'd be absolutely amazed at what children remember, and talk about as fears and dislikes in their own parents. Out of the mouth of babes............

Many times a parent will swat or spank their child out of their own frustration, or even out of a quick reaction to fear, if they think that child was going to get hurt doing something they shouldn't be doing. Some parents believe it's the best form of correction. Let me say here, it is NEVER all right to swap, smack, slap, spank, or put your hand on your child in an inappropriate way. In fact, it's against the law.

When it comes to hitting your child in any way, to you it may seem like a small swat on the butt, but to that child, you're wayyyyyy bigger then they are, and you will cause a fear in them, of YOU. Is that what you really want? For your child to fear you? Also, that small swat that you think isn't really going to do any damage, would indeed do so should you some day swat that child when they're standing in a way to lose their balance, therefore causing them to fall forward to smash their lip, eye, face on a piece of furniture somewhere, or bang their head. Don't think it doesn't happen, because accidents do! I'm sure especially because that wasn't the intention, you'd feel really horrible. There's also the point that we don't really know our own strength, and if it's okay for mom to smack, or spank...then what about dad?? Now you know he has more strength and will certainly hurt more, but shouldn't he be allowed the same privelege at child rearing as mom? How about the babysitter, or grandma or grandpa when they're in charge? The answer is, no one should be hitting to change the child's behavior and when we use our physical strength, the outcome is never good...(unless it's used in self defense).

Remember too, that children learn from us, and may grow up to believe that the way to change someone's bad behavior, is to hit them. Many problems stem from childhood, in fact most are traced back to then. Don't contribute to their problems in later life because children certainly do learn what they see and grow up responding the way they were responded to as children.

There are however many ways to change your child's behavior. The course teaches many things such as the necessity for rules, praise, consequences, better communication, speaking skills, listening skills, anger management, and self esteem.

Here are some things when it comes to discipline that I've taken from some of the lessons that are important. I'm sharing them with you in hopes that you may find even one thing beneficial to helping with discipline.

Many times child will do things that are not acceptable because they truly have no idea what's expected of them, or what inappropriate behavior really is. Don't forget, they watch other children who aren't reprimanded, and tons of TV where anything seems to go. Everywhere they look, it seems the boundaries are different. Therefore, letting your child know what's expected of them from you..as the adult, is the first step to good behavior. Next, setting up consequences if those rules are disobeyed, or broken, is something you must inform your child of ahead of time so they know what to expect if they chose to disobey you. Consequences should consist of anything the child will not like, other than putting a hand on them in any way. It may be a time out, not watching their favorite show, giving up the video games for the night, going to bed early etc. You as the parent know best what your child would hate to lose the most. What ever consequence you set up, you MUST follow through with if the child breaks the rules so they know you're serious. Always make sure the punishment is something you can bear too! Don't wait until a rule is broken to decide on what a punishment will be, set it up ahead of time with your child, when you tell them your rules. Children need guidance and discipline, and it can be done effectively without being physical with them in any way.

Here's the other key to teaching behavior modification that I'm sure some of you will turn your noses up at, but....it's been proved to work time and time again. It's called the reward system.
No, you don't have to reward your child for doing things they should be doing anyway, however, if you have a child who has a particular problem you need to change, rewarding him for his good behavior will change it much quicker than reprimanding him for his bad behavior. This method is also used in many schools when working with special ed child, incl. children with ADD and ADHD that need special attention and incentives to change their behavior.

Here's an example:
Does anyone know why when we throw a stick our dog goes running after that stick no matter how far it was thrown, or how hot and sticky the day is... and he runs and runs until he's out of breath, but brings it back to us all happy, and wagging his tail??? It certainly isn't because he got reprimanded for not getting the stick!! It was because he was rewarded by you, as soon as he brought the stick back, with a pat on the head, and a "good doggie, good boy." That's what made him happy, that's what he needed, and that's what made him react by doing what he knew would please you.

If you have a child who throws a tantrum every night before bed you must tell them ahead of time that if they throw that tantrum, this will be the consequence. Then if they chose to do it anyway, follow through with the consequence. However, the first chance you get ...(and I suggest looking very hard for that chance, even if it's 5 minutes before the time you know he's going to throw the tantrum)...go up to him and look him in the eyes and say..."Billy, I am soooo proud of you today. You made me very happy by not throwing that baby tantrum anymore. I think tomorrow morning, I'm going to make you your favorite breakfast because I'm so happy with you." (or ice cream treat after dinner, a trip to the dollar store, or what ever the case may be). Hug him as you say it! Some families have even set up incentives for their children with severe behavior problems. If they follow said rule for a week straight, they are rewarded for it. It's just another method to promote positive change. And no, the child does not go on forever believing they should be rewarded for finally doing things right!

Note: Rewards do NOT have to be monetary..they can be verbal praise, hugs, kisses, etc....anything to allow them feel good that they did what you wanted them to do which will entice them to want to do it again.

This method works...Children as young as walking age, learn very quickly what's right and wrong..and with proper communication from the parent, most rules can be set into place, and their behavior will be excellent as long as they know you mean what you say...as far as setting guidelines/rules for them and sticking to the consequences. Rewarding them for their good behavior will push it along even faster.

Remember, we all love praise. You yourself know that you're more inclined to do something the way someone likes it if they compliment you and you know it makes them happy, rather than if they scream and yell at you and put you down for doing it wrong. Think of how that feels to you, and never treat your own child the way you would hate to be treated. Always treat them with the love they deserve, and can easily understand.

I hope this helped in some sort of way.......Give hugs, not slugs!!
 crystalise
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 119
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 10:19:26 PM
xchuck I can comprehend and you were drawing a parallel to my statement on spanking not being abuse, by asking me that question to ME

I am dismissing the parallel you're drawing by my response of keeping it in context. I dont find your question relative to what I was saying about a spank to a child and a parent being charged for it

Why? because spanking an adult is completely different in terms of being capable of mature relationships and advanced comprehension skills of the adult and the ability to supposedly know right from wrong amongst many other things [ well for some, we hope], that a child unable to comprehend right from wrong, otherwise lacks
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 120
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 10:19:46 PM
@chuck: Thank you... : ) I only hope they take the time to read it all and that it helps !
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 124
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 10:43:22 PM
chinua:

If you read my entire thread you'll see that's not what I stated at all. I did state however that it should have started with your brother at a young age being told exactly what was expected of him as a part of your family.. Family rules!!! Respecting each other etc. Explaining thoroughly if necessary what was right and wrong, and appropriate and inappropriate behavior and what would happen if he broke any of your parents rules. Remember, there are consequences for breaking all rules/laws, not just parental ones!

When your brother threw a knife at your other brother's door....one would hope he had to pay the consequences for doing that...and not have been rewarded with a hug for it!! That is clearly what I said, that it's very important to not only state the consequences...but to follow through with them. Obviously your brother had no fear, because the consequences were probably not carried through each time he broke a rule.

Rewards come into effect for NOT breaking the rules, as I believe I stated, after which time, incentives may be set up to entice them to continue to do things right. He certainly didn't deserve a reward for the things he wrongfully did, now did he?

Please reread my thread...I know it's long, but it is beneficial. If you don't understand the method, kindly ask again and I'll try to explain it to you!
 greggles10
Joined: 6/22/2005
Msg: 126
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 10:49:42 PM
IT IS ABOUT TIME THAT PARENTS TOOK CONTROL AND THE LAW TO BE CHANGED BACK TO THE 60s WHERE CHILDREN WERE UNDER CONTROL BY THE PARENTS AND THE POLICE. I AGREE THAT SOME PARENTS OVER DO IT BUT A GOOD BELT ACROSS THE EARS OR A SLAP ON THE ASS NEVER HURT ANYONE> THAT IS WHY WE GOT PROBLEMS WITH KIDS TODAY. LET ALL THE JUDGES BABYSIT THE KIDS............GEES, THERE IS SO MUCH BULLSHIT ON THIS
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 131
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/28/2005 11:01:57 PM
Please note that when it comes to classes on parenting skills and/or behavior modification, there are many methods available to try. I know of NONE however that involve being physical with a child in any way!

@greggles: I believe the police getting involved too many times is one of the reasons that brought about this positive change, that being physical with your child or anyone for that matter is against the law!!

You made a statement and answered it quite clearly! lol Let me help you by removing a couple of words to make it exactly right though...


I AGREE THAT SOME PARENTS OVER DO IT

A GOOD BELT ACROSS THE EARS OR A SLAP ON THE ASS
hmmmmmmm
THAT IS WHY WE GOT PROBLEMS


Yep, now you got it right!!! : )~
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 133
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anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 12:10:29 AM

punishment never heals....only LOVE can


So should we let everyone who has been found guilty of a serious crime out of jail?


Unzippedpassion, I agree with almost everything you said in your post. Many of those techniques I have been using with my own children for over 20 years. My point is not what is the BEST way of dealing with kids ... I think there are lots of fine methods available, and lots of alternatives that would result in a typical family never having to "spank" their children.


What I am saying is that if society condemns spanking by calling it abuse, good parents will end up in jail, safe and happy kids will end up in foster care, and siblings will be torn away from each other. This is what happens NOW. And not even in cases where the parents are particularly bad (no abuse, no neglect and still the State/Crown steals the child away from its family ... did you read about Joshua?)

I would be all for having Nanny 911 come into my home and teach me more about how to raise my kids. To be honest, I think the show would be pretty boring, as discipline of any kind is not something that is required in my home very often. Certainly not daily or even weekly. We could probably use a few tips on tidying up and getting the dishes done sooner, but that would be about it.


As for the law, in Canada at least, it is not yet against the law to spank your children. It is against the law to abuse them. Sometimes the line gets blurred. Advocates of anti-spanking laws suggest that it is better to tear the family apart, send the parent(s) to jail, and separate the siblings and send them into foster homes (which have a HIGHER than average rate of abuse) where they will quite likely never see their parents, brothers or sisters again, than it is to allow parents the choice of child-rearing techniques that MIGHT include spanking.


Is it really difficult to see which holds the greater harm?


Personally I would like to see greater education. Teach parents of wild children how to better control them (with or without spanking). Train parents with special needs children how to handle the violence appropriately (I received such training, but only a small amount and I had to pay for it). Advocate safety for children and PUT ACTUAL ABUSERS BEHIND BARS. But actual abusers are not parents who, with good conscience, spank their child in an effort to protect or edify them. Personally, I have never struck my children in anger ... ever, under any circumstance, and they are well aware that what I did I did because I could think of no other way to protect them. You gave an example of a "hit" causing a child to fall and hurt themselves. Well what about the opposite, when a failure to act on part of the parent results in the child hurting him/herself (such as Little Lady protecting her child from a hot element)?

When my daughter was about four she struck me so hard in the stomach that I fell to my knees, then she ran straight towards traffic. We had just had a nice meal at a restaurant and were walking out of the building. I was holding her hand and talking to a friend. The rage came on so fast I had absolutely no warning. It was everything I could do to get back on my feet, run to her and pull her back from the busy street. I did not hit her. I did not spank her afterwards. I did hold her as I had been trained to do. But I also scolded her. Was that abuse? And if someone came along afterwards and only saw me holding her and heard the scolding, would they have had the right to report me and have my daughter taken away from me? For saving her life?


The answer to a society with excessive spanking is not a law that destroys families that spank. Image what would happen if every single parent who ever spanked their child was required to give all of their children over to foster care! To start with, a huge number of foster care parents would be giving up their children as well. Where would all these "abused" children go? Who would look after them? 65% of American families accept spanking as a valid form of disciplining a child. (I do not have a stat for Canada.) Obviously it varies by degree within each home, but still ... where would 65% of the nation's children go?

The answer, I believe is Education. Add programs to schools. Have programs for new parents (or expecting parents). Show what is appropriate parenting through all stages of childhood ... not just regarding spanking. Provide counseling for parents with difficult situations.

Believe me, it would be a lot cheaper to do all that than it would be to send 65% of the parents in North America to jail and farm out 65% of the nations children to foster care. You think your taxes are high now!

And if you can cover every single possibility, every combination of child and parent, of good situation or bad, and still show, in every single case, that spanking is never required under any circumstance, then honestly, I think you would be worthy of a Nobel Prize nomination. Personally, I do not think that is going to happen, at least not for a few generations. And in the meantime, effort should be focused on what CAN be done in an imperfect world, rather than what might ideally be done in a perfect world.
 crystalise
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 135
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 1:23:07 AM
[""and i think it is kind of cruel to put your own child through something(spanking) you yourself would'nt be willing to be put through. Just my thoughts """ ]

Thats not a problem xchuck. I respect your opinion and would respect your right to rear your children the way you see fit. I did say in an earlier post it is not something [spanking or smack] I personally would do.

I just think the laws go too far when a parent could be potentially 'locked up' or their children taken away because a spank. If this were to happen to a child at such an earlier stage I think the ramifications would be a lot more horrendous than a smack on the bottom.
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 136
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 5:39:07 AM

Yes, time outs are the answer to behavoir problems. We know how well the jail system is working.
Nice.
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 137
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 6:31:10 AM
Yes, time outs are the answer to behavoir problems. We know how well the jail system is working.


Actually, that was an ignorant statement to use as a joke. Do you honestly think if the solution to correcting their problem were to physically beat each and every person who was jailed for any type of offense, that the outcome would be better?

Yes some people have no fear, and the consequence isn't strong enough to register so they repeat the crime, however, MOST people who are jailed for breaking the law, do NOT end up back there again. You're referring to a small percentage, when in fact you need to remember that there are literally many many many people who end up in jail for various reasons. Therefore...that "time out" DID WORK, so your joke in fact was not relevant to the actual truth!!!

Let me also remind you that most repeat criminals, whose problems are so severe, usually have those severe problems because of things traced back to their childhood (and I might add were usually abused in some way or another)! These criminals have a much harder time becoming responsible adults. Of course they grew up thinking that hitting and violence were a way of life, and probably never paid the consequences for the rules they broke as children..hence their no fear! Many of the people in my class are from the jails, alcohol and drug centers, as well as homeless and domestic violence shelters. The class is mandated for many of them because it is found that adding education is highly effective as a part of the treatment in certain areas that may have caused them to make some wrong decisions in life. Those who are jailed repeatedly, get longer and longer terms, which then include adding other consequences, such as forcing education on them. Sooner or later it's only a small fraction who repeat their jail stay and those are among the worst cases....which once again I'm sure you realize, most...had problems that stemmed from their youth.
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 139
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:42:56 AM
@RFlagg:

First let me state that by all you've written, it seems to me that you've done an excellent job of child rearing.

Now, to comment on some of the things you've written. Yes, I'm sure there may be some mistaken cases where the state handles the situation in an uncalled for way. However, I'd also hope that the law would be set up to understand different levels of the alleged act, and each person would have a right to explain their case. At that point, after hearing all sides, I don't think the state would advocate removing a child from the parent, knowing it was not a case of absolute abuse. Along with that, we're all aware of that it is most beneficial for the child to remain with the parents..(costs and foster care incl.). However, for the safety and best interest of the child, there may be a cause to at least bring some cases into the light for a proper decision to be made. Once again as in any case, yes, I'm sure some wrong decisions would and have been made, but isn't the welfare of the child what's most important? Also, a simple way to never have a wrong decision made against a parent, would be to never hit your child...period!

You made a very strong statement that I'd like to comment on. You said,


sometimes the lines get blurred


That's exactly the problem! Sometimes it's hard to tell who is actually stepping over that line! As I stated in my post, many times what one intended as a small swat to the behind, can manifest into something more. (accidentally or otherwise) With that said, who's to determine if it was "over the line?" Also I pointed out that if it's all right for the mother, then why not the father, or babysitter, or grandparents who are in charge of the child? Given that authority to discipline in a physical way, who will meter just how hard a swat on the behind to give, or how many swats is acceptable, and who will determine if one's strength is more than another...or for that matter whether the child even deserved a swat at that time. The best answer to that, is for no one to touch the child, and then no determinations have to be made.

As for your paragraph on education.. I totally agree, of course, and I've been educating families for many years with this form of behavior modification, as well as the incentive program used in many schools. I'm sorry you had to pay for services to benefit your child, because here you would, and could, go for classes through the state for free, if you felt they would benefit you or your child. I would strongly suggest anyone with any problems with their childs behavior, seek out what methods of behavior modification are available through various education offered on the topic. In fact, new and better ideas come forward all the time, and education never hurt anyone....and often times it's a concerned parent who doesn't even have any problems, who is willing to take the classes looking for better ways. I say, smart parenting.... to look at ways to prevent instead of having to correct problems later!

When you talked about protecting them from getting hurt as in a hot element or walking into the street, you did the absolute correct thing. From what you just said, you were not physically inflicting pain on your child by grabbing them back from walking into a street. You were preventing them from pain. Followed up with verbal scolding that included reassuring them how much you love them and why you just reacted like you did, along with reasons why they could have been seriously hurt had they proceeded without you stopping them, is what should have happened. You should have also included the consequences if they indeed did that kind of thing again, and following up if in fact they chose to.
I highly doubt anyone would call what you did abuse, and if they did and tried to take it farther, they'd lose.

Now, as far as spanking/swatting that child for almost getting hurt...doesn't it seem silly that one would choose to inflict pain to prevent pain? Think about the logic in that!

I offered a partial outlay of what the classes I teach involve, and know it's not the perfect solution for everyone. My hopes are only to open some eyes that there are other forms of disciplining our children, and are certainly much more effective that getting physical with them for all the reasons I've stated in my first post! Of course I posted because of all those stating that using physical force was acceptable, and even the best way to discipline!

Parenting is not easy, and it's a job that will remain ours through our child's entire life. Remember, little child, little problems.......big children, big problems. If they grow up to respect us, they will continue to come to us for our advice and hopefully when they do, we'll give them the best answers we know how to, which is all that can be expected of us, and all we can give! I give mine.....With Unconditional Love Always.....................

Good luck to everyone!

** P.S. Need tips for getting those dishes done sooner? I can give you that too!
 sddude
Joined: 11/4/2004
Msg: 140
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 10:24:52 AM
When I was a child , I was the most horrible terror of the 8 kids in the family , all never got spanked or rarely , I was the oldest , but a huge bart simpson, always had firecrackers and a sling shot in my pocket , weekly and sometimes daily may father had complaints from teachers . I loved to burn things , burn garbage in garbage cans in the alleys , blowing up toys , especially dolls , the cheap ones would lauch , the arms legs and the head with a small firecracker , I even made a trap pit for hobo's near the railroad tracks , it was always funny to see and angry hobo in the pit and my siblings would be horrified of the deed. I always helped the hobo out and gave him sanwiches after that , the thrill was watching big things happen , like burning down a house to be demolished and watch the fire trucks go by .

Put pennies on the railroad tracks to see them get sqashed or jump over the fence to the freeway to pick up alot of stuff people lose out their windows , collected alot of ballcaps and teddy bears ... loved to ride my bike in the underground flood control tunnels of Los Angeles and grab a woman's ankles at the bus stop, the shear terror of the scream because of a strange hand appering from under the sidewalk was exilarating for me , or to jump into an old city dump site to play archeologist and make dagerous tunnels unde people's houses to steal the pilons that held them up to sell as baseball bases for those popular empty lots , alot of angry people were looking for the culprit that caused their houses to sag . putting firecrackers in school toilets during rush hour caused alot of wet bottoms over and over , even teachers till I got caught , even my famouse great flood caused by me at school , better than barts , he would have been proud .

I kept every kind of animal in pens and under my house , captured gophers and kept them as pets , had up to 20 of them my parents did not know a bout until I released them to my dads perfect lawn , boy was he pissed . Had up to 50 frogs , I played with them , they were my soldiers , real live ones that rode in my army trucks , they had their forts in a little grove of bannana trees boy I miss Los Angeles .


All of this was before the age of 12 , I was the little terror

I was never violent , never beat on anyone or stole or did drugs , I guess my inclinations to do things like this was to blow off steam , I was beat up after school everyday just because I was small and wore glasses .

My dad fixed me from all rhose spankings , I give thanks to my dad for that , to staighten me out was the beest thing he can do and to give me the example of what love and caring was about , mom and dad always loved eachother , still do , I was their pain in their a*** , the spanking is what I deserved and what my siblings almost never ever got , mine was almost daily . every spanking kept me from doing the same stupid thing so I had to make something different , Yelling , talking, timouts or sitting never worked on myinclination , timeouts and sitting in the corner just had me time to think on the next mischeif , yelling and talking got my parent voice filter on , putting me to do something like work ggot me to stil run mischeif , doing everyone's bed had me place rubber insects all under the covers for my later enjoyment .

After all of that spanking I got mellow and more controlled , still do alot of things but I think about it first , I hope I never have a kid like me , .... now I need some mayo to put on the guys desk handle in the next cubicle ...hehehehe

My parents had it easy raising all my very naturally obideient , hrdworking brothers and sisters , they were almost self raising and policing , my mom never cooked cleaned or washed cloths , we all did it but mostly they , I got out of that stuff .

Guess what ? me being the only spanked one , is the most ssuccessful economically , the one that helps all of them , by far my parents fav kid , they tell that to everyone , everyone depends on me to fix their problems , I am the man , the hero to my family for certain things and the only one was spanked often for the sake of correction , never did drugs , drink or smoke even though even one else did . But the only widower though
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 141
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 12:22:32 PM
@unzippedpassion:


First let me state that by all you've written, it seems to me that you've done an excellent job of child rearing.


Thank you for that. I have had a number of people, including teachers, my family doctor, friends and family and even my ex all say the same thing. And I include spankings. They are very rare. They are never administered in anger. And they would be criminal under an Anti-spanking law. Yet I know in my heart that I am the best person available to look after my daughter. She needed a great deal of extra care ... much more than my first daughter ever required. And I have used every resource available to me to insure that she made it through that period of her life where she was frequently consumed by rage. Today, you would not know it. Except for the occasional teenage drama queen outburst, she is one of the most behaved kids I know. Much better than her older sister (whom for all intents and purposes was never "spanked"). But her sister was not an enraged child. She never hurt herself or anyone else. (Well, she crashed her bike once, but you know what I mean.)



I highly doubt anyone would call what you did abuse, and if they did and tried to take it farther, they'd lose.


You must not live in Canada, because this statement is just plain wrong. I know of two families in my own town where Child Services came in to "protect" the child from parents who spanked their kids (in one case, the father only threatened to spank the child, which it turns out is actually worse than if he had simply spanked her … go figure). In both cases, the child was taken away and placed in foster care. While in foster care, one of those children was BADLY abused by another kid in the foster home. The other child was not allowed to see her parents, her siblings, her grandparents, any of her friends or cousins for months.

Luckily in both cases, the families are back together. But the family of the child that was abused has been facing very serious issues with their son because of that abuse. And the kid that was "threatened" by her father: she swore to him that she would never call Family Services again, no matter what. What does that tell you?

Another thing that you might not know is that there was a move to get “yelling” classified as abuse as well as “spanking”. I do not know if yelling is still on the table or not, but had someone heard me when I ran to catch my daughter, it would definitely have qualified as a yell.

I have heard several times in this thread that "hitting a child to teach them not to hit makes no sense". The problem with that statement is that it is not a description of the issue. If a child hits someone and is automatically hit for it without any explanation, without any definition of boundaries of acceptable behavior, then yes, that is probably just going to reinforce the bad behavior. I know with my family I have never done anything like that. Because that is not a "spanking". An earlier post speaks about a child who was "worse that Bart Simpson", yet never "hit" anyone. He was spanked, and he contends that that loving action from his father helped to straighten him out and make him the good, solid person he is today. This was not hitting to stop hitting. It was a consequence for bad behavior, and likely (as it worked) it was prefaced with other escalated forms of discipline and reinforcement of the rules.




sometimes the lines get blurred


I acknowledge that sometimes someone is technically abusing a child when they think they are spanking the child (that is why I wrote this). But what laws like these propose is that becasue some people cross that line, all people who spank, no matter how reasonably MUST GO TO JAIL. At the very least must lose their children. This is insane. In a case where a parent takes spanking too far TEACH THE PARENT! Don't take away the children, especially not from the bad parent AND from everyone else as well.

This might be a weak analogy, but I see it like this. We have cares. We can drive up to a certain speed, and the law accepts that. We can even exceed the maximum allowed speed and we will be fined, and told to slow down. We will not lose our driving privileges. We will not have the car taken away. But if we go even faster, the fines increase. The threat of suspension and impoundment occur. If we still go faster, we are stopped. We have our driving privileges removed and the car taken away.

It is a contrived fit, I know, but substitute spanking for speed, parenting for driving privilege and children for cars. I would suggest that the “fines” should be some form of mandatory parenting education as well. A law like this I might support (doubtful) but one that totally outlaws driving (spanking) completely would be like saying “some people speed (abuse spanking) so we are going to eliminate all driving”.

I still contend that spanking has its place. It might be rare, it might be imperfect, it might be avoidable at times if the family functions perfectly. But even Dr. Spock said that there was no evidence that spanking caused harm to a child later in life. Abuse causes that kind of harm, and what no one seems to get is that spankings are not abuse ... abuse is abuse. Go after abusers with a big stick if you like. Anyone who thinks using a cigarette on a child's arm is acceptable discipline deserves to be put away. And foster care, though it is a crap shoot as well, at least has the probability in its favor that it will be better than living with that kind of parenting.

I know there are alternatives to spanking. There might even be an alternative for spanking in every conceivable situation. But making a law against it is not going to instantly make perfect parents out of everyone, nor is it going to “save” any children. Statistically speaking, it is going to make the lives of a few children better and a lot of children worse. An Anti-spanking law would be akin to chopping off a leg to treat a hangnail.


Good Luck!

P.S. Housecleaning tips would be great, but when it comes right down to it, we are just lazy *smile*
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 142
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 12:59:42 PM

You must not live in Canada, because this statement is just plain wrong. I know of two families in my own town where Child Services came in to "protect" the child from parents who spanked their kids (in one case, the father only threatened to spank the child, which it turns out is actually worse than if he had simply spanked her … go figure). In both cases, the child was taken away and placed in foster care. While in foster care, one of those children was BADLY abused by another kid in the foster home. The other child was not allowed to see her parents, her siblings, her grandparents, any of her friends or cousins for months.

Actually Flagg, the Supreme Court of Canada did make a ruling on the use of corporal punishment, and it is one I applaud, as a parent who did spank the odd time. I believe Canada's ruling on spanking strikes a wonderful balance and protects not only loving and responsible parents who believe spanking may be warranted in some instances, but also it protects children from being abused.

http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/CBC_Supreme_Court_upholds_spanking_30JAN04.htm

Here is an excerpt from the news article.

Supreme Court upholds spanking law

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), January 30, 2004

OTTAWA - Canada's top court has upheld a law allowing parents to spank their children and set guidelines outlining "reasonable limits" in a case led by a Saskatoon social work professor.


There are many awful social workers as many of us know. BC's ministry of child protection as we all know is in a shambles due to the severe cutbacks from our wonderful Campbell government. I'm sure there are poor decisions made by ill equipped and trained social workers, but if the case ever went to court, there is no way it would stand....as long as the spanking followed in the guidelines.

Has anyone read about the devastation over in Sweden in regards to families being torn apart, kids forcibly taken from loving homes and put into foster homes, many of which are abusive? Look it up and see for yourself. I've done a fair bit of research on spanking as I'm involved in the spanking thread over in the single parents forum. Sweden criminalized spanking back in '79. I have to say, I was shocked and greatly saddened to read about what is happening over there.
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 143
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 2:30:38 PM
Thanks for the article CC. I was aware of the Supreme Court ruling, but I was also aware of the anecdotal situations that I mentioned and have seen first hand. Mind you, both of my examples pre-date the SC ruling (late 1990's and 2001). I was also not aware of the Swedish situation, but I will look for more information about it.

The other thing that concerns me, and perhaps you know more about this than I do, is that Child Welfare type services often have discretionary powers that would make George Bush envious. Being able to take children from a home without a warrant, for example. Also, the Family Court does not have the same kinds of proceedings that a Criminal Court has. Sure, the parents are less likely to end up charged and in jail, but their kids are still taken away, often with conditions that completely forbid any kind of familial contact. And, under the guise of protecting the child, the proceedings are often held in secret, without the benefit of public scrutiny. For those who in this thread commented about how someone would feel, as an adult, being treated “unfairly”, I ask, how would you feel if your family was torn apart, you were falsely accused, and you were allowed no representation, you were granted no rights, and there were practically no evidentiary rules ... anyone’s opinion could be entered into evidence against you! Yet that is how our Family Court system works (at least, it was like that only a few years ago, and I don't see any reason to suspect it has changed).

The scariest part of this is exactly what you elude to in the mentioning of the state of Foster Care in BC. A newspaper article recently mentioned that 713 children who died in Foster Care in BC had not had their deaths reviewed by a coroner. 700 Children in one Province!!! How is it that so many children even died, let alone were not reviewed!


The following was gleaned from the web. More details are at http://www.nccpr.org/newissues/1.html

- a child is nearly twice as likely to die of abuse in foster care as in the general population.
- a Baltimore study found the rate of "substantiated" cases of sexual abuse in foster care is more than four times higher than the rate in the general population.
- an Indiana study found three times more physical abuse and twice the rate of sexual abuse in foster homes than in the general population.
- In group homes there was more than ten times the rate of physical abuse and more than 28 times the rate of sexual abuse as in the general population (in part because so many children in the homes abused each other).
- Those studies deal only with reported maltreatment. The actual amount of abuse in foster care is likely to be far higher, since agencies have a special incentive not to investigate such reports, since they are, in effect, investigating themselves.
- In a study of investigations of alleged abuse in New Jersey foster homes, the researchers found a lack of “anything approaching reasonable professional judgment” and concluded that “no assurances can be given” that any New Jersey foster child is safe.
- in Broward County, Florida, over a period of just 18 months a lawyer was made personally aware of 50 instances of child-on-child sexual abuse involving more than 100 foster children. The official number during this same period: Seven - because until what the lawyer called "an epidemic of child-on-child sexual abuse" was exposed, the child abuse hotline didn't accept reports of such abuse.
- Another Baltimore study, found abuse in 28 percent of the foster homes studied -- more than one in four.
- A study of cases in Fulton and DeKalb Counties in Georgia found that among children whose case goal was adoption, 34 percent had experienced abuse, neglect, or other harmful conditions. For those children who had recently entered the system, 15 percent had experienced abuse, neglect or other harmful conditions in just one year.
- A study of foster children in Oregon and Washington State found that nearly one third reported being abused by a foster parent or another adult in a foster home.


And yet, where will the children of a spanking parent end up if we take them away from their families? In this very system that is so over-burdened as it is that children are being physically and sexually abused … even dying … at multiple times the rates in the general population.

If ever there was a case of cutting off one’s nose to spite their face, this is it.
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 145
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 3:01:52 PM
Here is a link to one site I found, discussing the situation in Sweden. It is written by a Lawyer in Sweden. In the closing paragraph she writes...

It is in the hope of alerting educated opinion outside of Sweden that I come to speak to you today. You may not be able to do anything for us in Sweden since that is our responsibility - but, at the very least, I hope that you will recognise the simple techniques by which the state can seek to gain power over its people. In resisting such moves here, you may be able to isolate and shame Sweden into putting her own house in order.

http://www.christian-parents.net/Children/C125_Folly_of_Sweden_Outlaw_Spanking.htm

We really do need to stand up and take notice and above all, not only protect our children, but protect our rights as parents.
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 146
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 4:57:32 PM
@ RFlagg:

I complimented you based on how controled you seem to be, and your understanding of things....however because not all people are like you, I will never condone the use of any type of discipline involving physical strength. You have to know that you can't compare your children's dispositions now by the fact that one was spanked and one was not because for every scenario you give like that, I'm sure someone could counter it. My children are respectable and well behaved and I've never spanked them. Children all grow up different for many reasons: )


And the kid that was "threatened" by her father: she swore to him that she would never call Family Services again, no matter what. What does that tell you?


That tells me absolutely nothing!!! Simply because so many abused men/women and children I counsel, grew up to believe that love meant abusing them...and they accept that to be truth! If I had a dime for every person I speak with who doesn't want to upset/ rat out/ cause harm to/ or disturb in any way the person who abused them...I'd be rich! In fact, many victims still chose to protect their abuser. Why?? Because they love them (by their understanding of the word), and would rather be with them than to imagine the God awful consequences of being removed from their familiar surroundings and being placed in the home of a stranger. Due to the circle of abuse, the victim believes that person loves them even when they hurt them. Therefore that statement is actually quite commonly used by victims!


Another thing that you might not know is that there was a move to get “yelling” classified as abuse as well as “spanking'


Not to change the subject but many things now fall under the catagory of abuse when pertaining to domestic violence so I could imagine that things like "yelling", verbally and mentally abusing etc, might eventually be looked at. I don't know how I feel about that so I'll refrain from commenting on it at this time.


I acknowledge that sometimes someone is technically abusing a child when they think they are spanking the child (that is why I wrote this).

And that is why we can't take the chance of all people being responsible to know what's an acceptable swat and what isn't!


But what laws like these propose is that becasue some people cross that line, all people who spank, no matter how reasonably MUST GO TO JAIL. At the very least must lose their children. This is insane.

I would agree that there should be levels to assess what the appropriate punishment for the crime should be, and not necessarily that ALL parents go directly to jail. Education etc. should be mandated first.


Don't take away the children, especially not from the bad parent AND from everyone else as well.
So you think they should leave the child with a bad parent just because they would be taken away from everyone else? What did I miss?


what no one seems to get is that spankings are not abuse ... abuse is abuse

Some spankings may be abusive so you can't make that statement, and that's the whole point. Because there's no way to measure the strength, or whether it was even deserved, or to predict what the outcome of the swat would be...(physically or mentally on the child), the best way to avoid having to determine if it was abuse or not, is to avoid the physical form of discipline all together!
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 148
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 5:24:34 PM
@janicholie:

I never said that the same method would work for everyone. In fact I agree with you and stated that there are lots of options, and if one thing doesn't work, there are certainly other's to try. Just as consequences that no longer seem to be working, sometimes need to be changed or more strict. However, none of the methods I'm familiar with to help with behavior modification, include the use of physical discipline in any way, shape, or form!


PS: Im sure its only a matter of time before prisoners get their own cell phones.

I don't know if you realized the pun...but good one!!! prisoners...cell phones!!
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 151
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:09:36 PM
^^^I'll hope by your icons that you were kidding?!?!?!?
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 152
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:16:54 PM
I have to say, I find it humorous when I hear non spanking parents say they use positive reinforcement techniques, and other 'non-violent' parenting skills and they have wonderfully behaved, very respectful children. I have been around far too many of these parents and their children, to agree with how wonderfully behaved their children are. I'm not generalizing, as there has been the odd well behaved child, but the majority have been what I would call, mouthy, cheeky brats. My own brother has one. For the most part, my 5 yr old nephew is a cutie pie, but he can get a tad cheeky with adults, in his tone and facial expression mainly. He tried it with me, and I instantly got down to his level, looked him square in the eye and said....."You will NOT speak to Auntie like that, it's disrespectful, and we don't talk to each other like that in my home". He got all teary eyed and my brother was about to get on his high horse when I simply said....."I didnt put up with cheekiness like that from my own son and I certainly wont put up with it from my nephew, in my own home especially." No, he wasn't spanked, but my point is...I've seen far too many unruly kids that have not been spanked than ones who were spanked.
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 155
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/29/2005 10:02:55 PM
@ xchuck

No, I certainly don't believe that spanking is the only effective discipline tool. I came into this discussion late, so I apologize for not explaining myself better.

I'm a firm believer in using many different discipline techniques, time outs, positive reinforcement, teaching by example etc.......AND spanking. In a nutshell, I only spanked my son for outright defiant behavior, and that was rarely. What I was trying to say in my last post was, I have 'personally' been around many of these parents who firmly don't believe in spanking, they believe in allowing little Johnny and Janie to express ALL their emotions no matter who they are directed at, and no matter where they are. I have 'personally' been around these parents who I have heard tell others, "yes my little Johnny is so well behaved and respectful, and I never spank him". Well I have seen plenty of little Johnny's who are in 'my opinion' not as well behaved and as respectful as they could be. These same parents always excuse certain behaviors like......"oh he's going through the terrible 2's, so it's normal for him to have temper tantrums, bite, kick, scream, pinch etc." I'm not saying EVERY parent who does not include spanking in their discipline techniques has children like this, but far too many times it seems they do.
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