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 AUTHOR
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 184
anti- spanking lawsPage 5 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
@unzipped

I think I'm abusing myself at this point because I can't even see straight and need a big computer break!!

No, what you need is a .....

.................

.........................

.................................SPANKING!

Ok, so on a serious note, I do understand your reasoning. The thing is, there has always been child abuse, there is currently child abuse going on, and I fear there always will be child abuse. There will always be parents who refuse to educate themselves, and we can only help so much.

Has anyone seen the movie with Sean Penn, "I Am Sam"? If you haven't I strongly suggest you rent it. Don't forget to get an extra large box of tissue to have alongside you as well. Trust me, you will need it. My son even said, "man mom, even I almost busted out a tear". My son and I just finished watching this movie and it really brought home to me what an incredible negative impact, well intentioned governmental intrusion can have, into a happy and well functioning family. Instead of arguing the merits of whether to spank or not, what this thread was started for by the OP I believe, was about anti-spanking laws, and how stupid they are. I go on record to state, they are not only stupid but dangerous for the entire family unit. Yes there needs to be guidelines set forth, and that is why I think Canada is a step ahead of many other countries when they upheld the rights of parents to spank if they felt it was warranted. There are much deeper and darker issues here than just rallying up and demanding that all spanking should be criminalized. I hate to be repetitive, but just look into what has happened in Sweden. I'm not going to post that article that was written by a Swedish lawyer who deals with the collapse of the bio family, as it's simply too long and if anyone is really interested, they can look it up themselves. Yes I am all for protecting our children from abuse, but I am also for protecting my family from the intrusion of the government into my personal life.
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 185
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/30/2005 10:19:51 PM
Hey unzipped ... I know what you mean about feeling abused. I work and play on these damnable boxes (I have three computers in a arc around me). I think my eyes are wearing out.

One thought from your last post: you said (if I read it right) that you "never suggest [spanking]". I think, given your job and that you live in the states, that you are probably very wise not to. The US is soooo litigious, that if you did include even a hint that spankings were okay, and one of your clients took it to the extreme and abused (i.e., really hurt) their child, YOU COULD BE SUED!

I am not saying that that is fair, or right, but it is reality.


Just another little factoid re the posts with CC and the grandparents spanking their grand-kids. In Canada at least, this would be legal, as a "parent or person standing in the place of a parent" is allowed to "spank" an unruly child. The person standing in would be either someone the parent or the State placed in Authority over the child.

Personally, I have a cell phone and a number that the person is to call immediately my daughter does anything uncontrollable. Luckily, there has never been a serious problem when I was not around, but at the same time, for many years I barely went anywhere without her. I even quit my job so I could be home with her 24/7 (I work from my home), and I am never far from school in case I am needed.


marita_b: big "10-4" on the whole "range of emotions" in kids point. Even last night I was faced with this dilemma, as my daughter was playing with her friend, and she was pretending to be a dinosaur. The other girl was moving her finger towards my daughter, and my daughter was snapping her teeth at the finger to try to catch it. I was on egg-shells the whole time, but I tried to let them just play their game, as normal children would not hurt each other (at least not seriously) playing like this. Still, I was concerned at how quickly my daughter could turn this game into something more nasty.

There were a couple of times when I just said something like, "play nice", to which came back the "yep, we're okay dad". Okay: we are at DEFCON 5.

But now it makes me wonder. Most of the time, my daughter has a lot of freedom in choosing her activities, especially through the holidays. (I am not one of those parents who makes them do homework on their time off.) But I am always aware of that potential that things can get bad fast. I probably should not worry so much now, because each year is a marked improvement over the last.


crystalize: Well said. I really have learned a lot here, even though I have not changed my basic opinion on the central topic, nor do I expect anyone else to change theirs. I especially liked learning that I can "spank" an adult so long as they agree to it ahead of time! ... Okay, where is that little devil icon *smile*.

Good Luck!
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 186
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/31/2005 12:05:52 AM
@Coffee and RFlagg........... yeaaaaaaa I think we actually see each others sides and we can almost stand united, which is close enough for me!! Oh yeah, RFlagg...you got that right on that logic about getting sued!! big time : )

Coffee..

RFlagg... I noticed you don't drink so....we'll eat! Ohhhh No, my New Years Diet, we'll dance instead
andddddddddd not to worry about the drunk driving laws because neither Coffee nor I are driving...you're the designated driver tonight!

Thanks

My job is done here so I'll Zippppppppppppppp and be on my way.....

Nite!
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 188
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/31/2005 9:16:03 PM
HAPPY NEW YEARS!

Wishing everyone a ...........spanking good time.
 eyes4u21211
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 190
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/31/2005 11:40:31 PM
Now if someone WANTS to be spanked, a raised hand is an unfulfilled promise, not a threat. But I don't think that's what they're talking about.
 Polly_G
Joined: 11/21/2005
Msg: 191
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/31/2005 11:54:14 PM
I was spanked and threatened with the wooden spoon. I gotta say it didn't do one thing to deter me. I think its different strokes for different folks. On more than one occassion when my parents were lecturing me I would say, "can't you just spank me and get it over with?"....they would oblige.

I wasn't a bad kid just extremely independent which is something I don't think you should discourage in a child who has that streak in them. I'm a lot taller than my father so by the time I was 12 I was a lot larger than him. He tried to spank one day and I told him that basically if it hadn't worked by now it wasn't going to. That if he was going to spank me it was more about him than it was about me and I would fight him. I never got spanked again ....ok they went to the other extreme and kind of let me do whatever I want then...which wasn't good either.

I know lots of people who raise very polite well-behaved children without spanking. My neice is one of them. She also knows if ANYONE hits her its wrong. She is a strong willed child but she is also has a huge amount of patience and compassion as well. Would she be so confident and compassionate if she was spanked?

I'm against spanking because I don't think its really a deterrant other than makes them fear fearful and threatened into compliance. I have seen kids who are bullies who are spanked at home. Whether a kid acts spoiled or not doesn't have anything to do with spanking.

I'm torn on the whole if your neighbour sees you thing. Growing up in a close community was one of those things that kept us in check. We couldn't do anything without our mother finding out about it. She knew way too many freaking people. If anyone saw us being bad my mom new about it before we even got home. THAT was our deterrant.

Oh, and this taking our word over the word of other parents....never happened. My parents loved us but knew we were kids...kids will sometimes lie to save their own ass....regardless of how good they 'usually' are. Now a days I find that its hit and miss on the reaction you are going to get when you tell a parent that their child has been bad. When I used to be a childcare giver, on more than one occassion had to contact a parent only to get a defensive attitude back saying that the child I was caring for MUST have done something to cause it.

To those types I have to wonder who is the parent and who is the child. You are not protecting your child by making excuses for their behavior.
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 194
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 6:21:44 AM

No kid deserves to be abused, but I dont think the government is really capable of making such decisions concerning parenting conduct. The government can barly do what it does now.
It's far from a perfect system, but the alternative would be no intervention re: abuse, which would be worse.
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 195
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 7:41:29 AM
@Polly

I know lots of people who raise very polite well-behaved children without spanking. My niece is one of them. She also knows if ANYONE hits her its wrong. She is a strong willed child but she is also has a huge amount of patience and compassion as well. Would she be so confident and compassionate if she was spanked?

I would answer yes, as this is probably her nature, my son is the same. My son is strong willed, confident, compassionate, loving, and has great empathy for others. He is also extremely polite and well behaved. He is all of these things because of his nature and because he has a 'plugged in' mom who taught, guided, nurtured, and lovingly disciplined him, and yes he was spanked.
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 197
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 10:02:53 AM

Anti-spanking=anti-parenting to me.
? Really? So if one rejects one parenting style, they are anti-parenting? What does that mean?
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 200
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 5:11:38 PM
@ Cynnie

Discipline is more than hitting someone

It sure is, and though I was a spanking mommy, I abhor people that are 'slap happy' as I call them. That is lazy parenting, and it's just as bad as the lazy parents who don't follow through on ANY form of discipline.
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 201
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 7:12:11 PM
When Hitler attacked the Jews … I was not a Jew, therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then, Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church—and there was nobody left to be concerned.
-- Martin Niemoller (1892-1984)

I do not believe that anyone in this thread is saying that a parent MUST spank their children. Quite the contrary. There are many alternatives to spanking, and any parent looking for alternatives should have lots of evidence for that here. The concern is more specifically the creation of an anti-spanking law that would turn spanking into assault. I agree with yna6 that an anti-spanking law would be equivalent to the government saying that they are a better parent for my child than I am (or anyone else for that matter, including parents who never have to, or chose not to, spank their child).

I have two children. The first never received a spanking in the traditional sense. She, like Polly_G, even asked me at least once to just spank her instead of the other punishment I chose. She never got her way, though, and not because I was against spanking, but because I knew that was not a form of discipline that would make the point.

My other child has received spankings. When she was enraged, I would attempt to use other forms of discipline, but invariably, they would only enrage her more. She would hurt herself and others, and, at times, the only thing that would break it was a swat to her backside.

I have seen the value of both spanking and non-spanking forms of discipline, and I believe in most cases I have made the right selection for the situation at hand. I have learned alternate techniques that most parents (thankfully) will never even have to learn.

But even if I never spanked my child, or never intended to, I would still be against an anti-spanking law, because it robs parents of a valuable tool in the difficult job of raising our kids. Furthermore, I will never consent to the idea that the State can do a better job of raising my children than I can. Could a different loving parent make better choices? Sure, it's possible. But not a cold, faceless, emotionless institution who has no commitment to my child beyond her immediate welfare.


My apologies in advance to anyone who might be offended by my use of a quote about Nazi Germany in the time of WWII, but I think this prose has a bearing on this topic.


Today, the desire is to outlaw spanking. And let us postulate for a moment that it passes, and now parents must give up that right in raising their kids.

What is to say that tomorrow, the State does not outlaw giving a child sugar? Then, outlaws what programs they can watch on TV? Then, the clothes they can wear to school or in public places? Then, what religious services they can attend? What subjects they can choose in school? Who, when and where they can fraternize with children of the opposite sex? What toys they can play with? What pets they can own, if they can even own a pet at all?

Where will you draw the line as to what the State gets to define as your rights as a parent?

I might be against sugar, against inappropriate clothing and against some types of pets. As a parent, I will select what is best for my child. But if the State gets to say what is right, then I no longer have a choice. Sure, as long as I agree with everything the State takes away, I will not see a problem with this. But can you agree to all of those limitations I mentioned? And if there is even one you do not agree with (or perhaps one I have not thought to add), then you run the risk of being on the wrong side of the law should the State be allowed to mandate parenting.

And if we really don't think this can happen ... then history has taught us nothing.


Good Luck!
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 202
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 7:39:55 PM
What is to say that tomorrow, the State does not outlaw giving a child sugar? Then, outlaws what programs they can watch on TV? Then, the clothes they can wear to school

Hey, I'm all for uniforms in school!

Ok Flagg, I know you are a Canuck, have you forgotten we live in Provinces and not States?
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 204
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 8:07:36 PM
This is a tough one and I really don't think anyone can say what tone can be considered abusive. Each person has an individual tone to their voice. It really would be impossible to 'legislate' abusive tone. Some people normally talk in a loud to very loud tone, that is normal for them, others have a very quiet tone. Words more than tone I would say, COULD be classified as abusive. Again, to even attempt to legislate this would be very tricky. There are acceptable words that I use and allow my son to use and then there are unacceptable ones. For example, I have taught my son that saying...."shut up" to anyone is unacceptable and highly disrespectful. I have never once told my son to shut up and I find it very offensive when I hear parents telling their children to shut up and visa versa. I would never report a person for saying that though, even if it was on a 'list' of abusive words. I simply think to myself when I hear parents say this, "and you wonder why you have a problem with your childs attitude". That's just me though, I know others don't have a problem with it.
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 205
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 8:25:16 PM
Oh, oh, CC, am I going to have to get my dictionary again? *smile*


There are 10 listings for "state" and about a dozen meanings in the first one.

By "the State" I mean "the body politic" or the particular Government in whatever form it takes. In Canada, this would be either the Nation or a Province or Territory, although since most laws are set according to the Criminal Code of Canada, "the State" would most likely be the Nation, not the Province/Territory (although the Province/Territory might be "the State" as pertains to the enforcement of the rules AND things are always a bit different when considering Quebec).

In the US, there are Federal Laws and State Laws, but again the term "the State" means whichever Government is enacting the Law or potentially that has jurisdiction over the crime.

Globally, the term "the State" could mean a Nation, a Federation, a Commonwealth, a Country, a Democracy, a Kingdom, an Emirate, a Monarchy, a Dictatorship, a Republic, a Territory, a Dominion or a Union (that probably is not a complete list).

Note:
- Canada is actually a "constitutional monarchy that is also a parliamentary democracy and a federation".
- The United States of America is a "constitution-based federal republic" with a "strong democratic tradition".


Good Luck!
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 206
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History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 8:55:58 PM

At what vocal tone is a parent's voice abusive?

This would be difficult if not impossible to qualify in a legal sense without using a term like "what is reasonable", which implies that if a group of reasonable people observed the situation, then they would have to collectively agree that it was outside of an acceptable "vocal tone".

That said, I think anyone who reprimands a child harshly using a vocal tone that is full of personal anger should try to stop themselves and reconsider their response. Regardless of your tone, only you can know if you are angry or not, so only you know if you are being too harsh. Still, sometimes it is even good to express your anger, so long as it can be done in a non-threatening way. If children see how you deal with your anger constructively, they are more likely to learn to do the same. (Marita_b's attack on golf balls, for example. *smile*)


TO CC:
I have a few words as well, and it would probably surprise and even annoy some people to hear what they are. For example, "stupid", "idiot" and even "hate" are on the "you-better-have-a-good-reason-for-using-that-word" list. I consider them more offensive than swear words.

"Shut-up" (and others) are there too, but require a genuine intent to offend the object of the command. By that I mean that lots of times my oldest will be on the phone and someone tells her something like "Pete and Mary broke up" to which she might respond with "shut-up, your kidding". The problem with this is that my youngest overhears it and immediately yells, "dad, she said the S-up word". So, I have tried to teach them that these, like all, words have an appropriate and an inappropriate usage.


Regardless of what words are used, insults are not tolerated. I love the fact that my kids are creative, but sometimes it can be a bane to parenting. "Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Shut your festering gob! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous pervert!" [with more apologies to Monty Python, which is something I realize now I should never have let them watch. *smile*]


Good Luck!
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 207
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 9:22:08 PM

By "the State" I mean "the body politic" or the particular Government in whatever form it takes. In Canada, this would be either the Nation or a Province or Territory, although since most laws are set according to the Criminal Code of Canada, "the State" would most likely be the Nation, not the Province/Territory (although the Province/Territory might be "the State" as pertains to the enforcement of the rules AND things are always a bit different when considering Quebec).

I know what you meant, I was just 'playin' with ya!
 RFlagg
Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 208
view profile
History
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 9:36:38 PM
Yeah, I thought you were ... but then I thought it might not actually be clear to everyone, so I figured I would clarify it. *smile*
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 210
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 10:54:11 PM

I'm up for the worst government punishment of all, child support.
Nothing like shirking your responsibilities so badly that the government has to step in to protect your own child from your irresponsibility.
 girlllygirl
Joined: 11/10/2005
Msg: 212
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 10:59:51 PM
Thank you. Ditto.

 Whyareweinthishandbasket?
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 213
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 11:24:59 PM
Jani, your baby's momma should be jailed for squandering your child's support money on herself. That's child abuse too.

Things are changing fast-- hang in there-- soon men and children will have their rights restored.
 Whyareweinthishandbasket?
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 215
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/1/2006 11:54:36 PM
Alot. I've dated a slew of women drawing 1200.00 or more on child support and I know how they've spent it.

I enjoyed Greece, Rome, St Thomas, Cancun, and many cruises on some poor SOB's last dimes while the kids got clothes and food and toys from the grandparents.

There are many many many many many moms who don't deserve the title. They don't even love their kids enough to spank them-- or really speak to them very much.
 Whyareweinthishandbasket?
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 222
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/2/2006 12:27:15 AM
Nope he was crucified by the State at the insistance of the Sanhedrin for claiming to be the Son of God-- or rather, blasphemy.

So if he was the Son of God, he was killed by Socialists defending their power structure. If he wasn't, then he was more than likely spanked-- considering the Biblical command. No proof either way, but considering Xchuck's logic, I'll go with Jesus was spanked.
 Whyareweinthishandbasket?
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 223
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/2/2006 12:30:39 AM
Blasphemy was not a crime in Rome, but the State did not allow the Sanhedrin to carry out their own capital punishments.

At any rate, Jesus didn't commit a State crime.
 CoffeeCanuck
Joined: 7/30/2005
Msg: 225
anti- spanking laws
Posted: 1/2/2006 7:30:51 AM

now then, back to the argument on spanking children. im still for it.

Glad we got back on topic.
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