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 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 76
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?Page 9 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Hey....OP

What I meant before when I suggested that this thread may cause problems is because of this "sister" thread here http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts165071.aspx

That thread has the same topic, same questions, ideas etc.
 dancingshadowhawk
Joined: 8/31/2006
Msg: 80
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/9/2006 11:34:29 PM
Thank you my sister !
Bright Blessings
 Huggablehottie
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 82
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/15/2006 8:51:18 AM
It is not realistic to say that religion should not be in the public sector.
I did not read the posts, but I am sure someone already mentioned that
our country was founded on Christianity, and also Christian values helped
Bush get into office.
As far as people imposing their religion on me, I don't like it if they do not
know how to take NO for an answer.
 lady_us
Joined: 4/14/2005
Msg: 84
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/15/2006 8:50:00 PM
It is a fact that the US was founded on Christian principles such as the 10 commandments. Now, years later, the newcomers who don't beleive in these foundations have stolen the country from our forefathers. When I came to the US from Europe when I was a little girl, the bible was still being taught in school and we had general social responsibiltiy and taboos. Those taboos kept the innocence of the population. Now, because of the secular fundamentalists our crime rate is extremly high and violence and social illness is rampant. Right and wrong do not exist anymore in this "if it feels good, do it" culture.

Well as a mother who tried my hardest to teach my daughter right from wrong, I was oppressed. My daughter learned in the public school system that there is no right and wrong. Everything is relative these days. Well, thanks to the secular fundamentalists, my daughter is totally confused and has destroyed her life from 12 years old.
I am not a Christian fundamentalist myself, but I beleive that if there is no authority and everything is relative, then chaos and anarchy is the result.

If you want more violence, sexual predators, and perversion, high divorce rates, cheating and lying, just keep it up.

When we stray to far from our roots, it brings confusion and in the end, war.

Take it from a new immigrant to the US......cutting your roots leads to chaos and confusion, and ultimatley war.

But I guess not alot of people would understand that, their families came to the US centuries ago.....and they have had it good the last years....
 lady_us
Joined: 4/14/2005
Msg: 86
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/17/2006 6:38:17 AM
You would not happen to be biased or anything would you?

As a recent european immigrant myself and a refugee from injustice in the previous countries my family lived in, I respect the laws of the US and the traditional culture of those who came before me.

That is the key, respect those who came before us and join them instead of fighting with them.

Yes, church and religion are separate here in the US but that doesn't mean those of a different religion or ethnic group has the right to be politically militant against the majority which throughout history is the backbone of the US. Stop taking advantage of those law abiding, tax paying senior americans who were the ones who fought for your freedom.

I happen to respect them even though I am a bit different from them.

 lady_us
Joined: 4/14/2005
Msg: 87
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/18/2006 1:37:54 PM
alaska, that would be because the liberal left and the ACLU have dominated the social culture here in the last 30 years. Damn those hippies.........they graduated from college and got into positions of power and forced their sex, drugs and rock and roll attitudes upon the majority of the Christians in the US and for that matter, in the west. So here we go the minority dominating and oppressiong the majority. Excessive freedom at all costs of the larger community was packaged and forcefully taught at all our learning institutions as well as public policy and corporations -- law firms as well.

Shame on them for the social diseases......permeating the whole west and their attempts to destroy Christians.

 lady_us
Joined: 4/14/2005
Msg: 88
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/20/2006 7:02:24 PM
Sounds like those who have an "alternative" lifestyle or alot of skeltatons in their closets are why their agenda is to oppress the Christians in the west. Otherwise I would assume they would be indifferent to the subject.

Oh those skelatons.......morals and values are haunting them. I wonder if they can sleep at night......guilt must be eating them alive and the only way to resovle their misdees are to ostricize the morality of their ancestors.

Well, I have alot of skelatons in my closet too, but I have fought my demons and changed my ways and realized that there are just some things in life that are productive and some things that are unproductive. Time to face the demons world.
 dogar2007
Joined: 5/24/2006
Msg: 89
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/24/2006 8:17:32 AM
This for ladyus:

You say this nation was "founded on Christian values"?

Okay, then all biases aside - I would be happy for you to demonstrate this to me. Find me one single reference to the Bible, Jesus, or "christian values" in our Constitution or Bill of Rights, written by these "God-fearing" founding fathers.

We are not "founded on Christian values" just because some people like to keep saying it.

If I can get a bunch of people to go on TV talk shows and say "there is no gravity" a million times, that wouldn't make it true, would it Ladyus?
 dogar2007
Joined: 5/24/2006
Msg: 90
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/24/2006 3:23:34 PM
Thanks for the input, but I wasn't talking about President Bush or war. I was just raising the question of where does this stuff come from about the US being "founded as a Christian nation". People quote this every day as if it is a proven fact, like the existence of air or gravity.

What is the historical basis for this? I have asked this question many times, and nobody has ever been able to give me a direct answer such as

***James Madison said in a letter to Alexander Hamilton in 1785 that "our nation is founded upon Christian principles, embodied in our Constitution". It is in the Library of Congress.***

Why has nobody ever given me such a historical source? Because the founding fathers never made any such claim!

They KNEW the dangers of bringing religion into government to create an all-powerful despotism that none could dare speak out against. They were educated men who knew the horrific things that had been done in their own ancestral Europe when kings and popes (politics and religion) got together. These men were very suspicious of centralized authority, after having just fought a secular despot, King George III. There is no way these same men would have endorsed organized religion's influence on government.

To claim they acted in such a self-contradictory fashion is just silly.
 dogar2007
Joined: 5/24/2006
Msg: 91
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/24/2006 4:13:43 PM
1st - Don Feder, Benjamin Hart, and Tim LaHaye did not write our constitution.

2nd - secular humanism is a social philosophy, but it is not a religion

3rd - Not that it is anybody's business, but I do happen to believe in God. I am not an atheist. But I'm not a Christian, either.

4th - I am not saying the founding fathers were or were not christians on an individual basis. That is not my point.

However, if they wanted Christianity to be a guiding influence in our government policies, they were pretty conspicuous about not mentioning that.

4th - The same text in Romans that you mention was used by the Christian Church for centuries to justify what they called "the divine right of kings", calling upon their parishioners to be subject to their sovereign no matter how unjust he might seem, and let God deal with the sovereign. If Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Hancock had listened to that, there would have been no American Revolution at all, and this conversation would not be occuring.
 Etownboy79
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 96
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 9/24/2006 7:07:09 PM

In a pluralistic society made up of many beliefs and values (from atheists to wiccans, buddists to hindu's, to the whole ranges of liberal to conservative christians) do christians (or any religious group for that matter ) have the right to impose (through the use of the political process) their religious views, values, and behaviors on the larger society....???


I'm not sure if it's been said yet, but I'll offer my two cents anyway.

Yes. Why shouldn't ANY religion have the ability and freedom to peddle their beliefs? To deny them the right to do so is a serious violation of the 'free speech' laws. That being said, you have the equal right to tell those thumpers where to stick it if you don't want to be "enlightened".

I believe it is every religions goal to recruit as many followers as possible, since there is power in numbers. Any means necessary is fine, as long as I'm not forced to do anything I don't want to. If any particular religion found a way to put up a billboard advertising their greatness on every street corner, I'd silently congratulate them for their ingenuity, but that does not mean they are "imposing" on me or that I HAVE to follow their teachings.

Short and Sweet: Yes. Everyone, be it a religious faculty or otherwise, has the right to self-advertisment for the purpose of recruiting.
 darkonc
Joined: 5/20/2006
Msg: 102
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Nothing special about christians here.
Posted: 9/30/2006 9:28:45 AM
It's more an issue in the space of religion.

Religion is a thing mostly of belief, and people like to know that what they believe is true. One way to 'prove' that what you believe is true is to have everybody around you believing the same thing. This is not a problem in and of itself.

The problem arises when some people take the shortcut of attempting to force the people around them to believe what they believe (e.g. at gunpoint or by law). When you have two people of opposing beliefs trying to do this in th esame area, then you can end up at risk of a religious war.

This problem doesn't even limit itself to religion. It can happen with just about any issue of opinion... Politics, choice of operating system, whatever.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 104
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 3/18/2009 8:43:19 AM

In a pluralistic society made up of many beliefs and values (from atheists to wiccans, buddists to hindu's, to the whole ranges of liberal to conservative christians) do christians (or any religious group for that matter ) have the right to impose (through the use of the political process) their religious views, values, and behaviors on the larger society....???
No more, no less, than atheists have the right to impose (through the use of the political process) their views, values, and behaviours on the larger society.

For instance, both the banning of the teaching of creationism, and the forcing of the teaching of evolution, in all state schools, was a direct result of atheists imposing their views, and values, on the larger society, through the use of one of the arms of the political process, the judicial process. If this is legal, then so is anything that religious groups do using the political process. Anything else would be a dictatorship, and an oppression of the people.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 105
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 3/20/2009 7:39:41 AM
RE Msg: 247 by Bright1Raziel:
Personaly, I would like to see Sharia law passed as legal in the UK. Simply because it would free up the courts a great deal. Sharia law runs along side the state law and is ussed to deal with personal claims rather than maters of state justice. So someone who was caught stealing would go to a state judiciary to be tried, but someone who had a personal injury claim against, could CHOOSE to go to Sharia court (if both parties agrea).
You might be interested to know that there are Jewish courts, Beth Din, that already do this within the Orthodox Jewish community, for civil cases, and only where both parties agree. If either party is unsatisfied with the verdict, they still have the option of pursuing the matter through the government courts, because such decisions are not legally binding, but are merely voluntary, acting as arbitrators and mediators, which are acceptable in any potential court case. This is very useful, because although they are booked up solid, they can still be quicker to get your case heard than in government courts, and there is an emphasis on proper procedure, logic, and speed, so many cases can get settled that same day, with very sound decisions, without having to drag on for years, as they can do in civil cases in normal courts.

RE Msg: 248 by chelloveck:
This may sound very reasonable.......BUT......when Sharia Law IS the state law, the option to choose the Sharia road to "justice" is not really much of an option.
I think you are now advocating an "all-or-nothing" approach, that throws the baby out with the bathwater. Certainly I have been informed by professionals that such thinking is very ill-advised, as it leads to extremes of thinking that result in irrational conclusions.

In a theocratic state....a "personal injury suit" such as adultery (the injured party not being the penetrator or the penetrated, but one who has an "honour" interest in the penetrated), may result,
Certainly, if "honour" issues could be settled by Sharia law, it could easily result in a lot less of these "honour" killings that happen in the UK.

in the case of rape, in a capital conviction for both the perpetrator AND the victim, not the prosecutorial litigant, on not much evidence at all.
Equally, there is no need at all to allow Sharia law to result in capital convictions, as limits can be placed on it, and I am sure that as Bright1Raziel stated this would only be for CIVIL cases, and ONLY if both parties agreed, this doesn't have to be a problem, not unless you CHOOSE to make it one. Why break something that doesn't need fixing?

I say, keep religious authority out of politics AND the law. Who would want a system of civil law and cannon law being administered in tandem?
Actually, chelloveck, this already exists in the UK. The Chancery Courts are a descendant of the Church Courts. The laws of Equity, or "fair play", are equally descended from Church law, not from the common law of the King and the people. An example of this is the law of "Uses". In common law, if you have a tenant, and you sell your house, the tenant has absolutely no rights of use at all. The new owner can just kick him out. Equity demands that he has certain rights as a tenant to remain, and even if the new owner is not required to keep him on, then he must be given a fair time to find another place to live, a minimum of 2 months, and then only once proper written request for termination of the existing tenancy has been made. This is all down to Equity, the laws of the Chancery, as this was simply not recognised in the main courts. Equally, as Canadian, Australian and American law all owe much to British law, being descended in major part from British law, it is entirely conceivable that the rights of tenants would simply not exist in the countries of the UK, Canada, Australia, and America, if not for the merging of common law and church law, and the acceptance of church law within our laws.

......I would suggest that the Theo legals will want to be having their paws not only on trivial matters....but on issues that the religious feel to be very important to them....i.e. sexual and reproductive morality, blasphemy, heresy etc etc etc.

Oh yeah, lets take the legal system back to the Middle ages....where clergymen can seek protection from the civil law by claiming benefit of clergy. That would work nicely for paedophile priests.
You seem to be really acting like you are afraid that if your government is in any way flexible, that it will fall completely. That's not a strong government, but a very weak one, and a very weak government is bound to fall, and is bound to bow to pressure from corporate corruption. If you really believe in your government and your legal system, then you wouldn't fear it being open to new possibilities that might help it serve justice more effectively and speedily, because right now, many people have an awful time of it in the government courts, and especially rape victims.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 107
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 3/28/2009 7:56:37 PM
RE Msg: 252 by Settleforthis:
"For instance, both the banning of the teaching of creationism, and the forcing of the teaching of evolution, in all state schools, was a direct result of atheists imposing their views, and values, on the larger society, through the use of one of the arms of the political process, the judicial process. If this is legal, then so is anything that religious groups do using the political process. Anything else would be a dictatorship, and an oppression of the people."-Scorpion

How perfectly absurd.

-The teaching of evolution was brought forward by atheists and theists alike. You do not need to be an atheist to believe the Theory of Evolution. Some may argue that, as a whole, people who consider themselves to be atheists are more likely to believe in the ToE than non-atheists......so what? You don't need to believe in the ToE to be an atheist (the only pre-requisite it that you lack a belief in god).
You don't need to be an atheist to believe in any scientific theory. But to believe that it should be described in manners that aren't necessary to conclude from the evidence, and that project certain types of political views and certain types of religious/non-religious and theistic/atheistic views, distorts what you can learn from it, as it mixes fact with fiction, and the line between truth and political posturing becomes blurred. After a while of that blurring, you can end up with people calling for enforced sterilisation.

Also, atheists are not and have not been forcing the teaching of evolution. The 'forcing', as you call it, is being done by people who believe the ToE to currently be the best explanation for how life developed on our planet (not to mention the basis for many if not most of the medical / biological advancements over the past 100+ years). If some or even most of the ToE supporters happen to be atheists, this fact is tangential at best (see the above paragraph).
Quantum Theory is the best explanation for how our entire universe works, and that includes how life developed on our planet, not to mention that everything from the computer chip in 99% of devices, to microwave ovens, mobile phones, LCDs, and just about 99% of modern advancements in almost every field in the last 100 years, are completely based on it. But you'd be very hard put to find anyone in a high school, or even in a university, who can explain it to you. Yet, for something that impacts 1/100th of our lives at the very most by comparison, practically every kid in schools learns evolution. I just don't see why, if 2 theories are considered valuable, and one is many more times useful than the other, to explain, and to help us, that the one which is far less useful is taught to everyone, and the one which is far more useful is just left for the tiny monority who take Physics as a university degree.

Now, as to atheists being responsible for the 'banning' of the teaching of creationism.......
Creationism HAS NOT been banned (at least in the USA). It is no longer taught in science class, but I work in schools currently where there are comparative religion classes. Guess what these classes teach? They teach many of the different creationist versions of how life started / developed on our planet.

If you want to have a discussion on why creationism is no longer taught in 'science' class, then feel free to make a new thread because the topic is just too broad. But again, there are many people who believe in BOTH creationism and evolution. They are not mutually exclusive, and there are plenty of parents that are not atheists who are opposed to public schools teaching their children religious stories in a science classroom. Their reasons are many and varied, but obviously none of them can base their objections on 'atheism' as they are not atheists.....
Again, I am not suggesting that just because creationism is not automatically taught in a school setting, that this is something evil. What I am suggesting, is that the way creationism is portrayed, is used as a political tool, to ridicule the views of religious people, in particular when they come into disagreements with popular scientific views, as a means to give such popular scientific views an air of unquestionable credibility. That allows governments and businesses to make any claims they want, and to do anything they want, simply by getting a scientist to state that he has found evidence that supports their claims and their actions. Science allows for multiple studies that contradict each other, and so just because studies are supported, that doesn't mean you should accept them. But that is not how science is portrayed to the public, and most people don't really understand that just because a study comes out and says that something is true, doesn't mean that study is telling us anything useful or reliable at all. IMHO, most people really think scientists have the same infallible reliability as the Pope was supposed to in the Middle Ages. That gives anyone who uses science as a tool of leverage, an incredibly unfair amount of power, bordering on the absolute, and as has been stated often, absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

There is no inherent problem in not teaching creationism within schools, and there is no inherent problem in teaching evolution in schools, as long as science is not the tool of governments and businesses. But it is, and that means bias, and we have to be triply careful that it isn't being used to make our kids into good little consumers, who will buy what businesses want them to, get themselves in major debt, and then go and shoot some Iranians when they grow up, because some scientist claims that Iran can shoot WMDs at the US in 45 minutes. That's basically what happened in the UK, and the only scientist to state that it was BS, and the government KNEW it was BS, ended up dead, and was declared a suicide, even though the ambulance people on the scene stated it was physically impossible for it to be suicide. When scientists who speak against that tools of government are silenced, one gets very, very worried for the future of truth in science.

I may be speaking somewhat pessimistically, and so you can call me overly pessimistic if you want. But more and more people in the UK are finding things have been progressively getting worse in terms of reliability within science and medicine, to such an extent, that more and more people in the UK, no longer trust scientists or doctors, unless they know them personally, or they are stating things that have been tested by so many laypeople, that it is almost common knowledge. This lack of trust within establishment science and medicine, is not a paranoia. It's a genuine dissatisfaction within the world, and it is building.

Deal with it, or don't deal with it, makes no difference to the rest of the world. It only makes a difference if these problems get sorted out. Right now, people are being told to ignore what they find, and they can only do that for so long, until their own harsh long experience tells them they can no longer afford to do that.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 108
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 3/29/2009 6:50:12 AM
RE msg 254 by Settleforthis:

1) I don't think we are going to agree at all over this. Not that we couldn't, but because we are talking about 2 different things, with 2 different viewpoints. You appear to me, to think that I think atheism is evil, and are arguing that it is not. I am saying that atheism is being corrupted within our present time, by market forces, and political pundits, to include subliminal messages within it, much like TV programmes that have product placement. You appear to me, to not see such corruption of ideologies withing our society, while I see it regularly, in everything from the Christian right, to the most atheist left. It is these 2 issues that I think we argue on. The first is whether or not we can agree to argue about the same issue. The second is whether or not we agree in our observations, which is either we both agree, or we don't. The rest is just a follow-on from that. So there is not much from what I can see, to argue about. Either we agree, or we don't.

2) Subjects tend to be taught in terms of how they were developed chronologically, rather than the best methods to understand them. Quantum Theory was developed after most of Physics was formalised in mathematical formula. Evolution was developed while biology was still being understood in a naturalistic perspective. But subjects are misleading. Subjects that are mathematically formalised, are treated so, because they are so well understood, that they can be quantified so accurately. Subjects that are not mathematically formalised, are not so formulated, because we still lack the clarity of understanding that allows them to be quantified accurately. So, paradoxically, the subjects that are least mathematical, are the very subjects that require deep maths to understand them properly, and subjects that are most mathematical, are subjects that can be easily understood without maths, precisely because we understand them so well. Evolution is a subject that is not quantified, and thus needs maths to be applied to it, to understand it properly. Quantum Theory is the reverse. We understand it mathematically, and so, we understand it better, and so it can be understood easily without maths. But, if we need to refer to the maths to explain more advanced aspects better, we can.

3) The above means that we can quantify more applications of Quantum Theory, because we have that more accurate understanding of it. Evolution is tempting to suppose it offers more possibilities, because we don't have that quantification. But that lack of quantification means that we don't even know what we can understand and accomplish with evolution. Again, paradoxically, it is evolution's lack of quantification that makes it look like it could solve so much, but what makes it look so useful, is precisely that which makes it less useful to us.

4) I do not contend that creationism is necesarily a subject that must be taught. But there has to be a give and take in everything, for people to get along. I may be entirely correct in that a raw vegetable diet is far healthier than a heavily meat-laden diet. But if my views always hold sway, it will lead to conflict, simply because the other person is not treated as an equal, but as a slave. In a pluralistic culture of Christians and atheists, both sides' opinions must be shown to be respected, by both sides. Lack of consideration for others' views, leads to intolerance, and polarisation, and that is what we see.

5) We need to realise that we are living in a pluralistic society, not a society where because we think we are in the right, that we have the right to demand our views take precedence over everyone else's. We also need to realise that knowledge is the opposite of how it appears to us. That which we understand the easiest, and seems to offer us the most, is that which we generally understand the least, and offers us the least, and that which seems over-laden with formulae, is so, precisely because we understand it the best, and offers us the most usefulness.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 109
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 3/29/2009 3:29:22 PM
RE Msg: 256 by Settleforthis:

I agree that atheism is not evil in itself. But, like religion, it can be used as a rationalisation. As long as we are aware of those rationalisations, and are vigilant against them, then it can be a great boon, like a driver who watches the road. But, like a driver who takes his eyes off the road and kills someone, those of us who are atheists, and those of us who are theists, can forget to be vigilant, can make our own rationalisations, and end up thinking that it is our solemn duty to do things that are really in truth oppressive of others. That is true of anything, of religions, of atheism, of creationism, of evolution, of anything. All I hope, is that everyone recognises that we need to be vigilant against our rationalisations, and remembers to always think that when we criticise others, we may truly be the ones at fault.
 WhoisRonPaul
Joined: 2/2/2008
Msg: 110
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 4/20/2009 5:06:30 PM
Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through Him! Dont die in your sins or you will burn in hell for eternity....This is a warning because I care for all of your souls....
 JP1111
Joined: 4/13/2008
Msg: 115
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 6/19/2011 2:01:50 PM

DO THEY HAVE THE RIGHT?


Well, I would say yes as, that would fall under freedome of speech. Do we actually listen? Now that's a whole other question.

I know that for myself, I like to silence a Jehova's wintess by asking them HOW we know that our God is THE God of the universe. If you think about it, we know that there are other life forms on other planets and they probably have their own interpretation of who Gos is, right? So what id those two are VERY different? Who's right?

By the time we talk about stuff the cannot be proven, my bus has arrivied abd I leave at least knowing that I had managed to silence him for 5 min!
 Soul Union
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 117
Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 4/12/2013 12:17:18 AM

I have the right to believe that potatoes are actually Gods who have come down to earth to be among us. --- jjl9067


You have already identified 'potatoes,' so how can you confuse them with gods? Someone like you wouldn't do that, not someone so intelligent and philosophising away here like Socrates for our enlightenment.

Leave the potatoes alone. They are not doing you any harm.


Best wishes
Peter
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 118
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 4/24/2013 12:31:39 AM
no.


and
which Christians?

its really about finding truth, do it personally.

the world is not run theoretically this time.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 119
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Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 7/11/2014 1:54:15 PM
Theocraticly, is the word I meant.

The idea of evolution shouldn't be imposed either, especially on gullible children.
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