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 AUTHOR
 madfidlr
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 26
Demonic Posession and ExorcismPage 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)

I guess everyone views it differently. When i said street drama i don't think you understand what i was talking about. If you want to see it google DRIME and pictures will come up to explain what was happening and will also talk about spiritual warfare.

And for the record, there was no "laying our hands upon him or chanting" it was simple prayers and one command. I never said that he was happy or relieved he simply crawled away down the side walk. That is not the first experience i have had. I've seen lots and they all have one thing in common, only ONE thing can stop them. A prayer combined with faith, its an unbeatable combination.


No, no...I understood what you were talking about...just took the term drama and used it in a different context...I get the idea of using theater as part of a ministry. As far as the actual "driving out" of spirits and or "spiritual warfare" everyone has their own schtick as to how they do it...I was just describing how it may be viewed as similar despite the different names people may call it from different faiths...of course that is heretical to some people and likely to make them uncomfortable...but that's their problem.

A common problem however in any of these instances, and any instance of a miraculous or weird event is to be aware of one of the most dangerous pitfalls of fallacious logic...the post hoc fallacy. As defined in wikipedia:

"Post hoc, also known as "coincidental correlation" or "false cause," is a logical fallacy which assumes or asserts that if one event happens after another, then the first must be the cause of the second. It is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence is integral to causality — it is true that a cause always happens before its effect. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based only on the order of events, which is not an accurate indicator. That is to say, it is not always true that the first event caused the second event."

I was praying to God because I believed a person was posessed...their behaviour ceased...therefore they were posessed and the Holy Spirit delivered them...this would be an example of a post hoc fallacy...you may believe it to be true...but you do not know it to be true and it is neither logical nor reasonable to believe it so ... you have no way to test it... you may "feel" strange sensations all through you which you ascribe to the "Holy Spirit" during such an event...but again a post hoc fallacy to actually call them such because you have no way to know what they are...there may be more of "gravy than of Grave" about them.

Whatever floats a persons boat like I said...you can believe in whatever you want so long as it doesn't directly harm anyone else, their pocketbook, of adversely affect their ability to be a good neighbour.
 xNyx
Joined: 7/16/2006
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/28/2006 6:03:36 PM
"A long, long, long, long time ago
Before the wind, before the snow
Lived a man, lived a man I know
Lived a freak of nature named Sir Psycho

Sir Psycho Sexy that is me
Sometimes I find I need to scream

He's a freak of nature
But we love him so
He's a freak of nature
But we let him go"

And now, for the point. I understand what you are saying that not everything has to be seen to be believed. But also try to see it this way.

A long, long, long, long time ago, before the science, before the medication, people would often mistake mental illness with demonic possession. Is it the demons or is it the illness? Does exorcism work long term? If there were in fact demons out there attaching themselves to particular individuals, would not what once drew them in, draw them in again? How do you keep a demon from body snatching?

And we all know that a certain percentage of schizophrenics cannot be cured by medicines. Sometimes the inflicted must continue the treatment for the rest of thier lives. Is this a cure, or a wall? Or is it demonic possession?

Melissa A Bromwell describes possession; "A possessed individual is typically characterized by having strange physical ailments or disfigurements; verbal outbursts, mostly obscene or sacrilegious in nature; violent behavior and vulgar behavior; bodily spasms and contortions; ability to speak languages never before studied; self-mutilation..."

And Schitzophrenia as; "Schizophrenia is characterized by the presence of delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, disorganized or catatonic behavior, affective flattening or inappropriate emotional responses, avolition, and alogia. General psychotic episodes, such as might accompany mood disorders, can also closely simulate a state of demonic possession by hallucinations or delusions. The delusions can be ones of thought insertion, thought broadcasting, delusions of guilt, delusions of grandeur, such as being God (or a demon), or delusions that God (or a demon) is speaking to the person and giving commands for a special mission"
 LickyitySplit
Joined: 4/8/2006
Msg: 28
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/28/2006 6:48:47 PM
Wow, i love hearing what everyone thinks and believes, its really interesting.

You asked

"would not what once drew them in, draw them in again? How do you keep a demon from body snatching? "

To answer your question, first of yes, exorcism can work in the long run. How do you keep a demon from coming back? Here is what I believe. You can send protection around a person you can have angels follow them where ever they go, BUT if there are grounds for the enemy to make his way into their life, an Angel cannot stop that. Simply because a part of the person is willing the demonic activity in their life and God Cannot affect Free Will.

So what can make way for a demon or two in our lives?? I'm not 100% sure but i can give an example. I once knew a girl who would complain about having scars on her back. When i asked what they were from she said "they come from my dreams". As we started talking the girl told me that her and her best friend had watche the Exorcist over 30 times, it was their "favourite movie of all time". Then the more she watched the movie the worse her dreams became, they started with voices and sounds and then turned to images. Eventually these images began to attack her and scratch at her back while she was sleeping. At one point she could chase them away by turning on her bedroom light, eventually even that didn't work. I was skepticle of what the girl was telling me until she lifted up her shirt and numerous scars covered her back all of which were clear scratch marks from the base of her neck to her tailbone she was covered in scars and to my suprise, fresh scratches.

The girl decided she wanted to be councelling with my pastor and throughout the councelling sessions her voice would drop and wicked things would be yelled into the face of my pastor. At one point before binding the spirit the girl threw herself to the floor and began screaming, to his horror the pastor could see blood appearing under the girl's white t-shirt.

I still talk to this girl, we email each other back and forth. She is now married to a pastor, and her and her husband travel sharing the gospel. She has seen the images a time or two but knowing her authority in Christ they have not been able to attack her.
 Mr. Ivan
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 29
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/28/2006 7:57:06 PM
Just so people know, i'm not trying to start a debate!!! i just want opinions!!!


Opinions are nonsense in this discussion. I hope you are joking because if you ask for opinions instead of facts, you will get conspiracy theories and pseudosciences and you'll be even more confused than ever.

Exorcisms don't exist. End of discussion.

 madfidlr
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 30
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 12:35:46 AM
Well you may be secure in that but obviously there are still a LOT of people out there going through the motions as it were...and I'm pretty sure she's serious.

But what I am also sure of is that she is a believer and perhaps not able to see how the exorcism/deliverance phenomena looks to an outside observer who is approaching things from a rational Western scientific worldview - well I guess you just told her

Now put down that pitchfork or I'll put you to work behind the barn!
 manx182
Joined: 7/13/2006
Msg: 31
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 1:05:56 AM
I think people can get really messed up. They create life within their brains that does not follow what is tangible or real. These are demons, albeit personal ones.
 Titanvalley
Joined: 11/5/2004
Msg: 32
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 5:25:59 AM
There is a physical side to conditions like epilepsy, grey matter disorder.

Exorcisms can be done wrongly. Telling a spirit to manifest and speak hurts the person it's in, intense humiliation...

They should be commanded to come out quietly with minimal manifestations, and be commanded to stay far away and not return at all, in Jesus name.
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 33
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 6:44:38 AM
exorcism and possession exists and it doesnt matter what faith your from ,even atheists, because demons exists as well as animals and insects....they are "wanderer" spirits who for some reason have escaped their dimension and they can harm us in many ways...the Bible is full of passages talking about demons but they are present in almost every faith. In the Bible they are fallen angels who wander the earth looking desperately for inner peace...in the Coran they are called Jinns..spirits made of smokeless fire and that can change into animals, reptiles and even humans, they eat human remains and even excrements....it is said that they can reproduce as humans do....prayer and fasting is the best way to chase them away according to the Bible, but demons are also afraid of any kind of threats when they are made with very few doubts and fear.....
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 34
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 7:01:19 AM
"Opinions are nonsense in this discussion. I hope you are joking because if you ask for opinions instead of facts, you will get conspiracy theories and pseudosciences and you'll be even more confused than ever.

Exorcisms don't exist. End of discussion."

the fact that some people have never experienced these supernatural phenomenas are simple: demons seem to be attracted to some people (nobody knows why) and not to others, in fact their very presence is always due to somebody or a important phenomena......anybody as at least one person in their family who has a story to tell about the paranormal. I believe tough that there will be a time when our world and theirs will be joined by a very unnatural phenomena....they will be in plain vue for everyone...
 xNyx
Joined: 7/16/2006
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 10:02:24 AM
Wow. When will this happen Menacer?
 madfidlr
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 36
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 12:24:15 PM
It didn't...and it won't.

See my post above regarding post hoc fallacy regarding "supernatural" effects and posession. The EASIEST thing in the world to fool is the human mind and sensory organs...ask any stage magician. I am not a skeptic by nature and I do like to consider the possibility of a non-physical universe...but I will not be so arrogant as to attribute any origins, motives, effects or for that matter anything to it simply on the basis of my pre-disposed belief system.

You simply don't have enough information to know what it is that is going on and you can believe, believe Oh Yes Lord, I belieeeeeeve Hallelujah! from the mountaintops yada yada...*yawn* well you can do all that believing and arm waiving all you like but you still don't have fact or clue one what it is that is actually going on...it is the difference between to believe and to know...speculation and fact. Look them up. Many people say they "know" something in their heart...what they really need to do is look up the meaning of the word "know" again in the dictionary because what they are doing is "believing really hard".

That's why the psychiatrist, for all his blinkered worldview probably has it closer because at least if he has an open mind and a scientific approach will at least try to determine with a process of factual discovery what is wrong with someone and not start with the conclusion first.

So don't expect to be "posessed" unless you are actually part of that faith.
 LickyitySplit
Joined: 4/8/2006
Msg: 37
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/29/2006 2:39:49 PM
Mencer

The bible does not say that Demons are walking among the earth looking for inner peace. They are angels who followed Lucifer when he was condemned they chose to follow him and to serve him. Yes they are fallen angels. And the bible does not say that prayer and fasting is the best way to get rid of them. Prayer, yes, fasting no!! When Jesus casts demons out of a person and sends them into a heard of pigs there is no fasting involved he simply comands them to do so. And the bible says that we who follow Christ have the same authority over these spirits.
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 38
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/30/2006 7:54:54 AM
"the bible does not say that prayer and fasting is the best way to get rid of them. Prayer, yes, fasting no!! When Jesus casts demons out of a person and sends them into a heard of pigs there is no fasting involved he simply comands them to do so"

-Im sorry but you have to read the Bible when you have the time, because Jesus did say that fasting was important, and Jesus is a pure man, not only does he fasts but he prays all the time. I could try and reach my Bible to prove you that but it would be like insulting Jesus to to that.....

"Wow. when this will happen Mencer?

-In the days of Judgment of course, there will be a VERY big chaos in the forces of nature, alot worse than the weather this days,.Jesus constantly says that the powers of nature will be confused ....the door between Hell and earth will be opened for a time and out of it will come out a horde of horrific demons and the unbelievers and believers alike will scream with total horror...it will last a while in the last days of judgment.....all this is sait in parabols when jesus that the "stars" from heaven will fall on earth..these "stars" are fallen angels....in the apocalypse also there is aparagraph about Hell being opened and of locusts-shaped like demons
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 39
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/30/2006 8:09:13 AM
"It didn't...and it won't.

See my post above regarding post hoc fallacy regarding "supernatural" effects and posession. The EASIEST thing in the world to fool is the human mind and sensory organs...ask any stage magician. I am not a skeptic by nature and I do like to consider the possibility of a non-physical universe...but I will not be so arrogant as to attribute any origins, motives, effects or for that matter anything to it simply on the basis of my pre-disposed belief system."

dont doubt and reject the obvious.....LIFE IS NOTHING BUT SUPERNATURAL....there is no such thing as the "natural" world....life, existance, creation is a Miracle itself...if you dont see that is because you dont have the "sith sense" that believers have, you dont have the 3rd eye (I only say those word 6th sense, 3rd eye, to illustrate, Its not the occult at all). you see we dont believe..we KNOW! what is so natural about the sun??? a ball of fire that stands in total darkness?? isnt that a miracle to you? are you this blind???? look around you sleeper!as for demons you dont have a person near you (maybe you do) that attracts them or you have not been exposed to a phenomena that will attract them..or maybe you have but couldnt/cant see them....but hey, who says you wont one day? (I hope you dont!)
 madfidlr
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 40
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/30/2006 11:12:07 AM
I don't mean to harp on something but I don't think you read my reply very carefully...I will re post what I said



See my post above regarding post hoc fallacy regarding "supernatural" effects and posession. The EASIEST thing in the world to fool is the human mind and sensory organs...ask any stage magician. I am not a skeptic by nature and I do like to consider the possibility of a non-physical universe...but I will not be so arrogant as to attribute any origins, motives, effects or for that matter anything to it simply on the basis of my pre-disposed belief system.


Take note that I said I am not a skeptic by nature, in that I DO consider the possibility of a non-physical realm...which could be called supernatural...but follow the rest of the sentence.

The post hoc fallacy is one where you determine that because you were doing X then Y must be the result... I already explained how that applies in an earlier post to this case but I will do it again. It is the most common cause of problems for any religious believer because they throw out their greatest gift from the Almighty - their working rational brain.



I was praying to God because I believed a person was posessed...their behaviour ceased...therefore they were posessed and the Holy Spirit delivered them...this would be an example of a post hoc fallacy...you may believe it to be true...but you do not know it to be true and it is neither logical nor reasonable to believe it so ... you have no way to test it... you may "feel" strange sensations all through you which you ascribe to the "Holy Spirit" during such an event...but again a post hoc fallacy to actually call them such because you have no way to know what they are...there may be more of "gravy than of Grave" about them.


Those are examples of post hoc fallacy... you draw conclusion first because those are the conclusions you expect to be there but you have no evidence to lead you to those conclusions...now I realise that for many "true believers" asking you to use your brains first may be like leading a horse to water (and I apologize to any that aren't like this and find it offensive) and I have been told that "reason will never lead you to the Cross" to which I reply, Thank G-d for that. But honestly, if one of G-d's elements is truth, and you truely seek ultimate truth, then for His sake, its about time you use the tools He made to find it...and logic and reason are among those tools. I know this may be asking a lot...especially for some of the freshly born again...but it could be something to strive for.
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 41
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/30/2006 1:46:05 PM
"The post hoc fallacy is one where you determine that because you were doing X then Y must be the result... I already explained how that applies in an earlier post to this case but I will do it again. It is the most common cause of problems for any religious believer because they throw out their greatest gift from the Almighty - their working rational brain"

I read your post and I can tell you that there seems to be some doubt about faith and believing, its as if it should be seen in a scientific way....you dont believe because of the events that happen you believe because you know, its there and you feel it....not everyone.,tough,...but not everyone is very good in Math or at drawing, its a special skill and some are better at it than others altough everyone as the power to believe. Demons are real and their attacks can be very real too..people can wake up with marks on their skin, have nightmares with a recurring caracter in them, see objects move and even hear voices, its pretty creepy stuff but as I said, not everyone will experience it..its a VERY rare phenomenon, not as commun as tornadoes or earthquakes...but at some point it will become very commun... I know someone who couldnt sleep for months because she was "pushed around" by an entity in her sleep. Dont rely too much on scientific logic, this logic stops when a unknown phenomena is discovered...and "scientits" are not even able to cure the commun cold to this date!
 madfidlr
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 42
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/30/2006 2:14:01 PM
I hate to break it to you but logic does not "stop" when an unknown phenomena is discovered...in fact that is when you most need to begin applying it. The difference between not being able to cure a cold and ascribing its cause to demons is what keeps us from slipping into barbarism.

Anecdotal accounts of people's sensory experience are not, I repeat not reliable evidence of the existence of anything supernatural. I do not doubt that they had "some" kind of an experience. It may have even been an experience with the spirit world...but neither you nor I have enough or for that matter ANY data to suggest it was demons, elves, aliens or a blob of mustard or a crumb of cheese or a bit of underdone potato. Again, just because you see or feel something you do NOT KNOW. You believe and you experience...yes. But I think you need to realise that to "know" something requires a level of evidence, replicability and consistency that spiritual experiences do not provide.

Now I have to ask you, why is it so absolutely necessary that you have to know that what you are experiencing is what you are truly experiencing? Because to know, rather than to assume is to seek the truth. If your senses can be fooled, and we know they can, no matter how hard you pray, in fact because of it your consciousness will be altered, how can you trust what you are seeing to be true in the same sense a table is true?

Yeah I know, logic and reason are just a bunch of dirty lawyerin' tricks that never brought anyone to the Cross, blah blah blah... and all I am going to get back are the standard regurgitated sheeple answers here (eg. Jesus is the way the truth and the life, I KNOW in my heart, ad nauseum). It's truly a shame because I think if you really wanted to be honest with yourself and have a truly wonderous experience with your Creator, you wouldn't need to throw reason out because it makes you think A) too hard and B) for yourself.

I think some of you need to pick up a few texts on basic philosophy, including philosophy of religion, logic, epistemology and metaphysics...some of the greatest thinkers in the Christian church have even done it so don't think its beneath you born-again types.
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 43
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/30/2006 8:03:42 PM
my friend, there are miracles that logic will never be able to explain and God made it so, so that man never comes to think he is able to explain everything.....it was made on PURPOSE...science and philosophy are waisting time, they are trying to explain things with logic that can be UNDONE, they are analyzing a drop of water in a infinite ocean, philosophy is an endless questioning without answers, its the art of questioning not the art of finding an answer....the Bible is mostly a ANSWER, you can accept it or reject it but thats what it is. why do you want to travel space to other planets when the universe is INFINITE?? where would you start...where would you finish?? if the path of your journey is infinite then youd better stay where you are. everything we seek has been given to us by the prophets: life is to seek God, his wisdom. and this wisdom is accessible not through questioning but simply by obeying his commandments...thats it! there is nothing else to know...the rest is an endless activity of molecules reacting to each other! if man relies too much on science he will destroy his spiritual intelligence wich is MUCH more powerful then science: Jesus said that if a man believes it strongly enough he can order a mountain to move!
 LickyitySplit
Joined: 4/8/2006
Msg: 44
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/30/2006 9:48:00 PM
Mencer

Watch what you say there don't tell me i have never read the bible because you wouldn't know. I lived with a pastor for years hunnie i know that book pretty well and if YOU think that Jesus fasted to get rid of demons you are greatly mistaken. Don't ever accuse me of not reading the bible that's an ignorant thing to say.
 madfidlr
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 45
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/31/2006 12:23:16 AM

my friend, there are miracles that logic will never be able to explain and God made it so, so that man never comes to think he is able to explain everything.....it was made on PURPOSE...science and philosophy are waisting time, they are trying to explain things with logic that can be UNDONE, they are analyzing a drop of water in a infinite ocean, philosophy is an endless questioning without answers, its the art of questioning not the art of finding an answer....the Bible is mostly a ANSWER, you can accept it or reject it but thats what it is. why do you want to travel space to other planets when the universe is INFINITE?? where would you start...where would you finish?? if the path of your journey is infinite then youd better stay where you are. everything we seek has been given to us by the prophets: life is to seek God, his wisdom. and this wisdom is accessible not through questioning but simply by obeying his commandments...thats it! there is nothing else to know...the rest is an endless activity of molecules reacting to each other! if man relies too much on science he will destroy his spiritual intelligence wich is MUCH more powerful then science: Jesus said that if a man believes it strongly enough he can order a mountain to move!


A complete and utter load of bollocks...just as I expected you would say, logic and reason are a bunch of dirty lawyerin' tricks that won't get you nowhere.

I never once claimed that you had to have the answer to everything... that is often the reply from the "believer" when faced with someone challenging him with reason...I have seen it many times before.

You do not, sir, throw the baby out with the bath water. I never once, nor do I make the claim to understand EVERYTHING.

What I do not do is foolishly presume that I know what is going on at all when I have no actual facts to work with. I don't know if I can dumb this down any more without getting out a sketch pad and drawing a picture... This is the crux of it. I do not assume on the basis of my beliefs, no matter how deeply held that I have enough information to determine that I know what is occuring in a spiritual situation because I have little to no evidence to go on...it is experiential and subject to possible misinterpretation and belief and a thousand other niggling little things that can skew it. And if I say I know I am simply fooling myself...and anyone who says they DO KNOW is fooling themself.

If you cannot be comfortable with a bit of doubt in your reality, and have already made up your mind that you are certain of the reality of the spiritual world, simply because of your beliefs, then I would suggest to you that you are very likely already posessed by demon of Hubris. The suggested exorcism is to get an education so that you can meet the Creator in the natural world that he created, already full of plenty of miracles that you need not expect to see supernatural effects to go looking for.

The bottom line is you need to allow yourself to have some doubt...or you are a fool.
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 46
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/31/2006 6:16:46 AM
first of all there are a lot of scientific explanations that we believe as facts but we dont really have any proof: the big bang, the age of the universe and the way the dinausaurs died (to name a few)....second how much proof do you want about God? man himself could not have been created by Hazard or luck??? man can think about things that are NOT EVEN part of creation! his intelligence trancsends reality itself...no random law could create that OR IT COULD NOT BE CALLED HAZARD OR RANDOM....its obvious that we were made as the image of something much bigger (everything comes from somewhere) sometimes the explanation is obvious (very) and you dont have to spend hours under the microscope...if you need proof for everything then why dont you go over all the scientific theories that we have so far? some may be wrong after all, maybe not accurate at all....and when they are right its ALWAYS by a 0,0000005st of decimals, so its never accurate...

a child knows his father and mother....does he have to throw them under a microscope to prove they really were his parents?? maybe we should study everything to prove it! lol!
 Titanvalley
Joined: 11/5/2004
Msg: 47
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/31/2006 6:51:54 AM
I was at a lively youthful church service, and three teen girls went forward to the guest prayer excited. The prayer had enthusiatic rapport and was very confident and friendly. The girls named a spirit, and the air was one of confidence. He cast it out in a few seconds and they cheered.

Only error I think was I didn't hear it was commanded to remain away, typical of traveling evangelists over pastors who know the flock long practice.
 ashley1861
Joined: 11/6/2004
Msg: 48
view profile
History
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/31/2006 8:57:08 AM
I don't know how much of a person a 'demon' can possess against that person's will. But I do know that I have experienced a person who was certainly not a normal, nice guy...
eyes red, physically hurting me, mentally trying to break me down. Many people died mysterious deaths around this person. He tried to kill me and did things I won't go into here.

I give God credit for giving me some sort of invisible shield against said person. The shield of spiritual strength.
I also thank God for my mom who taught me by her biatchiness to have the ability to let some crap go in one of my ears and out the other without sticking around in the middle.
I am very forgiving; but not forgetful.

Yes, some people are evil.... but possessed (by the devil) beyond their control - the jury is still out. I think our words and actions can be self controlled, except in cases where our brain is damaged.
 madfidlr
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 49
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/31/2006 12:19:21 PM

first of all there are a lot of scientific explanations that we believe as facts but we dont really have any proof: the big bang, the age of the universe and the way the dinausaurs died (to name a few)....second how much proof do you want about God? man himself could not have been created by Hazard or luck??? man can think about things that are NOT EVEN part of creation! his intelligence trancsends reality itself...no random law could create that OR IT COULD NOT BE CALLED HAZARD OR RANDOM....its obvious that we were made as the image of something much bigger (everything comes from somewhere) sometimes the explanation is obvious (very) and you dont have to spend hours under the microscope...if you need proof for everything then why dont you go over all the scientific theories that we have so far? some may be wrong after all, maybe not accurate at all....and when they are right its ALWAYS by a 0,0000005st of decimals, so its never accurate...

a child knows his father and mother....does he have to throw them under a microscope to prove they really were his parents?? maybe we should study everything to prove it! lol!


You keep harping on about proof of God and that's not what we are talking about...it may lead back to that but I am not making such a claim and have no intention of doing so. We are talking about people's beliefs in demonic posession and exorcism and I was suggesting that because of their pre-existing beliefs as opposed to actual facts they may be making a post hoc fallacy about what may be actually occuring to such a person.

Now your gross misunderstanding of science aside, you still don't get the point that I have repeatedly said that you don't throw out the pursuit of reason and logic when it is available to you and simply blindly embrace faith because it makes you feel good and is a sop to your ego. That's ok, one more sheeple will make no difference to the world at large. Just do us a favour and don't try and teach science...there is overwhelming evidence to show the age of the universe, the likelihood of a Big Bang is far greater than any other prevailing theory - but a good scientist, unlike a true-believer, keeps his mind open to other possibilities, and as to the rest of your "intelligent design musings" that belongs in another thread.

We were talking about how a post hoc fallacy can be made by a believer. You still haven't presented one cogent reply. I don't expect one to be forthcoming so I guess you can resume your regularly scheduled Bible-school ramble.
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 50
Demonic Posession and Exorcism
Posted: 7/31/2006 2:27:23 PM
"We were talking about how a post hoc fallacy can be made by a believer. You still haven't presented one cogent reply. I don't expect one to be forthcoming so I guess you can resume your regularly scheduled Bible-school ramble"

you are right this conversation is not going far because, you have to admit it, you are a bit stubborned in your Post Hoc rational theory.......demons possession is real and its not a "visual mistake" this spirits do exist they are beings "not special effects" it doesnt happen to bad people only everyone, even atheists and non-believers are at risk but its very ,very rare and it doesnt happen only in remote Islands either...its just that we cant proove their existance scientificly today....its not because you havent experienced anything in your life that you can say that people mistakes everything for being supernatural, I told you before the WORLD ITSELF is supernatural...demons are being like insects or animals but we cant see them with our eyes, they are called demons because they are outcasts spirits who are most often up to no good...most spirits were made to guide humans but some chose their own path..some even chose to abandon their "normal habitat"...but of course all this make sense if you are a believer.....
you want proof about demons?: well for one thing, they are attracted by people who keep talking about them..(its very serious stuff)..so if you indulge long enough in the subject I would be very surprised if you dont experience it in your life! (but obviously its NOT something you should wish for)......
if you dont believe in God nothing makes sense...so unfortunately for you, if you want to understant ANYTHING at all you have to believe first...I dont care how good scientist are they cant tell you why you exist!
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