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Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 42
What is the Church doing wrong?Page 4 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
first, sorry about the sp. mistakes. property should be proper & noble should be bible. i was using my phone.
yes, i believe in the whole bible.
nice to see someone looking into things. like the names of deity. yes, elohim is plural, but you have to realize that it is plural for eloah, another word applied to power increate, derived from the root word el, (power) eloah signifies a powerful or mighty one. in regard to the doctrine of God manifestation, it signifies one who is made strong by Divine power (El). God is Himself Eloah, or a Mighty One, and so are the angels who manifest His power. This idea is expressed in the words of Isaiah 44:8 "Exists there an Eloah without Me. Yea, there is no rock (metaphor for power), I know not any" & Ps. 18:31 David says "Who is Eloah without Yahweh?"
Elohim is the plural of Eloah, therefore signifying Mighty ones. In the first 2 chapters of Genesis, it is rendered by the word "God", but in chapter 3:5, it is translated "gods" In Gen: 31:30, 32,: 35:2, 4, & many other places it is used in relation to idols, not because they were objects of real power, but because they were so esteemed by their worshippers.
In Ps. 8:5, Elohim has been rendered "angels", and this translation is endorsed by Paul in Hebrews 2:7. this says that the term "God" can apply to those heavenly beings who manifest the attributes of the great Increate. So when God says Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen. 1: 26), it relates to the angels during the work of creation.
In exodus 21:6, 22:8,9,22,28. Elohim has been rendered "judges". They shall bring him unto the judges.(Elohim) They are described as such because they judged on behalf of Yahweh, & with His authority.. Another example is in Gen 3:5, Ye shall be as God. In revised version, in exodus, it says His master shall bring him unto God. In Exodus 7:1, God says, i have made thee god to Pharaoh. as he acted with Divine authority & power before the King of Egypt.
Wherever God, gods appear in the OT, it is usually Elohim.
I like to go by the KJ version, just because i like the style of writing, & yes, that is why we have to question doctrine, & test the words. Ps. 39. It is the glory of elohim to conceal a word, but it is the glory of kings to search out the word. (Solomon)
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 43
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/3/2012 3:20:12 PM
The Spirit gifts were used by Jesus, & the apostles, but for now have been withdrawn 1 Cor. 12: 9, 10. 1Cor. 13:8-12.
It says that false prophets would also show great signs & wonders Matt24.
Try the spirits 1Jn 4:1.... When Jesus returns to the earth, those powers will be used again.... I think what you are saying is that these should be in our laws of nature. Actually i've watched a lot of documentaries on the different "miracles" & they showed how they were actually done using the laws of nature, but i'm not sure about that.
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 44
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/4/2012 5:44:55 AM
^^ I'm curious too!


yes, elohim is plural, but you have to realize that it is plural for eloah, another word applied to power increate, derived from the root word el, (power) eloah signifies a powerful or mighty one.
Mighty ONE you say? So whose image is this passage referring to then:

Gen 1:24-31 "Let us make man in OUR image..."

I like to go by the KJ version
Do you consider yourself a 'king james onlyist'?

The king james version has many, many problems. Just google 'problems with the king james version' or some form of that and you will receive reams of information. Many of them from some strong christians......

nice to see someone looking into things.
Let's see if that goes both ways ;)

And I have another question.. how are we to verify which scripture is accurate?

Okay.. two.. are you aware of which are the oldest copies of the old testament?
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 45
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/4/2012 7:55:16 AM

If people would actually read it for themselves they would find that the old testament stories were TRUE based on historical evidence,...

A lie mixed in with truth is much like rat poison, which contains 99% good food and 1% poison - its that 1% of poison (or lie) that will kill you!
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 46
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/5/2012 2:55:50 PM
Some is actual, some is literal, but it will tell you, take for instance, a favourite with most churches.
Isa.14 Take up a proverb against the king of babylon; they only will tell you vs. 12 - about lucifer, but if you read the whole chapter, you will see that it is talking about the king of babylon.vs. 4.
And Ezek28. vs.13. If you read from vs. 1 right through, you will see that they are talking about the prince of Tyrus. & if you look further, you will see that Hiram, King of Tyre was friends with Solomon, King of Israel, & they made a league, or a treaty together. 1 Kings5. so, when you read this, is it actually talking about some devil. I'd say no. It isn't.
Did God stop time, well, it says He did, how this was done, it may have been natural, I don't know. Unless someone shows me that it's not true I believe it.
About the talking donkey, 2Peter2:16 confirms this, from the NT. It says it spoke with a man's voice. I think this would be possible with God. The serpent spoke also.
The strange laws in Leviticus? Galatians(NT) explains a bit about what they were for. vs. 24. The law was their schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ. They were God's chosen people, & I'd say that these laws also would help them to stay away from other nations & their beliefs. Some of the jews today still try to keep these laws. I do know that circumcision represented cutting off of the sins of the flesh, or following God's ways. Col2:11, Rom.2:25-29, Gal 5:6. & Gal5:8.
Pharoah's heart, I'd say was wicked. In Daniel 4:32 - most high ruleth in the kingdom of men & gives it to whomsoever he will. Also Romans 9. Read it all, but it tells you about Pharoah in vs. 17, the rest shows you that he rules in the kingdoms of men. In Daniel, he even calls Nebuchadrezzar, king of Babylon, his servant. In Dan. 4:17 the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, & giveth it to whomsoever he will, & setteth up over it the basest of men. In Dan:5:21 he makes Nebuchadrezzar's heart like the beasts, until he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, & He appoints over it whomsoever He will. Also Jer. 18:5-11, Amos 1:8, Zeph 2:5, Acts 12:21-23 & also the dreams that King Nebuchadrezzar saw regarding all the kingdoms on the earth, Babylon, Persian, Grecian, Roman, it shows He rules in the kingdoms of men & sets them up & brings them down. Try googling "Does God rule in the kingdoms of men"
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 47
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/5/2012 3:01:19 PM

Did God stop time, well, it says He did, how this was done, it may have been natural, I don't know. Unless someone shows me that it's not true I believe it.

This just in, Unicorns are real unless proved they are not.
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 48
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/5/2012 3:03:04 PM
"Let us make man in our image". As I explained earlier, it is Elohim.
KJV - Well, I will have to thank-you for pointing this out to me, because I did look into this, & I found these things-
that Acts 9:6 is not in the Diaglott, Jn. 5:4 is an addition to original,
1Jn.5:7-8, most of it has been inserted (this I knew before, but I had forgot & it was inserted by those believing in the trinity.
& Acts 8:15,16 should read it, not Him. In this you can see that Holy Spirit is it, not He.
Also, the differences that I already knew, but they have not changed the wording & will change doctrines if used the way it should be is:
Satan - means adversary. In Matt.16:23, Jesus calls Peter satan, why, because he savoured not the things of God but of men. The popular satan is more like the greek god pan
Soul means life
Devil means false accuser, lier, thief
hell means grave
The thing with the KJV is that you can look up those words in the diaglott, or a concordance, so if you think anything isn't right you can go to that. I guess i'm just used to it.

In the first few centuries, an apostacy was happening & would get worse. acts 20:29-30, 2thess.2,3-7, 1Tim4:1-3, 2 Tim:4:3-4, 2 Thess. 2:11, 2 Thess.2:7-8,

Gal 1:9 "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Yes, the bible has been corrupted, to teach doctrine that isn't true, but we are supposed to be like the bereans & search them out.
The diaglott is supposed to be original, the scribes that wrote dictated the OT supposedly did so very carefully. I look at this way, it should all make sense. God wouldn't just have nothing out there for us. when i started looking into things, i got mad, especially at my priest brother in law, who wouldn't even give me answers.
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 49
view profile
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/5/2012 9:33:09 PM
people are believing what others are telling them. [tisk, tisk!]

the criteria for most seems to be "as long as it's what I think is right and what I want to believe", where as no one should believe anything that they haven't researched for themselves.
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 50
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 1/30/2012 3:08:45 PM

I think you'll find that I have and will always "back up" my rejection of falsehoods towards Christianity with direct quotations from the Bible, chapter and verse.

If you proof is something that is false, then you have no proof.
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 51
view profile
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/1/2012 10:23:38 PM
Jesus said to the one thief:

Luke 23:43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”


And he said to him: “Truly I tell you, today You will be with me in Paradise."

see the big difference in meaning there?

another one is whether jesus is one and the same as god, or also a god.

the majority of people threw the past, up until the quite recent few hundred years, couldn't even read.
and also bibles were, I think, kept from us.
the printing press had something to do with it too.

So, I believe people had to, and are capable of doing some figuring out of these truths in their own minds.
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 52
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/6/2012 9:25:14 AM
If I didn't know what I know, & was looking for a religion, I would probably be Baha'i, since I believe in all their ethics, except that all religions come from God.
I don't think Nimrod had anything to do with God, he thought he was god, so did the greeks, pharoahs, romans, even down to our time, when Constantine squinted into the sun & saw a cross, (by the way was originally a pagan cross reflecting the winter solstace, summer solstace, spring & summer equinox), & he changed all the pagan gods into christian gods. We even have Peter at the vatican (who is actually Jupiter, god of sky & thunder), whose toes have been kissed so much that the brass has worn away. Where did the popes garments come from. & all the rituals they do.
I agree with the Baha'i faith that, quote "we must investigate for ourselves, without preconceptions". Now most of us in Canada at least are allowed to do this, although their are still many that are forbidden. My belief is that if your heart is right, really right, you will find. Your life may be in danger, yes. We are so fortunate in our world to have that opportunity to do so. We don't appreciate it.
If man did not take up sword against man, we would not have spiritual problems, we would fight with the word, as we are doing so now.
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 53
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/6/2012 10:17:20 AM
Why I Believe the Bible
The Bible is a remarkable collection of books. It contains huge amounts of evidence that it was written under inspiration by God. Here are just two brief examples.
There are many prophecies in the Bible, and they are there for a reason - to show us that the Bible was written by God. Consider the history of the Jews. Once they lived in Israel. Then the land was invaded and the Jews were dispersed for nearly 2000 years. Despite their subsequent persecution they were never destroyed. Then they began to return to the land of Israel. Whatever your feelings about the rights and wrongs of that branch of Middle Eastern politics you cannot doubt that Jewish history has been remarkable. It is even more remarkable when you consider that all of their history was recorded in advance in the Bible.
Before entering the Land of Israel the Children of Israel (as the Jews are sometimes called) were told that if they were obedient they would live in the land in peace and prosperity. If they were disobedient, however, "the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other" (Deuteronomy 28:64). Despite being scattered they would never be completely destroyed: " Though I make full end of all nations where I have scattered you, yet I will not make a complete end of you"

Eventually the Jews were to be regathered and returned to Israel: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel" (Ezekiel 11:17). Ezekiel 37 is also interesting in this context.
How could a man have written this without the help of God? It would have been impossible.

Jesus Christ
Just as nobody could have written the history of Israel in advance, nobody could have invented Christ. The nature of his life is proof that he really existed!

The first men and women to be followers of Christ were, by in large, persecuted because of their beliefs. These are the very people who would have invented Christ had he been invented. Why would they have invented something that lead to their persecution? Not even the leaders of the early Church escaped: in fact they suffered most. Among other torments Paul was lashed at least 5 times, beaten three times and even stoned once. (2 Corinthians 11:24-25). Why would Paul have allowed himself to suffer so much because of his preaching if Christ had been invented? Far from being deluded himself it is usually Paul that is accused of inventing Christ.

The early followers of Christ did lead non-violent lifestyles, as Christ commanded (see Matthew 5:39), which would hardly have been a sensible thing to do in the brutal Roman Empire. The Apostles would not have invented the story of Christ's resurrection because they suffered for it and would have known that they would have suffered for it.

The only reasonable explanation is that Christ really did exist.
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 54
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/6/2012 10:30:19 AM

The Bible is a remarkable collection of books. It contains huge amounts of evidence that it was written under inspiration by God. Here are just two brief examples.

It is a remarkable collection of books, that have been translated and interpreted many times over.

Yet they contain no evidence that any of it is real, as they are only books and nothing more.

The first men and women to be followers of Christ were, by in large, persecuted because of their beliefs. These are the very people who would have invented Christ had he been invented. Why would they have invented something that lead to their persecution?

Christianity was invented at the council of Nicaea in the 3rd century AD by emperor Constantine.

He took parts of Judaism, Paganism, Greek mythology, Egyptian Saturn worship and others all spliced together to make up Christianity.

Then he did what all good Christians do, killed and or destroyed any evidence of those other religions.

Failure to understand this is just that, a failure to understand.
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 55
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/8/2012 8:51:08 AM
The diaglott is the original in greek.

The true first christians did not believe in constantines beliefs. & it was foretold that a great apostacy would happen, & was already starting. It also says that they would be turned to fables & delusions,
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 56
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/25/2012 1:19:05 PM
A lot of churches do not teach very much about the old testament saying that it is ancient times, just stories, but if you know what is behind all of those feasts & festivals that the jews have kept down through the ages from "ancient" times, they were a foreshadowing of their messiah, who was to come as a lamb, & be crucified at the exact timing that the jews were to have their passover. The high priest would select the most perfect lamb to be sacrificed, would bring it into Jerusalem, as everyone was saying Hosana, (just like they did with Jesus), then for 4 days the lamb would be checked over for any flaws, just like they did with Jesus, then that most perfect lamb would be sacrificed (just like Jesus). And when Jesus said "It is finished". So would the High Priest be doing the same. So this is why the bible runs like a ribbon from one end to the other. If people are interested enough to find out they will, if not, well, that's up to every individual.
But, if you do go to any church, & you're not sure what you're hearing is right, don't ever let them tell you that you are not educated. This is what the pharisees did, & that is why Jesus rebuked them, & talked to them the way He did & frustated them & got right in their faces, like big time.
& they said "what did he know" Most of their laws were man made laws, just like alot of them are today, But this is the time of the gentiles. & we are almost at the end of the time of the gentiles.
By the way one of God's names is Yhwh, meaning "I will be who I will be", & Jesus' real name is Yeshua meaning, He who will deliver, taken from Yah & shua.
& I don't have a PhD. lol. I just want to know about the bible, so I started searching & asking. & I'm still learning.
Joined: 4/10/2008
Msg: 57
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/25/2012 1:45:42 PM
wow how convenient for them to time everything having to do with Jesus to try to fit into the timing of the Torah. Not a genious idea since they already had the map planned out in front of them.
The Passover had nothing to do with a person., or a part of the Trinity, dying on a cross to save the world from sin.
on a deeper lever. the Passover is about our personal freedom from within. that is why we still go thorugh the ritual today.

Suusie do you think that Jesus was a Christian? if we take the bible story as History, Jesus was a Jew,...he was probaby changing around some of the man made laws of the rabbis, he was a bit rebellious of a Jew. Maybe he would have started the reform movement if so many people did not believe he was slain for their sins. God showed us early on in the Torah, or your OLD testament...that He is against human sacrafice.
when a lamb is checked for is the lambs physical body that is checked.
did Jesus have no scars, cuts or bruises on his body? after all the torture Jesus went through,...he would have had to have bruises on his body and would have never been acceptable as a pure body to slaughter....(IF>> they even considered to slaughter a human being for our sins). His body was NOT a perfect body.

and hanging on a cross was not a legal rabbinical way to slaughter a sacraficial animal anyway. that was a drawn out death and would have left the animal considered un kosher. But we are speaking of a human being Jesus....where does it say that we must kill a human to be covered by his blood to atone for our sins?

and where does it say that this human sacrafice has to be born from a virgin, and how does anyone know whether or not Mary was a virgin?
maybe some assume that the Hebrew word for young girl means virgin...but there is a different Hebrew word for virgin. so if God wanted to be sure we knew that there had to be a virgin birth why wouldnt the writers of the Torah use the proper word. why did they instead us the word a Young Woman will concieve. instead of Virgin?
Joined: 4/10/2008
Msg: 58
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/25/2012 2:05:16 PM
one thing the church does or did wrong is to not use the original translations properly. And choose to change things to fit into their own plans.
How did they ever get Gods permission to change the day of rest from Sabbath to Sunday.
they didnt.
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 59
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/28/2012 1:50:12 PM
Gen. 49:10 - blessing for Judah, reference to messiah.
Hebrews 9 & 10 - all of it, explains about the testament, the slaughter of animals,& how those sacrificial animals in the Mosaic system could never take away sins.
Writers of old & new testament were jews
Deut. 18:15 - The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
The shedding of blood was typical of more than death: it was typical of a violent manner of death: for in natural death the blood is not shed, .. Death
had a double hold upon those for whom the messiah was to die... their being from one who was condemned to death beacuase of sin & their own numerous offences

... Christ came under both curses, & discharged them both by the shedding of his blood. He came under the first in being born of a woman. He came under
the 2nd in the act of crucifixion. His hanging on a tree brought on him the curse of the Law, from which he could only be delivered by death. The resurrection that followed was the Father's interference on behalf of His holy One, whose very condemnation by the Law was the result of his submission to what the Father required - his death on the cross.
The 1st covenant was not dedicated without blood. The Mosaic patterns were all purified. Blood proclaimed the infliction of death. Blood, as the symbol of
death, typically purged the death defilement. Death is always treated in the Mosaic system as a defiling thing.

yes, they had the map. & Jesus was a jew, so were the writers of the old & new testament. So were most of the first "christians". They were jews, under the
law. His body was not perfect, it was sinful, born of a woman, his character was perfect. His sinful body was destroyed. by both jew & gentile rulers. He
could not be held in the grave, because he did not sin. If you read my history, it will show why I believe that hell is the grave, soul is the life, there
is no trinity, deut.6:4, Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. & many more., the kingdom of God is the kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom of
Israel, to be on the earth, not in heaven, but of heaven. where does it tell you we go to heaven. where does it say we have an immortal soul. It says the
soul dies, the spirit is breath, life, that jesus was the son of God, born of a woman, (seed of the woman) Gen 3:1who would overcome.thou (shalt bruise thy
head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.), that the devil means false accuser, liar, that demons, evil spirits are sicknesses, false gods, that the Holy Spirit
is the power of God.
The teachings of the trinity, heaven going, devils, going to hell, pergatory (a money making scheme) immortal soul, praying to Mary, all come from the origin teachings of Nimrod back in Genesis. Not the old testament teachings of Moses & the prophets.

Messiah is a Hebrew word taken right out of the Old Testament. It means "anointed" which in Greek is kristos, our English word, Christ.
The word Messiah stood for the Promised One, the Coming King, the one "whose right it is" (see Ezekiel 21:25-27).
The Old Testament foretold that Messiah would be a Jew, born in Bethlehem in the royal line of David the king, of the tribe of Judah. These are clear and
detailed prophecies.

"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou (David) shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and
I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever." (2 Samuel 7:12,13)

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel:
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)

These are promises of an illustrious son of David who would be born in Bethlehem. Solomon was the immediate successor - son of David, but he was not born in
Bethlehem. He certainly built a temple for God, but his throne was not established for ever. Moreover, Micah's prophecy, about Messiah being born in
Bethlehem, was written some two or three hundred years after the death of David. Messiah had still not come. About seven hundred years later Jesus was born
in Bethlehem a few miles from Jerusalem in the land of Judah.
The prophecies said Jesus was not only to be the son of David; he was also to be Son of God.

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14) in
strong's concordance this is "almah" which means damsel, maid or virgin. I think the offense comes from the worshipping of Mary which some churches do.

"I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (1 Chronicles 17:13)

"He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth."
(Psalm 89:26,27)

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (Psalm 2:7)

Therefore Messiah would be a descendant of David but not of a Jewish father.

Surprisingly, the very first promise (Genesis 3:15) calls the promised Deliverer: "the seed of the woman", not the seed of the man. It was God, not man, who
would provide the Redeemer: nevertheless, he would be born of a woman:

The wonderful message of the Lord Jesus Christ came as comfort and healing to the minds of the ordinary people, and they said, "He taught them as one having
authority, and not as their scribes" (Matthew 7:29). "They were astonished at his doctrine", and people of all kinds, high and low, rich and poor, sick and
well, came to him and were cradled in his words of relief, care and salvation. But this was exactly what the Old Testament prophets had foretold of him:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me: because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD." (Isaiah 61:1-2)

"The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning,
he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned." (Isaiah 50:4)

The good news Jesus brought was called "the glad tidings of the kingdom of God". He was the One who, at his second coming, would reign as king on David's
throne. Meanwhile, his message was the royal law by which his disciples were being prepared for the kingdom. His miracles were not simply embroidery of his
teaching. They were living attestations that he was Son of God as well as son of David, bringing them a foretaste of the kingdom age:

"Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with
vengeance, even God with a recompence: he will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out. and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:3-6)

The people said they believed that his words and miracles proved that Jesus was the promised Messiah:

"Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the
people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?" (Matthew 12:22,23)

Jesus the Rejected
"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed
him not." (Isaiah 53:3)

"Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth ..." (Isaiah 49:7)

"I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting." (Isaiah 50:6)

"Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee. Reproach hath broken my heart: and I am full of
heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none." (Psalm 69:19,20)

Jesus the Crucified

"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me." (Psalm 22:16,17)

Even the sharing of his clothes - which the New Testament describes as having been carried out by the soldiers - is clearly described:

"They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture." (Psalm 22:18)

The mockery, scorn and biting derision of his enemies, and Christ's uncomplaining submission were prophesied:

"But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head." (Psalm 22:6,7)

"He was oppressed. and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

Jesus the Redeemer
The suffering and shame of Christ were full of redemptive purpose. He suffered for our forgiveness and salvation. The Old Testament words could not be clearer:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs. and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our
transgressions. he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have
gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:4-6)

These things were not amazing coincidences or chance happenings; they were part of the Great Plan of God. In Luke 1, that word, "word" means logos, or plan
& purpose of God.

Christ is Risen
Of course, it might be said of some of the evidence so far outlined, that Jesus simply set about to act out the sayings of the Old Testament and thereby
claim to be Messiah. In other words, that Jesus engineered his life to make it seem like the fulfilment of prophecy. To argue in this way is a policy of desperation. Not only has it a very hollow ring, but it does not explain the miracles Christ performed. More than that, such a theory does not account for
his rejection and crucifixion which at the very least would then require the connivance of those who rejected him and the cooperation of the soldiers who crucified him.

This is a most unlikely possibility. In any case, such an argument collapses completely in the light of his resurrection from the dead. This miracle was entirely out of his hands and, moreover, was not expected by his disciples.

His resurrection - the final miracle which crowned everything that had gone before - came to them as a joyful surprise. And it too was foretold in the Old Testament:

"Therefore I will look unto the LORD: I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me. Rejoice not against me, 0 mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness. the LORD shall be a light unto me. (Micah 7:7,8)

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell(hell means grave): neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." (Psalm 16:10,11)

The words "soul" and "hell" are the usual Hebrew words for 'a person' and 'the grave'. Not only was Messiah to be raised from the dead, his body would not be contaminated by corruption during the time he was in the grave!

This evidence from the Psalms forms the cornerstone of the preaching of the apostles. It could not apply to anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Speaking
of the about words from Psalm 16, as quoted above, the apostle Peter on Pentecost day said:

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses." (Acts 2:29-32)

The Ascension
After forty days or so, the risen Christ ascended to heaven. Yes, you may have guessed it: this too was made known long ago in the Old Testament. How could o wonderful an event be foretold? It was so unusual. Yet, this is what the scripture said:

"Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. (Psalm 16:11)

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." (Psalm 110:1)

This was the crowning glory of the evidence. It completes the Old Testament trail that led to Jesus of Nazareth. It both sealed the certainty that Jesus was Son of God and it proved the Old Testament scripture to be the totally reliable word of God. That Jesus had ascended to heaven and was seated at God's right hand: that was the final evidence that Christ was Messiah.

There is one further piece to the story: an intriguing and altogether fitting burst of promise and light. Jesus Christ is coming back to earth to reign as
King. This too is all in the Old Testament:

"Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." (Psalm 16:11)

This we have read; but there is an added promise in the other verse we quoted: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
enemies thy footstool." The Psalmist goes on to say:

The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." (Psalm 110:2)

Prophecy Fulfilled in our Day
The Old Testament is still being fulfilled. One of the greatest wonders of the twentieth century has been the return of the Jews to the land from which they were scattered, over nineteen hundred years ago. And the Bible said they would!

"Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock." (Jeremiah 31:10)

"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return
to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it." (Jeremiah 30:3)

Those prophecies are as clear and unambiguous as those about Christ. We all are witnesses to their truth. Everyone knows about the Jews as a nation in their
own land. The Bible foretold it and God has fulfilled it. Therefore, it is absolutely certain that Christ will come back to be King on earth. Look at what
the Old Testament has promised:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The
mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and
upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform
this." (Isaiah 9:6,7)
Joined: 4/10/2008
Msg: 60
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 2/28/2012 11:02:07 PM
thanks Suusie i will look up the scriptures.
there are, however, other interpretations of the ones that you gave.
Joined: 1/9/2012
Msg: 61
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 3/2/2012 2:31:07 PM
If I judged the church universal by some of the members I'd leave, too. But that is true of an institution that has fallible man in its membership.
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 62
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 3/8/2012 7:43:32 PM
Of course if I judged the government/school system/college sports by some of their members I'd have nothing to do with them either........
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 63
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 3/8/2012 7:57:18 PM
Its maybe a misdirection to ask what the "church" is doing wrong", a better (and more responsive) focal point would be what are Christians doing wrong?

Mostly lending themselves to vain and foolish goals, arguing philosophy rather than showing charity, wasting time on POF instead of pursuing the Kingdom.........

The institution really does reflect its members, hard to support something your unwilling to put effort into.....

mea culpa
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 64
view profile
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 3/11/2012 12:20:12 PM
What is the church doing wrong?

For one it is living in the 13Th century.
It has covered up numerous cases of child abuse.
It has intruded way too far into secular society,IE say what you want, believe what you want, but keep it in church,synagogue,mosque etc.

I was raised a roman catholic, and then began to question a lot of church doctrine on contraception,homosexuality and the idea that if you dont worship god your going to hell for eternal suffering, but he loves you.So I am an agnostic I have no idea if there is a god or their is not. I do admire the stories of Jesus such as ministering to the poor,defending the prostitute, and defending the weak and helpless. I also admire the Dali llama,Thomas Jefferson and Martin Luther king to name a few so take what you will out of that.My belief is believe in any god or gods or none at all, just do not push your religion on me I dont go around pushing agnosticism on others and expect the same courtesy. edit.. One of the min reasons is with all the wars,suffering,starvation if thier is a god why wouldn't he do something about it?The standard answer , its gods will doesnt cut it with me.
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 65
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 3/21/2012 8:16:05 PM
The church should be living in the first century, & should have the same doctrines as the first. Also this doctrine should agree with what is written in the old testament. Just because you are born into a specific religion does'nt make it right. God does have a plan. It's all there, in the bible, but you have to question everything you come across, & not believe man only. Religion is a big money making scheme, & it should not be.
Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 66
What is the Church doing wrong?
Posted: 6/20/2012 1:20:39 PM
Thought this might interest you....

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Mark 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Luke 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

"There is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:5,6).

For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another" (Romans 12:4,5).

Things started to change in the church (ecclesia- greek for group of believers whereas church implies a building) in the 1st century. The original church was of one mind, not like the churches of today. It was foretold that an apostasy was already starting within the body of believers & that the people would heap to themselves "teachers having itching ears" who would preach smooth things to them. Once the gospel was written, now that is what we have.
the holy scriptures . . . "are able to instruct you to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Timothy 3:15).

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

Then He [Jesus] will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat...sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me..."
Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?"
Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me."
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
(Matthew 25:43-46)

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:27)

Another distinction between clergy and laymen in many churches today is that the clergy receive payment for their work. In the first century, those involved in the spiritual welfare of the community were entitled in principle to material or financial support. The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians about this. He said: "Do we not have the right to our food and drink? The Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:4-14). Nevertheless, Paul recognised the possibility of corruption entering into the community through this provision, and declared about himself: "I have made no use of any of these rights in my preaching I make the gospel free of charge . . . I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings" (verses 15-23).

Tithing - Funny how the churches will take certain things from the old testament when it suits them.

Most New Testament discussion promotes giving and does not mention tithing. 2Corinthians 9:7 talks about giving cheerfully, 2Corinthians 8:12 encourages giving what you can afford, 1Corinthians 16:1-2 discusses giving weekly (although this is a saved amount for Jerusalem), 1Timothy 5:17-18 exhorts supporting the financial needs of Christian workers, Acts 11:29 promotes feeding the hungry wherever they may be and James 1:27 states that pure religion is to help widows and orphans.

Jesus said through his prophet, “Ho, everyone that thirsts, come you to the waters, and he that has no money; come you, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.” (Isaiah 55:1 KJ2000) Jesus tells us to buy from him without money.
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